Her father

The reason why I’ve been silent on over the past week is that I’ve been on a trip to meet my girlfriend’s family. I thought about what to call this, but might as well call it what it is. This is more of a field report style post which hopefully is good for learning experiences.

A bit of background. I’ve been ‘dating’ or ‘courting’ my current girlfriend for about 7 months having known her about 9 months. Due to circumstances I hadn’t been able to meet her parents the entire time which in my opinion is very unfortunate. In my opinion, this does color some of the situations negatively against me later on.

edit: we are interracial. So that may make some difference if you want to keep that in mind. It doesn’t to me, but it may to her parents.

General meeting with both parents

This series of events happened at the restaurant that we went out to with both her parents, one of her sisters, my girlfriend, and I. This is going to be brief as it fills in a bit more of the background before my chat with her father.

There was a bunch of small talk that occurred, but eventually they chose this time to talk to me about my intentions about their daughter. Also, they asked me about who I was in terms of what I did, what I thought a relationship and manhood should look like, and then they brought up some things that they didn’t like that I did. I was obviously nervous during this meeting, so I stumbled through some words. I didn’t know the direct meaning of some questions so I had to keep asking for clarification.

Her mom brought up a couple things she wanted to say and that was that. Her father said he had a lot more things. Obviously, I want to grow as a man and who best to learn from the father of the woman you want to marry. I told him we should talk about it later, which we will get to the next part.

Overall, I though the process went OK. I didn’t necessarily acquit myself well in being eloquent in how I spoke about how I view relationships, and I only talked about myself and not how I would facilitate leadership as I assumed it was mostly about me. I have the hindsight of having written this entire thing after the chat though so it may color this view. I probably thought it went a bit better than it did until he commented on some things later.

The chat

I’ll colloquially name it the chat, but in reality her dad prefaced it by saying that it was pretty much going to be him just telling me about his expectations for his daughter. Fair enough. I take the Scripture very seriously in what it says about relationships, and the logical conclusions that you derive from understanding that the father gives away the bride to her husband. This is important which I will discuss later.

In general, there were 3 main things that he wanted to cover namely manhood, roles and responsibilities, and negativity. I’ll discuss these with my analysis of each of them in the context of Scripture and my thoughts.

edit: since there seems to be some confusion: everything that occurred in the chat is NOT about things that occurred in the parent-children-me meeting. Much of it occurred before this. This is true of most of these points unless otherwise specified.

  • Behavioral blunders

There was a situation where my girl and her sister were laughing about grabbing breasts. I rather impulsively jokingly grabbed my girl’s clothed breast for a brief second. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking: not the most wise thing to do when you’re meeting her family for the first time. That was obviously a mega blunder for which I apologized and promised not to do again. We all make mistakes… some dumber than others.

edit: since some are getting hung up on this let me provide more information. This did NOT happen at the dinner. Other details:

My girl and her sister were talking about things. My girl was on a lower level surface (down one stair). She accidentally grabbed both of her boobs at the same time while trying to give her a hug. They started laughing and joking about it. I was passing by and briefly did the same thing to my girl. It wasn’t a double handed grab. It was one and for half a second. We were the only ones there which also means that her sister told her father.

  • Body language

He discussed the importance of body language. Specifically, in the both parents chat the previous day he brought up some things that he thought I should work on in communication namely,

  1. Nervous laughter
  2. If I want to gather my thoughts to just say “I’d like to gather my thoughts before answering the question”
  3. And if I don’t know an answer just admitting “I don’t know” as that builds credibility versus showing you’re BSing.
  4. Couple others that I don’t recall.

As I stated before, I was nervous so apparently some things crept out. I asked for examples so I would know what exactly he was talking about.

Specifically, the nervous laughter he thought was that because I was an outsider to their conversation I was trying to fit in by laughing when they were laughing about things and other humor. Even after having thought about this I don’t really see where I did this at all. I know I have an “amused chuckle” when I think something is marginally funny that could be interpreted as “nervous laughter.” However, I am also willing to admit that I may be unconsciously doing something when I am nervous.

As I did stumble over my words in some cases and was confused at some questions I didn’t use the “gather my thoughts” method which is retrospect I should have. This is good advice. Take a deep breath and relax.

In regard to the part of saying I don’t know to some questions I’m not exactly sure where he thought I may have been making stuff up. I didn’t lie about anything I said. However, as I noted I was confused with some of the questions so maybe that came off as me trying to find the “right answer” rather than just “stating what I thought” about certain topics. I could see it from that perspective. In retrospect, I probably should have asked for more clarification on the questions even though I did some. It’s better to understand and have it spelled out for you than for someone to think you’re just making stuff up trying to find the right answer.

I think the main lesson from this category is that when you go into a nervous situation make sure to have a handle on your body language and how you communicate. It’s better to be seen as unreactive rather than having your actions be potentially interpreted as nervousness and failure to communicate well.

Now, I think some of this was colored by the next topic on pride.

  • Pride

The background behind this discussion topic is that I had previously sent a letter to her parents a couple months ago to tell them about myself and what I was doing in life as a Christian, career, in the Church. It contained many events about my life in terms of education, jobs, mission trips, and things of that nature to fill in the details about my life. At least that was my intention.

What I got instead was a monologue about pride and (paraphrased) ‘about how accomplishment don’t mean anything.’ I think my letter ended up being interpreted as a bragging point about “look about all of the things I have done and accomplished” rather than me describing details about my life. Fair enough. I see how it can come off that way when you discuss a lot about yourself it may come off as arrogant or pretentious.

Anyone who knows me in real life knows I am not like this. I never use my degrees or status as a crutch for bragging. In fact, most people I meet and become friends with don’t know I have a doctorate or do a few other things that make girl’s eyes pop out on a first date when I discuss. That’s simply not who I am. I don’t need to rest my laurels on my accomplishments. Indeed, even if I am debating I hate ‘appeals to authority.’ Arguments and evidence should be able to stand on their own without credentials.

I didn’t debate this. In post-chat hindsight I thought I should have said something about this. However, after having thought about it for another 5-10 minutes I realized that not defending myself here was the correct response. When someone is criticizing you about pride any explanation or defending yourself will be seen as pride.

Thus, if the criticism doesn’t apply and the other person thinks they saw it in you then it’s best to just let it go. I took this criticism with a grain of salt. It’s not something that I have to change because I am already willing to admit when I’m wrong and change my actions. I freely apologize for my mistakes. I don’t hang my hat on what I’ve done. No big deal.

  • Manhood and roles and responsibilities

This was an interesting discussion.

In retrospect, I think this was where he thought I might have been making stuff up from the day before. They asked me about manhood and I talked about masculinity in general. Specifically, the traits of masculinity such as boldness, strength, confidence, and the like. However, the fact that this topic was brought up in regard to manhood and specific roles and responsibilities such as spiritual leadership, provision, and protection I think I see where he thought I was just talking out my butt.

There is a bit of background behind and when I was first talking to my girl earlier this year she told me that her parents didn’t like me very much. I had no clue why to be honest. Now I understand why. In regard to provision, they teach their children to be ‘chivalrous’ (for lack of a better term) because that’s who they are. It has nothing to do with men serving women or whatnot. Completely understood.

What this manifests into are some points which he drilled into me. Some common, and some more uncommon or never heard of from my experience.

