Evolving desires

There’s an interesting tendency of the human condition on the process to becoming mature

  • When you’re pretty new to activity you gobble up all of the available information. This is the sponge phase.
  • Once you get passed the sponge phase, you hit the hubris stage. You think you have it all figured out, and no one can tell you otherwise what you do and don’t know even if they more experience than you. You believe that one size fits all. Many people never leave this phase of learning because their pride is so great.
  • If you happen to make it out of the hubris stage you enter a stage of humility. You realize in fact that you don’t know everything and that you want to be committed to learning more. You start to begin to understand the nuances of particular situations and how certain things may not apply to broad spectrum situations.
  • Finally, you enter the maturity stage. You know what you know because it works. You can modify information or advice to a give person in their individual situation because you have experience. But you’re still also open to being able to learn from others and accept criticism where indicated.

You see this all the time in every area imaginable. For example,

In the area of nutrition: someone starting to get into Paleo will start to read up on everything. Once they know most everything they think there is to know, they preach Paleo and only Paleo and how it will work for everyone no exceptions. Then if they are able to move on they start to admit that there’s a lot they don’t know about human gut health and individual conditions. Then after that they have obtained enough information and experience to actually problem solve the tough cases.

In the area of training/fitness: Someone starting with a program such as Starting Strength will start to read up on everything. Once they know barbells they think they know everything there is to know about training. However, they will hit the phase where the complexity of constructing programs overwhelms them and they feel like they know nothing. After they mature, though, they are able to tailor advice to all ability levels and different situations.

Likewise, I see the same thing in the manosphere. Aside from the stages of grief model (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) there is a similar line of thought that occurs in terms of relationship to women.

Men who take “the red pill” will gobble up all of the available information and start to implement it. However, they will start to move into the hubris stage. For instance, even if you’ve moved into the “acceptance” phase of grief you may be still stuck in the hubris phase of learning. An example of this is the stubborn clinging persistance to the idea that “all women are like that” (AWALT). The fact that it is a good generalization means there are indeed exceptions, but there is a stubborn denial that anything else could be the case.

Once a man is able to mature, he is more able to appreciate the hard work and discipline that women take so that they are NAWALT just as men can overcome feminist society and churchianity in order to become masculine men.

Evolving desires

Now, the main reason I have chosen to write this post is because of evolving desires in what I look for in a wife. Previously, I had posted this list in what I look for in evaluating a potential wife, and a brief glimpse at the process of understanding that lists are just lists in the change.

Evidence of a relationship with God — daily Scripture, prayer, meditation, and service in the Church or community. A heart that is seeking after God and is fruitful in it with her actions.

Evidence of cultivated godly femininity — long hair, dresses modest, wears dresses and skirts, smiles often, enthusiastic, kind, gentle, humble, preferably knows how to keep a home and cook, etc.

Evidence of chastity in attitude and deed — Christian men and women are called to this prior to marriage, and I’m uninterested in having to deal with the drama that surrounds a woman that has had previous intimacy with other men. I’d readily consider a low N-count woman who has shown though her actions and attitude that she has repented (and not just feels bad about what she did) over a virgin Christian woman who has done everything but sex.

Evidence of attraction/chemistry — I work in the medical and fitness industries, and it is important for me to have a wife who is a good ambassador for Christ in how she looks. I’ve dated women before who don’t care about good nutrition and exercise, and it never ends well because this is an integral part of my life. A woman who strives to be attractive even though it takes work is going to be a better ambassador for Christ than one who gives in to sloth and gluttony. This goes both ways as my potential wife should be attracted to me too.

Evidence of a willingness for family prioritization — God willing I hope to have many children (3-5+) and am looking to home school them. I don’t care if my wife has a career, but she should be willing to lay it aside for her family. Age is not a primarily consideration for me, but since I want to have many children younger is better.

Evidence of submissiveness, especially to God  — This pretty much sums up a Biblical marriage in that it encompasses the 3 major roles that a wife is called to: a helpmeet, with submission, and with respect. I tell women that my God given mission will put me in uncomfortable discussions and challenges, and if she’s coming along with me then it will be more of the same. If you’re not growing in your heart, mind, soul, and strength for Christ then what are you doing?

