Another divorce

I’m finally back from a very busy period.

There’s been another “high profile divorce” as Proverbs 31 ministries Lysa TerKeurst has apparently divorced her husband with numerous commentaries (the comments are always the most interesting part of course).

It’s pretty short so I’ll quote the whole thing:

No person’s rejection of me can ever exempt me from God’s love for me.

“A Gut-Honest Look at Love.” That was the title of my first blog post of this year. Based on 1 Corinthians 13, I wrote, “Love isn’t what I have the opportunity to get from this world, love is what I have the opportunity to give.”

This perspective on love has been a lifeline during the most painful season and decision of my adult life. I so wish we were sitting face-to-face so you could see my tears and hear the deep grief in my voice as I share this with you. My husband, life partner and father of my children, Art TerKeurst, has been repeatedly unfaithful to me with a woman he met online, bringing an end to our marriage of almost 25 years. For the past couple of years, his life has sadly been defined by his affection for this other woman and substance abuse. I don’t share this to harm or embarrass him, but to help explain why I have decided to separate from him and pursue a divorce. God has now revealed to me that I have done all I can do and I must release him to the Savior.

Anyone who knows me and Proverbs 31 Ministries knows how seriously I take marriage. I’ve always encouraged women to fight for their marriages and to do everything possible to save them when they come under threat. So, for the past couple of years I have been in the hardest battle of my life trying to save my marriage.

When I first found out about Art’s infidelity 18 months ago, I made the decision not to divorce him. I had just finished fasting and praying for 28 days and really felt led by the Lord that I was to love Art in my reaction to this shocking news and trust God for every step moving forward. I was still committed to doing everything I could think of to make our story one of restoration, even in the face of the worst kind of betrayal imaginable. I prayed continually. I sought counsel from family and other wise friends. And Art and I even made repeated trips across the country together for intensive counseling especially designed for marriages in crisis. But sadly, though I have repeatedly forgiven and accepted him back, he has continued to abuse substances, be unfaithful, and refused to be truthful to me and our family.

I believe I have the capacity to love Art and to forgive him, but his steadfast refusal to end the infidelity has led me to make the hardest decision of my life. After much prayer and consultation with wise, biblically-minded people, I have decided that Art has abandoned our marriage. Yet, the Lord has been so faithful to help me at every step of this very painful journey and has now assured me I’ve done all I can do.

I am brokenhearted beyond what I can express. But I am more committed than ever to trusting God, His promises, and His plans, whatever they are from here.

As many of you who have followed our ministry know, I’ve never shied away from sharing how God has gotten me through tough seasons and even grown me through my struggles. Thankfully, my story has been one of learning that I’m not defined by my circumstances. I’m Lysa, a beloved child of the one true God. My true identity doesn’t shift or fall apart under life’s strains, failures, my own imperfections, setbacks or heartaches. While people—even God’s people—change, I’m so glad I serve a God who doesn’t. I love this verse in Malachi 3:6—“I the Lord do not change; therefore you, children of Jacob, are not consumed.”

So what does all of this mean for Proverbs 31 Ministries and for me? Well, for over 20 years I’ve had a calling supported by my family for equipping women to deepen their relationship with God, study His Word, and to share their stories for God’s glory. Though my heart is so heavy that I’ve certainly pondered giving up, I’m determined not to let darkness win here. Therefore, after a season of rest and continued Biblical and professional counseling, I will continue to do ministry with an even deeper belief in the goodness of our God and a greater empathy for the deep heartbreak that happens to us all in this broken world.

Many people think Proverbs 31 is a picture of a perfect woman; but the Proverbs 31 woman is, at her core, someone who seeks the Lord in everything she does and trusts Him wholeheartedly with her life. Our mission is to meet women where they are in the real, hard places we all experience, and to intersect God’s Word right there. We are simply a group of women sold out to saying yes to God—and He truly does the rest.

“I would have lost heart, unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.” That’s what the Psalmist wrote long ago (Psalm 27:13) and it beautifully reflects what I’m holding on to in the midst of the deep grief my children and I are now walking through. We have some amazing counselors and pastoral leaders who are committed to helping us pursue healing and learn how to move forward.

What can you do for us? I’d simply ask you to pray. Pray for my precious children and grandchildren. Pray for me. Pray for our team at Proverbs 31. And yes, please, please pray for Art.

I love you all. Most of all, I love the Lord, who first loved me.

This situation is a less clear cut case than an example such as Jenny Ericksen who frivorced her husband. There’s also numerous angles to this, so I’m going to try to hash them all out point by point.

First, I’m always perturbed that when people encounter these types of situations they almost never quote directly from the Scriptures that are relevant to their particular situation. Lysa’s post quotes from Psalms 27, 1 Corinthians 11, and Malachi 3, but doesn’t quote from actual verses that may apply to the situation such as Matthew 18, Matthew 19/Mark 10/Luke 16, 1 Corinthians 7, and 1 Peter 3.

Quotations from this passage may illuminate how the person actually feels and thinks about the situation rather than just giving their platitudes about hope and moving on.

Second, Lysa alleges that Art is clearly in the wrong here but there are a lack of clarify details about Lysa’s involvement in the matter. For example, had Lysa denied Art sex throughout the marriage and/or been too focused on her “career/ministry”, which tempted him to go outside of the marriage? While Lysa alleges that Art’s chose adultery and substance abuse, we have not heard his side of the story to know if these accusations are true.

I’ve seen this termed as “victim blaming” in the comments, but it is clear from 1 Corinthians 7 that her behavior may/could have tempted him on the wrong path. That’s not victim blaming, but simply reality.

Third, much has been written on the topic of divorce. In general, I think 1 Corinthians 7 and 1 Peter 3 apply best to this particular situation:

1 Corinthians 7:10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not [d]leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not [e]divorce his wife.

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not [f]divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not [g]send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through [h]her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called [i]us [j]to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1 Peter 3:1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and [a]respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right [b]without being frightened by any fear.

In general, via 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 Lysa should not have pursued a “divorce” but instead “separation.” However, if she is still open to reconciliation that is the ideal, but she is to remain single if she does not reconcile.

Rather, it is clear by both Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 that those who are not obedient to the teachings of the Church should be treated as unbelievers. Therefore, via 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 and 1 Peter 3:1-6 the “best” option would have been for Lysa to remain with her husband as long as he does not want a divorce and to allow the Lord to work through her righteous behavior to potentially win her husband back to God.

I personally do not fault her for choosing a divorce/separation option, but she also did not make it clear from her post that she was still open to reconciliation and will not remarry. Again, this is the part where clarifying your actions along with Scripture would have been important which would leave less open to negative interpretation.

Fourth, I find it dubious that she is going to take a season for a time, and then prepare to re-enter the ministry with Proverbs 31.

This is not simply because she is a woman leading a Christian ministry. Even if women were permitted in leadership positions in ministry, 1 Timothy 3 clearly speaks that elders and deacons must run their households well. Although she may have done all that she could in order to have a godly marriage, things out the control of a leader can disqualify them from ministry. Being above reproach is a harsh requirement, but it is necessary.

