Role reversal

One of the things that stood out to me in JoJ’s post on inner game: respect, is the nature of what we would call masculinity.

As you may recall, in understanding the world and the mission, we had this chart that seems to represent how God created masculinity and femininity:


The connection that I had yet to make is the notion of respect and love for the husbands and wives respectively in the Scriptures. Ephesians 5 is the oft quoted passage, so let’s take a look:

Ephesians 5 (NASB)

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she [r]respects her husband.

I’ve already discussed the nature of love and respect, but I haven’t talked about how that relates to masculinity and femininity yet. Obviously, God created men to be masculine and women to be feminine, so connecting the dots we can see that the masculine needs respect and the feminine needs love. These are what is commanded from each spouse to the other in Scripture.

Therefore, our adjusted graph with Christians on it looks like this:

christians part2

As you can see above, the masculinity is defined by respect, and the femininity is defined by love.

The title of this post is “role reversal” so let’s examine Christian nice guys and Christian women in the context of churchianity.

Christian nice guys

  • The pedestalization of women which means they place her above him. He is placing her in a position of respect. She abhors him for this.
  • Christian nice guys say they want a woman to love them for who he is. Love is something that women desire not men.
  • Want every to think good of them = want everyone to love them.
  • Validate women by giving them compliments or affirming their world view. They do it out of a false sense of love hoping they’ll reciprocate, or they have been deluded by the church to think that it is “love.”

There are more, but this proves the point.

Christian (e.g. churchian) women (deluded by feminism)

  • Think they need to have a degree and career before men will like them. They think they need to be respected by men to love them.
  • Think their accomplisments will attract men to them. Again, they think they need to be respected by men to love them.
  • Demand “equality” which is the same as demanding respect (which doesn’t work).
  • Think first about how their feelings (are hurt) in response to things that offend them. They others to respected for their feelings.

Likewise, there are more, but this proves the point.

Fitness testing and role reversal

Remember, in Christian masculinity, mindset, and fitness testing, where I discussed how validating a woman’s concerns and/or agreeing with her was tantamount to making you being another woman to her. This plays into the respect/love equation as well.

For example, take some of the most common fitness tests:

  • Did you miss me?
  • You never listen to me.
  • When was the last time you let me do X because other guys let their girlfriends do it?

The interesting thing about these questions is that they demand respect, but the intent behind it is that they are fishing for love. If a woman says “you never listen to me” she is demanding that you respect her by listening to her, but what she really wants is for you to show her love.

When you “fail” a fitness test, you agree that her concerns are valid. You are respecting her assertion that you actually don’t listen to her enough. And consequently, she absolutely will hate because she doesn’t want you to respect her but love her.

When you “pass” a fitness test like this, you do not validate her concerns for her demand of respect. By not doing this, you’re implicitly showing her that you love her because you’re in control, and someone in control is to be respected.

This is why wives who are submitted to their husbands have a reduction in the amount of fitness testing. They already respect their men, so they don’t attempt to fish for love by demanding you respect her.

This is the irony of fitness testing. When a woman attempts to make an assertion through words, it is always going to be about demanding respect or questioning her respect for you. That’s why fitness testing has non-serious answers. You can only show love through actions, or denying/accepting respect where respect is due (passing fitness tests).

The right roles and reverse fitness testing

Perhaps unironically is that the same phrases that are fitness tests from women work well as teasing/flirting from men. Take the three examples above and rephrase them from a masculine point of view:

  • Did you miss me?
  • You never listen to me.
  • When was the last time you let me do X because other girls let their boyfriends do it?

If you use these phrases in a joking/teasing/flirting manner you can gauge the amount of respect that a woman has for you.

For instance, if you say to a woman jokingly with a grin “did you miss me?” if she does respect you she will almost always smile and say yes back or she will tease you back about it. If she does not respect you then she will usually say no and start to close off her body language.

Basically, you’re jokingly demanding respect from her and if she acquiesces or teases you back about it then you know she has respect for you. If she closes herself off from you then you know that she does not respect you.


  1. Masculinity is about growing into a man that can be respected, and femininity is about growing into a woman that can be loved.
  2. Feminism is evil because it pushes men to want to be loved and feminine, and women to want to be respected and masculine. These are contrary to God’s creation.
  3. Fitness testing is about a woman wanting to be loved but demanding respect which is why they should not be taken seriously. By not taking them seriously, you implicitly show her that you are still in control which means she will feel loved.
  4. Reverse fitness testing women is a way to gauge their interest in you and start to learn how to flirt and tease them if you don’t know how to do that. Remember, that learning how to flirt and tease women is essential for a masculine man that desires a wife because that is how you will ultimately speak the truth in love to her.
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13 Responses to Role reversal

  1. Chad says:

    Makes sense. I want to be loved because of the respect I receive, and most feminine women I know would much rather be respected for the love they receive. There’s a very big difference between the two.

  2. @ Chad


    I think the hardest part for most men, especially Christian men, is they don’t really understand what is going on underneath the scenes of our interaction with women. It seems most women don’t really understand much of it either. That is precisely why body language is important. Body language conveys a lot, even if you have no idea what is going on. But we should want to know what is going on.

    However, when you truly start to get a grasp of the underlying social dynamics it becomes much easier to navigate.

