I already had this on the backburner, but Ballista pulled it to the forefront. He comments:
Basically, the post they are commenting on is actually one my first posts on this blog: Practical ways to improve your attractiveness and desirability for a Christian spouse. The fact that boundless deleted that comment was partially responsible for me to start up this blog. So I suppose you can thank boundless for something.
I read through briefly, and many of the women were talking about my “independent” comment of course. Hence, this post.
Independent versus self sufficent and responsble
It is important to understand these two terms as men and husbands and to be able to explain them to women and wives.
Remember the disctinction between respect and submission? I talked about it in your attitude tells me everything I need to know. Essentially, respect is a state of the heart: it is the attitude with which you approach others. Submission is the outward fruit of obedience under authority.
Likewise, independence and self sufficience are similar. Independence is an attitude, and self sufficience and responsible are an outward state of being. However, they don’t relate together the same way that respect and submission appear.
Women like to ape masculine behaviors such as independence because they think it is attractive to men. This is false. Men generally want nothing to do with strong, confident, and independent women. An independent woman signals to a man that she doesn’t need him, and in most cases it also signals that she doesn’t want him either. It is the attitude of “I can take care of myself, AND I don’t want or need your help.” I don’t want a woman whose attitude conveys she don’t need no man because she can do everything herself.
On the other hand, men do want their women to be self sufficient and responsible. I want a woman who can take care of herself if I’m not around, make responsible decisions, be responsible with money, and other characteristics of self sufficiency. This is important especially in taking care of a household and any other future children.
When men discuss these things we almost always intuitively understand it in this way. We like women who are “independent” in the sense that they are self sufficient and responsible. We don’t like women who take the attitude that they don’t need no man and act to reflect this.
Part of what this relates to is identity. If your identity is not in Christ then you’re gonna be looking to other things to fulfill you. For example, a woman that looks to a husband primarily for emotional support is setting herself up for failure because a husband can never given the PEACE that Jesus can.
I’m unsure of why women have such a strong reaction to the fact that men say they don’t want an [strong and confident] independent woman.
I think it may be similar to how they view respect and honor as well. I discussed this some in my post Why I don’t respect women. In general, what women mean by respect and what men mean by respect are two different things. In some cases, both definitions of “respect” aren’t what the Bible defines as respect.
- Respect, Biblically, is the proper attitude towards the position of authority.
- Men tend to think of respect as something earned; hence, when women demand respect we tend to dismiss them as laughable.
- Women tend to think of respect as “worth” or “power” depending on who you talk to. The worth or value is better defined Biblically as “time” which means honor and value.
I suppose this is some natural artifact of how both men and women process the world differently. There are some parallels such as fat women being unattractive to men as a wimp is unattractive to women. However, it’s harder to pin down word usage until the comments section on posts blog up from back and forth arguing between men and women I recall a post a little while ago about men telling women to be more “open” in conversing with and flirting with men they were interested in to show interest. Another post that was similar was the one on NAWALT and AWALT.
Part of it is special snowflake syndrome. Most women want to believe they are different than other women and it makes them special. “Well, I’m strong and independent, and my boyfriend likes me and we’ve been dating for 4 months” was one of the comments in the forum.
Part of it is inability to understand themselves. Understanding attraction seems to fall into that category. Women can’t tell tha they’re attracted to power, status, athleticism, looks, and money. Perhaps they’re afraid that if they admit it they look shallow so it’s self preservation. However, being that even some of the women who regularly blog about things related to the manosphere can’t understand it that well I’m more inclined to believe its just a blind spot. Fish don’t need to know how a fisherman catches them… only that the bait looks tasty.
Anyway, just some thoughts on how men and women process differently. Not really going anywhere with it except to note that I think men and women’s understanding of “independent” are different which leads to confusion.