Submission is a test of faith

In intelligent submission is not required, I explored the concept of submission and it’s interaction with faith. Let me step back for a second and explore Hebrews 11 more in depth.

Also, props to Robyn for being one of the few married women to understand one of the main points of the previous post, which led into this one.

Faith

Hebrews 11 starts off with Paul defining the nature of faith:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the [a]assurance (hupostasis) of things [b]hoped for (elpizo), the [c]conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.

G5287 — ὑπόστασις — hupostasis — hoop-os’-tas-is
From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance. Total KJV occurrences: 5

G1679 — ἐλπίζω — elpizō — el-pid’-zo
From G1680; to expect or confide: – (have, thing) hope (-d) (for), trust. Total KJV occurrences: 31

In other words, faith is a trust in substance or essence. What is this substance or essence? Wintery Knight has a great post describing what the essence of faith in 3 parts.

notitia – This is the basic informational foundation of our faith. It is best expressed by the word content. Faith, according to the Reformers must have content. You cannot have faith in nothing. There must be some referential propositional truth to which the faith points. The proposition “Christ rose from the grave,” for example, is a necessary information base that Christians must have.

assensus – This is the assent or confidence that we have that thenotitia is correct… This involves evidence which leads to the conviction of the truthfulness of the proposition… This involves intellectual assent and persuasion based upon critical thought…assensus… says, “I am persuaded to believe that Christ rose from the grave.”

fiducia – This is the “resting” in the information based upon a conviction of its truthfulness. Fiducia is best expressed by the English word “trust.”… Fiducia is the personal subjective act of the will to take the final step. It is important to note that while fiducia goes beyond or transcends the intellect, it is built upon its foundation.

Our faith is built on the knowledge of who God is, confidence that we know our knowledge is correct, and trust in this knowledge that we live it out. We glean this knowledge of the Truth of God from the Scriptures, how He has worked and changed our hearts, and from growing in our relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

This is the essence of our faith, which is the foundation of Christianity.

Example of Abraham

The examples I gave in the previous post was Abraham, so let’s look at them:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed [i]by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

If you read back to Genesis 11 and 12, God essentially calls Abraham out of the land of Ur of the Chaldeans as a test of his faith. Abraham — previously Abram as this time — responds to this call by obeying what God told him. Abraham knew the destination and he knew the promise, but he didn’t know any of the specifics. He didn’t know how or when he would get there.

In other words, Abraham submitted to God because he trusted that God had good intentions for his life.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your [n]descendants shall be called.” 19 [o]He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back [p]as a type.

Likewise, Abraham in Genesis 22 offers up Issac as a sacrifice. The writer of Hebrews supposes that Abraham trusts in God enough that he believes that God can raise the dead. Hence, Abraham acts in faith and submits to God’s command. I have no clue how the writer of Hebrews knew what Abraham was thinking. Even today after we know that the power of God raised Jesus from the dead, many Christians still doubt such miracles can happen today.

However, the immense faith Abraham showed by obeying what God said even sacrificing his only son is amazing.

The test

Ultimately, submission is a test of faith.

Do you believe what God has commanded you to do is good for you? Do you believe that the road you are walking is righteous? Will you give into fear or obey God?

  • When you pass the test of faith, you submit and gain a greater trust.
  • When you fail the test of faith, you are saying by your actions that you don’t trust God. You trust yourself or others over Him. This is called rebellion.

This likewise applies to the marriage relationship as well. A wife’s submission to her husband’s authority is a test of faith.

This leads me to the conclusion that many Christian wives have very little to zero faith in their husbands. Otherwise, they would trust them and obey them.

This is not really any surprise since husbands and fathers are denigrated and disrespected in our culture. Authority is not respected either. This bleeds over into marriages and families. This is the sad state of the Christian Church.

If you want to understand why husbands don’t trust wives look no further than the parable of the talents.

Matthew 25:14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five [a]talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his [b]master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your [c]master.’ […]

24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money [d]in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God doesn’t trust servants who aren’t responsible with the talents that He has given them.

In the same way, a wife that does not choose to submit to or trust her husband at all is like the wicked and lazy slave. Her husband cannot trust in her because she rebels against the decisions he makes. Since the husband cannot trust her, it’s likely that whatever he does trust her with he has to keep a close eye on.

If we prove ourselves trustworthy with little, we can be given more. If we prove ourselves untrustworthy with little, what we have will be taken.

Luke 16:10 “He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much. 11 Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous [i]wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? 12 And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another’s, who will give you that which is your own? 13 No [j]servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and [k]wealth.”

Although the parable of the unrighteous steward is aimed at the kingdom and riches, similar principles can also be applied to the marriage relationship. A wife that proves herself unreliable, rebellious, and untrustworthy will be unlikely to be trusted with much, if at all.

As I stated in intelligent submission is not required, the “ideal” is that if those under authority know the character of the one in authority and know they are acting for their good then such a trust will play dividends when they are able to obey immediately without question. This builds and leads to oneness. There is a mutual trust that has been fostered between the two parties to where they are of one mind and act as one.

I would assert that this so-called ‘ideal’ relationship is the one where a husband or wife can anticipate the need before it is asked. Asking is merely a formality as the husband and wife *know* each other.

Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

God knows what we need. We are to become like God. Matthew 5:28 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

A wife that can anticipate what a husband is going to ask before he even asks for it is amazing. Is that even submission or obedience if she knows and does it without him asking? I would call that oneness.

A good example

The centurion presents us with a good example.

Matthew 8:5 And when [a]Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, “[b]Lord, my [c]servant is [d]lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7 Jesus *said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion said, “[e]Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just [f]say the word, and my [g]servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith [h]with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and [i]recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; [j]it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the [k]servant was healed that very [l]moment.

In the Scripture, Jesus only marvels twice. Once he marvels at the people’s unbelief in and near his hometown which does not allow Him to do any miracles there. The second is the faith of the centurion. The centurion trusts Jesus because he understands the nature of authority. The centurion passed the test of faith with flying colors.

A bad example

Moses’ encounter with God at the burning bush is a perfect example of a lack of faith and trust.

Exodus 3:10 Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt.”11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 And He said, “Certainly I will be with you, and this shall be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall [f]worship God at this mountain.”

