What I look for in evaluating a potential wife

Moving along the lines of what Donalgraeme is looking for in evaluating potential wife prospects, this is how I do it. You’ll probably notice many similarities, although we have some preference differences depending on our missions in life.

His big 4 list was:

  • Chastity/Sexual History
  • Age
  • Attractiveness
  • Religious Devotion

Some other factors for consideration are femininity, temperament, personality type, cooking, cleaning, mothering, submissiveness, intelligence/curiosity, earning capacity, initiative/entrepreneurial spirit, etc.

The main underlying theme is how she will be a helpmeet in his life.

I am looking for the same thing in regard to a helpmeet to assist me in my mission in life, though I hold some things more important than others. Personally, I used to have 10+ point list, but as I’ve grown over the past year I’ve parsed it down into 6 major categories that I look for when evaluating a woman.

  1. Evidence of a relationship with God — daily Scripture, prayer, meditation, and service in the Church or community. A heart that is seeking after God and is fruitful in it with her actions.
  2. Evidence of cultivated godly femininity — long hair, dresses modest, wears dresses and skirts, smiles often, enthusiastic, kind, gentle, humble, preferably knows how to keep a home and cook, etc.
  3. Evidence of chastity in attitude and deed — Christian men and women are called to this prior to marriage, and I’m uninterested in having to deal with the drama that surrounds a woman that has had previous intimacy with other men. I’d readily consider a low N-count woman who has shown though her actions and attitude that she has repented (and not just feels bad about what she did) over a virgin Christian woman who has done everything but sex.
  4. Evidence of attraction/chemistry — I work in the medical and fitness industries, and it is important for me to have a wife who is a good ambassador for Christ in how she looks. I’ve dated women before who don’t care about good nutrition and exercise, and it never ends well because this is an integral part of my life. A woman who strives to be attractive even though it takes work is going to be a better ambassador for Christ than one who gives in to sloth and gluttony. This goes both ways as my potential wife should be attracted to me too.
  5. Evidence of a willingness for family prioritization — God willing I hope to have many children (3-5+) and am looking to home school them. I don’t care if my wife has a career, but she should be willing to lay it aside for her family. Age is not a primarily consideration for me, but since I want to have many children younger is better.
  6. Evidence of submissiveness, especially to God  — This pretty much sums up a Biblical marriage in that it encompasses the 3 major roles that a wife is called to: a helpmeet, with submission, and with respect. I tell women that my God given mission will put me in uncomfortable discussions and challenges, and if she’s coming along with me then it will be more of the same. If you’re not growing in your heart, mind, soul, and strength for Christ then what are you doing?

The reason why I started off each of the categories above with “evidence” is because I can’t mind read, so all I have to go off of from women is what they do in their actions. Words are essentially meaningless with women. It’s all about what they do that matters. Thus, evidence of their good fruits or bad fruits is important to look for in their lives. Discernment is important.

There’s other minor points of consideration that may be folded into a lot of these above points, but this encompasses the vast majority of what I’m looking for in a potential wife.

All of the above points are areas that godly Christian women should be striving for anyway. The fact that there are not many women who want to walk in the above areas is disheartening but such is the society we live in. I can only pray that God can change the hearts and minds of those who are willing to seek Him.

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62 Responses to What I look for in evaluating a potential wife

  1. donalgraeme says:

    Your points 2, 5 and 6 are good ones that I agree with as well. I didn’t include them in my “Big 4” because they are ones that are mutable; a woman can change herself there. They are still important to me though.

  2. @ Donal

    Yeah, makes sense. I didn’t separate my list for things that are changable or not.

    In fact everything on my list is changable in some way or another, although there are considerations that are not changable such as past promiscuity. But present behavior and action is still important.

  3. donalgraeme says:

    Well, to be honest only sexual history and age are something a woman has no future control over. Most things in her life she can change. And present behavior and action is certainly important, a woman who was “a great catch” five years ago might be a poor candidate presently because of her current actions or mindset.

  4. @ Donal

    Yep, you can’t change what you can’t change, so it’s bad fruit to worry about it aside from getting right with God and men.

    That’s why I went with evidence of a potential marriage prospect’s actions. Works show your faith in action.

    One must show that she is willing to grow and growing not only spiritually/soul but also emotionally/heart and physically/body.

  5. Asterix says:

    Ha! Good luck landing such a woman in church. I am at a point where I feel now that I must scream. I need somewhere to vent. I feel like Rambo from First Blood.

    In the world, I was…am desirable to women. I am rich, enterprising, educated, I work out and I look decent enough. I am outgoing. Cute girls in college and other places look at me and smile. They want to get to know me and talk to me. They show interest. I landed 6s to 8s and the odd 9.

    Yes, these were secular girls. But I’ve always kept God’s laws on fornication. I played some dangerous games of catch and release. Consequently some of my cad associates think there’s something wrong with me. I dated these girls to prove to myself I had some semblance of sexual worth after being rejected by multiple Christian women who told me I was not spiritual enough.

    Now at a singles group I seek a Christian wife (again), here is what I have found (again): 6s won’t even look at you or want to talk to you. I have never experienced this much resistance to being told, “hello,” These harlot princesses practically demand to be worshipped, and I will certainly not give them the satisfaction. To be sure, I swim in the attention of 4s and 5s, but seriously?