One of the comments from the second article I linked by a ‘Michelle’ seems to likely represent what is going on in Lysa’s statement:

Even IF everything Lysa wrote is a true and accurate representation of what has actually happened in her marriage, is it really a good idea to publicly flog the man who is the father of your kids for the sake of maintaining the moral high ground?

Her public statement felt like little more than a thinly veiled attempt to maintain her status, credibility and public approval as a leader in the Christian community, one that has brought with it a lot of fame, prestige, glamour and wealth.

I get that those are hard things to give up, but I find it a little disconcerting that Lysa seems to be desperately clinging to the carefully crafted persona that she’s created under the claim that “the Lord has now assured me I’ve done all I can do.” Where is the humility here?

A quick look at her public schedule reveals that she has a long lineup of speaking engagements planned long into the future. I’m sure she feels that maintaining the moral high ground is the only way she can save face and keep all those checks rolling in, but at what expense?

No marriage is perfect, and when things go wrong, even if one person has been unfaithful or done wrong, both parties usually share at least some culpability. A celebrity lifestyle–even a Christian one– can easily take its toll on even the healthiest marriage. When your life is filled with adoring fans, sycophantic assistants who tell you what you want to hear, and frequent (first-class) travel, it is easy to lose touch with reality, even when you are supposedly doing it in the name of Jesus.

I’m not saying Lysa is to blame–there is no justification for adultery–but in light of her willingness to publicly throw her husband under the bus in order to preserve her own image, I do think the best thing she can do right now is step out of the spotlight and re-assess. If she truly is being counseled by wise, biblically-minded people, hopefully they are giving her the same advice.

Obviously, this may not be Lysa’s heart, but her statement wasn’t that clear either. Any Christian husband with a wife caught in such a position should also step down from ministry, even if none of it was his fault. Likewise, so too Lysa should step down as well, even if none of it was her fault.

A more compelling story of the power of God to show mercy and compassion would be for her to step down and focus her efforts on reconciliation in her marriage and not her ministry.

In conclusion, numerous points of her story are lacking in clarifying details. It is possible but unlikely that she could be fully faultless. She could also have sinned gravely against him as well. Usually the Truth is somewhere in between.

Based on the Scriptures, separation is a viable route and divorce is not — 1 Coriinthians 7: if she remains single else she reconciles. Albeit we should encourage her to choose the high road which was to stay with him and use the Lord to work through her to win him to Christ.

Finally, she should not continue her ministry for multiple reasons, and focus her efforts on reconciling with her husband. Props to her for having the willingness and attitude to reconcile with her husband for a couple years after she learned of his sin against her. As Christians, we’d like to see that attitude continue.

For all the “non-judgmental” commenters:

Christians are called to judge other Christians according to the standards of the Scripture, and call them back on the right path (Matthew 7 and 18, John 7, 1 Cor 5).

At the very least, given the divorce Lysa should definitely NOT be continuing ministry according to the qualifications given in 1 Tim 3. Throwing away reconciliation to her husband to continue ministry is the exact opposite of what she should have done according the Scripture.

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195 Responses to Another divorce

  1. Robyn says:

    DS: Nicely handled. She’s a blind coward of nice words who’s trying to lick the wounds of her now hardening heart; as she’s thrown her husband to the wolves on this alien planet. She obviously thinks her brother has greater sin than her.

  2. donalgraeme says:

    As a Catholic, everyone knows my position on divorce/remarriage. I agree that staying is the higher moral ground most of the time. What concerns me is the repeated adultery coupled with substance abuse. That last part concerns me. Does she mean alcohol? Or drugs? If the latter, separation for the sake of young children is appropriate. Although it isn’t clear if she has any- she has grandchildren, so hers might be all grown.

    What I am curious about is whether she followed the provision for a sinning Christian. Did she confront him alone? Then with a few others? And then before the Church? If she wanted people to understand why she separated, then that would be the way, I should think.

  3. @ Donal

    All good questions.

    And that’s the main part that concerns me the most. Like the commenter ‘Michelle’ pointed out, the statement seems to be more about saving face. Rather, even if she ‘separated’ it would have been a good idea to show that she is following Biblical prescriptions for marriage via actual quotation of the relevant Scripture and adherence to it.

  4. thedeti says:

    Lysa’s statement reads pretty much the same way just about every divorcing woman couches her leaving:

    “I did absolutely nothing wrong. My soon to be ex husband is a liar, a cheat, a drunk, and an all around bad human being. I had absolutely nothing at all to do with it. I did absolutely everything right in the marriage. I have no idea, none at all, what has possessed my husband to suddenly change, and turn on me, and metamorphose into this horrible, substance abusing, lying, adulterer. It’s not my fault. He is 100% to blame. I am 0% to blame for the implosion of my marriage.”

    Well, Lysa, if you don’t know what happened to Art, why don’t you know? What have you been doing such that Art felt the need to use substances and cheat? Where have you been in your marriage? Yes, Art decided to cheat and that’s on him. But he didn’t just up and decide to cheat one day. Things happened that led up to that. What were those things? And if you don’t know, why don’t you know? It’s your marriage. Can we not expect you to know what is going on in your marriage with your husband? Those things are on you. So you have some fault to bear in your marriage’s failure.

    Also, you say you wanted to reconcile and you wanted to stay married, and he’s continued to cheat. Why is that? How have you been treating him during the past 18 months? Have you treated him with loving kindness and a spirit of forgiveness while holding firm to a requirement that he also return to the marriage with a broken and contrite heart? Or have you lorded over him with judgment and spite and harsh words and lashing out? Have you been kind to him? Or have you poured out hate and vitriol on him?

    Your decision that Art has abandoned your marriage isn’t something you get to decide. What you’re really doing here is trying to give yourself an “out” to remarry or to have later relationships with other men. Not so fast – that’s not your call.

    The failure of your marriage, whatever the cause, means she should step down from ministry. Biblically, she’s prohibited from any active ministry to others involving teaching or preaching (the latter of which she shouldn’t be doing anyway, anywhere, married or not).

  5. Gunner451 says:

    I can see why the guy started to mess around on his wife, looking at her speaking schedule you can tell that there was no time for her to take care of her husbands needs (sex or otherwise). My guess is the marriage ended long ago. Also remember when women start to see you as “inferior” to them the contempt for you starts to be displayed in all sorts of ways, and I’m sure she viewed herself as both the spiritual and economic superior. As far as the substance abuse I’m sure she is referring to alcohol as my ex did the same thing to try and make it sound as bad as possible, and this was only one drink every once in a great while. Let this be a lesson to any man that thinks by supporting his wife’s success that he will be rewarded and adored by her when in fact just the opposite will happen.