13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “[g]I AM WHO [h]I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘[i]I AM has sent me to you.’”

[…]

Exodus 4:1 Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen [a]to what I say? For they may say, ‘The Lord has not appeared to you.’” 2 The Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” 3 Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 But the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his [b]hand— 5 “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”

6 The Lord furthermore said to him, “Now put your hand into your bosom.” So he put his hand into his bosom, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous like snow. 7 Then He said, “Put your hand into your bosom again.” So he put his hand into his bosom again, and when he took it out of his bosom, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. 8 “If they will not believe you or [c]heed the [d]witness of the first sign, they may believe the [e]witness of the last sign. 9 But if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water which you take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground.”

10 Then Moses said to the Lord, “Please, Lord, I have never been [f]eloquent, neither [g]recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am [h]slow of speech and [i]slow of tongue.” 11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and teach you what you are to say.” 13 But he said, “Please, Lord, now [j]send the message by whomever You will.”

14 Then the anger of the Lord burned against Moses, and He said, “Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that [k]he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. 15 You are to speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do. 16 Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him. 17 You shall take in your hand this staff, with which you shall perform the signs.”

Moses continually questions God after He had spoken on what He wanted Moses to do and eventually provokes God to anger. The same parallel can be made with husbands and wives.

Unbelieving husbands

This clarifies the wisdom of 1 Peter 3.

1 Peter 3:1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and [a]respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right [b]without being frightened by any fear.

When wives submit to unbelieving husbands and cultivate godliness, it’s basically a demonstration of their faith not only in their husbands but also in God. That’s how they win their husbands for God. Her faith is what God uses to multiply it to their marriage.

Conclusions

  • Submission is a test of faith.
  • For wives, submission evaluates the trust and faith that they have in their husbands.
  • Given what we see in the Church, many wives have zero to little faith and trust in their husbands.
  • The ideal relationship that we are to strive for as Christians is oneness.
  • Oneness in a relationship is where the faith and trust are so high that there can be obedience without question because you *know* the character and intentions of the one asking.
  • Indeed, one could say once you *know* someone extremely well that you can anticipate their needs before they can even ask. There is beauty in a relationship that displays this.
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65 Responses to Submission is a test of faith

  1. Elspeth says:

    Well yeah, submission is a reflection of the faith a wife has in God and her husband.

    I didn’t realize this was in debate…

  2. Pingback: Submission is a test of faith – Manosphere.org

  3. Looking Glass says:

    We’re still debating the meaning of “is”. Sadly, everything is up for debate now.

  4. Ame says:

    Looking Glass –
    L.O.L.!

  5. SnapperTrx says:

    This information is all well and good and RIGHT, but the fact of the matter is that nobody really cares.

    In the past two weeks I have had my own wife tell me, twice, that she is going to do whatever she wants, regardless of what I say about it (if she prayed about it and didn’t get a ‘no’ answer then it must be Gods will), my own father tell me that “men are the problem with this country” and “if a woman knows she is right about something she has every right to not listen to her husband”, another uncle quote the “happy wife, happy life” meme (though his wife was very obedient and respectful of him, that likely has something to do with it), my pastor put together a Friday night message to tell me that I was wrong for saying women shouldn’t be pastors and I think the head pastor wants to meet with me so he can tell me that my thinking is wrong when it comes to headship and submission.

    To top it all off I got to sit last night and listen to my wife and mother in law complain about people who wont “accept sound scripture”!

    The fact of the matter is that NO ONE wants to accept sound scripture! Everything has to be passed through the filter of feminism first, even for Christians! Does it make women feel bad, or less than equal to men? “Interpret” it differently so that doesn’t happen!

    When I told my father than women are under the authority of husbands and they are commanded, by scripture, to be obedient even under undeserved bad treatment he told me I couldn’t say that because it was “too harsh”. This man has been a Christian longer than I have been alive and even HE cannot accept sound doctrine that doesn’t bend to the feminist imperative!

    I cannot say “Lord, come quickly!” loud enough! I am almost to the point of just saying LET IT ALL BURN! When scripture is said to be too harsh for even believers to hear we are already screwed! Now I am being told that I have to game my wife to get her to come under submission, rather than trust that she, being a Christian, will adhere and obey the bible! What’s worse is that I now believe that statement to be true! I WILL have to game my wife to get her to submit. All in all, that just makes me want to weep! What a crappy thing to have to do.

    I give up.

  6. This is really good, DS. And (if I’m honest), a little convicting.
    Proverbs 31:11-12 comes to mind, regarding what you were saying about anticipating needs and oneness:
    Her husband has full confidence in her
    and lacks nothing of value.
    She brings him good, not harm,
    all the days of her life.

  7. feeriker says:

    Well yeah, submission is a reflection of the faith a wife has in God and her husband.

    I didn’t realize this was in debate…

    The definition isn’t what’s in debate. What’s in debate is how many women have the required faith in either of the two above-named entities to actually submit. The answer to that question is “Elspeth and all the others in North America could easily fit into the back of a mini-van with room to spare.”

  8. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    SnapperTrx,
    I wish that I had something for you or, at least, give you a direction but, I have nothing. The only thing we have is that the ball is now in our court. A little help or some advice from upstairs would help too.

  9. Robyn says:

    Great article. I had to laugh at myself; in previous years this statement would’ve made my head explode: “A wife that can anticipate what a husband is going to ask before he even asks for it is amazing. ” Hard to hear. Harder to hear from a man.

    “Since the husband cannot trust her, it’s likely that whatever he does trust her with he has to keep a close eye on.” Husbands have been given the authority, just as Adam was, and they continue to go the same way as he did: stand there and do nothing as she destroys the marriage …. and herself; instead of “keeping a close eye on.” (present company excluded, well, probably most who read here). The solution is the same for both spouses. Trust God more and who He created each one to be.

  10. Nonya says:

    As I stated in intelligent submission is not required, the “ideal” is that if those under authority know the character of the one in authority and know they are acting for their good then such a trust will play dividends when they are able to obey immediately without question.

    Yet even Jesus on the cross questioned God and asked that the cup be taken from him in the garden. But fallible wives who are submitting to fallible husbands shouldn’t ask questions?

    A wife that can anticipate what a husband is going to ask before he even asks for it is amazing. Is that even submission or obedience if she knows and does it without him asking? I would call that oneness.