It’s a 6 point list and honestly I can’t find anything that I would say is super wrong with it aside from what most feminists would say.

However, I can say that most of the above list would be preferences rather than requirements aside from a relationship with God and physical attraction/chemistry. God is obvious, but the lifestyle that comes with good nutrition and fitness is important because that is part of my mission. My helpmeet would need to be able to assist me in that, and if she has a similar vision in terms of business opportunities or hobbies I would be willing to help her build on that as well. We are one, and we work as one.

All of the rest — chastity, family prioritization, submissiveness to me, godly femininity — are preferred but not required. The power of God is there to change minds for those that are willing and almost everything else falls underneath of that.

For example, do I desire a SAHM like many others in the manosphere (although I didn’t note that on the list above)? No, I can’t say I do. I don’t want a woman who is committed to her career over family, but I’m also not averse to a wife who wants to work outside the home. I have a flexible job that may allow me to stay at home with children if need be, and I want to spend a lot of time with any children I have.

Do I really care about homeschooling that much that it’s a dealbreaker? No, I don’t. I think it’s generally preferable at least through the first ~7-10 years of life so as to instill godly values, but I’m not averse to putting my potential children into public school because we are called to be in the world though not of the world. (Note: ~6-7 years of age is the point by which most children develop their core personality that they carry with them for life).

Of course, that requires me to also be firm and confrontational to the children about why we disagree with many of the things taught in school. Most parents don’t take the time to teach their children aside from “because I said so” which is not a good reason. Why is chastity a good thing before marriage? You should be able to answer this question with science and logic including Scriptural support.

Likewise, is chastity a must? I would say no, but of course we should all still be aware of the risks of women with too many partners. Repentance is clearly a big factor. However, none of us are without fault in one way or another.

Do I want a pushover wife? Haha, no way. I actually tend to mesh well with a moderate amount of sassiness from a woman. I’m not looking for someone who doesn’t push back against me when I hip check her. However, I’m also not looking for a woman who will take sassiness to the extreme in that she gets upset over such things.

I suppose my point is that as I have moved passed the “hubris” stage into the humility and beyonds stages that I have admit that I have much to learn, so I need to be more open to what God can work in my life.

Of course, I can keep praying that my wife meet all of these preferences and that would be good, but the door should be open because God allows things to happen and I want to be on His side and not my own side.

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47 Responses to Evolving desires

  1. Robyn says:

    “but the door should be open because God allows things to happen and I want to be on His side and not my own side.”

    Very wise Deep Strength. In a lot of cases, we women have not “arrived” at this high level of spiritual maturity – otherwise we’d be perfectly renewed already and would have no need of a husband to walk through and help us in the process of growth and maturity … we’d already be there. And therefore would be more inclined to stay unmarried and live a life dedicated to the work of God as a vocation. For instance, a nun, like Mother Teresa.

  2. femininebutnotfeminist says:

    It behooves me to let you in on a little secret about women. When a woman truly loves a man and has a helpmeet mentality, then she will take on ANY mission the man has, and do it enthusiastically, even if she never would’ve had any interest in it on her own.

    To be frank, the reason the women you dated took no interest in joining you and learning about your mission is because they weren’t in love with you. If they had been, then they would have, plain and simple.

    It’s like us with Christ ~ we do what He wants IF we love Him. We enthusiastically take on any mission He has for us IF we love Him. Would any of us take on His missions if we didn’t love Him first? If we’re being honest, all of us will answer “no”.

  3. Robyn says:

    @ femininebutnotfeminist. For someone who is advertising themselves as a “notfeminist” — I find your comment actually, decidedly … feminist.

    Your phrasing, “because they weren’t in love with you.” Could you please clarify further your meaning of “in love with …” When I see the term ‘in-love’ it speaks to me of romanticism; not the kind of love that you use Jesus as an example of in your last paragraph. Also, “When a woman truly loves a man” A woman cannot “truly” love a man with this kind of completeness until the end of a fully enduring marriage; for it takes a lifetime of living in (day-by-day and year-by-year) married love to truly discover everything within him. If you were to know EVERYTHING about him at the onset of marriage, well, then you’d be God.

