This was an interesting exchange over at Donal’s post on what women find attractive in men. First, I write as a response to a woman’s response to Donal’s post:
Donal, what I would have discussed is the difference between attraction and desire. Women typically get these confused because they don’t know what they find attractive, and thus they associate what they find desirable with what they find attractive. Yes, we’ve gone over this many times before.
For example, if being a Christian was considered attractive then all women — Christian and non-Christian — would be attracted to all Christian men. This is obviously empiracally false.
What Gabriella describes is such traits that she finds desirable:
“In my experience, after becoming a full out Christian (I was brought up in a Christian home) by brain did suddenly change and I certainly found different things attractive so there goes your “it doesn’t happen” it happens all the time! I grew taste for things like humility, godliness and love for God, the depth of love he exhibits and truthfulness, basically, how much is this guy like Jesus was the question?”
Let’s be clear. Many Christian men have these traits. Except not all of these Christian men are attractive.
I’m not going to say that these traits cannot be attractive. In some instances they are attractive. For example, a man willing to stand up to a woman in order to oppose her if she is off track in terms of a theological point or sinning is going to be attractive to a man because he will display to her that he is dominant and can be respect. Not because he is telling the truth. Discussing the truth is merely a byproduct of a man who has set God before women.
On the other hand, a Christian man who tells a Christian pretty woman she is pretty is telling the truth. But that does not make a Christian man attractive to that Christian woman. Indeed, it may repulse her if the man says it in such a way that he is setting her up on a pedestal or thinks she is too good for him.
Attraction and desire are two separate things. However, attraction and desire can overlap in certain circumstances. However, the majority of the time women talk about what is attractive to them they are telling you what they find desirable. Occasionally, you will get a woman who is knowledgable of what she finds attractive: confidence, knows-what-he-wants, looks, his talents, etc. I find this to be rare though.
To men: the list in Donal’s OP is true. Don’t listen to women about what they find attractive. They’re mostly wrong.
Then the reply:
Okayyy, I was gone DS, but this went to my email and I saw my name in the preview and your post just HAD to be commented on. In case you weren’t aware deepstrength, Christians and non-Christians alike, don’t find arrogance and obstinance attractive in a man unless they have abuse issues, which you often find, and only after time goes by do they realize what is truly being displayed. However, the more worldly or carnal a person is, the more susceptible and inclined they are to be drawn to sinful or ungodly attitudes, mindsets and behaviors.
In all honesty DS, you don’t seem to know what true confidence is. People can foolishly be attracted to or confuse worldly “confidence” with true confidence. I always hated pride that was aired as “confidence” because I could see it for what it was. I think a lot of people don’t understand sometimes the true nature of a quality they think they’re observing or qualities that they seem to be drawn to. But as for confidence, true confidence can only be rooted in truth. It can only be found in Christ and is very different from what most people think confidence is, most people barely ever witness true confidence. What most people think is confidence and what is usually displayed, is extreme pride caused by deep rooted insecurity due to lack of identity. And honestly, no offense, the majority of the male population has serious problems here (not that females don’t too). Ego/pride is completely repulsive and unbearable, the most unattractive trait ever.
True confidence is knowing who you are in Christ, as our identities are hid in Him. A person only comes to true knowledge of themselves and thus security rather than insecurity by first knowing God . Every person has a deep longing to know, “Who am I” and someone who seems to know “the way” or the answers, makes for a good partner. The two major signals of confidence is a lack of fear and insecurity. Fearlessness and self assuredy are attractive for many reasons but fundamentally it is because it makes the person seem to possess the ability to love, as love is the absence of fear, an insecure person is self focused and unstable. Insecurity is driven by fear by not knowing God’s true character and who you are in Him, it’s a lack of identity. So you want someone who is secure and has a sense of self, this person has something to offer or bring to a relationship. They can give of themselves by being themselves. That’s the key. Someone who is insecure is unable to exhibit love and affection to others as they’re always worrying about themselves and are self-focused even when they seem to be doing acts of kindness, as their true underlying motive is self serving. They subconsciously “serve” or do nice things for others so they will like them and not feel rejected and possibly get something in return ect. So a guy who tells a girl she’s pretty can be either repulsive or attractive based on his intent. Usually if it’s a pedestal thing the guy is deathly insecure and thinks very little of himself so that is why pedestals don’t work. But if he just felt like sincerely, without selfish motive kindly and respectfully acknowledged “wow, you’re pretty” the girl would be flattered. You can feel the difference between a creep, an insecure people-pleaser and a truly nice guy.