    I would call that predictability. Some people are more predictable than others. Simply getting married makes you one.

    Are you going to marry soon? If so I would suggest that you tell your fiance that you expect her to obey immediately and without question BEFORE you walk down the aisle. Most women,even Christian and submissive women, won’t be interested in that kind of marriage. She needs to be clear on what kind of situation she is walking in to.

    @SnapperTrx

    Lots of complaints in your comment about people that you are supposed to honor. None of the elders in your family are doing it right according to you. Yet you are the one having marital troubles.

  11. Robyn says:

    @ nonya:

    “Yet even Jesus on the cross questioned God …”

    Yes, as wives we are supposed to question …. God. Jesus didn’t waste His time on the earthly constructs in His sphere, Judas, Pharisees, or Pilate. He went straight to the top. The same way when a husband won’t ‘hear’ from his wife, she’s to follow the precept set by Christ: God to the top.

  12. @ Nonya

    Yet even Jesus on the cross questioned God and asked that the cup be taken from him in the garden. But fallible wives who are submitting to fallible husbands shouldn’t ask questions?

    Predictable question yourself, which I’ve already covered.

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2016/06/11/the-exception-temptation/

    It’s funny because in that post I explained the temptation that you simply had to ask about.

    I would call that predictability. Some people are more predictable than others. Simply getting married makes you one.

    All human behavior is predictable, including your response. What matters isn’t “predictable” but “righteous” or “unrighteous.”

    People with bad character will do bad things. People with good character will do good things. Christians are supposed to develop good character and do good works.

    And, for your information, I do discuss my posts with my girlfriend. Thank you for asking!

  13. RichardP says:

    @SnapperTrx: The fact of the matter is that NO ONE wants to accept sound scripture!

    Here is some of that sound scripture you would like people to pay attention to (paraphrased, not quoted word for word, but you can look it up). I’ve posted this at Dalrock’s in one form or another several time, so some readers may recognize this. At the end of this, I have a question for you and others.

    God did not create Eve to submit to Adam. Nowhere does the Creation story claim that he did. And God did not call Adam to lead Eve. Nowhere does the Creation story claim that he did (and the meaning of the New Testament Greek word for “head” favors “rulership” more than “leadership”). In the New Testament, Paul was either creating a new standard for male – female relationships different from God’s standard, or he was embracing God’s standard as described below and we have misunderstood what he was saying, intentionally or otherwise.

    God created Eve to help Adam. To be a proper help, which is the God-mandated objective, the helper must submit to the instructions given by the helped – otherwise, no helping gets done. Submission is a required subset of helping. But helping is not a required subset of submission. A person can “submit” to another and at the same time do nothing at all to help them. That is, submission is a necessary part of helping, but it is not sufficient. God said help, not submit. Why do we say otherwise? (And please note that effective “helping” requires a different skill set than just being “feminine” or a “doormat”.)

    God told Eve what he had created Adam to do – rule over her. Not lead. Leadership depends upon the cooperation of the one who is supposed to be led. Rulership suffers no such restriction. Rulership rules, regardless of the attitude of the one being ruled over. Rulership is much more difficult to accomplish now when the state stands ready to intervene. But I’m talking about what God actually said, not what we have devolved into. God said rule, not lead. Why do we say otherwise? (And please note that effective “ruling” requires a different mindset and skill set than “leading” requires.) Did God say “rule” because he knew that he had created Eve to be resistant to leadership?

    God did not intend that Eve help everyman. Only her husband. And God did not intend that Adam rule everywoman. Only his wife. If one is not going to be a wife or a husband, God does not really have a list of skill sets that each sex must employ. So why should we?

    Given what God actually said – ‘help’, not ‘submit’ – why are there so many blog posts on what “submit” means and how to do it, and basically none on what “help” means and how to do it? Why are we not helping people parse through what God actually said?? Think that question through carefully.

  14. @ SnapperTrx

    Thanks for sharing and venting.

    You don’t have to game really. Game I would say in most cases is simply a warped and/or incomplete version of masculinity.

    You can only change you. You can’t change anyone else. All you can do is say what is right and then go on living a life that is righteous.

    1. Continue to express the Truth and carry on with your role(s) and responsibilities as best you can.
    2. Don’t ask questions and just lead. Make decisions for the family with and without her advice. Get stuff done.
    3. Never argue.
    4. Don’t show anger. (Vent to God or good male friends, can be here if you want)
    5. Be excellent in your work and personal life.
    6. Dress well
    7. Get fit.
    8. Don’t let others bad or incorrect feelings make you exasperated. Christians sin all the time whether purposeful or not. It’s your job as a Christian to tell them they’re doing wrong. It’s not your job to change them.
    9. Love, in the case of rebellion, is tough love. God outlines what He expects from us in the Bible… but he also allows us to experience the sinful consequences of our actions when we do wrong.

    Allow her to experience the consequences of her actions as long as it doesn’t destroy the family. If she does something on her own and you disagree then screws it up and asks for your help then don’t help her. Yes, she will call you mean and get angry. She will say she hates you. Honestly, I might be laugh in that situation… imagine how God feels when we do bad things and try to pass it off onto him.

    Get all of your proverbial life ducks in a row exemplifying being a Christian because you can only change you. Others’ sin should affect how you live.

    That’s your best witness.

  15. Nonya says:

    Robyn
    Yes, as wives we are supposed to question …. God. Jesus didn’t waste His time on the earthly constructs in His sphere, Judas, Pharisees, or Pilate. He went straight to the top. The same way when a husband won’t ‘hear’ from his wife, she’s to follow the precept set by Christ: God to the top.

    He asked a question of the one that He was submitting to. Clearly you can submit and question. And Wow at you thinking that God Himself can be questioned, but questioning a husband is wrong.

    @Deep Strength
    It’s funny because in that post I explained the temptation that you simply had to ask about.
    Irrelevant, as I’m not talking about sinful commands but about the kinds of things that come up in regular, everyday married life. But then, I don’t expect a single guy to really get that.

    All human behavior is predictable, including your response. What matters isn’t “predictable” but “righteous” or “unrighteous.”