    Why don’t I just go back into the world and build some hedonistic alpha value by throwing a party at my resort penthouse complete with a DJ and lots of booze and invite strippers and lingerie models and other assortments of indecent women, as well as all my cad friends who think I am a bible thumping fool? It’s like being an eunuch is the new cross to bear in this age, rather than selling all your possessions. What in the flying ****. I knew I hated church for more than all those flamboyant straight-fag leaders who teach emotional, effeminate garbage. A day of reckoning is coming to these churchians, and good riddance!

  6. @ Asterix

    It’s ironic but deti’s assessment that many Christian women are looking for a man with George Clooney’s charm, the president’s status, Brad Pitt’s looks, and Billy Graham’s spirituality (or however he put it) is not that far from the truth in some ways.

    Now, I’m not saying to necessarily switch churches if your church is a one that is good — one that focuses on Biblical masculinity and outreach — but you may need to look elsewhere for potential spouses. I know God has called me to be in my church at the moment even though there’s not any prospects that fit with my mission.

    If your church is teaching what you are saying above I would get out immediately and find a different one. Pray to God to see which one He wants you to be at. If the church leadership has gone astray it only contributes to the sense of entitlement in women, and it is unlikely that you will be able to find a wife there who is willing to change when she’s being told she’s good all of the time.

    Continue to meditate on the joy and peace of the Lord in these dark times.

  7. donalgraeme says:

    Asterix, I know something of how you feel. Its maddening to be able to attract good-looking women, but not a woman worthy of being your wife. And then you have to cross the bridge of getting her interested in you. Its madness, all of it.

  8. I was doing a little surfing around the anti-feminist blogs. Yikes! Either the whole darn bunch of you hate women or are terrified of those of us who find men who want submissive women to be potential abusers, and just plain silly, shallow, superficial, and impotent. I know you want modesty in a woman, but that’s because you are absolutely terrified of your normal sexual urges when it comes to women. How sad. How repressed. How utterly hilarious. I bet you don’t even know that when the early Christians were baptized, it was co-ed and they were baptized in the nude! So much for Biblical modesty. Ever read up on the women of the Bible: Sarah, Hannah, Mariam, Martha, Mary, Esther, Ruth, Deborah….? They were far from submissive. Deborah was even a judge. We’re not talking about women who submitted to men, and were told what to do.

    If you are looking for a wife, you might want to raise your expectations, don’t tell her how to dress, don’t expect her to worship you instead of Christ, and treat her like an equal. Women, normal women- normal Christian women, don’t really like men who are so insecure that they reek of abject hatred of women. Guess what? The very first individuals the Risen Christ appeared to were WOMEN, not men. When the men ran away, like a bunch of cowards, the women stayed at the base of the Cross, until the bitter end. Men – well, they turned tail and rain. Christ treated women as equals. He did not demand they submit, that was Paul, and there are some who think he did not right that specific passage.

    Oh, and your little worship of what Paul told women to wear – well, he basically copied the edicts of Augustus Caesar on what Roman women should be wearing – verbatim. (That means he almost plagiarized it). Paul treated women as equals. Golly gee! Ancient art from the Catacombs of Rome show WOMEN as priests. Geez – who knew?

    When Christ visited Martha’s home, and she became pissed with her sister, Mary, for sitting at his feat – they did not have chairs, they sat on cushions, so she was sitting as his equal, well, Martha was angry. Women in the post-Helenic Hebrew world were not allowed to even speak to men. Christ not only told Martha to take a chill pill, but told her to join her sister, where they were literally liberated and given the same social status, and religious status as men.

    It truly is sad the way men have allowed themselves to be brainwashed when it comes to women who consider themselves normal feminists. We’re not evil. We don’t hate you. Fact is, most of us love guys. We just don’t like men who are nothing but potential tin plated dictators with delusions of grandeur. You might want to try growing up a little, and maybe visiting a less repressive church – maybe one that isn’t involved in patriarchal, submission, and Christian Reconstructionism, which is based on pure heresy.

    “Since women are emotional creatures…”? You really don’t know any women, do you. Women are far from emotional. You think a woman is going to be led by a sad little man who is so afraid of the opposite sex that he’s going to go out and find some 15 year old girl and basically browbeat her into being his helpmeet? This is the year 2014. In order to find someone like that you’d need to travel back in time – I suggest sling-shot around the sun with the proper warp fields protected with heavy shielding – but, you’re only going to find women like that during the Renaissance and the Hellenic Period, when women were just what you want them to be, today – absolutely nothing. They were expected to sit down, shut up, and do as they were told.

    Good luck. You’re going to need it.

  9. @ SJ Reidhead

    Thank you for your comment.

    However, I would suggest that next time if you attempt to convert “backwards” people like me that you do it without ad hominem attacks and shaming language. That’s distinctly not in step with the fruits of the Spirit, plus it tends to not go over that well on most blogs.

    Many of your points question what is in the Bible. If we can’t trust the Scriptures as God’s Word then what can we trust? I certainly wouldn’t want to take cues from modern society with its divorce rate of 50% and other problems among Christians over the Scriptures.

    God bless!

  10. @Deep Strength:

    Congrats on the first Troll! It’s always fun.

