Expectations of Christian and secular women

I was talking to one of my friends a week or two ago about some of the differences between Christian women and secular women.  We were talking about the past couple months of our interactions with Christian women and seeing where attraction led as we are both looking to get married.

To preface this he’s not RP, but he does understand women to some decently good degree. Although I have talked with him before and we disagree on some of the understanding of male-female interactions in terms of Christianity which does still reveal somewhat of a BP and/or feminized mindset. Whatever the case, I would estimate he’s at least 80% better off than the average Christian man with women.

The conversation eventually turned to expectations.

Expectations

Expectations play a major role in the phases of initial attraction when meeting a potential spouse because they serve as disqualifiers. Obviously, some are “red flags” while others can be “yellow flags.” A red flag for a Christian would be dating a non-Christian (2 Cor 6). If someone doesn’t meet expectations right off the bat, we as humans tend to categorize them into the won’t marry ever category.

Obviously, the filter that Christian women have when they meet a man is the old “is this man husband material” versus a secular woman’s “insert expectations here” where it may range from is he attractive enough to have sex with, or is he boyfriend material, or other types of things like that. The point being that Christian women compare to a higher standard right off the bat which makes expectations harder to achieve.

Don’t get me wrong. As a Christian man and talking to various Christian men, we all do this too to some extent as well. However, we know that attraction is more nebulous for Christian women and not tied directly to physical appearance like it is for men. Thus, it’s more detrimental for Christian women to initially dismiss men right off the bat for marriage material if they lack attraction to them.

Given the state of the men in Christianity, the majority of the dismissals would probably be considered right in the overall scheme of things if we are telling Christian women to only marry men they are attracted to. However, there is some sizable minority of men that don’t make the cut.

Sadly, I find myself experiencing the sad fact that I often enjoy talking to non-Christian women more because there isn’t the expectation that things must be focused on God either overtly or subconsciously. Even in this atmosphere, a sizable amount of my conversations with non-Christian women do involve some aspect of how I live my faith. Ironic, no?

However, the really crazy expectation with [the majority of] Christian women is that there is some non-verbally expressed barometer of how much she expects you to talk about God — too much or too little and she’s not interested. I’ve been on both ends of that one before. Interesting how some people think they can determine how “spiritual” or “religious” someone is about how much they talk about God. I don’t really want any part of that one.

Obviously, I don’t think I’m alone in this experience.

Expectations and atmospheres

Anyway, aside from that analysis I made the point to my friend that because women are women, the fact that Christian women have additional Christian expectations on men aside from being also attractive means that it is much easier for Christian men to talk to secular women. Men generally can sense a pressurized atmosphere of expectations when they are talking with a woman, even if they don’t overtly recognize shit/fitness tests.

This leads to the interesting phenomena that expectations that are set change the atmosphere into one where the expectations trend towards being met. For example, most men don’t have the ability to ignore expectations with pure outcome independence, so often the case is that because of the perceived expectations Christian men will end up not expressing themselves with as much confidence as they usually do moving throughout life (however much that may be). Thus, the high expectations create and warp the atmosphere around Christian women’s interactions which set up an environment for failure for men.

In other words, the more expectations you have the more likely you are to be discontent. Expectations aren’t bad in themselves. We have faith and trust in God that He will far exceed our expectations with His love, grace, and mercy. However, the majority of Christians have taken on a performance mindset which is at odds with the Scripture. Expectations combined with a performance mindset creates negative atmospheres and leads to said discontent, complaining, whining, and the like which are summed up in:

Where have all the good men gone?

“Good” being the signal that there are expectations and that men are failing to perform up to those expectations. Performance based mindsets will never be satisfied much like unrestrained hypergamy.

I’m not going to say that Christian men are immune from this as I have been guilty of doing this exact thing as well. It’s definitely something to take into account for both Christian men and women looking to get married. But as I said earlier because a woman’s sexual attraction is rooted in PSALM and not primarily looks as it is with men that women need to be aware that they can more easily self-select out Christian men without giving them a shot.

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8 Responses to Expectations of Christian and secular women

  1. Feminist Housewife says:

    I actually ran into this first, but I got distracted by your other post! As an older Christian, and it upsets me to hear that things are so difficult nowadays for young people who are trying to settle-down. My kids still have a long way to go before they start dating, but I worry about them. Isn’t that funny?

    It took me until I was nearly thirty to find the right person – that was about twenty years ago! It takes some time and some patience and lots and lots of bad dates. You sound like a nice young man, but I wonder if you’re perhaps chasing after the wrong thing. Now, it’s up to you, and maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are any of the women you’re taking out possibilities? Some of these women are very picky and others are not even religious.

    Could you do me a big favor? Could you ask yourself if you’re doing this on purpose? If you find that you are, could you please ask yourself “why?” for me? When you’re having conversations with some of these young ladies and you feel as though you must keep up an act for them, why do you think a dinner would change any of that? Ask yourself if you like being told “no”.

    From me to you, I’ve had to ask myself the same question lots of times. Humans are funny that way. I wish you well on your exciting journey to love!

  2. Feminist Housewife says:

    I thought this might be of some use to you. I like what she had to say about what she calls “pedestals” and the idea of being self-abusive. She really has a lot of wisdom! One of my divorced lady friends told me about her. The author is a divorced woman of color from England, and I’ve really enjoyed hearing her personal story! Thought I’d pass it on.
    http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/theyre-just-not-that-special-and-why-putting-people-on-pedestals-makes-them-think-they-can-do-better-than-you/

  3. A Regular Guy says:

    Maybe take some of the pressures of those expectations of right away with these EAPs (Evangelical American Princesses). Bring up the submission wives to Godly male authority early in conversation. It’s an easy topic that, unfortunately, the majority of these entitled monsters will throw a red flag up faster than you can say, “RUN!”. The silver lining is that you can immediately disqualify them and not have to deal with their (often absurd) expectations.