    You seem to have missed the point entirely. Life is not a romance novel where you aren’t “one” with your spouse if you can’t always anticipate each others’ needs. This:

    A wife that can anticipate what a husband is going to ask before he even asks for it is amazing. Is that even submission or obedience if she knows and does it without him asking? I would call that oneness.

    reads like something that a teenage girl would write after reading Twilight. “We aren’t one because she can’t read my mind and sometimes I have to ask her to do things for me”, is the same as a woman expecting a man to “just know” what she wants. I mean the men in the romance novels just know what the woman wants, shouldn’t a husband be able to do that? Maybe we aren’t soul mates. LOL.

    Oneness in a relationship is where the faith and trust are so high that there can be obedience without question because you *know* the character and intentions of the one asking.

    You can believe in your spouses good intentions and good character and still recognize that you are dealing with a human. Mistakes are possible and sometimes a few pertinent questions can help prevent them. If a man is so arrogant that he thinks that he shouldn’t ever be questioned then mistakes are likely. And oneness in marriage has nothing to do with character, faith or trust. Guess what? Even if you marry an untrustworthy lunatic who would sell your children for crack you are one with that lunatic. According to the Bible, all that is required for oneness is being husband and wife.

  16. Robyn says:

    @Nonya:

    “And Wow at you thinking that God Himself can be questioned, but questioning a husband is wrong.”

    Well, yeah. Have you not read about when Jacob wrestled with God? But I think David did it the most, you know the one that it is said of, “the man after God’s own heart.”

    You don’t understand move because you don’t understand (or desire it seems) submission in marriage, that it is out of respect for my husband, I submit to him in all things and leave the final judgement up to God. When there is conflict that cannot be resolved, the greatest results come from yielding in the temporal realm and appealing to the supernatural realm.

    This is a strategic move that renders Satan impotent in our marriage. And at the same time opening the door for my Man to be able to hear from God without me in the way.

  17. Nonya says:

    <You don’t understand move because you don’t understand (or desire it seems) submission in marriage,

    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    that it is out of respect for my husband, I submit to him in all things and leave the final judgement up to God. When there is conflict that cannot be resolved, the greatest results come from yielding in the temporal realm and appealing to the supernatural realm.

    This is a strategic move that renders Satan impotent in our marriage. And at the same time opening the door for my Man to be able to hear from God without me in the way.

    Asking questions and receiving answers is often how conflicts are resolved. My husband is happy with both my submission and my questions, so I must be doing it right. But then, I’ve never been the shrewish type of wife and my husband’s ego is of normal size, so he doesn’t feel disrespected by a question or two.

  18. Nonya says:

    @Robyn

    “And Wow at you thinking that God Himself can be questioned, but questioning a husband is wrong.”

    Well, yeah. Have you not read about when Jacob wrestled with God? But I think David did it the most, you know the one that it is said of, “the man after God’s own heart.”
    Because I think that you missed it I will spell it out. I know that people questioned God and wrestled with Him. That is why it makes no sense and borders on blasphemy that a husband would claim to be above questioning. A husband is not above God.

  19. SnapperTrx says:

    @nonya

    Your ignorance of my situation is excusable. You don’t know if I am just a jerk husband who demands his wife do everything he say without question of if my wife is a thieving drug addict who is tearing our home apart. Either way, the bible is clear in its structure of authority, placing husbands as the figure of authority in marriage and wives as a subordinate. Nowhere do I see the bible indicating that women cannot ask questions of their husbands. In fact, I encourage my wife to ask questions and make her point of view known because her point of view may contain information I had not considered, but that doesn’t remove me from my position as authority in the home.

    I did nothing to dishonor my father or my pastors, but am disturbed that their response to an issue would be disobedience. I would find it just as disturbing if my pastor told me that because I didn’t agree with my boss at work that I should ignore him and do what I thought was best. It would sound ludacris if it were suggested in any other situation with the exception of not obeying an authority because they requested you to sin against God.

    @RichardP

    The words of Paul are the words of God. If you speak and I transcribe every word then the words on the page are your words, transcribed by me. If my bible says “submit” then that is the word God intended. The original greek says “hypotasso” which Strongs indicates as meaning: “To arrange under, to subordinate”, “to subject, put in subjection”, “to subject one’s self, to obey”. If that’s what it says then that’s what I believe it means.

    And what kind of helper doesn’t submit to the one they are helping? How much help are you if every time you are asked to hand your father a tool you tell him ‘no’. A helper submits to the one being helped in faith that they know what they are doing, but may need an extra hand or another point of view. “I understand your goal, let me help you reach it”, not, “I don’t agree with your goal so I am going to sit here and criticize and do everything I can to keep you from it”. That makes little sense to me.

    This tells me that in order to be of help, you are required to submit. Otherwise you are merely a stumbling block.

  20. SnapperTrx says:

    @nonya

    Sorry, what I intended to say as well was questioning doesn’t seem to be a problem, but wholesale rejection of a final decision IS a problem. As the authority of the home, once a husband has made a decision it should be honored, not thrown down and stomped.

    And, yes, we can say “well what if its the wrong decision?”, but the bible already addresses that when Paul says that wives should be subject to their husbands EVEN IF they are not believers. We can assume that as non-believers those husbands would not be making decisions based on scripture, but wives are commanded to be obedient anyway because 1) it is pleasing to God and 2) their obedience becomes their witness to their unsaved husband.

  21. Robyn says:

    @ Nonya:

    There’s no missing or misunderstanding. You and I come from completely different perspectives on marriage, and that’s just fine. I hope you and your Man are both happy and growing in maturity in your marriage. We’ve both stated our different perspectives and had ‘equal time.’ I’m quite happy to let sleeping dogs lie on your last comment of the disagreement; to continue in this vein, however, feels like it’s going to devolve into the proverbial cat fight. Please feel free to email me if you want to continue this discussion, one-to-one.

  22. Nonya says:

    @SnapperTrx

    Nowhere do I see the bible indicating that women cannot ask questions of their husbands. In fact, I encourage my wife to ask questions and make her point of view known because her point of view may contain information I had not considered, but that doesn’t remove me from my position as authority in the home.

    I agree with this.

    Sorry, what I intended to say as well was questioning doesn’t seem to be a problem, but wholesale rejection of a final decision IS a problem. As the authority of the home, once a husband has made a decision it should be honored, not thrown down and stomped.