  1. Hold the doors. Common which I do but since everyone else holding them I was not going push someone out of the way to do… which in retrospect maybe I should have to be more proactive.
  2. When you’re with your girl you pay for everything on the date or food. While this is common, the part that surprised me is that there was the expectation that if I’m out with my girl and some other girls I should pick up the whole tab for everyone.
  3. You drive. Period. Most people think driving sucks, and driving is provision so you drive. My parents taught me not to drive others cars because they didn’t want me to have responsibility in case of a crash. Maybe I could have figured this out by myself, but it would have been only a small chance of that.
  4. When you get gas you pay for gas and you pump the gas. I personally have never heard of this one before, but maybe it’s more common in other places. My parents modeled that whoever is driving does the gas regardless. So I had no clue about this one, and I don’t think I would have figured it out ever.
  5. You go with her everywhere and keep an eye on her to protect her. Pretty straight forward. I usually do this, but I didn’t in a few cases so those stood out to him. I’ve admitted before that I would kill to protect my family

These were only a couple of examples. Now these were not all spelled out specifically like this, so I asked some clarification questions. Unfortunately, my questions got interpreted as “it’s not about the girls” and “it’s about becoming who you are as a man.” That part frustrated me a bit because I understand what being a man entails, but I wanted some details about specifics of what being a man in those situations entails. I wasn’t trying to make it a works based thing where I try to please women.

I was able to indicate that in some cases my upbringing was a bit contrary to that which was why the conservation was probably on the more patient and lenient side. However, it could have been better in retrospect if he acknowledged or at least stated more understanding that some things I just had no clue on.

I talked with my girl later and her mom was saying it was questionable that even if I hadn’t been taught some of these things that I should have been able to pick up on them from TV or wider culture. However, given that I don’t really watch TV and that I wasn’t really taught much about relationships I’m not sure how I could have. Indeed, I mentioned to her that most of my male friends had very little relationship advice given to them, and then I asked her about if her friends talked about relationship advice given to them from their parents. Obviously, the answer is no.

So my conclusion is generally that her parents are an exception — in a very good way — but I think they may underestimate how much parents aren’t really involved with their children’s lives especially in the context of relationships.

  • Negativity

I like hypothetical questions because they show thought processes and attitudes. Attitudes are a good proxy for the heart. Anyway, he really laid into me (read: ‘fucking stupid’ and ‘unbelievably dumb’) on this hypothetical question namely:

Do you think a father should ask for a paternity test after his wife has a child? Framed as a question of “trust” versus “truth” or “both.”

I attempted to explain that it was a hypothetical question after we started discussing it, but he was having none of that.

The main gist that I glean from his analysis is that it’s an affront to the character of your wife, and it is also an affront to the character of the man who raised your wife. Basically, if you don’t trust your wife you shouldn’t marry her. Even saying the question is bad because it drives a potential wedge that’s there and can fester into something worse.

Fair enough. That is true. I didn’t think it was a big deal since it was a hypothetical question, and I said that I wouldn’t ask for one. However, I can see how even bringing up a question like that could destroy a relationship by undermining trust just as a lie would.

  • Serious topics versus getting to know someone

This was not discussed much with her dad, but I could see where he was hinting at it. I discussed this mainly with my girl later.

Essentially, I recommend vetting strongly (one) (two) (three), but from discussing it with my girlfriend the getting to know each other part of the relationship was a bit lacking compared to serious questions. Part of this is that we were unable to get significant amounts of face to facet time earlier on in the relationship. This led to what I would call a long term to short term imbalance in regard to getting to know if someone is right for marriage versus growing the relationship.

When this occurs what you will experience is likely that the girl you are ‘dating’ or ‘courting’ will feel like she is more of a list of traits that you’re looking for rather than someone you love and want to marry. This analogy is similar to comfort and rapport or similarities versus differences as I outlined in A detailed timeline and how-to guide on the process of finding a wife. In simpler terms she feels more like an object rather than in a relationship.

In extremely long term retrospect I think this is one of initial things that colored her parents opinions of me negatively. Personally, I continued to facilitate good communication with her through March to May and we cleared that up. However, I think her parents were and may be still under the impression that I’m looking to get married rather than have a relationship.

This is what may have colored their view of my letter to them negatively. Instead of being more informing about who I am, the fact that they may think I think of their daughter as a list means that me listing stuff off in the letter was prideful. In other words, they may have thought I am a list of accomplishments looking for another list in a woman to get married.

That’s a false impression, but I can see how based on this whole thing it may come off that way.

Conclusions

In regard to my specific situation, there were 3 main things that I came away from this discussion with family and father.

  • There are some places I blunder and messed up. The only thing you can do is learn from your mistakes, apologize, and never do it again. Obviously, this is pretty straight forward, and it is what Jesus expects of us as Christians.
  • There were some points of criticism where I felt I was completely mischaracterized. The pride example is one of them. In these cases, what I ended up learning from it is that it’s best not to defend yourself. If it’s untrue then it’s no big deal. I know my character and who I am in Christ so when someone has the wrong perception of me I don’t need to defend with words. I simply need to exhibit who I am through my actions. I think this is one of the most frustrating things because you know it’s false but defending yourself only proves the point to the other person.
  • The expectations of manhood and interpretation of spiritual leadership, provision, and protection. I was also frustrated about this but not to the degree of being mischaracterized. The main thing I was frustrated about is that I was being held to a standard of expectations that I wasn’t aware of. Once I know of them and the fact that some of my prior upbringing was in direct contradiction to what he viewed as say Biblical provisioning then I have the opportunity to change how I act.

Now, think it needs to be made clear, just in case, that her father is not a mean or came off as abrasive. Her father and parents in general came off as wanting to protect and have godly relationships through strong boundaries.

This is very important to understand for men who are searching for attractive, virgin women because in almost all cases their parents and especially father have a very strong role to play in her upbringing and expectations within a relationship. He is very principled and very direct about what he believes. As a man in a relationship with his daughter I am fully willing to abide by their expectations to become the man I want to be. Not for her father, not for her, not for her family, but for myself. I didn’t think provisioning could be seen that way, but indeed it can and I want to do that.

At the end of the day, it would have been nice to be understood, but it really matters more what I do about the expectations I was made aware of. Some things I may not have a problem with that I can just chalk up to getting to know me better like pride. Some things need to be learned through trial and error such as boundaries. And then once expectations are known you can choose what to do about them.

Philippians 3:13-14 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I suppose this is where the rubber meets the road for most men. I know it’s been said multiple times in various blogs, but if you want patriarchy you have to be willing to submit to and thrive under it’s principles.

I think the overall conclusions that you can draw from this post are:

  • Make sure you are engaging your woman in a relationship. Generally, vetting questions are good during the relationship and as a build up, but don’t forget about nurturing the relationship itself. This will help you give better first impressions too. It’s easier if you get more face to face time than I did though.
  • Carry yourself well. Make sure you can communicate clearly and effectively when nervous. Control your body language. This doesn’t just apply to women but also her family and everyone.
  • If you’re being misunderstood don’t argue. Prove it with your actions not words.
  • Understand that and submit to the fact that daughters are under the authority of their fathers. This means that you have to engage them man to man to show yourself trustworthy.
  • Eliminate negativity or even perceived negativity. Not just from lies but from hypothetical questions that can undermine trust.
  • Understand that each day you choose the man that you want to become. This includes doing what you doing because of who you are and not because you want what you want. Part of this is understanding your identity in Christ and part of it is knowing the difference between performance and desire.

And last of all, learn from my mistakes.

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72 Responses to Her father

  1. Pingback: Her father | Manosphere.com

  2. jeff says:

    Not to flame you, but shouldn’t you have been asking him the questions?

    Is he a christian? Remember the old? The husband chose the wife, not only that they consummated the marriage before the celebration just in case she was chaste or the parents proved chastity before consummation.

    His question of fraternal testing in essence is the same as proving chastity. I would have said a clear YES it is ok.

    TRUST some of us old guys that are in christian HELL right now. Do everything you can to make sure YOU are not going into this FOR HER, but she is going INTO IT FOR YOU.

    Not to be rude to the future father-in-law, but HE IS NOT GOING TO BE LIVING WITH HER UNTIL DEATH DO YOU PART. You will NEVER meet THEIR expectations… NEVER. They may say how great you are to family and friends and they may truly love you, but to them you are a dime a dozen and there is someone who could be better.