    @Deep Strength. If I have stepped on your toes on this one, sorry!

  4. femininebutnotfeminist says:

    @ robyn,

    When I said “in love with” I wasn’t talking about romanticism. It was meant as an all-around love that a wife should have for her husband, including agape, phileo, and eros. Not eros alone like hollywood endorses. And if you have to get all the way to the end of a marriage before you can love a man like this, then it isn’t love. True love isn’t based on knowing EVERYTHING about a man before you can love him, which IS a feminist way. True love is CHOOSING to love someone even though you may not know every detail about him and even though he will have some faults. And you can make the choice to love someone by the time you marry him. There’s nothing at all feminist about that.

  5. Robyn says:

    “It was meant as an all-around love that a wife should have for her husband, including agape, phileo, and eros. ”

    ok – perhaps I’m missing something here that you’ve found in God’s word; but could you site verses where God has instructed wives to be “in-love” their husbands. The only one I know of is in Titus 2:5 in which older women are instructed to train younger wives how to love (philandros) their husbands. To keep with your line of thinking – this would mean that if a wife was not “in-love” with her husband; it’s because she’s had no one train her how to do it? Also, how and why did God say “older” women? I believed it was because they could best train them because they themselves have (and are) experiencing being married for many, many years.

    Or are there other examples? I know that God specifically tells husbands to love (agape) their wives … but I’ve not seen this instruction for wives to agape their husbands?

    And is “eros” even in the Scriptures? I’ve not studied this in depth; but have read a few of C.S. Lewis’ works on Love and according to him, ‘eros’ is not actually in the original text. The phileo (love) is specifically for children NOT husbands.

  6. @ FNBF

    You and Robyn are talking past each other here.

    You’re talking about attraction which I’m not specifically addressing in this article. Attraction is important in my opinion; however, like Robyn is talking about it is not required from a Scriptural point of view.

    Likewise, there is no command for wives to love (agapao) their husbands in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are specific Scriptural commands for brothers and sisters in Christ to agapao each other, and for them to agapao their enemies and persecutors. Peripherally, it’s pretty much the same.

    If husbands or men were really supposed to be concerned about building attraction it would be there in the Scriptures…. otherwise it’s probably just best to “learn game” if a man wanted to go that route.

    Plus, I already know what you’re talking about here. No secret there. Women will do almost anything for a man they’re attracted to. So what? It’s common knowledge. However, attraction (or shall we say infatuation) does wear off. Then what?

    @ Robyn

    I would say the Song of Songs is eros love although it’s not called eros love in the OT. The NT does not talk about eros except peripherally through Paul’s exhortation on conjugal rights in 1 Cor 7.

  7. Robyn says:

    @ Deep Strength: “No secret there. Women will do almost anything for a man they’re attracted to. So what? It’s common knowledge. However, attraction (or shall we say infatuation) does wear off. Then what?”

    Nicely stated. I got the impression that infatuation is what was meant by the term ‘in-love’ … this is the romanticism to which I was referencing. Yes eros is alluded to — but not in the infatuation-‘in-love’-emotional way that most feminists believe that eros comes from ‘romance’.

    However, having been married for almost 27 years, I can tell you that infatuation does wear off. But, it comes back … wears off … and then comes back, again!

  8. Robyn says:

    @ Deep; actually there is another peripheral reference to eros. It’s in 1 cor 7:9 – better to marry than to be burning with desire of a fire inside you.

  9. femininebutnotfeminist says:

    @ DS,

    No, I wasn’t talking about attraction or infatuation. You think I’m talking about the thing girls do where they spend time doing activities that a guy she is attracted to enjoys so she can learn about him, attempt to impress him, have an excuse to spend time with him, just basically to be in his world. This is all about her, not him.

    What I’m talking about is a combination of having a helpmeet mentality and agape love for a man. When a woman has these two things, she will seek to align herself with him in every way, simply because that is what she knows she should do, just like we seek to align ourselves with Jesus and do the things He wants us to do because we love Him. This is all about him, not her.

