The basics

6 months ago a commentor contacted me about potentially writing a red pill primer for boys like Ian Ironwood’s but in the context Christianity.

As far as I know, on the Christian manosphere there is only collections of posts discussing various topics typically spread out through multiple blogs. Thus, it’s very hard for people to learn what are the basic premises and responses that Christians should have when looking at the “red pill.”

I’m willing to do this in this new year, and I’d like people to contribute to it so it’s not only me. If there is anyone interested, go to the about page and send me an e-mail and we’ll talk about various topics that should be included in it.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Godly mindset & lifestyle and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

32 Responses to The basics

  1. If you have suggestions, you can place them in the comments here.

  2. I’d be willing to donate. Setup a paypal account or something to send donations.

  3. Patrick Pedat Ebediyah Golston says:

    I’ve been thinking about this very thing for quite a while. Having worked in diverse communities, I think there would be general ideas about Red-Pill manhood, and those specific to certain ethnic groups.

    For example, and no offense to anyone, but I know that in non-white (black and latino) communities, there is an undercurrent (even amongst so-called Christians) where the usurping of headship (via disrespect, solipsistic independence, and financial and sexual manipulation) is seem to be a sign of virtue or strength for these women to the point of glorification.

    “I’m a STRONG (black/mexican/latino) woman!” “I got me a STRONG, sassy little mamacita…”

    But is she STRONG in the LORD and the power of His Might – or NOT???

    After I swallowed the Red Pill, I hardly even view music (ie..”love” songs) the same anymore. It’s all idolatry in the broadest sense, and damn near witchcraft.

  4. if by suggestions you mean, which questions should it answer, then some which would have been surely interesting to my 15 yo myself (hell, I’m not sure about some of these 11 years later):
    how to deal with sex drive/sexual frustration in a chaste way?
    should I be dating girl at all if I know there is no way i can marry her in the next (lets say) 2 years? is it even worth it (temptation etc) when I can’t have sex with her?
    how to become confident/experienced with girls in a chaste/moral way?
    should I be open about these views? If so how not to come out as a weirdo?

  5. Don Quixote says:

    The idea sounds great.
    Many [most?] men who swallowed-the-red-pill actually had it stuffed down their throats by the divorce process, this same process is largely supported by nearly all churches these days. IMHO, any primer written [for young men/boys] from a Christian perspective should include a brief explanation/warning of how feminism is deeply embedded in Christianity through misappropriated divorce apologetics. This topic wouldn’t require a large document, but a simple and concise warning exposing the pitfalls.

  6. Don Quixote says:

    I would be happy to offer support in this area.

  7. thedeti says:

    Necessary topics for Christians and “red pill”:

    –don’t expect to learn any of it at church or from men at church. People in church will not teach it, nor support you in learning it, nor even understand most of it.

    –you’ll garner massive opposition and hostility from nearly all quarters in modern society.

    –put it into practice and live it. Don’t talk about it.

    –The primacy of sexual attraction when selecting a wife

    –the universality of the expressed principles; to combat the notion that Christian women are somehow “special” or “different” when it comes to interaction with men

    –there are no differences between Christian women and nonChristian women WRT intersexual relationships (e.g. Christian women want to date, marry and have sex with sexy men just like all other women do)

    –The differences between sexual attraction and comfort

    –Attractive traits and comfort traits

    –dualistic and shifting mating strategies (commonly known as AFBB)

    –Don’t listen to what she says. Watch what she does. Do not ask her who she is. Within a few hours and days, she will show you who she is. And when she shows you who she is, believe her

    –headship is expected in marriage

    –what does a prospective wife think about “marital rape” and no fault divorce

    –basic legalities surrounding current marriage

    –how to respond to wifely disrespect and attempt to undermine a husband’s scriptural authority

  8. nitouken says:

    I would personally be interested in a book co-authored by deti.

  9. nitouken, I absolutely agree. Please deti? haha.

  10. thedeti says:

    –For men, the default response to marriage should be “no”. You should not be looking for a girl to marry. For that matter, you should not be looking for a girl at all. Let them seek you out.

    –do not expect to marry. Expect to be single and to remain such.