    I agree here too.

    And, yes, we can say “well what if its the wrong decision?”, but the bible already addresses that when Paul says that wives should be subject to their husbands EVEN IF they are not believers. We can assume that as non-believers those husbands would not be making decisions based on scripture, but wives are commanded to be obedient anyway because 1) it is pleasing to God and 2) their obedience becomes their witness to their unsaved husband.

    I also agree with this for the most part. Obviously excluding those commands to sin. You can’t win a husband with your Godly behavior if you don’t have Godly behavior. Most of the time, differences of opinion aren’t about sinning or not sinning.

    @Robyn

    There’s no missing or misunderstanding. You and I come from completely different perspectives on marriage, and that’s just fine. I hope you and your Man are both happy and growing in maturity in your marriage. We’ve both stated our different perspectives and had ‘equal time.’ I’m quite happy to let sleeping dogs lie on your last comment of the disagreement; to continue in this vein, however, feels like it’s going to devolve into the proverbial cat fight. Please feel free to email me if you want to continue this discussion, one-to-one.

    I’m not interested in a cat fight so I understand if you can’t be civil and don’t want to respond further. I’m not sure how an email would help with that, so I won’t be sending one. I am curious as to how you resolve conflicts without ever asking any questions, but I’m not holding my breath for an answer. Each wife has to submit to her own husband, and husbands are all different. Whatever keeps the peace in your house and to each her own.

    I hope you and your Man are both happy and growing in maturity in your marriage.

    Same to you!

  23. SnapperTrx says:

    @nonya

    therein lies. The rub in the fact that both Christian men in women are ignoring. The Bible has a built in conflict resolution called headship, which is given to husbands. The fact that both Christian men and women willfully ignore this fact is evidence of rebellion on both parts. Men refusing to pick up the responsibility of authority that they are given and women refusing to submit to their husbands as they are commanded. If a King gives a man an authority under his name then he’s to be obeyed as the King is obeyed and respected with the same authority. If he abuses that authority, then he will be subjected to King’s wrath. In the same way if the people do not obey him as he would obey the King then they will be subject to the king’s wrath. What we’re looking at is both the refusal of men to use their authority as commanded and the refusal of women to submit to the authority as they are commanded. In reality, no discussion is even necessary, but each man will approach his wife and her submission in his own way. And if he seeks her input then all the better for him. But if not, that does not strip him of his authority.

  24. @ SnapperTrx

    In reality, no discussion is even necessary, but each man will approach his wife and her submission in his own way. And if he seeks her input then all the better for him. But if not, that does not strip him of his authority.

    Married women are building straw man arguments is the funniest thing. You can clearly tell they get riled up and do not have very good reading comprehension when emotional.

    I didn’t say Christians never sinned. I’ve said sometimes clarification is necessary, such as in the previous post. I’ve talked about cases of sin and how to approach them as in the exception temptation post.

    However, the presuppositions I posed are that a husband is a Christian with good character and hence not talking about sin cases. These *are* things a wife can obey without question and thus build a strong bond of trust with her husband. Yet, women still fall into the “exception temptation” where they have to bring up the exceptions such as sin cases. Proves my point completely.

    This should be a prime example to you why it’s never a good idea to argue with a woman and/or wife. Even when you’re right it doesn’t get you anywhere.

  25. thedeti says:

    Straw man arguments like “Man, did you hear that one about Dave Ramsey? If you submit to your man’s financial decisions, you’re bound to end up bankrupt and sued!”

    So now we’ve gone from “He’s going to ask me to sin” to “He’s going to make some bad financial decisions”. So, women’s answer is “Don’t submit, second guess him, question him, and if necessary, overrule him and divorce him”.

    I really wish Nonya and her sisters would just admit they don’t want to submit to a man unless they approve of his every decision and where the decision might lead. IN essence, they want veto power over their husbands’ decisions, they want priests to serve as courts of review to examine, modify and cast aside husbandly decisions. Just admit it already.

  26. SnapperTrx says:

    “they want priests to serve as courts of review to examine, modify and cast aside husbandly decisions. Just admit it already.”

    Want? They already have! That’s why I got custom served a message on why we need to let women be pastors if that’s the gift Good gave them! Because my wife wanted to over ride my decision! The pastor helped her out!

  27. thedeti says:

    Snapper:

    Nonya and her sisters in arms just want to be able to refuse submission. At most, they are willing to submit so long as they agree with and approve of whatever hubs has decided to do. They are afraid of submitting themselves to any man, much less a Christian one. They elevate themselves to god status by refusing to adhere to this one Scriptural directive.

    And to me that is the beginning and end of the matter.

  28. feeriker says:

    I really wish Nonya and her sisters would just admit they don’t want to submit to a man unless they approve of his every decision and where the decision might lead. IN essence, they want veto power over their husbands’ decisions, they want priests to serve as courts of review to examine, modify and cast aside husbandly decisions. Just admit it already.

    THIS.

    What very nearly ALL women in the Western world believe (even those who call themselves “Christian”), but for some bizarre reason, despite all their feminist moxie, will never SAY, is that they do NOT believe in submission. Period.

    “Submission” as the Bible defines it, is, in their view, a relic of the Ancient World, a legacy of a barbaric, misogynistic, primitive, brutal period in history when women were considered little more than chattel and whose lives and futures were at the mercy of a man’s mere whim. That the Bible clearly demonstrates otherwise, in both Old and New Testaments, that God gave men responsibility for women’s well-being that was motivated by love and a desire to be obedient to God’s plans for humanity, is of course irrelevant. The fact that the Bible is full of submissive women doing God’s work and being blessed by Him for it is also irrelevant. “That was then, this is now.”

    Then there’s the cognitive dissonance in (selectively) citing the contents of a book written during a “barbaric, misogynistic, primitive, brutal” period in history as an authoritative source of obedience to a just God while at the same time saying that what that same just God demands of women is demeaning, dangerous, inhuman, and misogynistic.

    So yeah, as deti says, just admit it, ladies: “Submission sucks, times have changed, and we women who live in the modern world ain’t gonna do it!”

    But instead of beating on the messengers, those who are trying to obey The Boss’s rules, how about taking your beef up with The Boss Himself and ask Him why He insists on something so demeaning and barbaric for all you modern StrongIndependentWomen [TM]? {“Hey God! Get with the 21st Century, why dontcha???!!!”)