  3. stickdude90 says:

    To be honest, after your “behavioral blunder”, I’m very surprised the father even spoke to you at all later. Joking or not, apology or not, clothed or not, grabbing your girl’s breast in front of her parents would be an immediate deal-breaker for me – speaking as the father of a 16 year-old daughter who will soon have to deal with this from the dad’s side. If you’re willing to do that in front of me as the father, what are you willing to do to/with her when we’re not around?

    That must have been an incredible apology, because you really dodged a bullet.

  4. @ stickdude90

    It was not in front of her parents. I also didn’t describe all of the details around the situation in this post, so that could have factored into the equation as well. However, that’s not a defense.

    If it was then what you said may have been correct.

  5. @ jeff

    Not to flame you, but shouldn’t you have been asking him the questions?

    Is he a christian? Remember the old? The husband chose the wife, not only that they consummated the marriage before the celebration just in case she was chaste or the parents proved chastity before consummation.
    His question of fraternal testing in essence is the same as proving chastity. I would have said a clear YES it is ok.

    Yes, I will do so at a later date.

    Yes, he is a Christian.

    TRUST some of us old guys that are in christian HELL right now. Do everything you can to make sure YOU are not going into this FOR HER, but she is going INTO IT FOR YOU.

    Not to be rude to the future father-in-law, but HE IS NOT GOING TO BE LIVING WITH HER UNTIL DEATH DO YOU PART. You will NEVER meet THEIR expectations… NEVER. They may say how great you are to family and friends and they may truly love you, but to them you are a dime a dozen and there is someone who could be better.

    I have vetted her thoroughly enough that I am 100% confident. I don’t say that lightly given the past few discussions on vetting.

    You are correct about expectations though. We’ll see if that’s the case when I go back to meet them again in a month or two.

  6. stickdude90 says:

    @DS

    It sounded from the post like it happened at dinner in front of her parents.

    Since that’s not the case, I can downgrade it from “epic mistake of Biblical proportions” to “bad move – don’t do it again” levels.

  7. ChildofRa says:

    Anyway, he really laid into me (read: ‘fucking stupid’ and ‘unbelievably dumb’) on this hypothetical question namely:

    Do you think a father should ask for a paternity test after his wife has a child? Framed as a question of “trust” versus “truth” or “both.”

    I attempted to explain that it was a hypothetical question after we started discussing it, but he was having none of that.

    The main gist that I glean from his analysis is that it’s an affront to the character of your wife, and it is also an affront to the character of the man who raised your wife. Basically, if you don’t trust your wife you shouldn’t marry her. Even saying the question is bad because it drives a potential wedge that’s there and can fester into something worse.

    I am a bit torn between this answer, on one side I agree with how you responded but then another part of me is like well what if she cheated and lies to you and say the child is yours. I mean you hear about situations like that alot in this day and age; Kayne West even put it in a song
    ” It’s something that you need to have
    ‘Cause when she leave yo ass she gon’ leave with half
    18 years, 18 years
    And on her 18th birthday he found out it wasn’t his”

    As for the gas station thing, the only thing I can see is if the dad is refering gas stations that are not well lit. I live in Georgia and many of the gas stations I have seen are not well lit and many are near bushes and woods and it would be easy for a rapist to grab a women and take her.

  8. @ stickdude90

    Oh, haha, no it definitely wasn’t during dinner or lunch. It was randomly during the day.

  9. stickdude90 says:

    My thoughts on the “chivalrous” expectations:

    1. Holding the door. Pretty common. If someone from the party in front of us is holding the door and I’m at the lead of our party, I’ll start holding it so he can join his party, but I don’t see myself shoving him out of the way to do so.

    2. Paying for everything – this might be different for me because I’m older. I always pay for the first couple dates, even if she offers to split the check. After that, it depends – if she wants to pay for something once in a while (and I know it’s not causing her any financial hardship), I’m not going to argue with her. However, I’m always ready to pay if she doesn’t offer to – I never expect her to pay.

    3. Driving – I’ve never heard of a “the man must always drive. Period.” rule. I tend to drive more often than not, but I don’t really see it as a “failure to provision” if she drives once in a while.

    4. Paying for/pumping gas – the only time we’ve been together at a gas station was on a road trip. Since I was the one paying for the rental car, I paid for the gas (but she paid for most of the meals on that trip). Generally, I would expect whoever owns the car to pay for the gas, even though I will always pump it. I consider that a normal day-to-day expense, and I wouldn’t pay for gas for her car any more than I would make her house payment for her. Obviously, if and when we get married it becomes “our” car and “our” house payment, so that’s no longer an issue.

    5. Go with her and keep an eye on her – this one makes sense.

  10. stickdude90 says:

    And I’m with dad on the paternity test question – I was married for 19 years, am a dad to 2 kids, and never for a millisecond considered getting a paternity test for either one. In fact, I would have been highly offended if a friend had ever mentioned it – just asking the question really does cast aspersions on the wife’s character.

  11. lgrobins says:

    “…just asking the question really does cast aspersions on the wife’s character.”

    I agree and if DS says he is has vetted her thoroughly enough to be 100% confident, I don’t see how its relevant and certainly not a good idea to bring up on a first meeting.

  12. @ stickdude90

    Good to see some other perspectives.

    Have you heard of anything like paying for gas/dates/driving from the perspective of all of the women (if you’re the only man there) and not just your girl?

    That was one I never even really thought of and could just be the way they do things.

    Also, thanks to everyone for the thoughts on the paternity test question. I hadn’t thought it from the parental perspective before, but it makes sense even from a hypothetical perspective.

    Do ya’ll think there are any other “questions” to avoid?

  13. @ lgrobins

    I agree and if DS says he is has vetted her thoroughly enough to be 100% confident, I don’t see how its relevant and certainly not a good idea to bring up on a first meeting.

    The timeline is a bit off.

    It was not brought up in the first meeting. This was probably 4-5 months of knowing her and 3-4 months into the relationship. However, even knowing we were discussing marriage attitudes and topics it still made a rather large impression.

    This was also before I was 100% confident, BUT I don’t necessarily have to ask that type of question to vet. I’d still be confident without asking that as a hypothetical.

  14. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    Yikes, that must’ve been a rough week! I’m glad that’s not something I’m likely to be subject to deal with. That seems to be one of those things that women have much easier than men, even if the first meeting with a man’s family is scary.

    But anyways, there’s one good thing about this: they didn’t boot you out of the picture, and now you have a much better idea of what to expect, and of what makes them tick. So you’ll likely have a better second meeting!

    I’m somewhat confused about the paternity testing: did you ask your girlfriend the question hypothetically, and her Dad was mad about the fact that you did? Or something else?

    I must say though, if my hopefully future husband were to consider paternity testing without me being the one to suggest it (not that I would have a reason to suggest it), I would be awfully upset at his lack of trust in me. The only time I would think it justified is if a husband catches his wife red handed (say, comes home and finds another man in their bed), or if a baby couldn’t possibly be his (say, a white couple having a baby that’s obviously got black genes).

  15. @ FBNF

    I’m somewhat confused about the paternity testing: did you ask your girlfriend the question hypothetically, and her Dad was mad about the fact that you did? Or something else?

    Yeah, I asked her hypothetically and she talks with her family as she should. Support networks are important.

    Before I asked I already knew I wouldn’t do it, but I was interested to see the answer(s) since it was an interesting hypothetical question. I did play a bit of “devil’s advocate” taking the opposing view, so that might have exacerbated the [perceived] situation somewhat.

  16. hearthie says:

    I thought you were planning on marrying the girl too…. hm. 🙂 Well, if continued vetting/relationship building worked out.

