Real men don’t love strong women

This article has been going around. I finally got a chunk of time to tear it apart because of the misused Scriptures. Let’s begin.

I’ve heard it too many times: “A man likes a quiet woman.” “Guys don’t respond well to smart girls.” “Educated women are too intimidating to attract good men.”

I understand why we believe these things. It’s a nice story. It makes sense of the success of some women to find husbands, and the failure of others. As Christians (and as humans), we feel very clever when we get to diagnose the cause and cure of singleness. “You’re too opinionated.” “You’re too boisterous.” “A woman should be small, and quiet, and delicate.”

Yet, it’s easy to forget in the midst of all our diagnosing: whether a woman is “intimidating” is a factor of male perception, not female personality. Do we want women to be less intimidating? That’s a question to be put to men who experience them as such, and we can only wait for such men to grow. The real question we need to ask is: Do we want women to be weak? And the answer must forever be, on the basis of Scripture, “May it never be.”

You could read the first paragraph and determine that this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Look at what the Scripture say about which qualities wives should cultivate, especially toward unbelieving husbands:

1 Peter 3:1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and [a]respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right [b]without being frightened by any fear.

Men don’t respond well to women who are not cultivating godliness. A lack of godliness leads to a nagging, contentious, and rebellious wife. The ‘real reason’ why men don’t respond to so-called smart and educated women is because they believe that being smart and educated makes them better. This inflated importance leads to more nagging, contentious, and rebellious. Funny how that works.

Male perception and not female personality is flat out incorrect. The Scripture tells what kind of personality and qualities wives should have, and it’s not the one he claims. Not being ‘strong’ does not mean weakness. It’s a false dichotomy.

Not withstanding, let’s take a look at the “examples” given which supposedly support his points.

1. Strong women expose evil men.

I can’t speak for Christian men everywhere, but I can speak for myself, and for many of the men in the Bible: Godliness is attractive to both men and women (Proverbs 31:30). And often, godly femininity requires being strong, even intimidating. Consider Jael in Judges 4. Jael’s husband Heber “had separated from the Kenites,” and “had pitched his tent as far away as the oak in Zaanannim, which is near Kedesh.” […]

Thank God Jael wasn’t meek and submissive and respectful toward this friend of her wayward husband. She wasn’t one to be trampled on. Strong women reject the requests of evil men.

First, we know that godliness is not attractive (at least sexually) to both men and women. That has been covered before.

The author makes interesting presumptions here such as stating that  making peace with an oppressor is wayward and becoming a friend with the enemy. We know from the beginning of the chapter that the Israelites were sinning against God. Perhaps her husband had separated himself from the rest of the tribe because they were sinning. Thus, the Lord would have given peace between the oppressor and one of his righteous while he used the oppressor to punish the wayward Israel.

We know that God uses other rulers to do His will. For example, when the Israelites were returning from captivity in Babylon, the rulers of Babylon looked upon them with great favor and peace. God gave Solomon favor and peace with the surrounding nations. Abraham made peace with some nations and warred with others. It’s an interesting assumption to believe that He was wayward because he made peace.

We simply don’t know all of the surrounding circumstances. However, we do know Jael was given this “honor” because Barak refused it when he did not want to go to war without Deborah. It was to Barak’s shame that the Lord delivered Sisera into a woman’s hand.

That doesn’t fit the narrative he’s trying to draw: namely, women should be unsubmissive and disrespectful like Jael. As we know, the Scripture clearly counsel against that in 1 Peter 3.

2. Strong women rebuke good men.

When David set out to kill Nabal — the brash and brute man who embodied pure masculine folly — Nabal’s wife Abigail offered hundreds of fig cakes and loaves of bread and wine skins to David. Yet, she uses the opportunity to warn David that he should “have no cause of grief or pangs of conscience for having shed blood without cause or for my lord working salvation for himself” (1 Samuel 25:31). In other words, Abigail warned: “Be careful. Don’t use your power in a way that will make you guilty.” […]

David was attracted to this strong woman for her strength, for her rebuke, and for her character. Abigail made life harder for David. And David, in a moment of grace, was able to see that Abigail’s standing in David’s way was a gift of purity to him. That day, David was seeking salvation for himself, but it was gifted to him by God in Abigail, who, even while she was at his mercy as his subject, told him what he needed to hear.

