I want you versus I need you

This is a continuation of why I don’t respect women and love and respect.

I think love and respect are difficult concepts for most men and women to put into practice because they seem like vague concepts to us.

I have struggled for a long time to understand what love actually looks like in action because it varies heavily depending on the context of different situations.  No doubt many men have too in regard to their girlfriends or wives. Likewise, I think many girlfriends and wives have struggled with how to understand what it means to respect their husband. Submission is more straight forward, but it can be performed without respect.

Thus, I’ve been mulling these concepts over time and time again in my head over the past few months in order to find the attitude that underlies them. If we can correctly dicipher the attitude, it is much easier to implement the fundamental priciples even in disparate situations.

I want you versus I need you

  • I want you is the underlying attitude of love.
  • I need you is the underlying attitude of respect and submission.

A want implies a desire for a particular thing. In the case of God, it is that God desires us to come to Him.

1 Timothy 2: First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [a]authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and [b]dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [d]given at [e]the proper time.

What does God do in His want or desire?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He demonstrates His love through the action of sending His son as a sacrifice to die for our sins while we were yet still sinners.

God doesn’t need us. But He shows His love for us in His desire for us. Likewise, does Jesus need His disciples? Certainly not. But Jesus still called the 12 disciples because He wanted them specifically. He told them to “Come, follow me” out of that desire. Husbands can demonstrate their love/desire/want for their wives through their words and actions.

On the other hand, a need implies that one cannot function or may cease to function effectively without it being met. This is the underlying attitude of respect and submission.

The reason why we, as Christians, respect and submit to Jesus is because without Him we can do nothing.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already [b]clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [c]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Deuteronomy 8:3 “He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

In the second quote, Jesus also references that in His temptation with Satan.

A need is also the nature of the relationship between a teacher and his disciples. A teacher without any disciples is but a preacher. However, a preacher has the capacity to be a teacher once he takes on disciples under him. This is the entire essence of Christianity which is to go and make disciples of all nations.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 [e]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [f]always, even to the end of the age.”

However, the relationship between that of the disciple to the teacher is one of need. You cannot be a disciple or student without a teacher. What is a student without a teacher but an aimless wanderer? A student needs the teacher much like we need God. It is in this need that the teacher provides instruction and guidance to the student.

This is the essence of the relationship between God and Jesus here on earth. The Father does not need Jesus, but Jesus needs the Father in order that He may accomplish His will. The same is true of Jesus and the Church. Jesus does not need the Church rather He wants the Church. However, the Church needs Jesus otherwise it becomes an the abomination known as churchianity. The Church does not merely want Jesus. It needs Jesus.

In the same way, a husband does not need his wife. But to truly love her he must want her and desire her to seek after the Father and him. Conversely, the wife does not merely want her husband but she needs him. Without a husband she is no wife. She cannot be a helpmeet to no one. It is for this reason that God created Eve for Adam.

This is men look at vulnerability as a highly prized attribute in women. It demonstrates that a woman is willing to lay herself bare such that the man will take up the mantle of headship. She will be able to put her trust in him. She needs him, and he will flourish in her need to protect and provide for her. On the other hand, a strong and independent women is a turn off for most men. If a woman can do everything by herself why does she need a man? She has indicated she clearly does not need a man. She places her trust in herself and is not willing to be open to trust in a man.

Promiscuity, especially in women, damages her ability to be vulnerable. The vast majority of women who are promiscuous put up barriers because their trust has been destroyed by many men. This changes her underlying attitude to be one of strength and independence rather than that of trust which makes her a poor prospect in terms of being respectful and submissive in marriage. Pair bonding does not even need to be mentioned even though it is important to a healthy marriage as well.

When women divorce their husbands they are ridiculing God. They are stating that they don’t need God who created nor do they need their husbands. They know better than God or their husbands, and they can get along fine on their own.

Hypergamy

Hypergamy is one of the most discussed topics in the manosphere, and I am on record stating that I don’t believe it to be sinful in nature but as a facet of God’s good creation. However, like all facets it has the potential to go awry and become an idol. The nature for us to be able to be tempted is good because it allows us free will, but when we use free will for evil it gives rise to sin.