    Seriously. You are so blessed, even if things didn’t go perfectly. I don’t think it’s weird to have some vague tension between potential in-laws and potential spouses, especially when things come down to the line. These people care about their daughter and no doubt have high expectations of her. So they also have high expectations of you. That’s normal and healthy.

    FWIW, all families have their own mini-culture of expectations, which makes the first year or two of marriage full of “entertaining” moments when those cultures clash. S’normal. Every married person you know has stories!

    I was going to say it would be weird to have my BF pay for all my friends, but actually my then-BF now husband tended to pay for everyone, including his friends… so that actually was normal. For him, not for every male I’ve ever met. I’d say you probably pay for “us” when you become an “us”, and sometimes that will include the posse and sometimes not. Likely to make people uncomfortable nowadays, I’d expect. Depends on the circumstance, for sure. I drove him everywhere for almost a decade, so I won’t speak to that. It’s nice, but wayyyyyyyyyy old school. I’m 42 and I think that’s old school. Protection for me is huge. I consider it a chivalrous thing – I will protect children and the elderly, and I expect able-bodied males to protect me if they’re around me. Not as courting behavior, just as decent human being behavior. I live in a military town, I know it shows. 😉

    If you look at those questions – consider that they all boil down to provision and protection. That man wants to know that his daughter is going to be safe and well cared for. He might make you nuts as a son in law, but darn proud to have your sons look up to him as a grandfather.

    For a funny protective moment of my own consider that my grandfather came, walked in and around and then out of *every house/apartment I’ve ever lived in since I married* without staying for so much as a cup of coffee. He just wanted to make sure that his granddaughter was in a good place. My husband is a good bit like my grandpa… and I couldn’t say a nicer thing about either of them.

  17. stickdude90 says:

    Have you heard of anything like paying for gas/dates/driving from the perspective of all of the women (if you’re the only man there) and not just your girl?

    Never, ever heard of that one. I don’t even see how that would fall under the umbrella of “provisioning”. If you do marry, you’re only expected to provide for your wife, not your wife and all her friends.

  18. @ stickdude90

    Never, ever heard of that one. I don’t even see how that would fall under the umbrella of “provisioning”. If you do marry, you’re only expected to provide for your wife, not your wife and all her friends.

    In general, going out would usually entail my girlfriend and her sisters and myself if anything so that may be where it comes from. Family. However, I did ask for clarification, and the impression I got was not just for family but from men to women.

    I’ll chalk it up to what hearthie said about it being the particular values of this family.

  19. @ hearthie

    Thanks for that comment.

    It seemed as much to me, but its very nice to hear someone else actually say it, especially:

    FWIW, all families have their own mini-culture of expectations, which makes the first year or two of marriage full of “entertaining” moments when those cultures clash

    The fact that they are strict about it means they care about both their daughter and being clear about their expectations of me means they do care about the relationship and it’s interactions.

    I definitely understand the cultural clash though. I haven’t really discussed this before but we are an interracial couple, so I do think that plays a role especially in terms of upbringing.

    We shall see where this goes because I do still intend to marry her. I’m sure there will be some more entertaining updates to come.

    Also, your other post in comment to mind was good. I haven’t found the time to discuss it yet though.

    If I don’t end up getting to it hearthie had a good post on the whole vetting topic here if anyone wants to read it:

    https://hearthtobelovely.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/the-absence-of-malice/

  20. jonakc1 says:

    you are real lucky dude…
    boob grabbing and they knowing about it…
    if I was the dad….

    if you can so easily grab her before even being married and with others around
    it makes one wonder, what kind of character you have…

    obviously I myself have lots of flaws.. but
    wow you are so lucky

    if I was the dad, I would be haviing long conversation with my daughter that night…

  21. Looking Glass says:

    Interesting.

    Firstly, I think the actual biggest mistake was the letter. (You might have thought to get a second set of eyes on it, though) You should have called to setup a time to chat on the phone. It’s much better than a letter. And it actually wraps together much of the friction: he was trying to judge your Character, though he wasn’t very direct about it. Letters don’t allow for direct responses (and we don’t live in a letter-writing society anymore), so it’s a really awkward situation. But the main thing really is that the ability to judge character is a person-to-person interaction.

    So if anyone reading this ends up in a similar situation, here’s the trick: Call during the day to get a hold of the Mother. Set up a time when all 3 of you can chat on the phone at some point in the future. That way there is only one “cold call” and everyone can be prepared to chat. I actually learned this trick from my journalism experience, but it works really well. (It’s also a good Business Practice) Plus it has the side benefit of giving the Mother the first direct impression, so, if you acquit yourself well, you can start to turn one of the parents to your side. (Or, older Women love attractive Young Men paying attention to them. This stuff always works, folks!)

    The talk with the Father and the Pride issue is one that it really would depend upon tone. I can take a lot of flack, but impugning my integrity will always get a hard response from me. So the responses, and suggested responses, would be completely down to tone. It’s still a Man-to-Man conversation and certain levels of respect are to be expected.

    The theoretical question is a pretty easy explanation. “Smart Man Syndrome” was showing through. 🙂 But I really would have suggested using a different topic to highlight character. Women are going to take any “theoretical” question and run it through their own experiences first. That filter was going to get applied when it got back to her family. So bringing up a theoretical wasn’t bad, but that one was always going to be taken poorly. It’s in the same category as “deeper” Theology, you can’t expect most people to understand where you’re coming at the topic from. Granted, I’m honestly not sure what question I would use to accomplish the same result, but I’ll think on that one.

    On the personal level, I don’t view it as much of a theoretical, as any children I’ll have will get certain genetic testing right after birth. So it’s an assumption it would happen anyway.

    The “boob grab” story was one of those “I really shouldn’t have said that” responses. You were trying to fit in and tell a personal story, but you really shouldn’t have said that. Apologize and move on.

    Okay, the gas bit. Every family has it’s own rules on how that’s handled. Considering my health issues, it’s not something that comes up much, but everyone (and every region) has a different take on the matter. That’s just one of those you have to learn. (Though it’s one of those things you don’t think about.)

    The driving bit isn’t much. I can see why that would be “the way it should be.”

    The “paying for everyone” bit strikes me less as a chivalrous policy and more of a reaction to history within the family. That policy will limit inviting others out (which suggests some of their extended relatives are/were very poor), but I can see reasons it would happen. I don’t think it’s a wise policy, but it’s not like there’s some Biblical principle either way. Cultural stuff is cultural stuff.

  22. Looking Glass says:

    Oh, and for the future, I would put a “cost per plate” limit if you’re taking “others” out. Hard & fast cost rule are very important, and it sets boundaries.

  23. jack says:

    Re: Dad the Inquisitor:

    This guy is a monstrous headcase.
    Reminds me of a similar event DG wrote about a while back.

    “Dad” finally gets to strut a bit, and having a chance to AMOG a little, probably for the first time ever. It’s like watching someone get drunk the first time, just embarrassing.

    What we have here is someone with serious white knight impulses, since holding doors even makes the list of things worthy of discussion. And paying for not just her, but whomever else comes along? This guy is a freakshow. I’m surprised he doesn’t require you to address princess as “M’Lady”. Let this be a lesson to you – next time, be ready to confront and rebut. I would have had this guy chasing his own tail, although I am much older than you. This guy is administering shit tests worthy of a feminist. I can see why it caught you by surprise.

    Let me give you an example of frame control:

    Dad: “Have you ever viewed pornography”.
    Boyfriend: “That is not an appropriate question for this conversation.”
    Dad: “it certainly is.”
    BF: “If I answer that question will you also answer it?”
    Dad: “I’m asking the questions here.”
    BF: “If her future husband should be porn-free, then it is just as important for her father to be porn-free. I’m sure you can see why.”
    Dad: “You insolent little shit!”
    BF: “You are her father, not mine. We are equals here. Treat me with respect, I will return respect. I’m not going to sit here and pretend that an inquisition is a conversation.”