  29. thedeti says:

    Mrs. H. over at Two Birds:

    Deti says

    “I really wish Nonya and her sisters would just admit they don’t want to submit to a man unless they approve of his every decision and where the decision might lead. IN essence, they want veto power over their husbands’ decisions, they want priests to serve as courts of review to examine, modify and cast aside husbandly decisions. Just admit it already.”

    Mrs H:

    “It has been admitted. Maybe not in the words Deti is using but in the Casti Conuubi document that was sited for us by AmyP for the Catholics and for Nonya who is not Catholic but agrees with the principles outlined in it.”

    That is not submission. That is “husband, submit your decisions for my approval, and I’ll decide if I will go along with it or not.” That attitude, that heart, is not submission, it is not submission even within Casti Connubii. From that document:

    “But [this subjection] forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family”

    Their brand of “submission” is precisely that sort of “exaggerated liberty” which cares for the good of the individual woman, not the family. This is not submission at all, not even within Catholic tradition. This is allowing the woman to have veto power, which is not contemplated anywhere within that document or anywhere else.

  30. feeriker says:

    This is allowing the woman to have veto power, which is not contemplated anywhere within that document or anywhere else.

    TL:DR version: The church fears Woman more than it fears god.

    (No, those transpositions of capital letters are NOT an error).

  31. Looking Glass says:

    @feeriker:

    Pretty much.

  32. thedeti says:

    The women at Two Birds do not trust their husbands to love them. That’s the bottom line. “If husband wants me to submit to [insert decision here pertaining to finances], then he does not love me. Therefore I am justified in overruling and divorcing him.”

    They don’t trust their husbands to love them or care about them.

  33. thedeti says:

    And, the bottom line is, they don’t respect their husbands. They don’t respect even those husbands who are faithful, God fearing, and adhere to Christian doctrine. They don’t respect or trust even those men who do observe Christian faith tenets and seek to apply and live them in every day life. Even with those men, it’s “nope, I get veto power, I get to approve your decisions, and I will not submit to any decision you make that I don’t agree with”.

  34. thedeti says:

    The ladies so heavily relying on Casti Connubii might do well to examine also this passage from the same document:

    “104. Wherefore, let the faithful also be on their guard against the overrated independence of private judgment and that false autonomy of human reason. For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty.”

    DId you catch that? Let me translate that.

    Christians need to avoid thinking that they know better, to rely on their own judgments instead of those who are rightfully in authority over them. Christians need to avoid elevating their own reasoning and thinking above that of God. A Christian cannot trust his own understanding to agree only with those things he can sense or consider with his/her own mind and reasoning. A Christian must not believe that the Church doesn’t know what She is talking about. A Christian is not to obey only those things to which the Church has spoken directly or which the Christian believes to be true.”

    In other words, don’t rely on your own understanding and don’t think you know better than what God’s word says. Wives don’t get to overrule husbands’ family decisions consistent with “right reason” just because the wives disagree with those decisions or “have a better idea”.

  35. feeriker says:

    And, the bottom line is, they don’t respect their husbands. They don’t respect even those husbands who are faithful, God fearing, and adhere to Christian doctrine.

    This THE root of the issue. There is no love, trust, or submission without respect.

    The implications of contemplating just how few women respect their husbands are horrifying – although not at all surprising once the red-pill awareness sets in. (Awareness, that is, of the fact that modern women have no respect for men at all, or at least no respect for any men who would demean themselves by marrying contentious women such as themselves.)

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  37. Ame says:

    Deti –
    “I really wish Nonya and her sisters would just admit they don’t want to submit to a man unless they approve of his every decision and where the decision might lead. IN essence, they want veto power over their husbands’ decisions, they want priests to serve as courts of review to examine, modify and cast aside husbandly decisions. Just admit it already.”

    i do admit it. i do not want to submit to a man unless i approve of his every decision and unless i approve of where each decision might lead. i do want veto power over my husband’s decisions. i do want [pastors] to serve as courts of review to examine, modify, and cast aside husbandly decisions. i admit this. it is my base nature.

    so in my heart, i have to lay myself before Jesus and beg and plead with Him to change me and enable me to choose to submit to my husband, without giving my approval, without knowing where the decision(s) might lead, without having veto power, without going to anyone, including a priest or pastor, to have them serve as a court to review and examine, modify, and cast aside my husband’s decisions.

    when i asked my husband how he thinks i am with submission to him, he said i’m an 8 out of 10. he said, “That other 20% is stuff you feel passionately about and don’t agree with me on.”

    he’s right. and … in my heart, i think he’s probably being generous with that 8. because in my heart, there are many times when i don’t want to submit but do. there are things which are uncomfortable and/or are hard b/c i don’t think they allow me to be my best. but i do them. refraining from complaining is also challenging.

    i fail more than i’d like. i strive to be better … somedays are better than others. but it’s a continuous struggle.

    however, when i take my two steps back, as my late Mentor would always advise me to do, i see that God’s way is best. that i do need my husband to lead me, to be my lord and master. that i do need to submit to him.

    i read in another comment that respect is key … that if a wife doesn’t respect her husband she won’t submit to him. while that may be true, that is certainly not an excuse. God does not give us an ‘if-then’ clause with submission. it simply isn’t there.

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  39. shredifier says:

    This article was spot on, thank you

  40. Stephanie says:

    This may have already been pointed out since there are so many threads and comments involved in this discussion… but it is possible to submit to your husband with a good attitude even when he is making a bad decision or mistake. My husband posted briefly about this at Dalrock’s one time… about how he has made a couple of decisions that we felt, in hindsight, led us down the wrong path. Every husband may make mistakes like that, we’ve been together almost 10 years next week, so more than likely, mistakes will be made when you’ve been together that long (by both parties). The key here is how a wife responds to it – does she let it destroy her faith in her husband? Does she use it as a way to invalidate his future decisions with a reminder of how he’s failed in the past? Does she use it as an opportunity to take away his authority and leadership in their marriage by demanding that everything be approved by her from now on?