    @SJ Reidhead:

    Most people take the trap and argue the “points”, but being we’re quite a bit wiser around here, this is the proper response:

    Repent for the Day of the Lord is near and you *will* be cast aside. Your are lost, foolish and the Fruits of the Spirit are void with you. Repent and cry out for forgiven to Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

  11. @Asterix:

    Welcome around. I haven’t seen you around before, so I’ll assume you’re legitimate (we can get some pretty convincing trolls in these parts, so it’s not personal). A little cold, to most people, but you’ve got to “test the spirits” with this type of discussion.

    I’ll start with saying probably something you’ve never really heard from anyone else: it’s a credit to you, and your Soul, to have not fornicated. That is a blessing a lot of guys that go through any part of this Sphere of the web don’t have. You’ve saved yourself more problems than you really understand, even aside from the practical ones. (You don’t know how many times I’ve made comments to people about the “Don’t put your c*** in crazy”, so it’s a pretty common theme.)

    Now, while your name is a wonderful & classic French comic character, I’m going to assume you’re somewhere in the boarder South to Midwest region. Which would explain the EAP problem. (EAP = Entitled/Evangelical American Princess) This is actually where I would suggest Church scouting and hopping. Granted, even the best run Churches left in the country still have a lot of problems in the Singles Ministry area, so it’s not an assurance by any means, but finding a “more solid Church” is probably the first key. The leadership really needs to have it’s head out of its ass, firstly.

    If you’re near any colleges, it’s probably the College pastor, as part of a larger church, that you want to get to know. Even if they don’t truly understand how everything works, they at least (should) know much more of the lay of the land than anyone not in the midst of it all. Your target range is 20-23, as a general measure.

    While you needed to vent, one thing to remember: you want to “take a wife”, not “find a wife”. A “Wife” is optional to the Christian Walk, but it’s a very common blessing. Putting the terminology properly focuses the mind on the optional aspect. It’s pretty much like making any optional purchase: if you “want” to a buy a new car, you’re going to be very picky; if you “need” a new car, you’re going to be far less picky and worry more about just your budget. Misplaced Priorities does pretty much everyone in. Remember that and it’ll serve you well.

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  13. Bobbye says:

    I hope you read this in the Spirit in which it is meant.
    Christian: Hello God. I would like to place an order for a wife, please.
    God: I don’t take orders.
    Christian: What?
    God: I don’t take orders. I sometimes give orders, but I don’t take orders.
    Christian: I don’t think you understand me.
    God: You really said that to me?
    Christian: Ok. I would like to request that my LORD bestow on me the blessing of a wife.
    God: Really?
    Christian: Yes,really.
    God: Any wife? Your willing to trust me to select one for you?
    Christian: Yes LORD, I trust you.
    God: You ever hear of Hosea?
    Christian: Yes
    God: I told him to marry a slut. After all, I the LORD was married to the slut Israel. Are you good
    with that?
    Christian: I’d rather not
    God: You think you’re too good to marry a slut? Are you better than Me?
    Christian: My LORD, I changed my mind. Can you bestow on me instead the blessing of the gift of
    God: We’ll see.

  14. @ Bobbye

    I agree.

    Although as far as I can tell, there’s very few people whose wives were chosen for them by God in the Bible. That said there’s definitely a balance between discernment and pickiness that needs to be had. I attempted to explore this in my latest post:


  15. Brown says:

    Hi “Deep Strength”

    SJReidhead wasn’t a “Troll” & neither am I. It was really a wonderful comment. I hope you take it to heart & see that you have brainwashed yourself by participating in the “Manosphere.”

    Oh, and BTW, your Goddess Sunshine Mary is quite the Devious Liar: one of her secrets is out – she only has two children IRL. There is a long history of drug use, mental & emotional instability going on there.

  16. @ Brown

    Thanks for your comment.

    If you would like to substantiate your points as I asked SJ to then I would be more than willing to consider. Namely, two questions:

    1. If I can’t trust the Bible as a Christian then what can I trust?
    2. Why should I consider feminism when when I can see that all of the statistics point to an increase in divorces among Christians, decrease in church attendance and service to the poor, decrease in happiness among all women, etc. as women have become more equal?

    Also, on SSM — God uses sinners all the time because we are all sinners. If you as a Christian see that she is misguided and sinning perhaps you should pray for her instead of insult her?

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  19. k8 says:

    This is going to sound really stupid because I’m still working through it and I don’t actually know what I’m talking about. Please be patient with me.

    I was reading through the angry woman’s comment earlier and I agree with her that Paul’s words have no authority behind them. He’s not even an apostle, since there are 12 for the 12 tribes of Israel and Mattias replaced Judas Iscariot. If I were to obey his commands simply because he was filled with the Holy Spirit, I would have to obey the commands of most people I know at Church. There are a lot of instances where Paul contradicts the apostles and Jesus himself, which is why I don’t trust him to know what’s best for the flock. I do think that Christians need to submit to each other, because we are called to serve each other , but not in the way that we would submit to God. After all, God is the only one you can trust never to lead you astray because he knows everything. I don’t know if I could ever trust a man to lead me the way I trust God to lead me. We’re all lost and blind, and I don’t see how trusting someone who is equally lost and blind to lead the way is going to do any good. In fact, Jesus tells everybody to follow him, and only him because he is the only way to salvation.

  20. @ k8

    Same questions I posed to them which they couldn’t answer.