Strong women rebuke good men, who need help in their weaknesses, who need someone to help them see how to be strong.

I have seen the story of Abigail taken out of context by feminists (who call themselves Christians) so many times. Let’s look at the full context, shall we?

  1. David is roaming around the countryside and even acts to protect the shepherds of Nabal safe during that time (v14-17)
  2. David sends servants politely to ask for food (v2-8). Unlike in our culture, given the customs and law of Israel, receiving strangers is an honor for households.
  3. Nabal rejects and disdains David’s protection of his people and has no sense of hospitality (v9-11)
  4. David, seeing as Nabal is repaying good with evil and decides to act against him. As we know, the Lord hates repaying good with evil. (v12-13 + 21): “Now David had said, “Surely in vain I have guarded all that this man has in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that belonged to him; and he has returned me evil for good.”
  5. Abigail intercedes knowing that the Lord was with David and that David is an arm of righteous punishment (v18-22).
  6. Abigail is willing to take all of the blame (v22-25).
  7. Abigail suggests mercy instead of judgment as mercy is more beneficial to both of them (v26-31).
  8. David praises her for her logic as it was able to convince him to stay his hand (v32-35).

Unfortunately, as we can see, the story does not fit the narrative which the author is trying to portray, namely “Strong women rebuke good men, who need help in their weaknesses, who need someone to help them see how to be strong.” In reality, David is not rebuked by Abigail. David was not weak, and Abigail did not show him how be ‘be strong.’

In fact, David’s actions were justified because Nabal was repaying good with evil. However, Abigail was considered righteous because of the points mentioned in 6 and 7. Abigail was willing to take all of the blame for her husbands actions (v24b — On me [l]alone, my lord, be the blame). She didn’t try to justify his evil and even brought a gift of appeasement. Likewise, Abigail suggests mercy instead of judgment. Judgment is what was deserved, but mercy can triumph over judgment. In fact, mercy, like grace, can only triumph if the full guilt of sins is made known and acknowledged by the offender (also, see Parable of the forgiven servant). This mirrors repentance, not a rebuke.

This clearly shows Abigail’s righteous actions, and it has nothing to with the false narrative of David being rebuked, being weak or the deficiencies of her husband.

3. Strong women raise believing men.

There is no stronger, more consistent reminder of the gospel in my life than my mom. Paul says something very similar of Timothy: “I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well” (1 Timothy 1:5).

In an ideal world, men and women would partner together in their strength. But we live in a world where we need strong women to make men strong, because sometimes there simply are no men there to do it. My mom’s dad died when she was nine, and my own dad wasn’t present in my life enough to be a father. So she did the work of two parents — the work of two disciplers — for both my sister and me. With Timothy and Paul, I’m so glad that God gave us these gifts of strong women to survive the inconsistent presence and consequences of “strong” men.

Of course, some of the godliest mothers have had some of the ungodliest children, and vice versa. But in an age when fathers often fail to bestow the gift of faith to their children, the future often hangs on the strength of women to do that gospel work.

Whether as children or their disciples, strong women raise believing men.

The funniest part of this point is that the wrong Scripture is quoted. The Scripture is actually 2 Timothy 1:5 not 1 Timothy 1:5.

Secondly, yes, women and mothers can help men grow up in the faith. On the other hand, the author, again, reads into the passage to fit his narrative that “we need strong women to make men strong.” As we’ve discussed multiples times on this blog before, women do a very bad job at teaching men to be men. The main irony is that Paul is writing these letters to Timothy because he did not have a strong Christian masculine presence when growing up. Hence, Paul is teaching Timothy how to be a leader in the Church. That’s what these letters to Timothy were for in the first place!