    At that time when we were deciding, I didn’t completely think it was the best idea, and had serious misgivings that I respectfully told him about, but submitted anyway when he wasn’t convinced it was wrong. It ended up maybe setting us back for awhile (about 2 years), but overall, the experience itself, all that we went through within it, was a huge learning opportunity and God still blessed it in many ways. It wasn’t a total loss in other words. God can use anything if He has willing people who will obey Him. Romans 8:28 and all that.

    I could have used it as something to allow to ruin my spiritual growth though, and become bitter and resentful. I could have used it to lord over him, but instead, helped him share the blame by saying that it was both of us who ultimately decided to go down that route – because it really was both of us who decided, I whole-heartedly *decided* to follow him because he’s my husband.

    With how Dave Ramsey was brought up in one comment – just look at where they are now! I don’t know the dynamics of their marriage (whether or not the wife submitted to his bad decisions or whether it was her who saved the family?), but at least they were able to turn around a horrible financial crisis, and use it to bless many other marriages afterwards. That’s how God works… He is able to take our mistakes and bad decisions, and if we repent of them, He’ll show us a better way, and “get us out of the pit.” Often times, He allows us to make these bad decisions in order to humble us in some way or another. To say otherwise, is to go against the entire Bible and all the examples of so many of it’s people making the wrong decisions, making very bad decisions, and yet they were still called righteous. Just my 2 cents anyway 🙂

  41. feeriker says:

    Just my 2 cents anyway:)

    More like two gold ducats!

    Thanks, Stephanie!

  42. thedeti says:

    I’ll point out that in the conversations elsewhere about this thread, it’s being said that a woman gets to decide what is “right reason” and if a woman believes a decision isn’t within “right reason”, then she can refuse to submit to it. (QUoting Casti Connubii) Questionable spending decisions and employment decisions are discussed.

    Questions for those ladies.

    1) Husband decides he wants to quit his $200,000 a year job and become a mid level manager earning $60,000. Wife will have to go back to work. They’ve discussed it, she disagrees. H says “I don’t care, I’m quitting and taking the lower paying job. You’ll need to start looking for a job.”

    The traditional view of submission says W doesn’t like this, but has to go along with it. Our neoliberal feminists elsewhere say W doesn’t have to submit to that, and her recourse is to go to the priest.

    2) H decides the family should buy a $25,000 truck as a family vehicle. W says it’s too much money; they should buy a $15,000 mid sized car. The family can afford both but the more expensive truck will be tougher to afford and money will be tighter for a while. W disagrees with H’s decision. H says “I’ve decided the truck is what we will buy. I’ve heard what you have to say, W, and I disagree. I have made the decision.

    The traditional view of submission says W must submit. Our erstwhile friends elsewhere say W doesn’t have to submit, and she can go to the priest.

    And the priest is going to do… what exactly? Act as an appellate court over H’s decisions? Say “H, you can’t do that, you have to stay in your $200K job that you hate”? “H you cannot spend money on that because it makes W uncomfortable”? Bark orders at H? Give W a dispensation for a divorce? Tell W to separate? Tell W to withhold sex or housework until H complies?

    How is any of this conducive to marriage?

  43. Robyn says:

    @ thedeti:

    Why can’t H just go buy the truck he wants? Why is he even asking permission?

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  45. thedeti says:

    Robyn:

    He’s not asking permission. He’s discussing a major purchase with his wife first. It’s not about permission; it’s about discussing it first. I do this with my own wife.

    I’ll buy a $300 suit without discussion. I won’t buy a vehicle without discussion.

    But what the ladies elsewhere insist on is that in my scenario, if Wife objects, then Husband has to stop and do what Wife demands that he do; else Wife is going to the priest who will…. do something. Or something. Wife will get mad. Wife will withhold sex. Wife will stop doing housework. Wife will have an affair, or seek permission from the priest to separate and/or divorce.

  46. Stephanie says:

    I know a wife right now who has, for a few months, had to come to terms with her accepting her husband’s decision to try to start his own business. It has been very hard on them, thankfully, she was already working, so they have that income, but there’s still a huge financial strain on the family – to the point where her parents know about it and have interjected their “opinions” that her husband isn’t being a faithful provider of his family. So far he hasn’t been able to bring in anything.

    She called me for advice about some options they could do, one being an option we did, and it was a chance to try to help her submit and follow him even though they’re having a hard time even buying groceries. She is one of the sweetest women I know, and let me know that she believes in him and wants to follow him wholeheartedly, just that this has been a little hard so she was doing the right thing, and looking for ways to help him out financially – to make it easier on him. She wasn’t calling to complain, she was calling for advice on how to help her husband.

    This is a hard balance though… they have 3 kids, and it’s hard to trust if he knows what he’s doing – if he’ll search for a job if it just appears that his business is not working. It involves a HUGE amount of trust for her, as well as constantly having to deal with other people’s nasty opinions about him trying to plant seeds in her mind that she shouldn’t follow him anymore.

    I kind of understand the other women’s thoughts on this subject, it is hard and difficult. When we went through this in our marriage, being set back for 2 years felt kind of like the end of the world when we were going through it, I was also dealing with postpartum depression, and it just deepened it. Ironically, my husband was the one who got me out of the depression by really rebuking how little faith I had in God. It woke me up because he was right. But still… it doesn’t make situations like this ANY less hard or emotionally turbulent for a wife to deal with.

  47. thedeti says:

    Stephanie:

    Everyone has to do things that are hard, emotionally turbulent, and difficult. Everyone has to go through economic hard times where money is tight.

    And businesses fail. A man can have a good business model, good capitalization, and good support, and still fail. That doesn’t render him unworthy of submission and it doesn’t excuse the wife’s submission.

    The fact that a man’s business failed or that he went bankrupt or that he doesn’t earn a lot of money doesn’t mean that every decision he makes should be second guessed and questioned by the wife, that wife should attempt to overrule him, that wife should go to the pastor or priest to demand that the clergy “do something”, or that she has grounds for separation or divorce. In those situations, it’s on the wife to submit and to trust.

  48. Robyn says:

    @ thedeti:

    but i bet you wouldnt need to discuss the purchase of a truck; she probably trusts you. as i would expect H to do with me. in your scenario this wife has already proved contentiousness, that’s why this H needs to go ahead and do what he believes is best b/c it won”t matter what he does if it ultimately isn’t what wife wants. Nor should he have to discuss to the extreme to explain himself.