    As far as the nervous laughter and “making shit up”, I would stared at him with an expression the implies “oh, wow, really? wow, just wow, you’re nuts.” What is he, a fucking life coach now? What an ass. This guy is on a serious power trip, which tells me that is probably not the one wearing the pants at home. Real alphas are way more casual than this. Truth.

    This dude deserves only the amount of respect he gives. He is not your father, and not your elder. And if you are serious about this girl, you are going to need to learn to out-maneuver him sooner rather than later. If you don’t, he is going to mentally masturbate with his juvenile AMOGing for-freaking-ever. Such routine antics and evaluations will make you emasculated in her eyes. I hope you can see the danger here.

    Realize the nature of your mistake here – it was a failure to hold frame, not the failures he listed. Now go put “dad” in his place next time. You got owned because he sucker-punched you. Next time, be prepared for the ambush. And never meet on his turf until you are the dominant male IN HER EYES.

    And grabbing the breast? Yeah, maybe a mistake. But don’t apologize. Just shrug. Apologies compound the issue, rather than mitigate.

    And all the tough-guy dads on here beating their chests about “if you had done that with their daughter”, get real. If your daughter is over the age of 20, there is every chance she has initiated sexual contact worse than that. The boob grab was at least a sign of dominance.

    You would all do well to realize that a good Christian man who at least displays a moment of healthy make sexual interest is waaaaay better than a kneeling, pleading beta who meekly submits a request for “a light, but playful grasping of thine breast”.

    Lolozlozlzol.

    If my daughter’s boyfriend didn’t do anything worse than that, I would just chuckle. Loosen up.

  24. jack says:

    Here is the bottom line – you are very interested in making sure she was raised right. He is very interested in making sure she is well taken care of.

    He considers your character to be deserving of evaluation. Yet he considers himself above question. Only an arrogant prick would operate from this viewpoint. He needs a lesson in humility. Perhaps if he coaches you on “bragging” you can coach him on learning to be humble.

  25. hearthie says:

    Stupid “culture” story, fraught with far less tension than holidays, that has zero to do with anything real. When we got married, my husband’s mom cooked with butter and put margarine on the table to eat. My mom cooked with margarine and ate butter. DH didn’t like food made with margarine and I wasn’t eating it on my vegetables – so…. we went to butter only.

    The reason you can’t find and pre-discuss all of the weird little bumps is because there are so many. They’re just assumptions you have about reality. Gosh. The fuzzy salsa story… Anyway. Everyone assumes that the way they do it/their family does it is the “only true way”. And that’s folding towels and what time to come home from parties and a million other things. This is why character matters, why love matters, and why you need to have patience and a good sense of humor.

  26. feeriker says:

    @ Jack

    You nailed it. This guy’s balls are in his wife’s purse. Plus 100 too to your hypothetical conversation. The only thing I would have added to to it would have been this:

    BF: “How old is your daughter?”
    Father: “You know how old she is!”
    BF: “I certainly do, but apparently you don’t. Given the way you’re talking about her, I’m surprised that you’re not on your phone to the cops right now trying to have me arrested for statutory rape. You obviously seem to believe she’s still 13 years old.”

  27. Pedat Ebediyah says:

    While I agree with Jack wholeheartedly, I realize that you were in a rather precarious position that can only be understood by people who have had been exposed to interracial family dynamics, the challenges, the tension, the stress, and, in your case, the obvious shit tests that come with it.

    And…while we realize the importance of Patriarchy and the need to submit to it, it’s the out of pocket paternalism of the Father that would have gotten his ass lit up – respectfully, of course.

  28. jack says:

    It is possible to mock and scold with silence, and that is probably the safest out. The worst is continuously qualifying to the dude.

    What DS needs to do is become more alpha than her father, and if that means putting him in his place, so be it. How many times have we seen pure-as-the-driven-snow Christian girls abandon all their father taught them to pursue some worldly alpha male? Answer – like, alllll the time!

    I subordinate myself to no woman’s parents. If I marry her, she is my wife, no longer under your charge, guidance, or authority. If this was the 1700s and you were marrying your 14 year old daughter off to an 18 y.o. guy, then perhaps a more stringent line of questioning would be in order. But not when the guy is a full adult.

    Learn to say “GFY”, with silence, but with enough deniability to avoid a total conflict.

  29. Looking Glass says:

    As I said in my first comment, there’s a “tone” issue that we don’t know about the set of conversations with her Father. That’s why I didn’t go the place jack did, even if it’s something to be mindful about. We have a situation where both Men were treading new ground, and I’d be curious if her Father might not have gone further than he normally would go. Any Man can over-react, so I think it’s wise to wait for more information from DS.

  30. jack says:

    Fair enough. But I call out of bounds on the life coaching he did. Srsly “nervous laughter”? Total power-play. A lot of people would be off their game in that situation. That is not something you criticize on first contact. The dad doesn’t know enough at this point to be confronting over petty issues like that. First meeting is purely get-to-know time.

  31. Pedat Ebediyah says:

    I’m also sure DS was being respectful, even in his re-telling of events. Remember that our God is sovereign and if DS is throwing shade on the Dad on his Blog, then it could be an issue, as things like this never go away.

    I personally think DS is being charitable, and I’m cool with that.

  32. Looking Glass says:

    Like I said, I can see it being both ways. DS could have been shooting himself in the foot because he was too tired and the “nervous laughter” might really have been off-putting. Or it could be a complete power-play. I try to be mindful of pronouncements about situations without significant details. I’ve caused problems before when I didn’t have enough information, so I like to be careful.

  33. @ jonakc1

    Seems like people can’t get around the boob grabbing so I’ll provide more details.

    My girl and her sister were talking about things. My girl was on a lower level surface (down one stair). She accidentally grabbed both of her boobs at the same time while trying to give her a hug. They started laughing and joking about it. I was passing by and briefly did the same thing to my girl. We were the only ones there which also means that her sister told her father.

    Make of it what you will.

  34. @ Pedat Ebediyah

    I’m also sure DS was being respectful, even in his re-telling of events. Remember that our God is sovereign and if DS is throwing shade on the Dad on his Blog, then it could be an issue, as things like this never go away.
    I personally think DS is being charitable, and I’m cool with that.

    Correct. Since this post was about her family I asked her to read it before I posted so I wouldn’t mischaracterize anything I said since she knows them better.

  35. jeff says:

    I am in 100% agreement with jack:

    No husband ever doesn’t trust their fiance/wife 100% in the beginning, but has doubts later on and THEN wants a paternity test, so the obvious answer is No don’t want a paternity test (now).

    This guy screams of “if you were a man like me”. Is he a pastor by the way? Tough enough to belittle other men with disrespect must mean he is a “real” man.

    DS, I know you vetted her, but really the future f-i-l needs to be asked questions and you kind find out what an ass he is.

    As an example, my father in law knew what women are like and asked me if I was sure, that I should think about it. Not for his daughter’s sake, but both of our sakes. He was an Alpha to the core and I wish I would have gotten to know him better. He was an older dad who past away from cancer, WW II POW who did hand to hand combat and was shot in the knee for trying to escape for a 3rd time. He saw it all and knew AWALT.

    The comment about the porn is right on. Give and get respect. Hold your frame now or forever be the dweeb son in law.

    Believe me when I tell you (and this goes doubly for gamma husband/fathers), HE WANTS TO MAKE HIS DAUGHTER HAPPY BY HIS WIFE. IF THAT MEANS BEING BETA TO YOUR ALPHA FRAM………HE WILL SUBMIT TO YOU!! I have seen this over and over and over and over.