Of course, when we’re trying to fit the feminist narrative of “it takes a strong mother to also be a father,” it’s quite obvious how we can warp Scripture to fit an agenda. It’s a simple fact of nature that mothers cannot be fathers. Just look at the terrible statistics on suicide, education, mental disorders, substance abuse, and the like on fatherlessness. That is why, ideally, children have both a father and a mother. God created it that way.

This is, by far, the worst stretch of the three points the author attempts to make because it plays into the typical trope of building up mothers as fathers while implicitly tearing down the importance of fathers and fatherhood all in one. It’s a steaming pile of… poo.

The Beauty and Strength of FaithWe live in a time when women are outperforming men in many areas of professional and personal competency. And men have two choices: to find female strength captivatingly attractive, or to be insecure and intimidated. Real men love strong women, because God’s glory is beautiful, and “woman is the glory of man” (1 Corinthians 11:7).

Jesus, give men the grace to see the beauty of glorious female strength. Give women the resilience to remain strong long enough for the right men to find them beautiful for the right reasons. And help men and women to fall in love with proven, genuine faith, which is “more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire” (1 Peter 1:7).

Lol.

Aside from the 1 Peter 3 passage, which I already mentioned before, Titus 2 is the other passage that talks about most of the responsibilities of wives.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may [b]encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

I don’t see anything about strong women here. 1 Peter 3 and Titus 2 encourage these qualities:

  • 1 Peter 3 — Chaste and respectful behavior; gentle and quiet spirit
  • Titus 2 — The behavior is love of husbands and children (Greek: philos not agape), workers at home, and subject to their husbands; the qualities are pure and sensible.

I don’t see ‘female strength’ being ‘captivatingly attractive’ nor an actual quality that should be emphasized by wives in the Scripture. In fact, female strength is specifically not encouraged as the qualities that wives are to exhibit are opposite that. Chaste and respectful behavior, gentle and quiet spirit, pure and sensible.

Edit: as noted in the comments, the word we are looking for women to be is virtuous such as the woman in Proverbs 31. Virtuous is not synonymous with strong. This ‘strong’ woman that the author advocates is disrespectful and unsubmissive which is against the Word of God.

In fact, one can only say that the author has gone off the reservation. In the words of Paul:

1 Timothy 4:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not [d]agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he [e]has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that [f]godliness is a means of gain.

2 Timothy 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of [b]godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as [f]Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

Let’s pray he doesn’t lead anyone else astray. If he sees this, let’s pray he repents.

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28 Responses to Real men don’t love strong women

  1. Pingback: Real men don’t love strong women – Manosphere.org

  2. Wizard Prang says:

    Looks like you nailed it.

    Biblically speaking, strong women are able to resist temptation, drama, and the call to rebellion. They have been trained from the cradle not to allow themselves to be pulled along with the cultural currents. A young, chaste woman who is looking for an “all-or-nothing” marriage to a strong man to whom she can joyfully submit to will have no shortage of suitors, and her insistence on nothing less will chase away trifling men. But that is not what is on offer. Most women are more afraid of the disapproval of their peers than they are of remaining forever unmarried.

    These days, however, the word “strong” is used to describe women who are bossy, brassy, bitchy and trying to compete with men at every turn. Most decent men are turned off hy that approach, and the only ones who will even bother are Cads, players and PUAs.

  3. Zhuo says:

    Good post as always. I need to chew on this as John Piper posted two articles that relate to this, and somewhat (at least to me) contradict them. But again, good food for thought as always.

  4. Zhuo says:

    Also, I feel like some of this debate might be semantic. As Wizard Prang pointed out, women, like all Christians, are called to resist temptation. Does that mean they are to be “strong?” Anyways, I’ll need to think more on this. But that being said, since we’re looking for women to complement men, and men are the ones who are supposed to be overtly “strong”, I guess a meek woman would be best to complement them.

  5. @ Zhuo

    It’s not semantic.

    The correct term is virtuous. Proverbs 31 is somewhat of an idealized version of a virtuous wife.

    The “strong” woman purported by the author is not in any way synonymous with “virtue” as I have pointed out.