    –It is your job to qualify yourself for her sexually. If you’re giving her more than a second look and are interacting with her in any way, she is qualified sexually and she needn’t really qualify herself further. You have to win her body. If she is a woman of any value, she will not give just anyone access her body.

    –It is the woman’s job to qualify herself to you and show she is marriage material. It is not your job to qualify yourself to her and show you are marriage material. If she is qualifying herself to you, then she has already decided you are qualified. Make her work for access to your heart. Make her win your heart. If you are a man of value, you will not let just anyone access your heart.

    –She needs to show she is sexually attracted to you. The answer to “does this woman want to have sex with me?” needs to be an absolute, unqualified, categorical, immediate “Hell yeah!”

  11. thedeti says:

    –how women misuse and misdefine the word “attractive”. Women almost never talk about attraction the same way men talk about it. When men talk about a girl being attractive, men mean she has an appealing physical appearance. When women talk about the attractiveness of a man in public, most of the time they’re talking about how comfortable he makes them feel. Women almost never talk about what really matters to them with attraction, which is his appearance and his confidence and bearing. Women don’t talk publicly very much about how important looks are to them, because they know that to do so makes them look shallow, superficial and bitchy.

  12. Quick question:

    In regard to the RP lexicon (for example, of which “red pill” is one), I would think it would be better to write the entire thing in non-RP lexicon in order to reach more people.

    Of course, the problem with this that there will be somewhat a watering down of material.

  13. thedeti says:

    Another thing to include is the importance of frame. The frame from the beginning sets the course and tone for the rest of the relationship whether that is weeks or decades. The frame must always, always be the man’s — first, last, always. You invite her into your life. You only bring a woman into your life if she is compatible with the life you have constructed for yourself. You do not bring a woman into your life and allow, ask or expect her to construct that life for you. And you most certainly do not enter her life or the one she has constructed for herself. You build a life for yourself, first, then bring a woman who wants that life into it, and she fits herself into that life of her own accord.

    This doesn’t mean that you have everything all in place, all the ducks in a row, all the money earned, all the promotions, and you are in exactly the job you want. It does mean that you at least have your own job, your own place, and have a lifestyle you enjoy and that suits you. If you have not yet done that, and you have not yet settled yourself into a lifestyle that suits you, or you don’t know yourself well enough to have figured out a suitable lifestyle, or you are trying out different lifestyles to find a suitable one, then you are not ready to bring a woman into your life for the long haul and you should not do so.

    Once you get there, your attitude must be that that lifestyle will not be upended or even changed significantly to accommodate a woman. She will need to accommodate herself to the life and lifestyle you built; not vice versa. And if she does not want to do that, then she is not the right woman. Cut her loose if she doesn’t cut you loose first.

  14. thedeti says:

    Another thing to be covered:

    –fear. Men are conditioned in Christian churches nowadays to be afraid of losing a woman. Christian men have to reverse their thinking and tune out much of what they hear from Christian churches on dating and relationships, and the role of the woman in the man-woman relationship. He needs to realize that he did just fine without her before and that if he really has to, he will be just fine without her again. She needs him much more than he needs her.

    –“drafthorse” and “utility” viewpoints. Christian men are told their prime value is as husbands to women and fathers to children. While these are important to the woman and children, they cannot be his most important reason for existence. His prime reason for existence is to glorify God, and that’s largely separate from pulling a wagon or serving the needs of a woman and children. This is why frame is important – if he doesn’t have his own, hasn’t built his own, a woman will be happy to give him one and build one for him. And most likely he won’t like the frame someone else gives him.

    –Abundance and scarcity. Christian men are conditioned to view women as a scarce resource and one that they absolutely MUST have. First, they’re not scarce. Christian men think they are because they do not look or seek in all the right places. Second, a Christian man doesn’t absolutely HAVE to have one. He has to take the attitude that a woman can be replaced or done without if necessary.

  15. thedeti says:

    –Christian men need to deal with their fear of dealing with women and in rejecting ones they aren’t attracted to or don’t want for whatever reason. If you’re set up with a girl you don’t find attractive, say so and cut her loose. If a girl isn’t physically attractive, cut her loose. If you’ve been dating a woman for a few weeks or months and you’ve realized it’s not going to work for whatever reason, cut her loose. If she wants to marry and you don’t, cut her loose. You might as well, because the moment she decides you’re not the right one, she probably won’t hesitate to cut you loose.