    1. Submission of wives to husbands is also in Genesis 2 (helpmeet) and 3 (desire to husband and rule over her), and 1 Peter 3. Even if you throw out all of Paul’s letters to the church your reasoning fails because Peter was the disciple upon who Jesus built His church.

    2. The submit to one another passage (in reference to the church) is also in Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians. How come you’re not throwing that out, but you’re throwing out the married prescriptions?

    3. If I can’t trust the Scriptures what do I trust? You just throw out half of the New Testament?

    The simple fact is that most Christians don’t want to accept everything that is in the Bible because they are brought up in a society that demonizes Christianity. If I’m a Christian I’m going to follow the Scriptures because that’s God’s Word to us.

    I pray that you ask God to help you with your fear of following His commands in Scripture. You should check out my post on “fear the final frontier.”

  21. @k8:

    I think you’re around 1900 years late on arguing with Paul. Though the main problem with your argument (aside from the problems when you attempt to Cherry Pick the Bible) is that you have to throw Moses, all of the Patriarchs and all of the Prophets out as well. It all works together and is very important.

    You’re also left in the place of rejecting the Holy Spirit outright, as that’s what the “Inspired Word” is. The Bible, to a Christian, isn’t the words on the paper; it’s the Word of God as it speaks. So the question is: to Whom to you Listen?

  22. Bobbye says:

    @k8: Your instincts are good. The Scripture nor God says that you are to be ‘lead’ by your husband or by your father, before marriage, while living in his house. You should only allow God to’ lead ‘you. But the Scripture and God say that you should submit to your husband and to your father before marriage. Your submitting to a husband or father presupposes that you are submitted to God. If you are not submitted to God, none of the other matters. Submission does not mean,”shut up and do what you are told”. I know some people come off as if it means that. Submit means to subordinate yourself, or place yourself under/lower than another. Another way to think of it is to esteem others more highly or better than yourself (Phil2:3) which is what Jesus did when He washed feet.In this way an elder of the church can submit to a child, a father can submit to a son, a Pastor can submit to his congregation,ect. The Church is an upside down community when compared to ‘the world’, in which the servant of all is the highest in the Kingdom of God.

  23. @ Bobbye

    This argument never made any sense to me.

    What are the husband’s duties, if not to “lead” his wife?

    What exactly is submission/authority in context?

    How exactly do you make the decisions and have responsibility for them, if not to lead?

  24. k8 says:

    @ DS here are my answers to your questions.

    1. Submission of wives to husbands is also in Genesis 2 (helpmeet) and 3 (desire to husband and rule over her), and 1 Peter 3. Even if you throw out all of Paul’s letters to the church your reasoning fails because Peter was the disciple upon who Jesus built His church.

    – Genesis 2 is a punishment so I assumed God would take care of that one without my doing anything. Also, I thought Jesus did away with that one since he absolves us of original sin and the punishment for it. I do believe that a woman should be in the supporting role in a relationship because that’s what we’re made to do. I think a woman’s job is to take care of her husband and to help him. I don’t helpmeet means that we have to obey every command our husbands issue like it came from the mouth of Christ himself (which is what Paul is saying isn’t it?). Also, see #3.

    2. The submit to one another passage (in reference to the church) is also in Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians. How come you’re not throwing that out, but you’re throwing out the married prescriptions? I’m not talking about submitting to one another.

    -The passage I’m referring to is Mark 10:44-45, “And whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    3. If I can’t trust the Scriptures what do I trust? You just throw out half of the New Testament?

    – I trust the words of Jesus and only Jesus because he said so. Matt. 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.” The apostles and Paul are brothers in Christ, not teachers, which is why Jesus gives the authority to bind/loose people in heaven to all Christians in Matt.18:18.

    Thank-you for taking the time to respond to me.

  25. Bobbye says:

    @ Deep Strength:What are the husband’s duties, if not to “lead” his wife?
    duty (ˈdjuːtɪ)
    n, pl -ties
    1. a task or action that a person is bound to perform for moral or legal reasonshttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/duty Lead: 1)cause (a person or animal) to go with one by holding them by the hand, a halter, a rope, etc., while moving forward.2)be in charge or command of.https://www.google.com/search?q=lead&oq=lead&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0j69i60j0l3.3155j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
    What does the Scripture say is your duty to your wife? Does it say you are the Captain and she the First Mate? I’ve never seen that. Does it say you are to put a collar on her and lead her as with a leash? I’ve never seen that. Abraham was lead by God, (he didn’t even lead himself) to leave his home and travel to a strange land. His wife Sarah went with him. Why did she go with him? Did she follow Abraham as a military duty, being his First Mate? Did she follow because she was tethered by a rope? Or did she follow because she submitted herself to her husband? Mary, espoused to Joseph, was lead by God to be chosen to conceive and bear Jesus the Son of God. God did not bother to let Joseph in on the plan until Joseph decided to ‘put away'(divorce) Mary. Joseph himself was then lead by God to take his family to safety.In what manner do you think Abraham or Joseph were the leaders of their wives? What problem do you have with your wife being lead by God? How can she be lead by God and also be lead by you? Why would you even want that situation?
    What exactly is submission/authority in context? I thought I answered that above: Jesus submitted to His disciples and washed their feet. Maybe you do not want to see that as submission.
    How exactly do you make the decisions and have responsibility for them, if not to lead?
    What decisions? Are you going to decide where she works, what car she drives, how she does her hair, what clothes she wears, the type of perfume, or shampoo, or soap she uses, what color the carpet will be, what furniture is in the house, what knick-knacks, when she gets up, when she goes to bed ect.? What responsibility? When she stands before God at the Judgement, you will not be there.
    You are trying to figure out too much, that cannot be figured out. And trying to plan too much that cannot be planned. I fear it will steal from you the peace of God and the joy of the LORD and the ability to have a contented godly marriage.
    Just to add; k8’s answer @ 12:40am was unintelligent and self serving. Since I have learned to have no expectations of anyone, I was not disappointed or surprised.