  6. thedeti says:

    Lysa should not have announced on her blog that she was divorcing because of Art’s alleged infidelity, unless he gave her permission to do so. It’s pretty clear that the better way to handle it would have been to announce the divorce and step back. Instead, as the commenter DS mentioned in his OP, Lysa’s announcement in this manner appears clearly calculated to preserve her financially and prestigiously lucrative “ministry”. Lysa is a heavy hitter in women’s ministry, she makes money from her books and personal appearances, and she wants to keep it that way. So she’s going to announce this is all Art’s fault, she had nothing to do with it, she did all she could to save it, but Art blew it up, I couldn’t help it, so I’m going to throw myself into my “work” and “ministry” and show you all what a superwoman I am!

  7. thedeti says:

    From Lysa’s website and speaking schedule:

    “Because time and travel are limited for Lysa, our speaking board accepts invitations for events that will have larger impact for the gospel and focuses mainly on conferences with an established attendance over 500.”

    Translation:

    You need to show us you have at least 500 people signed up to attend. Lysa needs paid, upfront, and we need to know that you can and will pay her. We’re also not going to have our star go to Backwaterville and Podunk to speak at little churches/venues because that’s small potatoes small time stuff. It’s gotta be worth it, it’s gotta be mediaworthy, and most of all, you and we need to make sure the money’s there to get her paid. Because we ain’t doing this for free.

  8. Don Quixote says:

    thedeti says:
    June 17, 2017 at 1:59 pm

    Your decision that Art has abandoned your marriage isn’t something you get to decide. What you’re really doing here is trying to give yourself an “out” to remarry or to have later relationships with other men. Not so fast – that’s not your call.

    Sounds like we have a winner.
    My guess is that she will remarry within 5 years. She has put herself in a position to be tempted and she will be tempted. Of course she will declare that God did it all, but if she’d bothered to study what the New Testament actually taught, she would not put herself in such a position.

    Anyhoo remarriage won’t hurt her ~ministry~… it might open new doors {{{{shudder}}}

  9. Novaseeker says:

    Hmm. Interesting.

    I think what is left out of her story is the overall context that led to the affair.

    Just venturing a guess here, but … if you have the travel/speaking schedule that she does, I am guessing she was away from her H most of the time. Now, that isn’t an excuse for infidelity, of course, which is always a personal decision to sin, but it is a *context* in which that decision becomes tempting. She isn’t responsible for his decision, but she is responsible if she created a context where such a decision by him becomes quite tempting, which would be the case if the couple is separated physically as much as her schedule implies.

    As for the substance abuse, be careful. It’s often the case in situations like this that one or both spouses will “self-medicate” with booze, and then that gets used against them in the divorce. If he had a serious history of alcoholism or drug addiction, that’s one thing … if it’s a case of self-medicating in the context of an unraveling marriage, that’s something else entirely, and it generally gets run together, when in fact it’s something entirely different.

  10. Neguy says:

    A better recent divorce that I haven’t seen discussed in these part is Barnabas Piper, John Piper’s son. His wife dumped him without cause. He seems to say her announcement that she planned to divorce him came as a shock, but he did know the marriage was bad for several years. Even the hyper-critical Wartburg Watch site was unable to dig up any specific marital dirt against Piper.

  11. RICanuck says:

    Some Bible Protestant correct me if I misinterpret, but isn’t Proverbs 31 praise for a wife by a man? It seems a bit pretentious for a woman to abandon her husband to a heavy speaking schedule, while calling herself a Proverbs 31 wife.
    The Charisma article also contains an approving comment from Nagmeh Panahi. That makes me suspicious.

    When TerKeurst was dragging her husband around the country for intensive counseling, I wonder how enthusiastic Art was. Did TerKeurst shop for browbeating counselors who would try to force Art to submit to his wife? It would be hard for a man, humiliated by his wife to give up a woman who makes him feel like a man once more.

  12. Robyn says:

    “but isn’t Proverbs 31 praise for a wife by a man?” yep
    one more “egalitarian marriage” to the wood chipper, Prov 14:1.

  13. @Novaseeker:

    The Depression normally pre-dates the Alcoholism, at least one that starts later in life. They’ve been hooked since they were teens, that’s a different issue.

    @Robyn:

    Great reference and accurate.

    @thedeti & DS:

    Lysa appears to be in her late 40s and has 5 children. I can’t seem to easily find rough ages of anyone involved.

    In a situation like this, there’s really only 3 paths that are played out:

    1) The issue always existed at the beginning.
    2) Something significant happened that lead to some substance abuse (seen this from something like a severe injury leading to opiate abuse).
    3) Wife grinds the relationship down over years.

    Given the Wife’s “ministry” and activities, #3 is the more likely. Given the church they operate out of, the Princess/Queen grind from the wife becomes the most likely narrative.

  14. Ame says:

    i know a guy this happened to. he didn’t even drink often, wasn’t known to get drunk – just liked a drink now and then. his ex-wife told a friend of his boss that he was an alcoholic and caused all sorts of problems for him at work. grrr.

  15. Bee says:

    Bottom Line: “The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.” Proverbs 18:17 (NASB translation)

    Until we hear Art’s side of the story it is not even a given that he committed adultery. Her version of substance abuse may be Art having 3 beers a week.

    It is all speculation at this point.

  16. Bee says:

    @Neguy,

    “A better recent divorce that I haven’t seen discussed in these part is Barnabas Piper, John Piper’s son. ”

    Also James Dobson’s son, Ryan, Charles Stanley, a daughter of TJ Jakes, Paula White, etc. Ryan Dobson seems close to his father. Wouldn’t you think that if your dad was James Dobson, that amount of influence and “wisdom” would ensure you would pick a good spouse and have a great marriage?

    Anecdotal, but can these examples be used to get Christian leaders to realize their current emphasis and teachings on marriage, wife and husband roles, wives pursuing ministries, etc are not working?

  17. Bee says:

    @Gunner 451,

    “I can see why the guy started to mess around on his wife, looking at her speaking schedule you can tell that there was no time for her to take care of her husbands needs (sex or otherwise). My guess is the marriage ended long ago. Also remember when women start to see you as “inferior” to them the contempt for you starts to be displayed in all sorts of ways, and I’m sure she viewed herself as both the spiritual and economic superior.”

    Amen.

    Most guys want to marry a wife who will be his helpmeet and support. They don’t want to marry a career girl whom they support. Even if the career is a “Christian ministry”, it is still a career.

    Marrying a career girl is like having a needy, dysfunctional roommate instead of a wife.

  18. Novaseeker says:

    Marrying a career girl is like having a needy, dysfunctional roommate instead of a wife.

    Yes.

    My ex-wife admitted to me once, during the period when we were unraveling, that she didn’t need a husband, but rather a wife (she didn’t mean it in the lesbian sense). Of course she wouldn’t have been happy with a male wife, either — it’s just another example of how confused careerists often are in terms of what they think they want vs what they need. In reality, women who are that focused on their careers really should be single — they won’t be able to be helpmeets to a traditional man, and they also won’t be happy having a male wife as a husband.