    Remember, we are commended and rewarded by God for fulfilling our particular roles and responsibilities… not the other spouses. Wives are judged by God if they respected and submitted to their husbands, cultivated chaste and respectful behavior, a gentle and quiet spirit, were pure and sensible workers of the home, etc. Likewise, husbands are judged by God according to their headship, love, protection, and provision.

    It’s not even really a “complement” as that would mean each spouse is really fulfilled/completed by the other. As Dalrock has pointed out, complementarism is a compromise between feminism while trying to stay away from egalitarianism.

  6. Looking Glass says:

    @Zhuo:

    “Strength of Character” is a concept lost on those that live in the world. This is why it’s a bait & switch approach with the words. Being obedient to the Word is strength, yet that’s what no one of the world (or more Christians) expect of any Woman.

  7. Matt says:

    I have an IQ of 150. I prefer a woman who is in the same range. I will only settle for a woman who is strong enough to take on some of the load of building a family and having a home. I want a woman who I can have deep discussions with about the future, not one who blindly follows me.

  8. thehaproject says:

    Zhuo said: “As Wizard Prang pointed out, women, like all Christians, are called to resist temptation.”

    Actually, Scripture does not call Christians to resist temptation. We are instead called to flee from it. The very nature of temptation is that we are weak against it.

  9. Looking Glass says:

    @thehaproject:

    Make like Joseph and feel from the Whores.

    Note that Joseph still ended up paying dearly for it, for a decade of his life.

  10. @DS

    Thanks for your work here, this is a fine rebuttal to a deceitful article. Like you, I had some “friends” post this article on facebook and the endorsements and “likes” were overwhelming, even from people that I thought should be so gullible. . As I pointed out there in the facebook comments, strength /strong has two predominate meanings, power and the degree at which a characteristic is expressed. A woman could be strong in meekness for example. But that is not what the author intended, rather the gist was strong in rebellion. (my take)

    The title alone is hurl-worthy. Real men is a male shaming tern used by women and their enablers to deride forms of masculinity that they do not approve. Strong women is also a term that connotes the more common “strong independent woman”. The author is a biblical contortionist as you have demonstrated, cherry picking a few narratives and jamming them into a feminist framework where they do not contextually fit. The shaming tactic is that if a man does not approve of feminism than he is not a real man or something less than authentically masculine. The irony is that men of God find women who are strong in their independence and role rebellion the same way Hosea found Gomer and Christ finds the apostate church.

  11. Jacob says:

    I have an IQ of 150. I prefer a woman who is in the same range. I will only settle for a woman who is strong enough to take on some of the load of building a family and having a home. I want a woman who I can have deep discussions with about the future, not one who blindly follows me.

    Translation: Look at me, I’m smarter than you, therefore Scripture must be interpreted according to my specifications.

    Isn’t pride the sin God hates most?

  12. @ Matt

    Helping build a family and a home is a responsibility of women in the Scriptures.

    Deep discussions and 150 IQ is for sure a preference which I wish you luck with. There’s only about 50,000 women out of 300,000,000 population (.0016% of the population or 1 in 6,000) in the US with 150 IQ. It’s a small pool, and there’s no guarantee that any of them fit your other criteria which makes your pool of candidates exponentially smaller.

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2016/05/men-women-and-intelligence.html

    The only poor part of your comment is the old blind follower feminist trope. If you threw in doormat or oppression I would’ve given you bonus points. It’s a lame false dichotomy.

    A wife under authority of headship is not a blind follower. She chooses to follow the husband’s lead.

  13. Matt says:

    It’s not pride, it’s just a matter of finding someone compatible. If you have ever dealt with someone who is considered “slow” by societies standards, you have some idea of what dealing with ordinary people is like for me. Many of the folks I deal with are truly wonderful people who I care about, but constantly having to rein myself in can be a challenge. In fact, a woman who is considered a high functioning autistic would likely be the best match for me. I’ve met a few and they are much easier for me to communicate with.

  14. feeriker says:

    In fact, a woman who is considered a high functioning autistic would likely be the best match for me. I’ve met a few and they are much easier for me to communicate with.