  26. @ k8

    1. The only curse that was resolved is Jesus (you will strike His heel, and He will crush your head).

    The other 5 were not resolved:

    I. Desire for her husband and husband rules over her (not resolved),
    II. serpent crawls along the ground (hasn’t changed),
    III. women have pain in childbirthing (hasn’t changed),
    IV. Man has to work the soil to eat (hasn’t changed though made easier by technology),
    V. Physical death (hasn’t changed).

    Remember, Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. The law, like the curses, was placed upon man because of sin. A fulfillment of of the law (and curses) does not render them obselete.

    2. “And whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    Serve does not mean submit. The difference is that a leader can serve those under him by facilitating things happen, providing advice, etc., but He doesn’t give up His authority. Jesus served His disciples in Word and in deed, but He didn’t give up His authority. That’s why He rebuked Satan telling Him to get behind Him when Peter told Him that He didn’t have to go up to Jerusalem to die. If Jesus was submitting to His disciples He would obey them.

    3. I definitely disagree one. Giving Christians authority (exousia) to bind and loose things is not related to the positions in the church. Why would Jesus tell Peter He was going to build the church on him? Why even go to church to listen to a pastor in the case?

    You can read about the gifts of the Holy Spirit here and the roles that they entail:


    You’re saying there’s no such thing as roles and responsibilities in the Church such as apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, pastors, etc. because Jesus made us all “brothers” in Christ?

  27. @ Bobbye

    1. Re: headship

    Ah, I somewhat have a grasp of what you are saying here. I don’t agree with the dictionary’s definition of lead though.

    The captain (husband)-first officer (wife) model does take into account the overall commander (God).

    I’m failing to see how this type of model is excluded.

    For example, to take the Mary/Joseph story we can say that the commander reached out to the first officer first and told her that she was going to bear a son. Then when Joseph was going to put her away the commander also told Him. Likewise, Abraham was following the orders of the commander.

    Similarly, all captain-first officers have a relationship where there is granted autonomy in actions to follow Christ. Headship/authority doesn’t mean you have control over everything that the person in submission does. That’s a too simplistic view of things IMO.

    In reality, I think that husbands and wives serving God will be on the same page for the husband’s mission and the wife’s role as helpmeet. The only time there will be actual “headship” in terms of the husband is going to be on decisions where the husband and wife disagree.

    I think that may be what you’re trying to get at in the end. But maybe not.

  28. Bobbye says:

    @ Deep Strength: If you were to state your definition of ‘lead’ then I might know how to address that. Having only the dictionary and the absence of “leading your wife” mentioned in Scripture I’m at a loss. I don’t understand your point of view on whatever ‘authority/power/exousia(Strongs #1849),you think you have from God. When Peter ‘healed’ the lame man(Acts 3) Peter made it clear that the healing was from God through Jesus and not any ‘virtue’ of Peter. Romans 13:1-2 makes clear that there is no authority/power/exousia except from God.Whatever authority you have from God to accomplish God’s will/delight you have because of your relationship with God as a believer. Women also partake of this same authority by receiving gifts of the Spirit. Yes a husband( not a boyfriend,not a father) is (IS, IS, not can be,IS) the head of his wife as Jesus is Head of the church. Is this Headship expressed in authority/power or in love? The Scripture says in love.
    In your answer to k8 you stated,”If Jesus was submitting to His disciples He would obey them.” Submit does not mean obey and the biblical idea of obey does not mean “do what you are told” God does not desire His people to “do what they are told” If God wanted that He would have created people like that. Of course they would not be in His image. This is important stuff and basic stuff. You enter into a covenant with God when you ‘listen attentively’ to the Word of God, and believing/being persuaded that it is true, you turn to God to escape/be saved from your condition (sin) and the consequences of sin. You are given a new heart, with the Law of God written on it, made a new creation in the spirit with a permanent connection with God through the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. As such you grow in the knowledge and wisdom of God as the things that please and delight God are the thing that please and delight you. As such, you do the will of God because it becomes your will, it becomes what you desire to do. Never fully attained in this body of flesh, you nevertheless push on toward the goal.(Hosea6:6, Matt9:13) Jesus does not want a bride who simply does what she is told to do. I often think that men in the ‘manosphere’ do tend to want a bride that will just do what she is told to do.

  29. @ Bobbye

    I think we are on the same page.

    The main issue stems from lack of definition of terms. I don’t use “lead” like it’s commonly used as my goal as I stated in many articles is to draw all men (and a potential wife) closer to God through my words and actions. That is what love is.

    That’s what I am terming “leadership” as I am setting that example for others to follow. In a basic sense of the word.

    “Leadership through love” might be a better specification. I can see how these things can be confusing.