  19. Wizard Prang says:

    Not very biblical, to be sure, but the first thing that crossed my mind was the Gospel according to Austin Danger Powers:

    “THAT’S A MAN, BABY!”

  20. Gee “life partner”. That’s almost as bad as soul mate. The partnership is not living up to expectations and a splitting up of our sectors may improve future outlook. But she still has God. Lets hope God in his Wisdom sends her a restraining order to seek out other rationalizations.
    For richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, through tough times, with support of all kinds. I have the power of Divorce Court!
    Remember, men are from cars, and women are from crazyworld.

  21. Found this critique of her ministry as well on the front page of google. Included links of the offenses in said article.

    https://michellelesleybooks.com/2015/07/31/leaving-lysa-why-you-shouldnt-be-following-lysa-terkeurst-or-proverbs-31-ministries/

    1. Lysa unrepentantly preaches to and instructs men in violation of 1 Timothy 2:12-14 (as well as the many other passages of Scripture that do not allow this). Without exception, every female Bible teacher I know of who unrepentantly instructs men also teaches other doctrinal error (usually Word of Faith or seeker driven false doctrine).

    […]

    2. Lysa is a member of Steven Furtick’s Elevation Church (where she has preached the Sunday morning service on multiple occasions), and has written articles and made videos supporting his false and eisegetical teaching. She has also preached the Sunday morning service at Perry Noble’s New Spring Church.

    If you are not familiar with either of these men, you should know that they both egregiously and narcissistically mishandle God’s word (click links above). Both of them support and agree with prosperity preachers such as T.D. Jakes, Joyce Meyer, Christine Caine, etc., and many of these have preached at their churches. Perry Noble is perhaps most famous for having AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell” played during his Easter Sunday service a few years ago.

    […]

    3. Lysa partners with and calls Christine Caine a “dear friend”. Christine Caine also unrepentantly preaches to men and is a proponent of the false Word of Faith (prosperity gospel) doctrine, as a leader at Word of Faith “church,” Hillsong. Because this is “another gospel,” (Galatians 1:6-9), partnering with Caine is a violation of 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. (Please see Jessica Kramasz’s comments at the end of this article for other teachers Lysa partners with whose teachings are, at best, questionable. The links she lists provide an explanation of the teachings of these folks.)

    4. As many other popular Christian teachers do these days, Lysa promotes the unbiblical practice of “listening prayer,” which is a form of contemplative prayer. Not only is this practice itself not mentioned or taught anywhere in Scripture, the mere suggestion that we need to be hearing – audibly or inaudibly – the voice of God during prayer flies in the face of clear biblical pronouncements that God’s word, and God’s word alone, is all we need and all we are to look to for the doctrine and practice of the Christian faith.

    […]

    To be fair, this seems like a long list of “common errors” that “Christian ministries” all peddle nowadays.

    We shouldn’t be surprised things that aren’t built on the solid Rock of Jesus are crumbling down.

  22. Robyn says:

    DS: …. “all peddle nowadays.” True statement: “For we are not, like so many, [like HUCKSTERS making a trade of] PEDDLING God’s Word [shortchanging and adulterating the divine message]; but like [men] of sincerity and the purest motive, as [commissioned and sent] by God, we speak [His message] in Christ (the Messiah), in the [very] sight and presence of God.” 2 Cor 2:17

    “huckster” is the perfect visual.

  23. feeriker says:

    Gunner451 on June 17, 2017 at 2:15 pm

    This.

    Lysa didn’t need Art as a husband anymore, even if she didn’t verbalize it. Her schedule said it for her. She, in turn, has not only NOT been behaving like a “Proverbs 31” wife, she’s not been behaving like a wife, period.

    I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a thousand times if I have to, since women are so hopeless at connecting cause and effect:

    Ladies, take care of your husband’s needs. If you don’t, some other woman will, guaranteed.

    Yes, what Art did was wrong. It was also all but inevitable under the circumstances Lysa created. She might as well have gift-wrapped “the Other Woman” and handed her to Art on a silver platter.

  24. feeriker says:

    “Marrying a career girl is like having a needy, dysfunctional roommate instead of a wife.”

    “In reality, women who are that focused on their careers really should be single — they won’t be able to be helpmeets to a traditional man, and they also won’t be happy having a male wife as a husband.”

    While lots of women, Christian or non, champ at the bit to get married, almost none of them have any interest in being wives.

    Lysa TerKeurst might have been serious about the whole “wife” gig years ago, but once fame and fortune (such as they are in her line of “work”) arrived on her doorstep, that quickly became passé. Now she’s just fronting, misrepresenting herself to whole new generations of impressionable, biblically ignorant and illiterate Millennial and Gen Z women who, like Lysa, dig the whole feel-good, ego-inflating aura surrounding the phrase “Proverbs 31 woman” without having read the chapter or having any real idea what that phrase even means.

    Lysa most definitely needs to stop it with “ministry,” right now. She’s in the particularly unenviable position of being compromised in something she shouldn’t have even been doing in the first place.

  25. Bee says:

    Lysa background from her bio:

    After her younger sister died Lysa became very promiscuous and had an abortion. Therefore, she entered her marriage to Art with a high N count and the trauma of an abortion.

    She helped found the ministry over 20 years ago. She has written 19 books. She speaks at 40 large events a year. She is in her 40’s. She has five children. Therefore she was working in the ministry when each of her children were very young. Most likely that Art has been doing much, possibly the majority, of the home care and childcare duties for years. No mention of Art or her marriage in her bio.

    http://lysaterkeurst.com/lysas_story/

  26. Bee says:

    Correction:

    I said she is in her 40’s, but I do not have any proof of that. She could be a little older than that. Sorry.

  27. Novaseeker says:

    She helped found the ministry over 20 years ago. She has written 19 books. She speaks at 40 large events a year. She is in her 40’s. She has five children. Therefore she was working in the ministry when each of her children were very young. Most likely that Art has been doing much, possibly the majority, of the home care and childcare duties for years. No mention of Art or her marriage in her bio.

    Yep, it’s very, very sketchy when you connect the dots, honestly.

  28. feeriker says:

    Lysa background from her bio:

    That explains volumes. I’m also sure that the irony of being part of a ministry called “Proverbs 31” and yet completely neglecting to focus on her husband and children utterly escapes Lysa.

    Most likely that Art has been doing much, possibly the majority, of the home care and childcare duties for years.

    No woman respects a “kitchen bitch.” As I said upthread, Art has outlived his usefulness as a prop in her SIW life narrative (her kids probably have too, to the extent she ever paid them any attention). He probably realized that too, which is probably why he essentially checked out of his marriage.

    A very, very damaged woman, this one, who clearly had no business trying to minister to others when she hadn’t even yet healed herself.

  29. feeriker says:

    From the Charisnanews link:

    Naghmeh Panahi, ex-wife of former persecuted pastor Saeed Abedini, was among TerKeurst’s supporters.

    ’nuff said.