    Just because MOST of us guys find “strong” women objectionable doesn’t mean all of us do. If guys like Matt like sass, attitude, one-upmanship, contentiousness, and challenge of their God-given authority by soneone who thinks she deserves the upper hand at all times, who are we to dissuade him?

    Chac’un a son gout…

  15. Looking Glass says:

    I honestly thought Matt was a well programmed troll-bot, given how wooden the first comment was. (Might still be a troll, so honest is still an open question.)

    As to that discussion, my IQ is higher and I have had little trouble dealing with most people, even relationships with Women in the 7-8 range. (Wife is a separate issue.) If your writing is similar to the way you come across in person, your issue isn’t the intelligence; you simply need to go learn better social skills. And Skills they are. They’re fully learnable and just take some work. It’s little different than learning another language, as its a form of human communication.

    Now, when it comes to being the smartest person in the room, that’s a bit easier. The nice part about being smarter than the “smart guys” is you actually learn what really matters: Not Raw Ability but Skills. When you understand how important skills it is to have skills, it is quite easy to appreciate others, regardless of their intelligence.

    Granted, conversations are almost always better in my head than the version that happens in real life, but that’s where learning some Grace is vitally important. But few people are truly boring, it just takes some work to get it out of most people.

  16. Pedat Ebediyah says:

    @Matt,

    I had to learn – and accept – as you will, about the limitations of people, and what we should expect from the women in our lives. In particular – wives.

    No matter how smart she is, she still has to follow you, operate in her scriptural mandated role as help meet, work her measure in the Body, and stay in her metaphorical lane.

    As DS explained….good luck.

    Not only that, if you did find a woman with an IQ that high, you can rest assured that she has rationalized the fear and knowledge of the Most High completely out of her sphere of influence.

  17. SnapperTrx says:

    I have learned that pretty much any article that starts with ‘Real Men…’ should be immediately discounted as trash -er, present article accepted. Those written by men are often feeble attempts by the author to reassure everyone (or maybe just someone) of how great they are as a man because they do X, Y and Z. Those written by women – well, they are often just mindless drivel tossed into a laundry list of things THEY want to see men do without question. When I saw this particular article on Facebook amongst my group of family and friends it got the expected ‘likes’. I read it so I could be sure my response was correct, then I pointed out that the guy was performing feats of scriptural acrobatics, and his article was crap.

  18. Wizard Prang says:

    @Matt

    The wording of your post suggests that you are not married. I am therefore going to proceed on that assumption.

    You believe that a high IQ and the ability to have “deep discussions” makes a good wife. First of all, 150+ IQ women are rarer than men, as Dalrock pointed out. They will be in short supply, high demand and such women are likely to be *extraordinarily* picky. Good luck.

    While it is vitally important to agree on core values – money, children, religion etc – the issues of the day are ultimately unimportant. Her values and her character are more important than her political views, and even those will change in time. As the old joke goes, the difference between a Liberal and a Conservative is about twenty years. A high IQ is no guarantee of her ability to homeschool children.

    You seek an equal partner; I hope that you find what you seek. But you speak with the “conventional wisdom” voice of the culture. And judging by the culture wars that rage around us, Marriage 2.0 does not appear to be working out very well. This is hardly surprising; two-vote democracies can never be as effective as benevolent dictatorships.

    This is not about “blindly following”. It is about authority and responsibility. It’s more of a Captain/First Mate dynamic.

    When you have been married for twenty years, come back and tell us how that worked out for you.

  19. Jacob says:

    @Matt

    Fair enough. Sorry if I misunderstood.

    I too have a high IQ and have similar difficulties. But do our personal wants necessarily mean that is what God wants for us in a wife? Sure, it might be helpful if a wife is able to communicate as deeply and as readily in the moment as the husband, but why does her processing speed matter so much in a Christian marriage? As long as both are prayerful and faithful, and the husband is leading his wife in a godly way…

    The model of headship and submission and all other marital guidance provided in Scripture and God’s promises, rewards and blessings, don’t depend on mental acuity. If anything, having a Christian wife that is too intelligent may lend itself to more argument, more wilfulness, more potential for wifely dissatisfaction, more rebellion and more insecurity for the husband.