  30. Bobbye says:

    @ Deep Strength: Why not just call things the same as the Scripture does, with an address citation to clarify? Might be easier. The greatest expository preachers do it that way.

  31. @ Bobbye



  32. k8 says:

    @ds Genesis 2 is a curse. It’s not law and if you’re going to follow it as such, why don’t you rebuke men for not growing their own food with their bare hands? Also, women for taking pain killers in childbirth.

    I don’t know if God meant for there to be roles in the Church, but I take 1 kings 13 as a pretty serious warning against following what other men of God have to say, instead of following the commands of only God.

  33. @ k8

    You’re analogy is incorrect. Anyone who wants food from the ground still has to work (till the soil). This doesn’t negate that someone people have labors where they don’t work (for example, in old times shepherds, carpenters, etc.). Likewise, the fact that women still have pain in childbirth even though they can use painkillers.

    Again, you still haven’t answered my statements on Peter. Jesus explicitly stated Peter was the rock on which his Church was built, and Peter, like Paul, stated that wives should submit to their husbands. See 1 Peter 3. The Scriptures are all consistent.

    However, this is all pointless talk to me. I don’t see the point in arguing with a Christian who doesn’t accept all of the Scriptures as the Word of God. You can just make up anything you want which seems to be the case here.

    You may continue to comment if you wish to elucidate your point of view for others.

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  35. Matt says:

    I think you should focus on what you can offer a wife, rather than what you want. Having a servant’s heart. Worrying about what you want is the best way to be disappointed.

  36. @ Matt

    Overall, the sentiment is correct. When you only focus on others you lose sight of what God has given to you to steward: yourself.

    On the other hand, thanks for the advice but 98%+ of this blog is dedicated to developing myself into an ideal spouse. And not to take away from developing yourself because it is also healthy to express ones desires too.

  37. Matt says:

    Good points. You should prepare yourself for the woman God chooses for you. Make sure you bring good things to the table. It is really not about what you want (as I’m sure you know), it is about what you can offer your future wife. That is the secret of a good marriage.

    “Submission” or “obedience” becomes irrelevant when you love each other deeply (I have been happily married for two decades).

  38. Elspeth says:

    @ Deep Strength:

    “Matt” left this comment on your blog:

    (I have been happily married for two decades).

    But left this one on mine:

    I am currently dating a 45-year old divorced woman. We will probably marry. While she may not be as “hot” as she was at 20, I am mature enough to realize there is more than that to relationships. I value her courage, her strength, her wisdom and maturity.

    I’m fairly certain it’s the same person. Make of the disparate testimonies what you will.

  39. @ Elspeth

    I try to evaluate information on its veracity and not the source. Appeal to authority and poisoning the well are opposite sides of the same coin, but they do tend to correlate with correctness yet aren’t an argument for correctness.

    Thanks for the heads up though! Seems to be the case.

  40. Looking Glass says:

    Hrmm… I wonder where this post got linked.

    As for “Matt” ‘s comment, too much platitude, not enough depth.

    Also, ” “Submission” or “obedience” becomes irrelevant when you love each other deeply” is incorrect. Especially given the word “agape” wasn’t used. It’s just classic, modern definition shifting within statements that would be accurate if the defined word was static.

  41. @ LG

    Beats me.

    But yeah, you’re right. Although “good” headship/submission may make it easier on the other spouse, they will have to choose to do their responsibilities.

  42. Looking Glass says:


    At some functional, theology in English level, Matt’s statement has some merit. At the same time, it would just be a tautology: To “love” God is to follow his Commands. But that’s never what is truly meant by the statement people make.

    Much evil is done in the name of being imprecise. And it is either utterly intentional or from the heart of a fool. But it’s hard to tell which.

  43. Elspeth says:

    Lori Alexander linked to it, in service to Deep Strength:


  44. Anonymous says:

    I found this recently through a ladies’ blog I visit from time to time. I’m a married woman with six children all quite close together, and we homeschool at my husband’s decision (and this is not an easy task which involves a great deal of work, plus I make our daughters’ clothes and my own as we cannot find much ready made that fit the standards in our family for feminine modest dress.) Also a lot of natural living, breadmaking, soapmaking, etc., things of this sort.

    One thing that has happened quite a bit in our situation is that my husband is very insistent on prompt obedience — from both myself and the children. Respectful language is a must. This is enforced. My husband does not hesitate to exercise his authority in cases of even slight disrespect or disobedience. We are sometimes granted one warning, and in my case he warns me silently or with a quiet whisper, but he promptly punishes the offender — including me. He administers corporal punishment to me just as he also administers it to our children, also other forms of punishment — although with the children it is immediate, with me he always administers in private, as it is not for the children to realize. He will give me a warning to let me know when I have crossed a line if we are in public or with the children, and I know when I get the warning that he would be taking his belt to me at first opportunity.

    So many people raise their eyebrows over something like this, even those who have no problem with the appropriate corporal discipline of children — they think he is horrible or they think I am some infantile woman. But I really have to say this is a HUGE asset to any traditional marriage, and this is from the woman’s point of view. I do not like being on the receiving end of my husband’s belt one bit, but when I am calm and rational I know how much I have benefitted from a husband who is very firm and will not hesitate to put a stop to any disobedient behavior. My disrespect usually takes the form of an occasional eye-roll or grumbling about something, as I was raised in a very proper home; I don’t swear, and I am not the type to openly challenge him verbally. But I do have the tendency to “forget” to do what I’m told sometimes. Also, interruption is considered a form of disrespect.