  16. thedeti says:

    –the inherent, innate goodness of the male sex drive and male sexuality. A man’s sex drive is good because God put it there. God fully intended that man to have sex. It is also good because the same drive that propels him to attraction and sex with women also pushes him to make, do, build and improve himself. His sex drive is not bad and it does not make him bad. WHen he harnesses that drive in HIS OWN service and not the service of a woman, he will achieve great things.

  17. I have a question in regards to the expectation of fitting into the man’s lifestyle:

    Do you expect a woman to come into a man’s home after she has married him, and not arrange the home in the way that suits her? Meaning, he has a bachelor pad and he tells his wife this is how he likes it and she’s not to alter it unless he sees the value in it….and she gets very frustrated because she cannot make her home in her own way. A child or two comes along and it gets even more difficult.

    While I am not saying this happens a lot, I have seen it happen a couple of times and the wife festered from a lot of resentment for many years. It was brushed under the rug, and brushed under the rug, along with a lot of other things of similar nature, until the mountain under the rug became huge.

    The premise I am seeing a lot is that the wife may appeal her husband, but in a very specific way. She has to rehearse very carefully so as to not be disrespectful, and the chance is likely that most of the time he will say no, and that’s the end of if (he will definitely say no if he perceives her to be disrespectful). I know that most women in society just take over and the men take it because that’s how society has conditioned everybody, but having already seen women get trampled all over, I still have this concern….as we try to make our homes look nice and work out for our families and OK for our children and trying to arrange furniture, only to have husbands veto it and say it’s fine as it is …..or try to decorate the front room so it’s not in early NFL style and get in trouble.

  18. thedeti says:

    “Do you expect a woman to come into a man’s home after she has married him, and not arrange the home in the way that suits her? Meaning, he has a bachelor pad and he tells his wife this is how he likes it and she’s not to alter it unless he sees the value in it….and she gets very frustrated because she cannot make her home in her own way”

    The short answer is no.

    Before I get to the longer answer , let me clear this up: “cannot make her home in her own way”

    Excuse me? Once they marry, uh, HIS home becomes HER home? I like to think of it as THEIR home – HIS and HERS. In fact, under the scenario you mentioned, it was HIS home FIRST, and he is now sharing it with her. His sharing his home with her does not make it “her” home.

    And why does she need to make it HER own way? Why can’t the home be made THEIR way? One would think they could do it together. The way I do it is that Mrs. Deti and I make broad decisions together and she works out the details.

    Now, to the longer answer.

    When I talk about a man finding a lifestyle that fits him I’m talking about much more than the physical structure or dwelling the married couple lives in. I’m talking about the routines and rhythms of his life, his occupation and time spent, how he likes to spend leisure time, how and when chores get done, the sorts of food and drink he likes, when he gets up and when he sleeps, etc. I’m not talking so much about how the home should be styled.

    Honestly, Mom in Shoe, I really cannot fathom the kinds of men you’re talking about – micromanaging home decoration/ arrangement decisions. What sorts of tyrants or effeminate men are these who insist on such things? Most men don’t really care about such things so long as they’re functional and serve a purpose.

    You’re not talking there about dominant, confident men. You’re talking about insecure tyrants. An insecure tyrant micromanages such things as styling the home. But I will say that the way they should do it is together. The tyrant shouldn’t micromanage; but neither should she make unilateral decisions which completely rearrange everything. She ought consult him first. No one, man or woman, should be so rigid, so insecure, so controlling, that they can’t come together and make these decisions together.

  19. thedeti says:

    And, Mom in Shoe, I can’t fathom the sorts of women you’re talking about – a woman marries a man and comes into HIS home and demands that it now be considered HER home, and arrogates to herself the unfettered right to make unilateral decisions on home decor and arrangement with neither consult nor input from her husband. Yeah, that would irritate me too; and yeah; I’d put my foot down about that too.

  20. @Deep Strength:

    I attempted something similar last year, although I wrote it primarily for my brothers and released it publicly as an afterthought. It is on Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Subversive-Biblical-Manliness-Moose-Norseman-ebook/dp/B00IQWEWS0/ I’d be happy to send you a free copy if you think it might be useful to your writing process.