An insecure person also doesn’t make a good life partner because they’re uncapable of facing the challenges of life well. Confidence/faith again is the absence of fear, perfect love casts out fear, so someone who has a revelation of God’s love for them and knows God intimately will walk with this kind of confidence because they trust God and are not afraid. Therefore, they’re not trying too hard to control their life (or the people in them) and that is attractive because people were designed to be loved and therefore, find the qualities of God’s love attractive. Sometimes people who haven’t undergone transformation are attracted to the counterfeit or unsanctified qualities of a good partner. For instance a man who “knows-what-he-wants” can be found attractive because we were created to be creatures of purpose with destinies. Such a person knows who they are clearly which gives them and their partner a sense of direction and purpose and brings a greater sense of security. Someone with vision is hence attractive because everyone is longing for purpose ect.
Also, truth be told, not many Christian men have those traits I listed. You said many non-attractive Christian men have those traits and that’s where you’re wrong. It seems you lack discernment and judgement. Exhibiting a characteristic or trying to practice it every so often doesn’t mean it’s really part of you. So I’d have to say, barely any men truly have such character. And being “Christian”, does not make you godly or Christ-like. It’s truly rare to find a Christian man who walks in a substantial depths of humility, purity and love ect. It’s clear to me that you operate primarily out of a carnal mind and have failed to renew your mind casting down thought patterns and reasonings that are of this world as your logic is based world views. It’s no wonder you’re single DS… I mean I was in utter unbelief when I read “Don’t listen to women about what they find attractive. They’re mostly wrong.” How prideful and foolish and deceived are you???? Please objectively reflect on your words. Like I can believe you could say something like that and not say ‘Hey, this is a ridiculous statement, let me rethink this’. You can never truly love someone that you don’t consider an equal or “as yourself”. One of the main issues of relationships… and one problem you obviously have. You think women want to be dominated and corrected from some pretentious jerk? No, a wise man who can humbly bring my errors to my attention can catch my eye because he is not afraid to be honest and can help me grow in life where a man pleaser isn’t showing me true love but hurting me in the long run. I dont need a butt kiss I need someone who will sharpen me. That’s a true partner. But a man who thinks I can’t be taken seriously and that he know more about me and my sex than I do because I’m an inferior silly woman is completely abhorrent. =you sadly.. Good luck finding a wife…
1. First, let’s get down to the nitty gritty. Quite a bit of shaming tactics in said post above. Sadly, I think she hits most of them, which indicates her egalitarian mindset is ingrained in feminism:
Women have a difficult time separating an argument from a personal attack although the vast majority of men have difficulty with this too. Having to resort to shaming tactics shows insecurity in an argument, which is ironic because it is the same thing that I am accused. This is psychological projection which has been pointed out in the ‘sphere for a while.
However, I’m curious why women tend to resort specifically to shaming tactics in particular. Whereas men tend to use many different logical fallacies if they don’t have a firm argument, women tend to resort to shaming tactics which falls under ad hominem.
Is it because women want to put down the other person in order to feel better about themselves? Or is it because they instinctively know there are innate sex differences, even if they tell themselves that there aren’t? Or is it some other reason(s)?
2. Second, the part I find most interesting is the ability of the female mind to rationalize attraction the way they want.
It’s quite obvious that there are many non-Christian men who are attractive. Why else would many Christian women try to missionary date? Or come back to God after they have had their fun? Or get seduced by the big bad jerk? Or say there are no good [attractive] Christian men? Really, there is no shortage of stories of ‘Christian’ women who do this, so reality clearly disagrees with what she is saying.
On the other hand, it is true that a godly Christian women SHOULD be unattracted to these men. However, it’s not because these men are unattractive; they are attractive. Lack of desirable traits should destroy attraction. The lack the desirable traits for marriage such as the fruits of the Spirit — humility, patience, kindness, goodness, etc. as well as fidelity, loyalty, commitment, and the like — kill any latent attraction for ungodly men if a woman is truly following after Christ.
In this respect, this becomes the faulty assumption that because such non-Christian men are “unattractive” that is taken to mean that godliness is attractive. This is clearly shown to be false as if godliness were attractive you would see non-Christian women lining up to date Christian men.
3. Third, she does make some good points on confidence, identity, and insecurity which I have written on before. The vast majority of Christian men are not firmly rooted in Christ. However, these are muddled by the incorrect conclusion.