    Another thing that helped is that we discussed and agreed on our roles and he explained to me that as the head he needed to be able to enforce his headship when necessary. After I thought it over, I realized it made sense. I was raised to be a good student, I learned a lot of homemaking skills and how to behave properly, but I hadn’t been taught much about running a house on a good schedule. He helped me to get started on one, and while I was learning the ropes he kept a strict watch on how much I had accomplished each day; therefore, during the early months of our marriage I got his belt sometimes as many as three times a week — I got careless so many times and was disobedient about the schedule. He started right away and established himself firmly before our first child was born, and he adjusted after babies came, realizing that I couldn’t always get everything done the way it was before — but he did not allow duties to slide often. I was put back on a modified schedule very quickly after each child — after the first I didn’t want to so much, and I promptly paid for that attitude with a sore bottom.

    I have never had a problem with this, and I understand that he needs to assert his authority in our family and be the leader. Due to Original Sin I understand that I have the tendency to try to usurp, no matter how well we are raised, we still want to usurp authority and get it for ourselves. I really believe that Christian domestic discipline (as this is known in many circles) is a good option for any of those who think it will help. It tends to be dismissed or outright condemned, which it probably shouldn’t be, at least looked at with an open mind. I, for one, am very happy in my marriage and wish other wives could also be as happy. I feel sorry for so many women because they haven’t seen the true beauty of submission and obedience.

    A husband disciplining his wife could, of course, start getting inappropriate, but good husbands never allow that to happen. I hate spankings and do all I can to avoid one, but after he administers one and settles the issue once and for all, there is a sense of relief that the subject is over and he has not allowed me to usurp him.

    I hope this makes sense. Please forgive my boldness, and please accept this anonymously as I wish to remain private.

  45. Looking Glass says:

    While I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to the post, DS might want to check if they’re a regular lurker or previous poster. Just to be certain.


    Sunshine Mary was really insistent that spanking a wife really was more foreplay than punishment. That’s actually what popped to mind, more than anything else.

    Establishing boundaries, expectations and then enforcing them consistently is the key to proper discipline: in any endeavor. It would appear to have worked, quite well, in your situation. (On the assumption it’s a real person relating their experiences and not, well, a troll. Though if it was a troll, it’d be very well done.)

  46. Anonymous says:

    I am a real person, not a troll. I don’t know how someone would be able to determine, but I am very careful about protecting my identity, for many reasons. It is NOT foreplay by any means in our case, and if it were I would certainly never write about it. I don’t discuss such things in public. I am just as troubled as you by so many of the problems today, and this is one way of solving them
    (although I am the one on the receiving end).

  47. barefoot1 says:

    You really outdid yourself, sir. That was a both horrifying and hilarious troll. You gotta love spanking a sore new mother and breathing “YOU’RE OUTTA LINE” down her neck, a la Edward Cullen. As a Complimentarian, I’m troubled that some people think this behavior is appropriate. May they never know a woman.

  48. Mrs. C says:

    This is so sad and a perfect example of a woman who doesn’t know her own dignity before God. (if it’s even a real person, as claimed)

  49. No comment on the recent comment….just that I am shaking my head….takes all people to make a world….

    ….on the whole subject of submission in general, and the dearth of the said qualities, it makes me recall to mind an observation made by my father, who for years conducted a youth string orchestra and was a concertmaster — that the most difficult orchestral part to fill is that of second violin.

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  51. bear says:

    I relate very well to your frustrations. I was in a similar boat as you – three years ago. After a lack of response from any Christian woman above a 5 – I said screw it, left the church, and began dating secular women – all 7 and above. It was fun yet it came with a cost. Unlike you though I did not remain pure. Eventually the Spirit of God began to work in me – convicting me of the darkness of my ways. It was a that point I met my now current wife.I had set out to seduce her but those plans quickly changed when we began to get to know each other more. She was not a believer when I met her but she had a deep yearning for the things of God. Long story short -she eventually became saved and we got married. God has been good to me – better than I deserve. She has been a wonderful wife. We have many similar interests, desires and she genuinely desires to do right by her man. I don’t really know why I felt compelled to write this except to say : don’t give up on looking for a good one, pray daily for strength to remain pure and that God might lead you to her. Also don’t ignore a woman who is secular but may have a deep desire and yearning for the things Eternal. Just maintain strong boundaries while you interact with her.

  52. @ bear

    Thanks for the encouragement for others here.

    Personally, I don’t think missionary dating is an option. And even if a woman becomes saved, it is difficult to guide a new believer as well as have the responsibility for her if you’re interested. I’m glad that it worked out well for you, but I don’t think it would work out well for most men who read this blog at least. I’m not even sure if I’m willing to do that given the risks, but I’d have to pray about if that would be the case!

  53. donalgraeme says:

    Agreed DS. We are not to be unequally yoked. Its find to convert and then date, but not date and then seek to convert. The story of Solomon should be warning enough.

  54. Robin Munn says:

    @ k8 –

    You may never read this as it’s almost a year since you last posted on this comment thread, but when you say that you reject Paul’s authority to teach us as he wasn’t even an apostle, you’re incorrect. Look at what Peter says about Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-16: “… just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (Emphasis mine, of course).