    A “gamer” can train himself to recognize a fitness test and respond blindly because he wants to seduce women, but Christians should want to know why he shouldn’t be responding a certain way to what a woman says, and why he should be responding a different way. Our goal is not to attract or seduce but walk in His ways.

    Basically, if we don’t know if we are honoring God or not, then everything is for naught.

    Hosea 4:6 — My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

    We need to understand how everything affects us in terms of the spiritual, and that allows us to operate with freedom in Christ in the physical.

  3. femininebutnotfeminist says:

    There is something I still don’t understand… what EXACTLY is a fitness test? I’ve never seen it explained in a way that makes sense to me. I really should’ve asked someone this sooner.

  4. Looking Glass says:

    “Does this make my butt look big?” is probably the most classic. Next is “Let’s Do … X”.

    They’re a question or request that, on the surface, is different than the implied request via situational awareness. It’s a lie and an attempt to check how well a Man is paying attention/willing to do his own thing. It’s actually an attempt to disqualify a Man from his Humanity.

    It is Sin and it’s of the Flesh. The “Christian Nice Guy” trap is thinking Christian Woman tell the truth. There are steps to get past before you can confirm she’s telling the truth.

  5. Looking Glass says:

    And it’s not like it ever goes away, either. Great Grandmothers will lay them into young Men. They can be controlled, but they are the greatest outward appearance of the “Body of Sin” in Women.

  6. femininebutnotfeminist says:

    Thanks LG… but I can’t get a visual idea of what you’re talking about so I’m still not seeing it. As in, I don’t see how those questions are lies if the woman really does want to know the answer to them. Like, if a guy invites me to go out for a drink, but I DON’T drink. I might say “I don’t drink, but let’s do X (or “something else”) instead”. Would that somehow be looked at as a fitness test or a lie? And if so, why?

  7. ballista74 says:

    A fitness test is simply defined as anything a woman does to rebel against the authority that is placed in a man by God. You can look at this in terms of husbands and wives, but a man needs to qualify his dominance before any woman he deals with. The gamers have terms, but the way I describe it is more in terms of dominant and submissive frame, befitting the “wives submit to your husbands” command. She is to serve you as your help-meet, not the other way around.

    In other words, a husband is wise to refuse anything that puts him in position of mere servant in any way, emotionally, physically, or spiritually.

    Specific examples here:

  8. Pingback: Framework for offense and defense | Reflections on Christianity and the manosphere

  9. Ichaelma says:

    ‘A fitness test is simply defined as anything a woman does to rebel against the authority that is placed in a man by God.’ But many fitness test occur before marriage. And before marriage, the man has no authority over the woman, unless he’s in some kind of leadership capacity. The women are to respect their husbands, but they’re not commanded (at least not in the quoted Ephesians passage) to respect men who aren’t their husbands. If this is commanded somewhere else, feel free to show me.

    Of course, if a woman is interested in a man, it would be wise for her to show him that she respects him. I question though, if it’s sinful for a woman to check out the manliness of a man she’s considering investing in, though if ‘fitness tests’ involve actual lying then yes it’s a sin.

  10. @Ichaelma:

    It’s important to understand that the single most value commodity, after your stomach is full, in all human societies is the Time of a Dominant Male. A Fitness Test is based around acquiring it via deception. It’s a guttural, instinctual response from Women.

    But not every request is a Fitness Test. That’s the nasty key that Men have been lied about. Which is why “reading the context” is so important.

    Checking the “relational fitness” of a Man isn’t sinful; using Fitness Tests, which are the easiest form of manipulation available to Women, is sinful. There’s a big difference between an Honest Question and a Fitness Test.

  11. @ Ichaelma

    What LG said.

    Also, if you’re looking for a woman to marry you’re going to want one that does respect you and listen to what you say.

    If a woman is constantly testing you to try to arrest control of a relationship then it’s likely going to be a bad match because there will be a clash of wills.

  12. ballista74 says:

    The responses you’ve gotten so far are good. The problem in your assessment is that you assume a switch goes off in the man and woman once married and the slate gets wiped clean, but this is never the case. If a man doesn’t keep proper dominant frame (different than the submission/respect command, though related) and accepts a woman’s attempts to change it, he sets a precedent that goes into the marriage if one happens. This dominant frame extends into all the other people he deals with as well, including other women. The ever-present problem is that a woman will get disgusted with a man if he doesn’t show dominant frame and accepts disrespect from a woman and allows her to run his life. The marriage dynamic in those commands can not cotton a submission “race to the bottom” – in fact, a woman will immediately take the dominant position if allowed.

    This is the matter: Patterns and habits are set as to what is acceptable long before marriage happens. In this sense, the man needs to show that he is dominant, can make decisions (no “whatever you want honey” or “I don’t care you decide”), and won’t bend to her will. The woman needs to show she is capable of submitting to these minor decisions – true courtship literally is “Trial Marriage”, if you will. Both need to prove they are capable of marriage. If she can not go along with a man’s decision of what to do on a date, she definitely can not submit to a future husband when it comes to major decisions. A man needs to be aware of this and deal with any woman he considers in courtship.

  13. Pingback: Understanding the world and the mission | Reflections on Christianity and the manosphere

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