  30. Novaseeker says:

    No woman respects a “kitchen bitch.”

    Yep. What you need to do, if you are talented in the kitchen (I am), is to make her your sous-chef. She is participating, she sees your mastery, and all is well, and you are not a kitchen bitch, but the master chef. Of course, you need to be able to do that in terms of skill.

  31. anonymous_ng says:

    No woman respects a “kitchen bitch.”

    Also, no woman likes to be told that the only thing you need from her is kids and sex. Not one of my finer moments. That’s not what killed my marriage, but it sure didn’t help.

  32. Robyn says:

    To feeriker: “I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a thousand times if I have to, since women are so hopeless at connecting cause and effect:” It’s not that we CANNOT connect the dots; it’s the blinding of feminism that tells us we don’t like the picture that the dots make. I would NEVER have seen it if it wasn’t for God showing me that I had it backward.

    “Ladies, take care of your husband’s needs. If you don’t, some other woman will, guaranteed.” I truly believe that’s exactly what Proverbs 14:1 means by the destruction of the ‘home’. Men crave female adoration, the less you give your husband through your own financial independence, the broader the road becomes away from your marriage.

    YES and Amen feeriker! Keep saying it anyway.

  33. feeriker says:

    Men crave female adoration,

    Respect, recognition, and affection (physical and emotional) actually rank far above adoration.

  34. Robyn says:

    They’re the same, I just choose the word adoration because it works for me.

    synonyms:
    1) love, devotion, care, fondness; admiration, high regard, awe, idolization, worship, hero worship, adulation – “the girl gazed at him with adoration”
    worship, glory, glorification, praise, thanksgiving, homage, exaltation, veneration, reverence

    2) worship; veneration.

  35. Robyn says:

    … women understand it better as adoration. men think it sounds weak, … to need adoration, they prefer words like respect etc. It’s really just a matter of how it sounds going into the “blue” ear instead of the “pink” one.

  36. thedeti says:

    adoration, respect, recognition, affection, whatever.

    Makes me wonder sometimes why women marry men they don’t feel these things for and show these things to from the very get go.

  37. Robyn says:

    It’s only a “whatever” when it’s spoken in reference to all men. Wives are commanded to follow the hierarchy that God has set forth. Each man is different in how this need is met, it depends on each wife’s own husband. That’s why God stipulates OWN husband in regards to all things dealing with that relationship.

  38. Whelp, based on all of the information from her background, it’s pretty much looking like the typical case that the ‘manosphere’ has commented on thoroughly.

    1. Woman has childhood trauma of some sort (in this case, sister died)
    2. Said woman becomes promiscuous and has abortion
    3. Said woman is a career woman.

    4. It would be unwise for a man to marry such a woman, but does anyway because he was never taught that there are risks to promiscuous and/or career women. Quite the opposite from the MSM: promiscuous and career women are good to marry because they have experience and can bring in money. Also the Church: She’s forgiven and it was all in her past! Man up and marry that slut!

    5. Now wife is consumed with popping out babies and her burgeoning time-consuming career.
    6. Husband is relegated to backseat and neglected for years.
    7. Once the children have grown up and moved out, it’s time for the ending

    Usually the ending is:

    7. Wife frivorces him.

    However, in this case, Art decided to sin too by going the adultery route.

    7. Art engages in adultery, which was likely influenced by spousal neglect of sex, respect, affection (career > husband)
    8. Lysa finds out and “goes through the motions of counseling” so she can divorce him and claim moral high ground

    Wish I could say this wasn’t true, but based on the investigation of her background it’s highly likely based on the continuous examples of this that we have been provided by over the course of the year. I’m happy to be proven wrong though, if more evidence comes out.

    To quote from Andy Stanley (even though his egalitarian outlook on marriage is wholly heretical):

    It is foolish to ignore statistics. […] You are unique. God created you to be unique. But your experiences are not unique.

    Behavioral patterns are a real things, kids.

    Bad idea to marry a promiscuous women. Bad idea to marry a career women.

  39. Robyn says:

    “8. Lysa finds out and “goes through the motions of counseling” so she can divorce him and claim moral high ground”

    DS, I would like to know your opinion on “marriage counseling.” I’m asking for a couple of reasons. First, personally, we had marriage counseling on 3 separate occasions. In all 3 cases, it made our marriage worse. In the end, we were told to not seek marriage counseling. Second, I personally don’t know of any couple that has been through “marriage counseling” and it benefited. (that’s not to say it’s not out there).

    My question is, what is the Scriptural back-up for marriage counseling, specifically. I know there’s verses for seeking counsel in general, but do you know for marriage?

  40. feeriker says:

    To quote from Andy Stanley (even though his egalitarian outlook on marriage is wholly heretical):

    Ironic (but not surprising) that Stanley would cite statistics, given that egalitarian marriages are those most susceptible to ending in divorce.

  41. @ Robyn

    I’ve never heard of any case of marriage counseling work. Of course, they never preach Biblical roles and responsibilities. That’s the only thing that works.

    I’ve heard of maybe one or two cases of ‘informal’ counseling where the women were told to learn how to be content, respect, and submit while the men were told to be better leaders (and not servant leadership bunk). It’s unsurprising that it worked.. but it’s definitely NOT the norm.

    If anything, fellow Christians should be coming alongside to provide encouragement for adherence to Scriptural roles and responsibilities. That seems like the best way to go, as counseling is basically AMOG’ing the husband 99.99% of the time.

  42. @ feeriker

    Heh.

    Many pastors are smart people…. until they get into the realm of intersex relationships.

    Then they become scared weenies.

  43. RICanuck says:

    @deep strength re. Michelle Lesley and listening prayer

    I have heard the voice of God. It may not be ‘biblical’, but I have heard it. Not with ‘listening prayer’, but while reading the Bible or through some other prayer.

    It has always been a conviction of some grievous sin I was committing.

  44. RICanuck says:

    @ Robyn and Deep Strength

    One of my sons told me about one of his co-workers who went through counseling. The husband decided to stay in the marriage until the children are self supporting. Then he’s kicking that bitch to the curb, and counting down the days.

  45. RICanuck says:

    @feeriker
    “Ladies, take care of your husband’s needs. If you don’t, some other woman will, guaranteed.”
    Betty Wright said it back in 1971.

  46. Elspeth says:

    There aren’t very many intersexual truisms that you won’t find expressed in an old R & B song. Or an old country song, for that matter.

    Nothing new under the sun, and all that jazz.