    My own church is in a part of town that attracts many people of high intelligence – doctors, scientists, lawyers, financiers, academics, engineers, etc, few of whom are married to each other. The marriage rates are quite low amongst those who prefer assortative coupling. In fact, as far as I can see there is only one couple in a few hundred who are both in the 150+ IQ range. There are many more singles with IQ’s at this level, many of whom are divorced and/or struggling to find a spouse who meets their exacting intellectual demands.

    The successful marriages are mostly between men who are committed to learning how to be a godly husband and women who are committed to being a Christian wife. There are plenty of marriages between men and women who don’t trip over themselves trying to impose intellectual controls on their Christian lives together. Indeed, those who do tend to be the ones queueing up at the pastors office. Too many times I see the demands of intelligent wives determining the actions of their husbands as Paul describes in 1 Cor 7:33-35.

    For me, the last thing I want is to be forever trying to satisfy my wife’s needs ahead of serving God. The closer her intelligence to mine, the more likely I see that happening. I don’t need depth from her so much if she is loving me as God intends and helping me to serve Him well. Of course, she herself would find it difficult if our IQ’s we were too far apart, so there’s a limit to the veracity of my argument. I would say a husband with 150 IQ who is faithful to God’s Word, with an active church life, regular quiet times and who prays effectively, could easily be married to a faithful Christian woman with an average IQ who does likewise. I can see no reason such a couple would not receive God’s blessings (and healthful trials) for life.

    But then, if there’s a choice, and all other things were equal, I too would prefer a wife who is closer to me in intelligence. I don’t think it’s at all necessary for Christian marriage, but it might be more attractive for some. I’d caution against making intelligence an idol, as the simple but faithful and devoted servant girl may be God’s way of humbling the intelligent proud king of this world.

  20. Swanny River says:

    I saw your link goes to Piper’s site, was he the author?
    I noticed he said men aren’t around so strong women are needed. As if men weren’t dieing young tragic deaths in the first century when Paul was writing? So let’s say a husband dies during war, or on a construction site now, shouldn’t he at least get credit for that before the author’s mad rush to put women on a pedestal.
    A missionary in my small group, with a degree from Wheaton has a similarly inappropriate reaction when I bring up headship. He will only talk about strawmen arguments and refuses to address headship head on. He always reverts to talking about smart leadership listens and compromises. What does that have to do with the point that husbands lead? He can’t say he leads, instead talks about how he focuses on his sins only and how that works best. I guess the bible says that whatever results in a good outcome is what God’s will is, but I can’t find that verse.

  21. Swanny River says:

    Wizard Prang, you said in fewer words than I did what I was trying to get at with my small group white knight. It seems he’s all good with the modern Christian understanding of husbands and wives, but I look at the landscape and think his complacency is nuts and harmful.
    Matt, I have a wife who I can talk to intelligence-wise. It blows because her rebelliousness means we don’t get to have those conversations. I will choose differently if I get to again. 1Tim says “full” submission, which is similar but distinct from fully on the same conversational wavelength.

  22. Swanny River says:

    Wizard Prang, since all of the Protestant leaders have chosen to fight, but are fighting the RP brothers in their midst, do you think they think all is good with Marriage 2.0? I think it’s likely that they are good with it. It explains why they fight change but not rebellious women. They don’t like the divorce rate or premarital sex, nor porn use of course, but they fight to maintain conventional wisdom.

  23. @ Swanny River

    I saw your link goes to Piper’s site, was he the author?

    Nope, but that also means he’s not looking at what people are putting on his site.

    Piper is also in with the complementarians which Dalrock has shown to be the same as the egalitarians in teaching.

  24. Dragonfly says:

    “I don’t see anything about strong women here. 1 Peter 3 and Titus 2 encourage these qualities:
    1 Peter 3 — Chaste and respectful behavior; gentle and quiet spirit
    Titus 2 — The behavior is love of husbands and children (Greek: philos not agape), workers at home, and subject to their husbands; the qualities are pure and sensible.
    I don’t see ‘female strength’ being ‘captivatingly attractive’ nor an actual quality that should be emphasized by wives in the Scripture. In fact, female strength is specifically not encouraged as the qualities that wives are to exhibit are opposite that. Chaste and respectful behavior, gentle and quiet spirit, pure and sensible.”