    Notice that: “… as they do the other Scriptures.” Peter is putting Paul’s writings in the same category as the other Scriptures which are authoritative for the believer in Christ. If you accept Peter (one of Jesus’ hand-picked apostles) as having authority to teach, then you must accept Paul’s authority too, because Peter backs up Paul’s authority.

    @ donalgraeme –

    I’m pretty sure you meant to write “We are not to be unequally yoked” above, since that’s the sense of the rest of your comment. Just thought I’d clarify that, for the sake of anyone else who finds this discussion thread at a later date.

  55. donalgraeme says:

    Robin, you are correct. Thanks for catching that. DS, could you fix that when you get a chance?

  56. Given the current high divorce rate, the fact that women primarily initiate divorce, and the detrimental effects that divorce has on children, I wonder if your list should perhaps focus more on qualities that will make a woman less likely to divorce you. (Not that the things you mention aren’t important in this regard, but I wonder if you should maybe make it a more central point).

    Also, I get the sense that you’re Reformed? If so, then I assume you believe that salvation cannot be lost? Given this factor, I think that assurance of a woman’s true conversion should be a higher priority. Perhaps this is what you meant by (1), but you didn’t explicitly mention it.

    Taking these considerations into account, I think that the following list of qualities to look for in a woman may be more useful (in order of importance):

    (1) Convincing testimony of both initial conversion and continued Christian growth. This probably isn’t very romantic, but perhaps we should be looking primarily to works such as Religious Affections by Jonathan Edwards as the first step in assessing a potential wife. What could be more important in making a woman less likely to seek a divorce (and in making a woman a better wife and mother in general) than that she is truly born again?

    (2) Degree of joyful submissiveness to God. This point is, of course closely related to (1), but it is not exactly the same. For example, a truly converted Christian woman could be somewhat rebellious in her relationship to God (I believe that some feminist Christian women and female pastors are truly converted, yet I have found that many of them are uncomfortable with the language of being completely submissive to God). The more submitted to God a woman is, the less likely she will be to disobey Him by, for example, seeking a divorce because “the passion in the relationship is gone.” Also, a woman who is joyfully submitted to God will understand that there is no inherent contradiction between being submissive and being a happy and fulfilled person.

    (3) Degree of joyful submissiveness to her father. Other than submissiveness to God, this is probably the best way of assessing whether a woman will be submissive to her husband. A woman who is close to and submissive to her father is also going to be easier to evaluate in terms of her theology. This is because you can ask her father about his theology and what he taught her in order to know where she stands (it seems that good Christian women often internalize the theology of their fathers even if they can’t articulate it in a clear analytic manner).

    (4) Her father’s theology. Assessing a woman’s theological views can be difficult (especially when it comes to more complicated abstract issues). This problem can be solved by speaking to the man under whose instruction she has been for the last 18+ years. Also, if her father has good theology, then he can back you up if she ever has problems with your theology further down the line (e.g. if she is saying something to your children that you think is theologically dangerous, but that she thinks is fine).

    I think your (2), (3), (4), and (5) should go after the four things I’ve mentioned. However, this is all tentative and speculative at this point so I could be completely off in my assessment. Any thoughts on my suggestions?

  57. @ Michael

    I am going to write another post on this type of stuff soon because I’ve evolved on how I approach these things as well. Your comments are very good as well and definitely things to consider.

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  60. Mark Bowen says:

    Bro, keep doing you, but I draw the submission line at submission to God. As long as she has that, I want a wife who is as badass at challenging what others believe as possible. There’s so much crap in the world, that I want all guns firing on my side. I want every idea my family stands on to be as rigorously examined as possible, so that we can be as effective as possible in proclaiming Christ’s truth.

  61. @ Mark Bowen

    Bro, keep doing you, but I draw the submission line at submission to God. As long as she has that, I want a wife who is as badass at challenging what others believe as possible. There’s so much crap in the world, that I want all guns firing on my side. I want every idea my family stands on to be as rigorously examined as possible, so that we can be as effective as possible in proclaiming Christ’s truth.

    I think you misunderstand submission and respect. Submission and respect does not mean “being a doormat” which is a common feminist trope.

    Submission and respect also don’t have anything to do with being intellectually curious, challenging others opinions, or being able to brainstorm effectively. In fact, I would want a potential wife to be these things too.

    Respect and submission is having the right attitude and following authority/headship that God has placed in your life once they make a decision. This is Biblical.

  62. Cane Caldo says:

    @Mark Bowen

    As long as she has that, I want a wife who is as badass at challenging what others believe as possible. There’s so much crap in the world, that I want all guns firing on my side. I want every idea my family stands on to be as rigorously examined as possible, so that we can be as effective as possible in proclaiming Christ’s truth.

    This sounds reasonable because you’re operating under the assumption that a wife is just like a husband; that they both pick the targets, both fire the guns, both reload the guns, etc. That is not the case, and definitely a bad idea. She is not like a husband. She is a wife. Would you say that generals who want all guns firing on the enemy ought to move all the support staff into the war room; each second-guessing where to invade?

    Aside from this fact: A husband’s job isn’t to take on the “crap in the world”. His job is to lead his family to and for Christ. Sometimes that means fighting against the world, but most of the time it means teaching them that our sins come from our hearts.

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