  47. Ame says:

    i spent 2.5 years in intense therapy about 12-13 years ago with an experienced, male, biblical counselor. he worked me through my husband’s addictions, infidelity, and the abuse i grew up with. from all i’ve heard about counselors since, he was and is very rare. he didn’t let me get away with anything. he kicked my butt and straightened me out. it was intensely hard work.

    my husband began seeing him, too, and ONE time we went together for a ‘marriage’ session b/c i really wanted it – even the counselor was against it saying they rarely did any good. he was right. it was terrible. there were some beneficial things that came out of it but not in terms of ‘marriage counseling.’

    from my personal experience, i think individual counseling, when counseling is needed, is much more effective when a person is willing to work on their own stuff. if you’re not willing to work on you, there’s no point in counseling.

    before i learned what my husband was involved in, he’d begun acting in very scary and intense ways, so i went to a female counselor and said to her, “I don’t want to be told to get divorced, but I need to know how to live with this man in this marriage.” she was also a Christian and biblical counselor and gave me very wise advice and guidance. (i did not see her after i found out what he was dealing with b/c she was not experienced in those areas).

    the male counselor mentioned above was actually the 2nd counselor i visited after i found out everything. the first was also a female counselor, but in our very first session she told me i was going to get divorced. i dumped her and found the male counselor. she claimed to be a Christian and biblical counselor, but obviously she wasn’t.

  48. Ame says:

    charles stanley is a Fraud.

  49. @ RICanuck

    I have heard the voice of God. It may not be ‘biblical’, but I have heard it. Not with ‘listening prayer’, but while reading the Bible or through some other prayer.

    Yeah, I don’t think that part is necessarily off. 1 John 4 basically says to test the spirits if you’re hearing anything.

    Additionally, God has spoken to many people in the OT and NT in many different ways. Samuel is one that sticks out where God calls him multiple times before they figure out what’s going on.

    The problem mainly occurs when people hear stuff as “God” and it directly contradicts His Word. For example, this situation where God said it’s all you can do and now you divorce. God would NEVER say to divorce. It’s against His Word. That’s another lying spirit.

  50. feeriker says:

    I’ve never heard of any case of marriage counseling work. Of course, they never preach Biblical roles and responsibilities. That’s the only thing that works.

    That the Usual Suspects (e.g., the FotF crowd, Piper, etc.) are the biggest advocates of marriage counseling makes it something to be avoided at all costs if you want your marriage to survive intact.

    Someday those heretical frauds will be compelled to confess that the destruction of biblical marriages was the goal all along. “Marriage counseling” has been the cover for plausible deniabilty needed for the process to work its toxic havoc.

  51. feeriker says:

    charles stanley is a Fraud.

    If they have a major media plaform, prominence, million-dollar ministries, and a large congregation of followers, they’re pretty much all frauds.

  52. My husband and I have actually been seeing a marriage counsellor over the last few months.
    It has been helpful for the most part, especially in the areas of communication and conflict resolution.
    At times it felt like it was causing more arguments, but I think that’s more because it was bringing up things that were under the surface but we weren’t talking about.
    (Sorry for being so vague, you just never know who is lurking!)
    In our case, it’s definitely not “checking a box” on the way to divorce. Rather, it’s our commitment to the permanence of marriage that led us to pursue counselling.

  53. @ Neguy

    A better recent divorce that I haven’t seen discussed in these part is Barnabas Piper, John Piper’s son. His wife dumped him without cause. He seems to say her announcement that she planned to divorce him came as a shock, but he did know the marriage was bad for several years. Even the hyper-critical Wartburg Watch site was unable to dig up any specific marital dirt against Piper.

    Yeah, I haven’t heard much about that either and did a bit of digging. Couldn’t find anything.

    Looks like he just got frivorced and that’s it.

    Egalitarians and complementarians are both not following God’s model, so it’s to be expected though.

  54. Robyn says:

    DS: “as counseling is basically AMOG’ing the husband 99.99% of the time.”

    Interesting. Thanks

  55. Ame says:

    it would be unwise to lump ALL marriage counseling into the ‘bad’ box. while i believe *most* of it is not beneficial for a myriad of reasons, there will always be some of it that’s good out there in some form – whether formally or informally.

  56. Ame says:

    i knew a woman caught in an affair with her husband’s best friend, and her response was, “He is an answer to prayer!” ummmm … never.

  57. Bee says:

    @Deep Strength,

    “Second, her husband Art is clearly in the wrong here on multiple accounts, but there are a lack of clarify details about Lysa’s involvement in the matter. For example, had Lysa denied Art sex throughout the marriage and/or been too focused on her “career/ministry”, which tempted him to go outside of the marriage? While that would still be Art’s fault for choosing adultery and substance abuse, …..”

    Lysa has a well known blog and thus a powerful megaphone to tell her side of the story. I did a quick search and did not find a blog for Art. It appears that he owns or manages a Chick-Fil-A franchise.

    Because we have not heard Art’s side of the story we don’t know the whole truth. Based on Proverbs 18:17, which was the focus of an earlier comment I made, would you be open to making the following change in your post?

    Second, Lysa alleges that Art is clearly in the wrong here but there are a lack of clarify details about Lysa’s involvement in the matter. For example, had Lysa denied Art sex throughout the marriage and/or been too focused on her “career/ministry”, which tempted him to go outside of the marriage? While Lysa alleges that Art’s chose adultery and substance abuse, we have not heard his side of the story to know if these accusations are true.

  58. Swanny River says:

    I am with the others on here who are skeptical of the substance abuse claims. It is too easy to believe that someone who is justifying oneself to her extent (Job is close to Proverbs 31, she would do well to read it again) is being legalistic about drinking, and I am confident the issue is probably beer. In fact, if there was no adultery, but just the drinking, I wonder if she would have still jumped ship. Guesses?
    Some of you mentioned not helping him, and its shocking but was always encouraging to me that Dr. Laura got it and told her female listeners repeatedly to smile, be pleasant, be interested, feed us, and give us sex. I always liked her saying that, even though I was blue pill at the time.
    Great points about counseling,maintaining roles isn’t on theagenda.

  59. Art and Lysa’s adult daughters both seem to verify Lysa’s account of what has happened:

    I know why you're here because I would be doing the same thing. Flipping through our family's social accounts trying to gather more details than what has already been said. Looking through pictures and making assumptions that we are all doing just fine and this isn't effecting us. But that is not the truth. The truth is this past year has been the biggest roller coaster of emotions & events, intense week long counseling sessions, the biggest thing in my life kept private, and one strong family. Because of the pain of having to be kept quiet, I've never struggled with friendships or loneliness more. There is a lot of uncertainty. I feel like my life the past year has been kind of like standing on sinking sand. I never knew when things would sink or stay put. But here are the things I know to be certain: 1) My family is the greatest family I've ever known. Satan's ultimate goal was for this to destroy us. But God has orchestrated amazing counselors and people to help us move forward in God’s Will for our family. 2) My mom has done EVERYTHING to get us all healing. I've never seen any other mom take care of their kids the way my mom has in this season. She is the strongest human I know and she is fiercely moving our family forward with the help we all need. 3) God is good. My circumstances right now are not. But this is just one season out of many. During this season I've really tried to hold on to the joyful moments. God is in complete control over this whole situation. He will bring His name Glory from it. I’m confident He has not left us or forsaken us. He is close to the brokenhearted. (The Lord is close to the brokenhearted; He rescues those whose spirits are crushed. Psalm 34:18) I know we are not alone. Many have walked this broken path before us. That comforts me. Thank you for your prayers in advance 💗