    Daddy will not want to be the one CAUSING the conflict, so he will end up submitting. I have friends that are Delta, but Alpha-ed up to the f-i-l and did not allow them to be pushed around. Mother in law would be all over father in law if daughter (wife) tells mom.

  36. @ LG, jack, feeriker, jeff

    It didn’t come off as AMOG although I can see how you would think that. Given that their expectations are things they actually do themselves, they’re not actually being hypocritical on these things. Everything her father said to me he teaches to his boys and does himself. His balls are certainly not in his wife’s purse. It’s simply the culture of the family like hearthie said.

    The behavioral stuff I appreciated since I’m sure *some* of it was true. But I think their lens of me was already colored from earlier in the relationship and the letter so they assumed that things were actually worse then they are. Like I said, I think some of the “nervous laughter” might have been just my personality to chuckle at things I find halfway amusing. I talked to my girl after that chat and she thought I handled myself well and didn’t do anything out of the ordinary for the meal, so that means it’s probably a perception thing.

    I don’t know if I said this in the above post, but it felt like they were criticizing a version of me from earlier in March rather than the relationship that I have with their girl now in September. Obviously, part of that is because I hadn’t gotten to meet their family until now which is why I believe they have a good heart on the matter. They see me from a past lens and not how I actually am now.

    However, given that if they do get to know me better and the same things still occur then that would signal to me that there are potential issues.

  37. jeff says:

    By the way, love the blog brother. I do not know if you are catholic. I grew up catholic and jesuit school. I do not practice RCC any more and would love to see (if you are not RCC) a blog on why most RCC and definitely the organization itself is not christian… No one else dares to approach that on ANY of the manosphere blogs.

  38. @ jeff

    I suppose you could call me Protestant.

    In general, I believe that the body is widespread between different denominations, although perhaps < 10-20% in each church and much less depending on denomination if we count the standard as what Jesus said: "If you love me obey my commandments." I don't doubt RCC and eastern orthodoxy are the same way.

    Any denomination whether Prot, RCC, EO, etc that has tradition that contradicts Scripture has upheld Pharisaical laws (or rather man-made laws) over what God has said. Jesus got on the Pharisees case for that a lot.

    I think we should recognize that for many of the denominations that they have practices which can be useful if you recognize that they help keep your focus toward God and the good example of how we should live of Christians that have went before us. However, they can easily become a stumbling block when approached from a works based mentality.

  39. thedeti says:

    I haven’t been through all the comments.

    Thoughts.

    –It’s kind of refreshing to see a dad care this much about his daughter to interview her suitor/boyfriend specifically for the purpose of determining the BF’s suitability as a husband. The way he went about this was quite offputting though. This sounds like something that would happen 100 years ago. I am sure it’s because we live in a much different world now, than we did then.

    — Dad is wrong about the paternity testing. DS, you should get DNA testing on your kids anyway. We live in a different world. You MUST protect yourself. No two ways about it. We’ve seen too many men who thought they’d vetted their Christian wives too and they’ve washed up on the manosphere’s shores after a frivorce or her affair.

  40. @ thedeti

    –It’s kind of refreshing to see a dad care this much about his daughter to interview her suitor/boyfriend specifically for the purpose of determining the BF’s suitability as a husband. The way he went about this was quite offputting though. This sounds like something that would happen 100 years ago. I am sure it’s because we live in a much different world now, than we did then.

    Yep, those were my thoughts. He definitely cares, but it was off putting from my perspective. Then again he doesn’t know me that well and there are a lot of dishonorable men out there.

    Re: paternity testing.

    Like he said, I wouldn’t marry her if I didn’t trust her. I have nothing to worry about because I have gone through great lengths to discuss and evaluate her character.

    It might help to know that he did tell me that if the child did come out not half [insert my ethnicity here] or if there was suspected adultery that I should get the paternity test done. It’s not like he was being super unreasonable about it.

  41. thedeti says:

    The way this kind of “dad vetting the boyfriend” process with me was something like this, but was much more subtle. I’ve never dated a woman with any degree of seriousness where I had not met her dad. Usually, the dad would undertake the same function by just sitting down and making small talk, chit chat about me, my family, my life, where I was from, what I wanted to do, etc. Sometimes we’d do something together, like take a walk, take a run, run an errand together, or go to a bar and talk over drinks. I’d get asked more or less similar questions but not in a formal way and not in a “bash you over the head” way.

    In retrospect, I can tell the dads were feeling me out to see if I was a criminal, a reprobate, a slug, a do-nothing, a spineless jellyfish, a drunk, an addict, a spendthrift, a cheat, etc. It was just done in a much more subtle way.

    Your girl’s dad had no right to ask you anything about some of the things he did. He had no right to ask you about using porn, or your past dating history. His input about your mannerisms was rude and ill advised. He also has nothing to say about any testing you might do of your children in the event you marry her. He’s entitled to his opinion; but he’s not entitled to share that opinion in an offensive way.

  42. thedeti says:

    Also, DS, I know you’re not at this point yet, but… it’s vitally important to set down boundaries with in laws. It’s very important that a man expect the respect of your father in law. The Father in law must, at the very least, respect the boundaries of the marriage and not intrude into it. For example, if you marry his daughter, and you decide it is best to have paternity tests of your children, your FIL has exactly NOTHING to say about that. He can be offended; he can stomp his feet; he can be angry. He just cannot do it in your home or to you or to your wife. Because when you marry her, she’s no longer his daughter; she’s your wife. He has no right to enter into the bounds set down by the marriage.

    I have had to do something like this with my own FIL; where when Mrs. deti and I had gone through a lot of difficulty in our marriage, my own FIL asked me a lot of pointed questions and raised concerns about what was going on. I had to hold out and say, in effect, “it’s none of your business” and “you have no right to interrogate me about this or anything else” and “your interrogation of me is not appropriate”.

    I didn’t say those words of course, but I did have to project that attitude and bearing.

  43. @ thedeti

    Your girl’s dad had no right to ask you anything about some of the things he did. He had no right to ask you about using porn, or your past dating history. His input about your mannerisms was rude and ill advised. He also has nothing to say about any testing you might do of your children in the event you marry her. He’s entitled to his opinion; but he’s not entitled to share that opinion in an offensive way.

    He didn’t ask about porn or past dating history. That’s only some of the things the commenters said as an example.

    The mannerisms I felt was a rash judgment though.

    And yes, I know about boundaries that need to be set down. However, they don’t need to be set down yet when I’m still getting to know them as they are getting to know me. If there’s consistent patterns of intrusive behavior sure. But based on my interactions I don’t sense that to be the case.

  44. anonymous_ng says:

    DS, it’s so easy to sit on the sidelines and offer critiques as well as to offer advice from the perspective of advanced years. I can’t imagine how well I’d have handled sitting down with my ex-FIL at 23 yo.

    What this reminds me of is going on a job interview when your savings are gone and you haven’t had an interview in months, versus when the job market is booming and your phone is ringing off the hook.

  45. Maea says:

    The meeting with the parents was obviously an eye-opening experience (yikes). But there’s something to remember. Your girlfriend is partially the woman she is because of her parents, and that’s a good thing.

  46. Pingback: Some Scattered Thoughts | Donal Graeme

  47. Cane Caldo says:

    I thought you might be interested in the perspective of someone in a jackass AMOGing father’s your girlfriend’s father’s situation.

    -Behavioral Blunders

    You really should not have grabbed her boobs. I must assume you know, but…in front of her sister, too? It’s poor impulse control, poor judgment, and lack of respect all rolled into one. It was really boneheaded; especially because family was there to witness it and you knew that. In your defense: No patriarch could guess you’d do something so stupid and inappropriately familiar. He wouldn’t grab his own wife’s boobs in front of family. He’d have to assume you were raised by uncircumcised philistines, failed to appreciate the seriousness of the joke/transgression, and lost yo damn mind. And it’s one of those emotional things that colors everything else.