  21. Deti,

    Every time somebody brings up a point on any aspect, and that somebody doesn’t agree with you, your fangs come out. Why?

    You said, “His sharing his home with her does not make it “her” home.” That’s exactly what I mean, sometimes she is sharply rebuked with just that, and in no uncertain terms her opinion is dismissed promptly. She can do nothing.

    I have known men whose mothers were from the Depression era, in which they saved everything — and I mean that literally; such as twist ties from bags, string that was too short to use, bits of old crayons — in jars. They ended up coming into a house full of knickknacks of innumerable count, and things they were working around. Dusting became a chore that took up half the day; clear the entire shelf of the stuff, dust each item, then dust the shelf, then replace all the items — finally it was, why bother, I can’t get rid of this stuff. She quit cleaning and decided it just wasn’t worth it anymore. The place got to be a mess. She didn’t even want to get dressed in the morning and stopped bothering to comb her hair or put on any makeup unless she had to leave the house for some reason. Of course he didn’t like that and scolded her for turning into a slob.

    When the baby came she still wanted to get rid of things they didn’t need. The house became filled with more stuff and she got more frustrated. Finally she had enough and began making the changes she needed to make without his knowledge. It wasn’t worth it to have the two hour discussion and trying to show every minute reason why she wanted to do X that would result in just him saying no. So she got secondhand furniture she wanted through resale shops, stored it quietly, brought things out and got rid of other things bit by bit. She finally got rid of some football trophy items that were plastered all over their living room and put up some art prints and flowers that she found at garage sales and resale shops. She was a lot happier, had more energy and looked forward to cleaning up and doing her work at last — she also started to care about how she looked and began wearing makeup again, began to take a interest in her clothes, etc., but guess who accused her of theft, disrespect and disobedience. They ended up keeping the things she had carefully gathered and arranged, but he took down all her flower and art for the living room and put all the football motifs back up to teach her a lesson about obedience. The house became filled again. She only invites people over when he says to, as she lost interest in entertaining. She pretty much lost interest in everything, except perhaps her daughter. Now that the daughter is an adult, she clings to her like a leech, never cleans, never does anything at home pretty much, and isn’t very great company at all, even though she used to be. Having a conversation with her is like talking to somebody of a narrow mind who cannot function well at all on her own. Her daughter gets annoyed with her. In fact, pretty everyone is annoyed by her, and the tragic thing is that this shouldn’t have been. My hypothesis is that she may have developed clinical depression which went untreated, and now it may be untreatable, just by interacting with her on a fairly regular basis.

    This is a composite of two ladies I know, for obvious reasons that their identities must be protected.

    By the way, “make her own home in her own way” isn’t from me, it’s from the man who wrote the book “Man of Steel and Velvet”. Why do you think we are called “homemakers”?

  22. thedeti says:

    “His sharing his home with her does not make it “her” home.”

    Because it’s *their* home. Not his. Not hers. Theirs. Together.

    You must know a lot of men who either can’t or won’t deal with their wives in any sort of understanding, kind way. Your experience is the exact opposite of mine. Most of the men I’ve known are TOO kind, exceedingly understanding, and far too deferential. As a result, the women in their lives walk all over them, and they are miserably unhappy.

    I suppose it happens that men treat their women the way you describe, but most such women just divorce. I don’t know any woman who would tolerate what you describe, but I suppose there are some.

    If it’s any consolation, I agree the men are being a bit too rigid and unreasonable, and some compromise could be found. Because they live there. Together. He doesn’t get everything he wants; she doesn’t get everything she wants. They ought be able to find common ground. They found enough common ground to marry; why can’t they find common ground sufficient to arrange their living quarters? Sheesh.

  23. Don Quixote says:

    @ Deep Strength:
    I read the ‘Red Pill Primer for Boys’ and I liked the presentation, but not the evolutionary aspect, or the [sexually] hedonistic mindset. [We probably have similar thoughts in this regard.] His presentation is excellent for young guys who don’t like reading, 2 or 3 paragraphs per page with an illustration, and a subject that will hold their attention. Please consider this aspect when doing this.