    FWIW, I would take no counsel from women on this matter.

  4. Mark Citadel says:

    I don’t think there should be a necessity to talk about God so much, at least not at that stage. Obviously you want a woman who is Christian, red pill, and aware of what womanhood means, but God need not impose upon the conversation like the ghost at the feast. He is not a petulant child that needs our attention, in fact, we need His!

    The thing is, if you are developing a relationship with a red pill woman, she is likely to know the game, know the politics, and know the theology, so don’t be surprised if she wants to discuss it with you (after all, this is very rare to be able to talk about such things with someone)

  5. @ Mark

    For the most part, talking about God comes up organically in a conversation. It doesn’t *need* to be talked about, but often times there is that expectation that you talk about those things.

    Unfortunately, very few women are “red pill” nowadays or even tend toward red pill if they are unaware.

  6. Pingback: Beating the obesity dead horse and pickiness | Christianity and masculinity

  7. First off I would like to say to “A Regular Guy” that a woman’s advice may have been greatly instrumental in the development of this article because that is the one viewpoint that’s absent here. And if you think that the only eligible women are the ones that delight in conversation regarding “Christian Gender Roles”, “Male Authority”, and such, then I would have to say that I am sad you’ve missed the mark. Not only does this have very little to do with Marriage and Christianity, but there are plenty of reasons that a woman might be uncomfortable with this topic of discussion. It’s insensitive and naive to throw Male dominance in a woman’s face as some kind of “test”. Women are not like men. There are things that women go through that men could never understand just as it is true for men. An abusive authoritative father, an marriage gone wrong, a man who just interprets male authority and biblical gender roles completely wrong and uses it as his excuse to completely control his wife, mother, daughter, sister. . . This is why as men, it should be more of a priority to seek out a complimenting other half and not just a submissive woman. This is i’m sure something that Mr. “Regular Guy” clearly doesn’t get.

    Now, @ Deep Strength:
    There were so many excellent points that you’ve made in this article! I think it’s awesome that you’ve touched on a man’s perspective of Christian Expectations. I think that you should certainly talk to more Christian women than you have. I think that firstly, Women are not muted sexually and thus attraction can be just as physiological and significant to women as it is to men. Modern day science has corrected this misconception that men are physical creatures and women are intellectual and emotional spectators. Now, any mature believer should ultimately find that physical attraction should never be a deal breaker-but. . . therein lies the issue of humanity.

    I also found it interesting that you somehow approached this as though men don’t hold the monopoly in expectations. Christian men have this idea of what their ideal or perfect or near perfect or good wife would be and look like. And very seldom do men step outside of that notion. Christian Men (yourself included) DO want a woman who loves the Lord. . . but in the back of your minds, thats just the opening act. you want submissive, you want virginity, you want homemaker, you want beautiful, you want supportive and helper and so much more, and quite frankly-not all of these traits you possibly want made their way into the bible.

    “A Proverbs 31″Woman is what every 21st Century Christian Man longs for.. and yet, that woman no longer exists. I’m not saying to throw away your standards. What I am saying is to update them. not to settle outside of God’s will, but to recognize there is beauty in the ashes. A woman who has been hurt by life and effected by the filth of it is STILL a woman to be honored and adored, is still more precious than rubies. Because believe me, if she were able to, she’d wipe the slate clean herself. . . But wait, that’s her husbands job. Don’t men forget that.

  8. @ Salt Life Journal

    Gotta disagree.

    Seeing how many women are disrespectful and unsubmissive in Churches nowadays single Christian men should definitely be looking out for single, respectful, and submissive women. The NT has very few passages on marriage, but of the passages it does list certain qualities and respectful and submissive are mentioned by multiple passages.

    Christian women that aren’t preparing themselves for marriage roles and responsibilities are questionable at best. After all, God’s blueprint for marriage is pretty simple: Eph 5, 1 Cor 7, 1 Cor 14, Col 3, Tit 2, 1 Pet3, and so on. We just like to screw things up by following along with the culture instead of the Bible.

    In general, such men and women that are preparing for a Biblical marriage while they are single are scarce. That is no surprise, as the number of Christians in the western world are scarce, even though many claim to be.

    Also,

    Christian Men (yourself included) DO want a woman who loves the Lord. . . but in the back of your minds, thats just the opening act. you want submissive, you want virginity, you want homemaker, you want beautiful, you want supportive and helper and so much more, and quite frankly-not all of these traits you possibly want made their way into the bible.

    1. Loves God — Jesus in the gospels quotes Deut 6.
    2. Submissive — Eph 5, Col 3, Tit 2, 1 Pet 3
    3. Virgin — Deut 22
    4. Homemaker — Prov 31, Tit 2
    5. Beauty — Song of Songs being the most prominent, Prov 5
    6. Supportive/helper — Gen 2 helpmate

    All of them made it in. Sure, you could argue about degree for something like beauty (in the eye of the beholder, somewhat). However, these are indeed Biblical traits that men should look for in a Christian woman. Didn’t even mention respect, which is a big one.

    Things which are not mentioned are college education, job status (although arguable with Prov 31), clothing/style, wealth, hair color, hobbies, sports, and so on. These things are nice, but definitely not mentioned. Women tend to care about these types of things more than men.

    This was my point in the article that Christian mens’ expectations tend to be more aligned with the Scripture than Christian womens’. Sure, there are individuals who vary from this, but that’s not the trend. Outliers are not the point.

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