Men lead, women follow

Donal has a post up on overt and covert in regard to mating tendencies.

I have been doing some thinking lately how the whole process of actively trying to “woo” someone. There are two main models which are proposed, one of them the more widely accepted model and the other more common around the manosphere. They are:

  • Men are the pursuers and Women are the pursued
  • Men display and Women choose

I would like to examine these two models, because I am wondering if they are necessarily mutually exclusive. One way of reconciling these two is the following:

Men Display –> Women Choose –> Men Pursue –> Women are Pursued

All of the potential models involve men starting the process. Not really a surprise, I guess. Now to get to the title of the post.

Overall, I think what Roissy and whoever else states hints at the truth, but the actual Truth is as the Scriptures teach: men lead, women follow.

  • Men lead through initiation via their own leadership style among other factors (overtly displayed consciously or unconsciously through various social mediums).
  • Women choose whether to follow/submit or not.

In general, I do not believe that men pursue or that women are pursued in the strictest sense of the word. What follows is male investment and female re-evaluation.

  • Men invest non fungible resources — time, energy, money — and evaluate to consider whether their investment is good or not. If it is good, men will continue. If it seems bad or gets worse, a man may choose to disengage.
  • Women re-evaluate the investment to see if it is good or not. If it is not up to her “standards” whatever they are, she may depart. Women tend to have multiple avenues of re-evaluation of investment: all in (hell yes), satisfied, wishy-washy/looking for other options, I’m out, and hell no and maybe more.

A woman’s “response” or “re-evaluation” is neither covert in the sense that you typically cannot tell exactly from her actions. Rather, it typically is not in her actions but rather her attitude. A woman who thinks a man leading her is a good choice will be respectful and submit to him joyfully and enthusiastically for the most part, as long as her sensibilities are not offended. A woman who is more wishy washy will be contentious over the smallest details.

On a macro level, women tend to respond to a good investment with good investments of their own (e.g. reciprocal behavior). This is why 1 Peter 3 is so difficult for women because it forces her into a position of having to Trust that God will change the heart of a man through respect and chaste behavior and a quiet and gentle spirit — not nagging and harsh words and contentious behavior.

Also worth noting is a woman who is willing to invest more non-fungible resources than the man in the relationship is either very enthusiastic or desperate.

This is why it is important to look at the whole sum of a woman. It’s generally not enough to believe what she says. You need critically analyze her tone of voice and body language. It’s not enough to look at her actions. You need to see her body language and attitude she takes about going to do things. Women can also say one thing and do another. While actions are not the be all end all, it’s more important to evaluate actions over words. The chain of command is as follows.

                [Covert]        versus       [Overt]
[The Heart > Attitude] > [Actions > Words]

The heart and attitude are generally more “covert” in nature whereas actions and words tend to be more “overt.” Women’s ‘cattiness’ and ‘gossip’ is generally predicated on taking specific actions and words that mean one thing taken at face value, but mean the totally opposite thing based on the way or meaning in which it was said.

Men tend to be more straight forward with things regarding the heart, attitude, actions, and words. There are some exceptions (like one-itis), but usually most men will be able to tell if the woman following them is a good investment or not. Pulling the trigger to disengage if a woman is not what they want is another issue altogether.

Both men and women have the potential to “get lazy” in the relationship, which leads to dissatisfaction and usually poor behavior from the other.

To summarize:

  • Men lead, women follow
  • Men invest and evaluate their investment, women re-evaluate a man’s investment and follower status
  • Heart > attitude > actions > words
  • Heart and attitude are generally covert whereas actions and words are overt.
  • The closer to the heart, the more the actions reveal the Truth of what the other person believes.

Also, men are expected to read the extent of a woman’s evaluation of him. If he is ‘over invested’ that usually means her attraction will plummet. This is one of the more interesting attraction triggers that I may go into later.

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6 Responses to Men lead, women follow

  1. theasdgamer says:

    I don’t think either popular model is totally accurate. Sure, sexy men display high value. Men choose whom to approach–men don’t have to wait for women to select the men by eye-flirting before men approach the women.

    Mystery’s model is pretty good. It’s iterative and allows for back-and-forth, which is realistic.

    The Scriptures show that women pursue sexy men. In that sense, women choose. Sometimes, however, men surprise women by approaching (makes girls a little nervous when a man approaches them) and the man displays value and the girl ends up chasing the man.

    Mystery Method Attraction Phases

    A1. The man displays high value. This might require as little as simply approaching a woman and speaking with her.