  24. Anonymous says:

    I am aware of the many of the things that you are talking about; I think a number of my male relatives are Red Pill, or something like that.
    I had a date one time who was Red Pill, and he was the first person to even notice me. We went to a mutual friend’s wedding one time, and everybody was dancing with their date, but we didn’t. He knew I really wanted to, so he made sure to be in charge of the situation by not dancing with me…it made me sort of sad, but I pretended it was OK because it would have been wrong to nag. I really would have liked it, though. My husband has always refused to dance with me, also, when we went to a couple of weddings (although I would have loved just enjoying it privately in our living room), so I sometimes imagine we are. I like to dress in my nicest dress and I get out our wedding pictures and pretend we are dancing or doing whatever. It refreshes me and keeps me from nagging.
    I learned years ago to make lists of things I wanted and then divide those things into two groups, one group the things I could do for myself and the other group the things that required the cooperation of someone else. If it requires the cooperation of someone else, I think of an acceptable substitute — like, I want my husband’s attention. I know that won’t happen because that’s manipulation in his eyes, so I usually leave the house and go for a long walk or a run. I talk to myself about what I want, or what is worrying me, or whatever I would like to seek closeness for, and that makes me feel better. I can then return home and resume whatever I have to do without the overwhelming temptation to nag.
    I know lots of men who are very strict about not allowing themselves to be manipulated or pulled into another’s frame. I am very lonely. But it’s OK. I wish there was a way that somehow both person’s needs could be met, too, and that you would be less strict about us.

  25. jonadabtherechabite says:

    Some thoughts I might include:

    -The dominion mandate and the wife as subordinate role in fulfilling it.
    -The fall effected the moral state of women as well as men.
    Adam was cursed because he listened to his wife and tried to make her happy instead of obeying God.
    -The wife is to fear, obey and honor her husband, while he is to lead, protect and provide for her.
    -The husband is to sanctify his wife, and that means requiring her to live according the Word of God and discipline when she refuses.
    -Husbands are to model Christ to their wives, but not just in His suffering, also in His authority, provision and protection.
    -The woman’s world-view of sex is cyclical and driven by her hypergamy,
    -The man’s world-view of sex is constant and driven by his possessing and conquest.
    -In Christ both men and women are to overcome their natures of hypergamy/ polygamy to monogamous fidelity, where withholding is as serious as adultery.
    -Men are often view sex as validation, women as empowerment, In Christ sex is seen as union that paints the picture of the consummation of Christ and the church in His kingdom.
    -Sex in all its variations is holy and good as designed by God for marriage and bad outside.
    -There are no “rights” in marriage, only authority, submission, duties and gratitude.
    -Manning up means to be both Alpha and Beta as Christ is both.
    -Everyone is in submission to something, wives to husbands, husbands to Christ.
    -It is not Biblically sanctioned for a woman to file for divorce.
    -Divorce is not a Christian option.
    -A divorced woman is to be a reproach to society, not a hero.
    -A divorced woman is an adulterer if her “ex-husband” is still breathing.
    -Fornication is not a proper response to feminism, fornicators will not inherit the kingdom.
    -White-knights are enablers of subversion.
    -Family law is deleterious to the family
    -Big Government has become the surrogate man with both alpha and beta appeal.

  26. @ Anonymous

    Perhaps the better question to ask is:

    Why does your husband think the attention you want from him is manipulation?

    Have you manipulated him in the past? If so, what have you done to correct this or change your behavior?

    What have you done to communicate to him that you don’t want to manipulate him and have his best interests at heart?

    This may help:

    http://peacefulwife.com/2015/01/12/some-questions-from-a-wife-with-an-easily-offended-husband/

  27. the uncool dad says:

    I’ll offer my two cents, this sounds like an unresolved conflict. When this happens, I have to ask myself what it’s really about. If it’s about who’s boss, or if it’s about her or me being upset or she’s on her period or something, I drop the subject. Those are problems you can’t solve, because they have to work themselves out. Even when she’s challenging my authority, I change the “subject” and I tell her, “This isn’t about the burner being too high, Mylene.” That’s usually a good place to end it.