    The next verse I’m writing on talks about a woman’s strength – it is found in the Proverbs 31 passage (vs 17). It will be interesting to see what all is there and what biblical scholars have thought, including the Hebrew deeper meanings and implications – I’ve only begun to look at it, so I’m not even sure what it will reveal. I do know that it says she girds herself with strength (as in literally putting on strength like one puts on clothing), and reveals that her arms are strong. But this article linked was definitely off :/ and made submission look like weakness (as if we need more of that). That is so unfortunate!

    I saw at the end you added an edit note about virtuous not being synonymous with strong. Many biblical scholars believe the word chosen in Proverbs 31:10 “virtuous” or “capable” or “excellent” is a Hebrew word most often used to describe strength (of mind and body), a force or power (usually used in the Old Testament to describe a whole army), etc. I didn’t write about that deeper meaning, but it is clear that to be virtuous at all, to fulfill doing her husband good all the days of her life (employing and developing the real fruit of the Spirit, goodness, which the Greek text literally means: virtue equipped at every opportunity), a woman needs to have inner strength as well as outer strength (self-control and discipline are virtues and fruits of the Spirit). It is fascinating how it all ties so beautifully in together. So I do think there is virtue in the strength of a woman (Proverbs 31:17), but the article totally mischaracterized what is “virtuous” versus what is loud, offensive, and confrontational.

  25. @ Dragonfly

    I saw at the end you added an edit note about virtuous not being synonymous with strong. Many biblical scholars believe the word chosen in Proverbs 31:10 “virtuous” or “capable” or “excellent” is a Hebrew word most often used to describe strength (of mind and body), a force or power (usually used in the Old Testament to describe a whole army), etc. I didn’t write about that deeper meaning, but it is clear that to be virtuous at all, to fulfill doing her husband good all the days of her life (employing and developing the real fruit of the Spirit, goodness, which the Greek text literally means: virtue equipped at every opportunity), a woman needs to have inner strength as well as outer strength (self-control and discipline are virtues and fruits of the Spirit). It is fascinating how it all ties so beautifully in together. So I do think there is virtue in the strength of a woman (Proverbs 31:17), but the article totally mischaracterized what is “virtuous” versus what is loud, offensive, and confrontational.

    Yeah, if we’re talking about say ‘strength of character’ or ‘conviction’ that would lead toward martyrdom. And I’m not talking about self martyrdom but actually dying for Jesus.

    Women are supposed to do good, not evil, to their husbands. Unfortunately, the article describes the women doing evil — disrespectful and unsubmissive behavior.

    Whatever you want to call it… this is not it.

  26. Dragonfly says:

    It is really interesting how a feminized society can twist the real meanings behind strength and weakness into things they weren’t meant to be.

    The way he described the situation with David and Abigail was really off. Since it deals with submission and marriage dynamics and how women should act with a sinful husband… I wrote a couple of posts on it 6 months ago and came up with what you did in your points (but from a marriage/wife perspective)….
    https://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/11/27/abigail-the-heart-of-the-matter/
    https://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/11/29/abigail-the-scandalous-wife/

    A lot of what he says about David and Abigail just is wrong – like “Abigail made life harder for David…” um… she made it easier for him to do the right thing, by appealing to him with submissiveness and gentleness. She even kneeled before him taking a submissive posture! That doesn’t sound much like a “rebuke” to me, but he categorizes it as a rebuke for some reason. She seems to be more pleading with him and taking the blame on herself (like you stated), rather than coming in “too opinionated” or “loud” or “boisterous” and offending him by saying “No! You’re WRONG!”

    hm…

  27. Out of Nod says:

    When I read point #3, the author hints to the real problem. The whole article is a rationalization to his own “father wound” and because of that he is willing to sell the lie that strong women are more desirable.

    This is a projection.

  28. Pingback: The decay is a time of pruning | Christianity and the manosphere

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