Hypergamy, at its core, belies a state of need. As Christians we recognize that we are sinners and can do nothing by ourselves. We need Jesus and accept Him as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. Given the nature of the relationships between God-Jesus, Jesus-Church, and husband-wife, it should come as no surprise that women are hypergamous in their search for a husband. When a woman meets her hypergamy, she is meeting a state of need. She is marrying into a better position via money, social status, or the like. This is the same as Jesus meeting our need as broken sinners and lifting us up out of our depravity to become sons of God.

This is why I don’t complain about hypergamy because complaining is a sin. Complaining about something that is created as good is evil. However, it is good and right to make the statement that unrestrained hypergamy often leads to sin, and to call out others if they go down this road toward entitlement syndrome.

Conclusions

For many men learning to be men, it is important to understand these two concepts. If you have had an attitude that you:

  • need a woman/wife
  • need sex
  • need a woman to love or desire you [for who you are]
  • or need anything

Then you are operating in the wrong frame of reference. This is the importance of Dominion over what you consider your needs. I don’t need a woman, but I desire to have a wife. I don’t need sex, but I want sex. I don’t have a family, but I desire to have a family.

Wives who don’t respect or submit to their husbands would be wise to understand that they need their husband, though not above their need for God. Without him they are no wife, and they are no helpmeet as long as they foster a strong and independent attitude. This will help to cultivate a godly respect and submission which honors God and her husband.

There is a difference between a need and desperation. Prior to marriage in the dating/courtship range wants and needs have to be moderated very carefully. A woman who comes across as desperately needing a man is as unattractive as a strong independent woman. The reason for this is because it is an idolization of a husband over God.

Likewise, having a wife having a need for her husband does not mean she does not have her own opinions or is a doormat. But I’m sure most of you understand that.

I’m going to continue the Dominion series — A Chistian understanding of attraction and Dominion — with my next post.

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14 Responses to I want you versus I need you

  1. okrahead says:

    How would you address the argument that God’s statement, “It is not good for man to be alone” demonstrates that a man needs a woman?

  2. Chad says:

    You have some good stuff here, but I think you go a bit too far in terms of need when it comes to women.

    Did Christ need thr church? Not in a ‘for him’ way, but to accomplish his goals here on earth to spread his message and have as many souls as possible he needed a church or some other institution to teach and spread the gospel.

    So, the church was his helpmeet and he needed her to accomplish his goals with men in the eay he desired; the way most full of Charity that would save souls.

    Now, to take this to husbands, one has to keep a few things in mind. First is that, if you want a family, yes you need a wife. If you have passions that need to be released, yes you need a wife. Further, husbands are not perfect and have very real needs beyond those two things. Otherwise, why would you care about what quality woman you married? If you don’t need her or anything a wife could offer, what matters about her quality?

    The fact that we seek good wives puts the lie to that. Otherwise I’m sure we could all be engaged by now. But the fact is that this group of men believes that a wife and family will help them reach salvation. At minimum we believe the search for and humble failing will help us grow closer to God, and I have seen exactly that in all of us.

    That is certainly something I need. Is the need for a wife the primary factor? No, never. It would be unhealthy inversion of the relationship, as you rightly point out. But to claim that there is no element of need seems to go too far to me. In the same way, I think a wife’s primary motivation absolutely should be based in need, so as to set the foundation for respect/submission. Afterwards I think comes love, desire, and a whole slew of other things that make up a good home maker

  3. @ okrahead

    I was going to address this in the post but i didn’t.

    “It is not good for man to be alone”

    Does not demonstrate a need for man, but a love/desire from God for man. This is why a woman is created for him under his headship to be a helpmeet.

    However, I think it is best framed in a question: If a man needed a woman then why didn’t God just create them at the same time?

    The questions of “why not this” in the creation are probably better at explaining the intent than “why this” questions.

    Also, I would not overstate needs and wants here. In 1 Cor 11 Paul talks about creation order and the interdependence of woman and man for each other in their roles, especially in the context of procreation.

  4. @ Chad

    I think I see what you’re getting at, and I would relate it to the passage in 1 Corinthians 11 about there being an interdependence of the husband and wife in marriage.

    Like you said, it’s not in a “for him” way but it’s in a way to let’s say “make something beautiful” that cannot be done alone.

    I think this is the reason that God said that it was not good for man to be alone. Not because man needs woman, but there is a beauty in the relationship between those created in God’s image that cannot exist with just one.