    A post shared by Hope TerKeurst Houser (@hopeterk) on

    Hi! My name is Ashley if we haven't met. I'm sure you're here to see what's going on… I get it. I'm a curious person too and I'm sure I would be doing the same thing. I can tell you what you will find if you scroll through my feed… you'll find lots of smiling pictures, pictures with people, things, and events that have lit up my world and brought me joy in the hardest season of my life. Does that make me fake? No, it means I’m human. I'm in denial that this is all actually happening and that's okay. We all have our own ways of grieving. Our family was keeping this situation private until we knew the outcome. . Am I okay? No, not really… but I will be! I have a God who has given me so much supernatural strength and peace, it would blow your mind. No, I don’t like this storm that I'm navigating and no, I don't like what has happened to me, but Jesus is with me. I am not alone and God is in control, which takes the burden off of me and allows me to have peace beyond understanding. I am under the control of a God who cares about me and loves me unconditionally! I’m determined to walk through this trial in a way that will reveal JESUS. My tears will turn into victory!! And that's enough to give me joy and put a big ol' smile on my face! . How can you help? – PRAY PRAY PRAY! Thank you for all your prayers in advance 💗 – PLEASE pray for my mom. If you could have seen the way she has served and loved my dad and us children, you would be amazed. She has walked through one of the hardest things and throughout it all has been the most loving, forgiving, generous, selfless, gracious, strong, godly woman I have EVER seen. . The darker it gets, the brighter the light shines. The more impossible it gets, the more it becomes evident that the only answer is Jesus.

    A post shared by Ashley TerKeurst Hodges (@ashleyterk) on

  60. @ seriouslyserving

    Adultery is generally not something you make up, albeit we’ve seen cases where it was “emotional adultery” and not actually “adultery.”

    Parents can also turn their children against the other parent.

    Overall, though, wouldn’t be surprised to hear it was actual adultery.

    I think it’s unlikely we’ll get more facts, but the ones given are not clear enough to make any particular conclusions. They don’t look good for each side though.

  61. Ame says:

    if she had not written in such a way to place all the blame on her husband … if she had resigned from full-time ‘ministry,’ … she would have a bit more credibility. no one going thru divorce should remain in ministry.

  62. Ame says:

    also … reading her daughters’ words is heart-breaking. they’re a facade … something to say when there’s really nothing to say. kids shouldn’t have to defend their parents like this. they didn’t dis their dad … they tried to support their mom. NO kid wants their parents to divorce regardless of how old they are. my parents divorced when i was in my 40’s and it sucked. and NO kid wants to have to choose sides or have to defend either parent – and NO kid wants anyone talking bad about their parents. it’s the i-can-talk-bad-about-them-but-you-can’t-thing.

  63. feeriker says:

    no one going thru divorce should remain in ministry.

    It’s amazing how quick churches are to disqualify someone from ministry when it comes to every other sin referenced in Scripture (and many that are not), but they’ll turn the blindest of eyes to both adultery and divorce (or, at worst, confer a slap on the wrist and a temporary, painless zanction before allowing the status quo to continue).

  64. Ame says:

    sigh. sadly, yes. and though i’m a bit jaded having several family members in full-time vocational ‘ministry’ and having been by far *not* their most fav person … and having seen up-close-and-personal inside quite a few ministries and churches from several different angles … you could have simply written, “It’s amazing how quick churches are to …” and it would have been complete.

    the good news to offset that is that those of us who are Believers can be different. we can speak Truth in love – not squishiness, but firm love. we can live Truth. we can act out what we believe. we can set a different example. we won’t think many are watching, but they are.

    when all the stuff went down with my first husband, our back-door neighbors watched every bit of it, daily, as it played out over several years. they were Muslim in belief though i don’t think in practice. the wife and i became friends united by oldest daughters the same age and younger daughters with special needs. i didn’t hide anything from them, meaning i didn’t candy-coat life. one summer they were preparing to go back to the middle east to visit family for the summer, and i just felt led by God to give her my very first bible. it had all the markings inside it from over the years, and i also wrote a personal inscription to her. they had a bunch of people over the night i gave it to her, and she was so touched she showed it to all her friends. that summer they were in a place where there were bombings going on around them, and these parents found themselves laying over their children, covering their children from the debris. one family member had remained behind due to work obligations, and i was able to stay in contact with him. i told him frequently to tell them that i was praying for them – they know my God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. they were able to escape to a different country and eventually fly back home. we never talked about the bible again or that summer, but they know. we’ve moved since then, but they still watch me from afar.

    i hate what the church (several organized churches) did to my girls and me, but i don’t have to live like they do. we can be different … even and especially from those who claim they believe.

  65. Lost Patrol says:

    Throughout the men’s sphere I have only seen words of support for marriage counseling from women. Are there men that have positive experiences with marriage counseling? I can’t remember any reporting that. Usually quite the contrary if addressed at all.

    I’ve never heard more than half a divorce story. The suspicions of several commenters here are only bolstered by the words of the daughter:

    “My mom has done EVERYTHING to get us all healing. I’ve never seen any other mom take care of their kids the way my mom has in this season. She is the strongest human I know and she is fiercely moving our family forward”

    Add it to everything else and it has the smell of woman in command. That doesn’t just pop up on the scope out of nowhere based on a sudden need, she has probably been in charge for some time. A likely factor in the equation.

  66. Don Quixote says:

    Lost Patrol says:
    June 20, 2017 at 9:01 pm

    Throughout the men’s sphere I have only seen words of support for marriage counseling from women. Are there men that have positive experiences with marriage counseling?

    I think DS said it up-thread: “most marriage counselling is amoging”.
    During the early 90s this was what I experienced. Either a pastor amoging or an egalitarian counsellor spreading their own crazy brand of confusion.

    Just from this thread alone see how many high profile divorces are in the churches. These high profile clerics won’t tell people the hard truths about divorce and remarriage. They are vainly hoping that Jesus didn’t mean what He said. If people want to know the hard truths regarding remarriage they will have to find it themselves. If anyone is interested click on my name.

  67. Just a couple more thoughts on our experience with marriage counselling:
    – The guy we saw did actually point us back to Biblical roles for husband and wife in the very first meeting. He set this up as the kind of foundation that we needed to base everything else on.
    – I did notice a little bit of Amoging going on, but when I did, I was careful just to sit quietly and not nod or smile along. It certainly wasn’t like that the whole time or even most of the time.
    – My husband also found it helpful, but says that it’s now up to us to do the work and apply a lot of what we learnt.

  68. Wood Chipper says:

    https://www.theedgescollective.com/home/2017/6/19/fighting-for-my-wife

    This guy made a long to-do list for himself to make sure he isn’t similarly unfaithful after hearing this news. My favorite is where he chooses to defer to God…and his wife, lol!