    See the difference? And yes, attraction/infatuation fade. Also, if a woman is passionate about things relating to your mission and only does it because it’s something she likes, then she could easily put it on the back burner, say when there are a few little ones running around at home and she decides they need her attention far more than this other thing does, then what? If she’s doing it for herself rather than for you, then that’s exactly what will happen. But if she does it because she sees following/helping you with your mission as her mission, then she will continue with it for as long as you do, no matter what.

    @ Robyn,

    I clearly went back and explained what I meant by “in love with”, so don’t jump back to the romanticism stuff. If you still think that’s what I meant after I explained it clearly / corrected you, then it has become an issue of semantics. Go by the definition I gave you when determining what I meant, not your preconceived notion.

    Scripture may not specifically say that wives should agape their husbands, but it does tell us to agape each other in general. Therefore it shouldn’t even be necessary to tell wives this because if they are supposed to agape others, then obviously that would include their husbands. It’s like those silly “don’t use this hair dryer while sleeping” type of warnings on products ~ it’s so blazingly obvious that it shouldn’t even be necessary to include it. I bet the only reason it was specifically mentioned for husbands to agape their wives is because back in those days husbands were frivorcing their wives left and right for stupid things, so they needed to be told how they were actually supposed to treat them. As for older women teaching younger ones how to phileo their husbands, if younger women couldn’t learn it and apply it early on then it would’ve been pointless to tell older women to teach them. (And you are wrong about my train of thought). I was going to mention the Song of Songs being a display of eros in scripture but DS beat me to it.

  10. @ FBNF

    What I’m talking about is a combination of having a helpmeet mentality and agape love for a man. When a woman has these two things, she will seek to align herself with him in every way, simply because that is what she knows she should do, just like we seek to align ourselves with Jesus and do the things He wants us to do because we love Him. This is all about him, not her.

    Pray tell me where these types of women are because you just self selected out 99% of those who call themselves Christians (and I’m not strictly talking about churchianity).

    Aside from perhaps the SAHD movement and a very select few like yourself there are none. Even in the traditional communities parents push their daughters to go to college and have a career over marriage and children.

    I don’t put this lightly when I say that the helpmeet mentality is exceedingly rare, perhaps even more rare than the amount of Christian virgins that are left in the population. That’s really sad from a Christian perspective.

  11. Robyn says:

    @ FBNF: ok, my misunderstanding.

  12. Robyn says:

    @ DS: Also wanted to say, love the ‘hip check’ comment!

  13. @ Robyn

    I am quite fond of the hip check in real life too.

  14. femininebutnotfeminist says:

    Hmmm, I don’t know where they are. I keep learning new ways in which my views differ from most modern women, and I suppose this is another one. I was trying to help you by letting you know that there was another option you could consider to increase your chances of finding someone, but if the mentality I talked about really is that rare then I’m not really helping by talking about it. Sorry, I will bow out of this convo now.

  15. gunner451 says:

    I would recommend that you have as a hard and fast rule to avoid any and all women that have an N could higher than 0. Main reason being is that you will never ever know just how high that count is unless you have some truth serum laying around to use on her. But good luck finding that now days. The problem is that most of these gals are alpha widows by the time they’ve reached you and will always be judging you against that alpha that “got away” both in and out of bed. Been there done that and it is not fun.

    Would also recommend that you add that she must have a good relationship with her father and obeys him and has not rebelled against him (in any serious way). How a woman relates to her father is how she will eventually relate to you once the honeymoon is over. If she honors him she will honor you if she does not then run away. Also, if she does not have a father (most likely due to divorce) then run away as there are too many things broken within her that will never be fixed.

    I’m 53 and have made pretty much all the mistakes of a blue pill beta boy throughout my life and paid dearly for every single one of them and can tell you that most women can deceive you about nearly everything you have on your list (hell they even have surgery to make them like a virgin again). But what they cannot seem to do is fake a good relationship with their father, most of them wear that like a badge of honor their bad relationship. Also this is one of the 10 commandments (11 if you count Jesus last commandment) so her breaking that should be a deal breaker for you.