    When you know what the conflict’s about, just resolve it. “Who’s the boss” just gets in the way. Now it’s not about that, now it’s about what’s right and what’s wrong, and that doesn’t have to do with neither of us. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But usually, she is. 😉

    Most likely, he just hates to dance. Sure, I feel for her. I’d know I’d be upset if my partner didn’t want my affection (although that’s hardly the case). It’s foreplay for some women. My wife likes slow dancing, and she sometimes initiates sex by turning on some Kenny Chesney music and coming out in a slip. I prefer the polka, myself. More bouncin’.

    Sometimes, she turns on Coyote Ugly in all black leather and does a diddy on my lap, and I’m drinking whisky and howlin’ up a storm. But the kids better be out of the house, or they’ll think we’re being attacked by a pack of wolves. So they yell, “Daddy, get out your gun!” and there it is!

    Well, that’s it, I’m horrible. It’s okay, you’ll understand when you get married.

    Now I say, this fellow, I think he don’t wanna dance. Maybe he don’t like waltzin’. Not much of us do. He’s gonna like belly dancin’, pole dancin’, lap dancin’… he’ll be around for THAT. You know, same thing, if the wife don’t want to go down on you, she don’t like the flavor, dip it in her Starbucks vanilla latte. I’m just teasing.

  28. Anonymous says:

    “Why does your husband think the attention you want from him is manipulation?”
    It takes me a long time to say what I have to say. I am very nervous with any conversation other than small talk (i.e., the weather). To really get it out, I usually need an hour or so, and I need somebody to encourage me to continue. I am just that uncomfortable. He is the spit-it-out, let’s get it over with type of person, which I realize is the mode of most men and I understand that. Fact is, he plows over me and I find myself completely frustrated and irritated because I didn’t get out what I was trying to get out, and by then the conversation is over and I am just angry afterward — hence why I just give up trying and go for the run instead (hey, it burns calories).

    “Have you manipulated him in the past? If so, what have you done to correct this or change your behavior?”
    He would probably say yes, I would say no. If I did, I certainly didn’t realize it. Unless you count as manipulation doing things for him in hopes that he might at least reciprocate a little bit (such as putting out the chips and dip, buying beer and having it in the fridge cold, disappearing during football so he can watch in peace and quiet, in the hopes that I can get a few minutes of his time later, and then feeling irritated that that didn’t happen, and letting the frustration build until finally I exploded at one point when chores came to a head after two kids threw up one night and the laundry backed up and breakfast wasn’t on the table). Then if you do count that, then yes, I manipulated him. And making the sports day comfortable is my duty and obligation, I would do it anyway, so I am confused by somebody considering that manipulation.

    “What have you done to communicate to him that you don’t want to manipulate him and have his best interests at heart?”
    Um…doing what he wants me to do, I guess? I homeschool the kids at his decision, even though I really don’t think it’s the best idea. I think it would be good for a couple of the kids, but I don’t think it’s the right decision for my oldest, and as a former teacher I think I have good reasons. But he says home is the best, so I do it. I have dropped the subject with him because no further purpose can be served from continuing to try to discuss it. I am sure he has his reasons because he attended co-ed elementary school and all-boys high school, whereas I was a first generation homeschooler in the 80’s-90’s and am not convinced it is the one and only way….but maybe he knows something I don’t.

  29. @ Anonymous

    Write down your thoughts and rehearse them then have a talk. If you continue to hide behind the old “I’m trying but he doesn’t understand me” then you’re asking him to be a mind reader which he is not.

    The vast majority of this sounds like a lack of communication. You’re assuming you know how he feels, and he probably thinks that nothing is wrong since you haven’t talked to him.

    Assumptions and expectations uncommunicated ruin relationships.

  30. Don Quixote says:

    Dear Deep Strength, I saw this image and thought it was funny. Then I remembered this recent post how you were considering putting together a red-pill primer for boys. While it is a bit crass it makes the basic point clear, and sets a foundation for further explanation, I will put the link below:

  31. Scott says:

    Hello-

    Deti suggested I come here and read. I have known about this site for sometime, just for some reason looked. Please write this primer. I will feature it at http://www.courtshippledge.com

    Adding you to my/our blog roll.

    God bless.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s