    The good news is that he accepted your apology and promise; which you did right to make and should keep. Even if you won’t remember it, or he never sees you may believe that your girlfriend/wife will.

    -Body Language

    Him giving you advice on body language et al should, I think, be taken as a good sign. He respects you a little, and made suggestions to make that grow. And, his advice was just plain good! That’s not AMOGing, but mentoring. It’s what leaders are supposed to do.

    -Pride

    Had I been in your shoes, I would have taken that moment to be dead honest and say that I wanted them to know who I am, and that I wanted to impress them but didn’t know how and I was nervous so I just listed my accomplishments. I wouldn’t have apologized, but instead used that as an opportunity to talk man-to-man. It’s not like Her Father has been trained to do this, either.

    -Manhood Roles and Responsibilities

    Are they Southerners? Many of us don’t let allow our wives to pump gas if we are there. Nor do we (later) want to be left in the car full of screaming kids. Your parents modeled that whoever drives pumps. No problem: The husband drives. What her father told you–in code–was that driving is a safety issue, and safety issues are too important to trust to women if there is a man around.

    Women can be crack shots, but if there’s one gun, a man, and a woman: The man gets the gun. We are with cars a lot more often, but the principle is the same.

    I disagree with the notion that you have to pay for friends of your girl, but that’s not a hill to die upon. I would just say that I will remember he said that, and when you are married you can set your own rules.

    Though, let me add that his approach puts the onus on the guests to be gracious in kind, and appreciative. That’s not a bad place to be. If you are taken advantage of it’s not the worst thing in the world. If it costs you $20 to find out your friends aren’t genuine: It was worth the price.

    -Boundaries

    A lot of your commenters brought up establishing boundaries with Her Father. It doesn’t sound to me like he crossed any boundaries, and that you in fact made an egregious transgression with his daughters tits–in front of his other daughter–and you were forgiven. Those comments about fighting back and showing Her Father that he’s not boss of your life are totally wrongheaded because he’s not trying to become boss of DS. He’s trying to establish who DS is, if he’s worthy, and throw in some advice along the way. Fighting back, then, isn’t fighting back but actually initiating war!

    Don’t get drawn into a game of prisoner’s dilemma where you withhold respect, or challenge his. You will lose even if you get the girl. If she chooses him, you obviously lose the girl. If she chooses you then you have lost a girl worth having as she will have proven herself an unreliable woman.

    Overall, it sounds like you acquitted yourself reasonably well. Time will tell. With women, you never know what they are saying to each other when you can’t hear. That’s another reason to do your best to connect with her father. You both could probably use an ally.

    I am very grateful that you posted this. It reinforces my belief in the idea of engaging my children’s interests soon and often. There’s a lot of difficulty here because getting to know each other had to be collapsed over a week, and after a lot of time and heart has already been invested. You and Her Father met over a high-stakes game where everyone has serious money in the pot. I’d much prefer to play checkers first.

    He didn’t ask about porn or past dating history. That’s only some of the things the commenters said as an example.

    Yes, and don’t let those fears fester in you. You didn’t mention Her Father embarrassing you. That’s a good sign that he understands one man can give respect without diminishing his own.

  48. Don Quixote says:

    Dear DS. I hope things go well for you with this girl. Keep in mind your possible future FIL is most likely reading this.
    @ The father of the girl: Read this blog, there is some good stuff here.

  49. dvdivx says:

    Interracial how? Your black, she’s Asian. you’re white? Makes a difference. More so than any other question. I have a mixed race marriage (she’s Japanese I’m white) but her father was accepting, kind of. Their son however had an arranged marriage with a Japanese woman. That’s how old school Japanese they are, Mexican v white may not even be mixed as some Mexicans are pretty white.

    If my daughter marries someone East Indian I’d be very disappointed. The country is a cesspit (dead people mixed with trash a common sight) and the culture compete with the whole caste system is sick. It also is a place where gang rape is a very real possibility for white/east asian women.

    If it’s where dem white women at, I’d just leave without any questions. To be blunt. Africa (Nigeria) makes even India look like paradise on earth. Not to mention Detroit or other cities. It would also make the paternity test question just plain weird. I have grown too tired of groups of angry blacks calling for the death of whites getting ignored by everyone. And if someone says rapist (stranger attacking ‘random’ victim) what race is involved, oh yes, black rapist white victim. Again ignored by everyone.

    I used to think race didn’t matter, then I had a chance to travel to a variety of countries. That’s why the “immigration crisis” in Europe is just a code word for invasion. Until you’ve lived in the middle east you have no idea of that mindset. Yes some of them are nice but they won’t raise a finger to stop your daughter from getting raped or your throat cut.

    This everyone is the same crap doesn’t match reality. Race matters, cultures matter and religion matters. Europe will find that out the hard and painful way. The reality of rape rates in Sweden going from the lowest in the world to the highest in Europe was directly because of the flood of Somali immigrants. You can only hide from reality for so long before it’s pathological.

    To just throw out well we’re an interracial couple like it doesn’t matter is to ignore the elephant in the room. It does matter.

  50. Elspeth says:

    Second much of what Hearthie said.

    My father was a hard case as well, and if the relationship my husband and father now share is any indication, it’ll be fine. Of course, as has been noted above, a lot of the tension was specifically because a lot of time and heart had already been invested.

    My husband, in retrospect, says he appreciates the hoops my father attempted to make him jump through. Hopefully you will feel the same of your future FIL one day.

  51. jack says:

    I still hold that it is way too early in the game for life-coach talk.

    Body language? Laughing? Total lack of chill there. Such nit picking is not a sign of someone who is operating with smooth social skills. The AMOGing may be unintentional, but it is still there. Otherwise, I have to call it something akin to nagging, which is even worse, being a female trait.

    And this:
    “She accidentally grabbed both of her boobs at the same time while trying to give her a hug. They started laughing and joking about it.” This was not a boob grab out of the clear blue.
    Obviously the sister snitched. Dad should have let that slide. I sure would have. Watch out for sis is the other lesson here.

    There is no greater white knight I know of than devoutly religious fathers toward their daughters.
    By the time a Christian girl is in her mid twenties, the odds are very good that she has probably already engaged and *gasp* initiated, contact of a sexual nature that goes beyond boob grabbage.

    When you look at the data of sexual activity among even evangelicals (let alone “catholic girls”), the picture is clear: only a handful of Christian dads need delude themselves into thinking they are Guardian of the Virgin’s Chastity. I wonder what lies these dads tell themselves as their purity-ringed daughters head off to college and start missionary dating and engage the “anything but” boyfriend-retention protocol.

    Christianity in the US needs a total renovation.

  52. Pedat Ebediyah says:

    My stomach turns when red-pill manospherian Christians talk race. *sigh* It’s NEVER edifying.

    But I digress…

    My 22 year old daughter knows how me and her mother roll, and I can already see how that’s shaped her associations with all of her friends. They see me coming, and their parents see me coming too.

    And speaking of parents, I’m always going to ask the young man about his parents. In Mayberry, USA, (small town where all there is ethnic minority tribalism) if they were raised here – either myself or her mother are going the boy’s people, and I WILL use their parents world views and associations as a filter into the quality of the young man.

    DS, you didn’t mention it, but did the Father ask you anything about your family of origin, other than what people typically ASSUME about other races of people?

  53. Pedat Ebediyah says:

    “By the time a Christian girl is in her mid twenties, the odds are very good that she has probably already engaged and *gasp* initiated, contact of a sexual nature that goes beyond boob grabbage.”

    I agree.

    And so it this somewhat provides fullness to some things that the ladies shared with me on Hearthies page yesterday on one of soliloquies about faith…

  54. Cane Caldo says:

    I must have missed the part where this was explained to be an interracial relationship, and I don’t know who is what, etc.