    A2. The woman indicates interest. She might smile, flick her hair, ask the man’s name, etc. Girls also cocktease, which they will only do with a man who is sexually attractive. In the end, cockteasing ought to be treated as an IOI. However, with cockteasing, as woman’s anti-slut defense is active and she is not totally In the Moment ™ and Lit Up ™. When a woman is lit up, her IOIs are controlled by her autonomic nervous system. The lit up woman’s face is flushed, her pupils are dilated, and her eyes are focused on her sexual interest. Since a woman who is seeking provision will sometimes attempt to hustle a man and bargain her sexual favors for provision (via marriage, potentially), the wise man will attempt to discover whether a woman finds him sexually attractive and will look for IOIs that cannot be faked.

    A3. The man indicates interest. This is done by giving a woman his time and by giving her comfort, which may include kino. The man also might qualify a woman…e.g., by asking her if she can cook, can she dance, is she in a relationship, how old is she, etc.

  2. donalgraeme says:

    I like the idea of the spectrum you created, but I’m not sure that Overt and Covert are the right words.

    As to the notions of investment and evaluation, hmm. I’m not sure it is entirely one way. I think both parties invest and evaluate. But the order changes over time.

  3. anonymous_ng says:

    “This is why it is important to look at the whole sum of a woman. It’s generally not enough to believe what she says. You need critically analyze her tone of voice and body language. It’s not enough to look at her actions. You need to see her body language and attitude she takes about going to do things. Women can also say one thing and do another.”

    FYI: I go back and forth on this, so I’m probably missing the point, or getting hung up on the word choice. Shrug.

    I never understand these deep dive analyses of attraction and flirting etc.

    When I walk into a room, at an almost subconscious level, I evaluate every woman in the room and slot them into two buckets, whether I see them as a potential sexual partner, or not. If a woman is too young, too old, too fat, married, or otherwise unattractive, she’s slotted into the one bucket, and all the rest into the potential bucket.

    I’ve done this basically every single day since puberty.

    I assume that women do similarly.

    When my kids have asked me “Do you think this boy/girl likes me?” I offer them the same advice. I ask them to consider what they do when they are around someone they find attractive; they look at them alot while trying to to be seen, they stand closer, listen to their conversation, etc. Basically, they turn their attention to the one to which they are attracted.

    Well, reverse engineer those behaviors and compare what you’re seeing to what’s normal, and you’ve got a pretty good idea whether there is attraction from them to you.

    Yes, you’ve got to consider the totality of information. Crossed arms may be a subconsious rejection, and it might just mean that person is cold and is trying to conserve warmth, or if it’s a woman, she might be feeling a little immodest and is trying to cover up her breasts. You can’t tell anything from a single bit of data.

    I think then that I’m getting hung up on the phrase “critically analyze”, and the implication that this whole dance is some kind of extended event, or series of events.

    People know right away whether there is an attraction. Yes, I can certainly see that a situation may arise where a woman won’t accept an invitation to coffee from a man to which she is genuinely attracted, but that information is never going to come to light until he asks.

    Then, I don’t take conscious steps to display my manly virtues, and my suitability for dating and marriage. I live my life. I go to the gym because I like me better when I’m strong and in shape. I dress well because I like me better when I dress sharply versus when I’m dressed like a slob.

    If I ran across a young, attractive, demonstrably devout woman, who was genuinely pleasant to be around, I might be willing to expend more energy on the dance, but since most women bring so little to the table beyond a womb, and the potential for sex without sin, I don’t see the point in expending lots of time and energy on them.

    That’s my cynical take on things.

  4. @ theasdgamer

    There’s back and forth in the model above. The evaluation/re-evaluation is not a one time deal.

  5. @ Donal

    Yeah, I think you’re right.

    Overt and covert definitely plays into the Heart/Attitude/Actions/Words, but may cannot be as distinctly classified into it.

    Basically, if Attitude/Actions/Words don’t match ALL up you can say something is more covert in meaning, but that doesn’t mean that say actions are always overt. Sometimes it’s the words that are overt for women while the actions are more covert.

    And yes, on investment/evaluation I don’t think it’s one way either. What I was trying to get at in that ‘phase’ per se was there is constant investment and evaluation going on (from both sides), especially earlier in the relationship. It’s not just a one time deal.

  6. @ anonymous_ng

    When I write stuff like that I’m mainly writing for the men who did not have someone to tell them that stuff when growing up.

    My dad, while great, did not tell me anything about the opposite sex, attraction, how to pick a wife, and so on. From what I’ve seen in ‘real life’ there are plenty ignorant men out there like myself previously.

    That’s why most men are ‘blue pill’ or rather following what the culture says about women… they didn’t have anyone teach them Truth when they were growing up.

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