Note that the premise is initially good and then it goes off the rails in the conclusion. God created men and women to be firmly rooted in Him: to have full confidence and no insecurity in their dreams and passions. However, this segues incorrectly to God created godliness to be attractive.
In reality, God created these “facets” of human nature — personality/power, status, athleticism, looks, money — to be attractive to women. And it was good. The fact that both non-Christian men and Christian men can exhibit those facets is not a knock against God. After all, what He created is good. It is a knock against humans that don’t choose to follow Him and instead use their talents and attractiveness for nefarious purposes.
I think Christian women who argue for that attraction is based on godliness forget that God created humans and human nature to be good and pure in the beginning. It is only through the fault of humans that it was derailed. It’s an observational truth if I admit say Jessica Alba or Scarlett Johansson is attractive although she may not be a Christian. Likewise, if a woman says Ryan Gosling or George Clooney or whoever is attractive that’s true. It is not a “sin” against God to admit that godliness is not attractive in itself nor to admit that non-Christians are attractive either.
Attractiveness is neither good or bad. However, when you equate godliness and other desirable [Christian] traits as attractive, you assume that attractiveness is good. When you assume that attractiveness is good, this leads to other heresies. For example, wives divorce their husbands because they feel unloved or unhappy when that is only a symptom of a lack of respect and attractiveness for their husband and for God’s Word. You can see how creating false equivalencies can undermine the Scriptures.
It’s clear to me that you operate primarily out of a carnal mind and have failed to renew your mind casting down thought patterns and reasonings that are of this world as your logic is based world views. It’s no wonder you’re single DS…
Because godliness is equated with attraction when the Scriptures say no such thing, the logic is twisted into shaming tactics for not being “Christian” in my thought processes.
4. Fourth, to drive the absurdity home there is one easy example to make about status and talent that is unequivocably true.
The man who plays guitar for the worship team is more attractive than the man who helps out with parking in the parking lot or helps set up the seats for sunday service.
Why? There is an inherent status and talent (which falls under athleticism) that comes with playing music and leading the congregation in worship as opposed to serving in other capacities. While they are both playing roles in the body of Christ to ensure that a Church functions at full capacity, one is more attractive than another.
This is not an example that most Christian women who falsely believe that godliness is attractive can deny. However, they may rationalize it to be something different than it is.
5. Lastly, talking about attraction seems to flip a trigger in women that it doesn’t in men.
I would say from my discussions with the vast majority of men that we understand that we are sexually attracted to women who dress like sluts and prostitutes, but that it would be unwise not to take these thoughts captive to Christ. Likewise, since men are attracted to physical appearance primarily there are many non-Christian women that are attractive but that we would not consider marriage prospects because of their lack of faith.
For some reason, this goes out the window in a discussion with the vast majority of non-red pill initiated Christian women. They cling to the fact that they believe that godliness, humility, and the like are attractive even when it has been empirically proven false nor does the Scriptures state that this is the case. The Scriptures are indeed Truth to teach us how to live, but they don’t contain all truth. God is simply immeasurably more than even His Word, and His Word is more than enough to teach us how to live. However, the Scriptures don’t really discuss attraction at all from a female’s perspective unless you count phobeo — fear, respect, reverence — from Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter 3 as the attitude that starts to stimulate attraction which may be the case.
I remember a while ago about a discussion, I think at Donal’s place, where women were relating their experiences when being around attractive men. They said it was almost impossible to resist an attractive man, especially if they were alone with him. Perhaps this is why Christian women are so sensitive about attraction because they know how overwhelming it may be if they don’t resist non-Christian men on their walk with God?
Alternatively, the most logical explanation may be that Christian women may want to paint themselves as pious and religiously devoted at all expenses. Ironically, even going so far as to lying to themselves and others about it. This is a performance based mindset which is simply not a correct identity in Christ, but I think it may be evidenced in the post above because of the amount of shaming tactics and psychological projection involved. However, although they may be “lying” to themselves I can’t tell if it’s conscious or unconscious and with or without intent. Know presents an interesting response because it ranges from everything to rebellion against God, to missing the mark, to deception. All of these things are bad, but the degree differs.
Discussion is welcome on this as I haven’t seen this topic explored that heavily from a Christian point of view. I’m curious about any other thoughts about my observations and questions here.
P.S. Whatever the case, I still would not recommend listening to women on what they find attractive as it seems they cannot consciously or unconsciously distinguish what is attractive and desirable to them. The obvious analogy being that a fisherman asks other fishermen how to catch fish not the fish.