    I do pray that you’re successful in finding a woman worth marrying but do not compromise and do not fall into sin by fornicating. Rather focus on God and doing what He wants you to do rather than focusing on what you want out of life and you’ll be much happier in the end. Trust me on that, I really wish someone had told me that when I was young (they probably did but I wan’t listing to anything but what my little head wanted).

  16. Robyn says:

    @ gunner451: don’t laugh at my ignorance but, what is N and O?

  17. @ Robyn

    N count is number of people someone has had sex with. A N-count of 10 is a person has had sex with 10 people.

    And he said he recommended only N-count of 0 (not O) which means virgins.

  18. @ gunner451

    I definitely agree those are all good things to consider.

    This is what is termed as counting the cost (and Jesus referred to it as discipleship), but we also count the cost in terms of all life decisions. Risk mitigation is indeed a big factor.

    I will never make such a big decision based solely on feelings, but solely on Scripture and through extensive prayer.

  19. Robyn says:

    @ DS: ahhh, okkies ty. Wouldn’t it just be easier to say virgin?

  20. @ Robyn

    Yes, but when you’re talking about women today’s society it’s usually not virgin. Which is why we talk about N-count since it’s usually >= 1,

  21. Red says:

    Hey, dude! I really liked the beginning part a lot. That’s mostly what I wanted to say.

    I still think your list is unrealistic. First of all, your ideal wife dresses like a depressed hippie. 😛 Jokes aside, your list is too long. You want to get married sooner rather than later, so you need to be more open-minded. Don’t go with a sexual hypocrite, but don’t go in with a stereotype of exactly what you want. It’s like you’re controlling the outcome in your mind too much: you’ve already decided that you want one of those “Keep Her at Homes.” Well, I know women like that, and they only marry farmers and missionaries.

    You also may never find your Rachel Esther Sarah Bathsheba, but “in the essentials, unity,” and so on. Give people a margin for being human, and let people be who they are. Don’t be all Nick Lachey wig and heels about making a human being into the exact woman that you want her to be. That has the potential to really hurt someone. Plus, your life is all up to God, right?

    Finally, if you marry a good person, you don’t have to worry too much about being disrespected. It’s about respect, not about subservience. I feel like you’re having a hard time bridging what you believe to be Biblical with modern attitudes. I think the idea of submission tied more in with two people being one flesh, than it did with the woman humbly and happily making meals for her husband and never leaving the house. Is the man the head of the house? Yeah, but it better not cause division, or you’re doing it wrong.

  22. @ Red

    Simply put I don’t care about bridging the Bible with modern attitudes. Scripture is universal so there is no need to bridge anything.

    The point is I’m not naive to think I know absolutely what God’s plan is for me. That’s pride and hubris all wrapped into one. It’s quite possible that God will have me marry someone who fits everything above, but it’s possible He won’t.

  23. Red says:

    Lol, yep. It must mean something really significant, you dork. 😛

    But you made a freaking list of all the qualities of an unattractive, organic, homeschooling cruncher. Except you’re going to find a woman who looks at least mildly snoggable with no makeup… because those exist. 😉 No, that is the whitest woman I’ve ever heard of, and she looks like Shrek’s wife.

    If your wife has an IQ over 80, she’s gonna be bored out of her mind. And you’ll resent being married to such a creature. But you’ll pretend to like it. You’ll be that stoic-faced guy in the church bulletin, who’s all like, “God uses children to bless a marriage.”

    Let me revise your list of what you want (I know you’ll hate this):

    *Someone who is a real Christian, and is faithful in seeking God. Maybe not always daily, but she tries. Maybe she’s not service oriented, so her gifts are less visible, or maybe she is: whatever.

    *Someone you are really attracted to, and would snog often.

    *Someone who is completely honest about her past sex-life, including numbers and reasoning, although you have a very strong preference for other virgins. You don’t want a “prodigal daughter.”

    *Someone who shares your vision of a big homeschool family (sadly, we would never make it, dude).

    And there you are. Let the rest be a fun surprise!

    Also, you missed my initial compliment, thou booger. 😛

  24. @ Red

    Lol, not in the slightest. 😛

    1. Seeks God daily is definitely a requirement. No if, ands, or buts on that one.

    2. Attractive sure. We all agree there.

    3. Honest.. well, that falls under being a Christian.

    4. I actually don’t care about homeschooling THAT much. I know it’s in my original list but I’ve debated back and forth on that point with myself for a while now.