    @Jack

    By the time a Christian girl is in her mid twenties, the odds are very good that she has probably already engaged and *gasp* initiated, contact of a sexual nature that goes beyond boob grabbage.

    This is true within a pile of demographic data, but DS isn’t visiting the family of demographic data. He was visiting a particular woman’s family.

    There is no greater white knight I know of than devoutly religious fathers toward their daughters. […] When you look at the data of sexual activity among even evangelicals (let alone “catholic girls”), the picture is clear: only a handful of Christian dads need delude themselves into thinking they are Guardian of the Virgin’s Chastity.

    Chastity is just part of it. Those handful who aren’t deluding themselves are guarding the whole daughter. Hence the rules about driving, chaperoning women, etc. that Her Father talked to DS about.

  55. @ Anonymous_ng

    Yeah, it’s always good to see some perspectives of others who are older and especially the fathers. Gives good insight that I may have missed.

    Your analogy is funny though and seems to fit.

  56. @ Maea

    Yep, they obviously care which is a good thing, and their influence has helped shape her into the godly woman she is today which is good.

  57. @ Cane, dvdivx

    I said that we were an interracial couple in the comments. I have not commented on what though, and I’m going to keep that private for now. My extended family is already fairly racially diverse with aunts, uncles, cousins and other relatives marrying black, jewish, asian, white and others so it is normal. She is from a mixed family as well. It makes no difference to me, but I suppose it may to [her] family but given both our backgrounds I doubt it.

    Regarding the boob grabbing I clarified the OP.

    This was not at the dinner. My girl and her sister were talking about things. My girl was on a lower level surface (down one stair). She accidentally grabbed both of her boobs at the same time while trying to give her a hug. They started laughing and joking about it. I was passing by and briefly did the same thing to my girl. It wasn’t a double handed grab. It was one and for half a second. We were the only ones there which also means that her sister told her father.

    People were filling in the details making it seem “worse” perhaps than it was even though it’s still bad form.

    The rest of the commentary was good. I took it in a similar way seeing that he actually cared about what he was trying to teach even if it came off brusquely.

    Unfortunately, I wasn’t quick to think on my feet for the pride situation, but since that was a bit later in the conversation I had already kind of gotten the hint that it was better to keep my mouth shut instead of clarify my position. That’s because any of my clarifications were being taken as defensive rather than wanting to be understood from the position of where I was coming from.

    I do not believe they are southerners, but her dad was in the military and faced some war action. That may give further insight to the manner in which he approached this as well as the provision and protection.

  58. @ Elspeth

    My father was a hard case as well, and if the relationship my husband and father now share is any indication, it’ll be fine. Of course, as has been noted above, a lot of the tension was specifically because a lot of time and heart had already been invested.

    My husband, in retrospect, says he appreciates the hoops my father attempted to make him jump through. Hopefully you will feel the same of your future FIL one day.

    Haha, that’s what I’m expecting. The first meeting is always going to be somewhat like hostile negotiations especially between the men. I don’t mind that and I almost think it’s to be expected in some ways, especially with how camaraderie between men is always about tearing down to build up.

    Good to hear it worked out for you, and hopefully it will for me too.

  59. @ jack

    “She accidentally grabbed both of her boobs at the same time while trying to give her a hug. They started laughing and joking about it.” This was not a boob grab out of the clear blue.
    Obviously the sister snitched. Dad should have let that slide. I sure would have. Watch out for sis is the other lesson here.

    Well, on the one hand I would have liked it if her sister just straight up told me what she thought. I discussed it later with my girlfriend privately, and obviously I knew I had blundered by then and apologized. The information about her sister telling her father to tell me came later. However, given that if we actually want Patriarchy then it’s probably best for women telling their men and then for the men to handle things between men.

    To be honest, I’m surprised the boob grab (read: not boobS) has been quite the topic of contention in the comments. I thought about not including that in the OP but decided for it since it’s good to learn from mistakes, and I’m not afraid to admit when I’ve made them.

  60. Pedat Ebediyah says:

    @DS

    “To be honest, I’m surprised the boob grab (read: not boobS) has been quite the topic of contention in the comments. I thought about not including that in the OP but decided for it since it’s good to learn from mistakes, and I’m not afraid to admit when I’ve made them.”

    It’s a visceral response to what a typical Father would consider to be an egregious and unseemly act. You know she and her family better than we do, but still, some people simply don’t play that, in the same way I’ll punch someone, no matter what their faith or creed is – in the mouth – about slick racial talk, and I’ll take it out with the Lord later.

    I asked my daughter, once, if she were a virgin, and once I received my answer, I asked her to let me know if it changes, and she laughed out loud. Dads are just like that.

  61. @ Pedat Ebediyah

    Seems to be the case.

    The fathers are saying he wasn’t extreme enough, the single men are saying it’s not that bad, and the women just glossed over it not wanting to be embroiled in controversy.

    All is right in the world, haha.

  62. Pingback: Blogging Again | younggodlywomen

  63. hearthie says:

    LOL. Okay, my DH wrapped his hand around my thigh a couple of times in front of my dad and it made me super uncomfortable. Y’all think we don’t know it’s a territorial thing? We know. Which is why, “yay cool” in front of other women, your friends, peers, etc – and “stooooooooop” in front of our folks.

  64. stickdude90 says:

    Look at it this way – if Dad didn’t bring a shotgun to dinner, you’re already light years ahead of any future men my daughter might date. 😉

  65. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ stickdude90

    Look at it this way – if Dad didn’t bring a shotgun to dinner, you’re already light years ahead of any future men my daughter might date. 😉

    Hopefully you’re joking; both for the young men’s sake and for your daughter’s sake. You want her to be able to marry, don’t you?

  66. stickdude90 says:

    Of course I’m joking.

    Although there was that time growing up… My dad and I had gone duck hunting that morning, and we were in the living room where he was cleaning his shotgun. There was a knock on the door, and he got up to answer it, shotgun in hand – because he didn’t want to set it down mid-cleaning. Well, it was my sister’s then-boyfriend at the door – the look on that poor kid’s face when he saw my dad holding a shotgun was priceless.

  67. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    ….the look on that poor kid’s face when he saw my dad holding a shotgun was priceless.

    Awwww, bless his heart! “poor kid” is a bit of an understatement! lol

    I’m glad you were joking about your own shotgun, though.

  68. SFC Ton says:

    I would have nexted him and her. Sounds like a goodly sized load of entitlement coming down the road. Especially with paying for gas an her friends. Pedestal. And the security thing is over blown unless you are in the third world or Detroit.

    I get it’s the father’s duty but all sounds over the top. Way over the top.

    Good luck to you Deep.

  69. Maea says:

    I don’t think it’s up to us to decide whether any of it’s over the top. DS made wise choices in getting to know this woman, and from the sounds of it he’ll be engaged soon. The father was simply doing what he’s supposed to do– advise, provide counsel, and correction. What DS chooses to do with it after marriage is at his discretion. When you marry a person, you marry them and the family. Is it charitable to blow off everything his future FIL says because he disagrees? I’m not sure that’s conducive to bringing back a patriarchy.

    DS said he’s in an interracial relationship, and I wouldn’t be surprised if his gf is Asian (based on the father).

  70. jonakc1 says:

    you know what
    everyone makes mistakes
    it is great you found a girl who is Godly and supports you

    just read an article saying that husbands and wives are to equally support each other
    http://www.boundless.org/blog/what-marriage-might-do-to-your-big-dreams/
    in some weird gender neutral way…

    thank Goodness men and women like you who are Christian still exist!!

  71. ChildofRa says:

    My dad asked me if i was a virgin and decided to have the sex talk. However what made it weird was yes i’m a virgin and i was 24 at the time and my mom already gave me the sex talk at age 9.

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