    That’s not a denigration of those who are to serve God single either. There are different roles and responsibilities in the body of Christ and some things can only be performed with a wife, and some things can only be performed single.

    Perhaps it is a semantics issue here. I don’t see what you are saying in terms of “needing” a wife in terms of a want or desire (which is the love I am talking about) — but rather you “require” a wife to fulfill His will if you are to be married.

    Does that make sense?

  5. Chad says:

    I makes sense, but I still think I disagree.

    I think the boundary is thus:

    Before marriage, a man does need a woman if he wants to have a family. However, he does not need any particular woman, and is not beholden to a woman.

    He still needs one.

    After marriage, he has very real needs that the woman must fulfill so that he can fulfill his responsibilities as head of household. If the wife is a net drain instead of a helpmeet, she is not fulfilling her duty, he is not getting his needs met, and is not able to fulfill his duties as well as he could, if at all.

    However, just because he has needs does not make him subservient. Rather, it makes him human and a man. As head of household, he has the right to demand those needs. This is the same as a king making just demands of subjects or Christ having demands of the church (go out and baptise all nations, etc). These just demands are not needed for the higher authority’s existence, but to fulfill the goals and design they have.

    My main point is that, by saying man has no needs of a woman or a wife, you are starting to make him more than a man in a way that seems detrimental to acknowledging his needs in order to take proper actions to obtain them and move forward with his goals for himself and his family in their striving towards God

  6. @ Chad

    I think this is getting into the territory of the “is there marital rape or not” thread of commands/demands and submission/obedience to such.

    If I were to clarify anything I would say that this post would most likely speak in terms of an ideal. In a perfect world, Christ would be the head and desire that His helpmeet — the Church — do the will of the Father and we would respond perfectly. Likewise, if husbands and wives were perfect a husband would love/desire/want his wife and she would be responsive to his desire for sex, as a helpmeet, and other tasks.

    But, because we are imperfect, we entire the territory of “have to do” mindset versus the “get to do” mindset that underlies true Christianity.

    I would say that as much as possible we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, but I do understand the point you are making that it often happens the way you describe because we live in an imperfect world.

  7. Chad says:

    How is it getting into marital rape? I am talking about all the needs of men. Respect, love, food. But, more than anything, to be a shepherd leading his followers to God.

    Every man is made for that. He needs it and it is a built in part of his nature as a creation of God. There are different ways to obtain it, but obtain it he must.

    If a man has used his discernment to believe that a wife and children are the way to do so for him, it does both him and his family a disservice to discount his needs. This is true even before marriage, as every individual must discern what he needs in a future wife. Again, he cannot need a specific individual woman before marriage, and is unhealthy to believe so. Yet he does need a woman of a particular type.

    I think, at the heart of it, your post is drawing clear delineation between needs and wants and that a man should not have needs in a woman. I disagree and think he must need a woman, but that such in no way excuses him to give into weakness, to submit to her, or fulfill anything other than head of household

  8. @ Chad

    Ok, I see what you are saying.

    I think your position is best put in terms of the original post where I said:

    A teacher without a student/disciple is but a preacher.

    But when a preacher becomes a teacher by taking on a student/disciples, there is a special relationship that is formed in which the teacher/disciple have their needs in some shape or form.

    Still, I’m hesitant over the semantic wording here, but I don’t think it’s word arguing about further.

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  10. Korben says:

    I enjoyed your article and I agree with the thrust of it. I have a question though, if a woman is redeemed in Christ how can we say that she “needs” anything at all? If Christ is all sufficient can we really say that she “needs” a husband? Is she not also independent in some way? Also, what about women who are widow’s or who never marry? Are you saying that they are less than what they could be because they lack a husband?

  11. @ Korben

    Men and women that can control their desires and don’t want to be married should follow what 1 Corinthians 7 says and stay single to devote their time to God.

    Additionally, there’s a reason Paul exhorts younger widows to marry lest they become busybodies in Timothy.

    Obviously, this article is a bit more tongue in cheek than it is definitive in my opinion. It’s about the attitude with which men and women should approach the relationship so as to understand why love and respect are given and received. Does that make sense?

  12. Korben says:

    Yes, that makes sense. I agree that the relationship between man and wife should reflect the relationship between Christ and his people. This implies a certain sort of dependence on the woman’s part. That is also what I took from your article to mean. I just wanted to clarify.

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