    Hence, why I boiled down my list above to two points: seeks God and is active with health and fitness. Those are my 2 must-haves. Everything else I’m fairly negotiable but do have preferences.

  25. Red says:

    I lost interest like halfway through it.

    *Seeks God daily isn’t enough to weed-out most hypocrites. It’s also not always humanly possible.

    *Honest… *and* Christian… I’ve seen that a few times, I guess…

    *Doesn’t homeschool? You’ve lowered your standards to a bowl of flavored oatmeal now. 🙂

  26. @ Red

    Nope, it’s not… but it’s pretty easy to start reading people to see if they’re lying if you’re paying attention. Though gunner451 is correct — a woman’s relationship with her father or lack thereof tells a lot.

    You can tell who is growing in their relationship with God if you ask them questions such as… what is God teaching you? Those who aren’t growing or in the Scriptures won’t have any answer.

    And I prefer to think I’ve lowered my standards to a candy wrapper. 😛

  27. Robyn says:

    Isn’t sex on your guys list? I find it odd. Of all the people I’ve talked to about marriage – sex is right up there on the top of the roots for conflicts (that and money – which BTW also causes major rifts in marriages).

  28. @ Robyn

    Red is a girl.

    Also, yes. I have a high libido. I usually group that under physical fitness/attraction though. Those that workout and eat well tend to have on average higher libidos.

  29. Robyn says:

    OK, thanks DS. Still applies though. Be careful of assumptions; things are usually not what they seem. Here’s what I mean: I have an extremely high sex drive but for the first half of our marriage it was hidden beneath wounds which I tried to heal alone with the self improvement of excellent health, aka: proper nutrition and fitness.

    Not hidden intentionally; just not known. My point was, in the lists then men make in seeking a wife, it would be better in the long run if the man (leader/authority) would have this discussion as a parameter from the get go, rather than assuming.

  30. @ Robyn

    It is something I ask women once I get to know them better.

  31. Red says:

    That probably seemed very Tin Tin, but I do happen to be a woman.

  32. @ Red

    It’s okay, we all know you like to pretend to be a man. 🙂

  33. Robyn says:

    @ DS: hey, that’s good. From what I’m hearing, a lot of conflict over sex could be averted if each person at least had an idea of which “field” they like to play on. Some people classify golf as an actual sport. Others would say, well, golf isn’t a REAL sport; not like hockey or rugby.

  34. @ Robyn,

    Yeah, one of the things I’ve made it a point to do when I’m learning more about someone is to broach “uncomfortable” topics because they matter.

    If I’m unable to talk about that which is uncomfortable then I’m going to be missing many topics which are important. Uncomfortable is not an excuse to not discuss and think about human sexuality and the Scriptures.

  35. Robyn says:

    @ DS: Amen!

  36. Red says:

    I am a gentleman and a scholar and an OG.

  37. @ Red

    What’s an OG?

    I knew you weren’t a girl. Couldn’t fool me. 😛

  38. Red says:

    You don’t know what an OG is?? You win the white and nerdy prize.

  39. Elspeth says:


  40. @ Red

    This white and nerdy prize?

    I’ll take it.

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  42. Red says:

    If that’s the kind of white and nerdy prize you’re into, sure. Most white nerds dig pasty redheads.

  43. @ Red

    You’re calling yourself a pasty redhead? 😛

  44. Red says:

    Rephrased: yes, I am calling myself a redhead. Shocking, I know. Maybe I had it wrong, and you’re less a nerd and more one of those tanned, muscle beach types. You’re so hard to read.

  45. @ Red

    I was mostly talking about the pastiness, haha. I could’ve guessed you were a redhead, but I would’ve thought you’d use a cooler term to describe it like alabaster skin.

    So why am I a tanned muscle beach type instead of a nerd? Feel free to e-mail me with your answer. 😛

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  47. Pingback: What I look for in evaluating a potential wife Part 2 | Reflections on Christianity and the manosphere

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