  49. thedeti says:

    Actually, “ladies”, I do know what it’s like to make decisions like this. I do understand “family life”, as I’ve been married 20 years. I have been through good times and really bad times. I also understand, as you apparently don’t, that EVERY marriage goes through a dilemma like this. Wives can’t just go tattle-taling to a pastor every time husband makes a decision he feels is best and is in “right reason”.

    Wives need to trust that their husbands aren’t being stupid and have thought it through before they come to you to discuss a major life issue. But the issue is that our lady friends don’t trust their husbands and are going to second guess, question, and browbeat, and if that doesn’t work, then sic a priest or pastor on them. Just doesn’t work that way, ladies.

  50. thedeti says:

    Actually these are not “fictional” cases, as one woman’s life doesn’t comprise the be all end all of marriage or marital dispute resolution. These are based on actual cases I’ve seen.

  51. Robyn says:

    @ thedeti:

    I completely agree with you. I’m sorry that didn’t come across in my writing. I’m wondering why husbands aren’t more ….. aggressive in their headship when they are leading; moving in their God-given authority. If they believe they have it, and if they are doing what is the best interest of the family, then is it not sin to know what is right and not do it?

    “talking/discussing/more talking” is a female design; not male.

  52. thedeti says:

    Robyn: My comments aren’t directed to you.

    What’s really going on here is that our erstwhile friends have indeed suggested if a husband makes a decision, the wife is completely justified in questioning it, second guessing husband’s wisdom and godliness, and going “over his head” to the pastor/priest if the decision doesn’t “Feel RIGHT” to her, it makes her uncomfortable, she fears the potential consequences, or she just doesn’t like it in any way, shape, manner or form. That is EXACTLY what has been suggested elsewhere.

    What is being suggested is that the wife is to overrule, modify or change any decision he makes if she just doesn’t like it.

    What is being suggested is that the pastor/priest is to browbeat, harangue and overrule the husband because the decision he made, caused wife discomfort or fear or apprehension.

    What is being suggested is that the husband is a moron who needs his wife or a pastor to make decisions for him.

    What is being suggested is that the wife crush her husband with lack of sex, disrespect, nagging, and marital strife up to and including separation and divorce. What is being suggested is that if a wife doesn’t like her husband’s decisions, she has a right to go to a pastor/priest to have him tell the husband to change or cast aside the decision, or he will give her “permission” to separate and divorce.

    All this is crystal clear from the “ladies” statements.

  53. thedeti says:

    If a wife is going to a pastor or priest to have him “review” a decision by a husband, then the wife has in effect declared she no longer considers herself married, that she does not trust her husband, and that she is in effect seeking permission to separate from the husband.

    That’s fine if that’s what a wife decides she wants to do. But let’s call it what it is — a wife who longer wants to be married to a man she no longer trusts.

  54. thedeti says:

    * A wife who NO longer wants to be married to a man she no longer trusts.

  55. thedeti says:

    I’d’ be willing to bet there are certain women posting around these parts who have never once even thought of siccing a priest on their husbands. The reason being is that submission comes easily to women who are extremely sexually attracted to their husbands.

    Lack of submission is essentially a sexual attraction issue. All marital problems can be traced to a lack of sexual attraction from wife to husband.

  56. Robyn says:

    It’s kind of a “chicken first/egg first” issue. For me and ‘my’ sisters it is a self-feeding snowball: the greater the submission the greater the sexual satisfaction, the deeper the orgasm(s). Which in turn creates a desire for more sex. thedeti, it sounds like you are saying that it is the sexual attraction that comes first and because of that, then wives submission is easier; I don’t think it does, at least not in my case or the women that have shared with me. The more masculine, masculinity is, the more attractive it becomes to submit to it. It is the masculinity itself that draws the feminine submission.

    On the other hand, “… traced to a lack of sexual attraction from wife to husband.” We are created to respond so if a wife doesn’t have anything to respond to from the husband (generally speaking) …. then that is what she responds with … nothing.

  57. thedeti says:

    The wife has to be attracted first, which makes it easier to submit. Submission does not create or increase sexual attraction.

    You go from place to place about it, and finally get it when you say “It is the masculinity itself that draws the feminine submission.” This is it; the rest of what you said before that, is not.

  58. Robyn says:

    Sorry about that, that was my thought process …. I forgot to delete it. Good thing I don’t embarrass easily.

    I agree that submission doesn’t create sexual attraction but it can increase it.

  59. thedeti says:

    To the ladies elsewhere (and this will be my last response because DS has indulged me greatly here)

    If you think priests and pastors don’t yell at husbands or tell wives to get divorced because husband is not doing what wife wants him to do, then you haven’t been paying attention. There are legions on regiments of posts all over the manosphere, reports of pastors berating and belittling husbands, accusing husbands of “abuse”, all because a husband either (1) wants sex with his wife; or (2) has decided to do something that the wife just doesn’t like or she disagrees with. Because, you see, to most current modern pastors and priests, a husband wanting sex is “abuse”. A husband making decisions and leading is “abuse”. Hell, most priests will just tell the wife to seek an annulment, based on how the current Catholic church in America is dispensing annulments.

  60. Stephanie says:

    Deti, I don’t think you’re going to convince women who don’t want to be convinced. To me, it’s not even worth my time trying to argue or defend my position (or even myself) at that website you’re referring to.

    Also, maybe you aren’t aware, but the throwing stones site is run by lgrobins (Laura Grace Robins), so that explains a multitude of reasons behind the posts there and toxic heart attitude behind each one. Just pray for her and the women who comment there, I wouldn’t try to intervene… there’s a passage in Proverbs that says if you correct a mocker, you will be attacked.

    I agree with what you’ve said here, but I can understand the misunderstanding of “intelligent submission,” they were initially having (as if a husband doesn’t want an intelligent wife). I know DS and you and other men aren’t saying that, but I could see how it could come across that way.

  61. thedeti says:

    Stephanie: Good info to know, that LGR is “Stone” at twobirdsstone. Explains much.

  62. Pingback: Male attractiveness, submission, and female orgasms | Christianity and masculinity

  63. Pingback: The Raw, Honest, Ugly Truth about Submitting to My Husband – BlendingAme

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