  69. anonymous_ng says:

    My experience with marriage counselling is that unless both are actually, honestly, and for true, willing to listen to the other person, and willing to try and change, there’s no point, and even if both of those things are true, there still may be no point.

    The only thing my ex wanted was her life to be without issue. If I had problems, or complaints, or issues with her, the didn’t even penetrate her consciousness.

    The kids see the same thing.

  70. Bee says:

    Lysa is age 47 now. She says she helped found this marriage over 20 years ago. So she was actively teaching other women when she was in her mid-20’s or earlier. There are many good reasons the Bible says that it should be older women teaching the younger women. When Lysa began teaching:

    1. her children were not grown
    2. her marriage was not established and mature
    3. Lysa herself was not mature, it takes many years and humility to work through the kind of baggage she brought into her marriage (high N count, abortion, child of divorce, etc.)
    4. There was not enough years of faithful serving in small things to verify that Lysa was a mature, solid, healthy person who respected her husband

  71. Ame says:

    Lost Patrol says:
    June 20, 2017 at 9:01 pm
    “Throughout the men’s sphere I have only seen words of support for marriage counseling from women. Are there men that have positive experiences with marriage counseling? I can’t remember any reporting that. Usually quite the contrary if addressed at all.”

    – – – – –
    Don Quixote says:
    June 21, 2017 at 2:09 am
    “I think DS said it up-thread: “most marriage counselling is amoging”.
    During the early 90s this was what I experienced. Either a pastor amoging or an egalitarian counsellor spreading their own crazy brand of confusion.”

    – – – – –
    anonymous_ng says:
    June 21, 2017 at 12:35 pm
    “My experience with marriage counselling is that unless both are actually, honestly, and for true, willing to listen to the other person, and willing to try and change, there’s no point, and even if both of those things are true, there still may be no point.”

    _________________________

    i had not thought of professional counseling from these pov’s before, but i can see they are valid.

    i would guess that men would be more receptive to the opinion of other men whom they know and respect? not necessarily a ‘professional counselor,’ but definitely a man who has earned their respect.

    i would also guess that most effective ‘counseling’ would be more along the lines of gaining perspective from, again, someone one knows whom they respect – a parent, relative, friend, someone who’s a bit further down the road of life than themselves.

    i believe the reason therapy-counseling was so effective for me was b/c i had so much of my own stuff to work through that was so harsh few could handle all those ugly details with perspective, force me to see them for what they were, and guide me to deal with them properly and effectively and move on.

    one of the BEST things my male counselor did for me was explain, very explicitly, how men think and why they act certain ways and what’s a big deal and what just isn’t, and how God made them and how we’re different and how that’s good. he didn’t let me get away with thinking or believing the status quo or cultural beliefs or bs; he was quite honest. i needed to know these things. (i was also very thankful for the great art work in his office that gave me something else to look at while he taught me stuff.)

    where i think therapy could have helped my first husband is if he had used it to deal with the unnatural things his parents did to him (some really bizarre and weird and unhealthy and manipulative stuff). it would have been good for him to talk about it with someone who could look at it objectively and say, “This was good. This was bad. This was stupid. This was flat-out wrong. And here’s how to deal with that and move on.” he didn’t need years of therapy, but he did need to, at some point, at least be honest with himself about the things that happened. i think THE saddest part of all of it was at his funeral where his dad and brother gave the eulogy – they are both ordained ministers, and they were both so incredibly disrespectful to him that even i was shocked. they were so rude and disrespectful that two long-time family people came up afterwards and apologized to me for their behavior. it was a sad reflection of how they’d treated him all his life. he needed someone objective to tell him that these people were wrong, not him.

  72. Ame says:

    “Bee
    6h ago”

    THIS.

  73. Bee says:

    “Lysa is age 47 now. She says she helped found this marriage….”

    Should be:

    Lysa is age 47 now. She says she helped found this ministry……

  74. Jennifer Schmitt says:

    This is why I am no longer a Christian. Seriously you all are so barbaric and old-fashioned in your thinking. What a shame that women still believe they shouldn’t remarry if they divorce a man, even if they divorced him for every right reason. Geez! What a bunch of idiots you all are not to learn to think for yourself. The day I gave up my Christian cloak and realized that there really was no God and it was a way for men to control women was the most empowering day of my life. Sad that there are still sheep in 2017 who can’t and won’t think for themselves. Jesus hasn’t come back in 2000 years…… pretty sure he is never come back because he can’t. But you all will still taut the idea that women should be submissive and not remarry even though it’s not against the Bible for a man to do so. Whew! I thank the universe I am no longer blinded like you all!!!!

  75. @ Jennifer Schmitt

    I thought about treating you as a troll, but I’ll give you a serious response.

    The thing about not believing in God is that those who are “moral relativists” (e.g. atheists) cannot accuse someone of right, wrong, being an idiot, blinded, and so on because you have no standard of Truth. Someone could be a mass murderer and rapist and you have no ground to tell them that he or she is wrong.

    It’s quite the unfortunate position to be in, and it renders your comment as totally useless.

    Have a good day.

  76. Oscar says:

    @ DS

    I wrote this over at Dalrock’s.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/06/21/straining-out-gnats/#comment-237132

    Thanks to one of the commenters dropping truth bombs on Mr. Willard’s article, we now have some of the background story courtesy of an article Lysa Terkeurst wrote in 2008. Apparently, Mrs. Terkeurst and her husband (Art) had sex before marriage, she got pregnant and she had an abortion. And, apparently, the guilt turned her into… this…

    http://www.todayschristianwoman.com/articles/2008/september/i-had-abortion.html

    “‘You’re late. Again’, I said as I glared at my husband, Art.

    ‘I’m sorry. Traffic was a nightmare’.

    Not the traffic excuse again, I fumed as I filled Art’s plate and slapped it onto the table. We’d been married only two months, but the honeymoon phase was definitely over—in fact, it had never existed.

    I forced myself to eat despite the tension crackling between us. As Art took a bite, I was sure I saw an odd expression cross his face.

    ‘What’s wrong?’ I demanded.

    He frowned. ‘Nothing!’

    ‘You made a funny face. You don’t like it, do you? You hate my cooking!’ And you hate me, I mentally added.

    Art slammed down his fork. ‘What is wrong with you? You’re behaving like a nutcase! You overreact to everything, and it’s driving me crazy!’

    His words cut me to the bone. ‘If you were a better husband and loved me more, I wouldn’t be so emotional!” I lashed out in retaliation’.” ~ Lysa Terkeurst

    She sounds lovely. A real peach. She ends the article this way.

    “Art and I are a team. We’ve made the decision that we’re going to have a good marriage, and we’re both committed to that decision—whatever it takes. We’re still human, and we still get irritated with each other. But we no longer explode in anger. We try to laugh a lot. We give grace a lot. We know a successful marriage isn’t a matter of chance, but of choice. And it’s a choice we make every day.” ~ Lysa Terkeurst

    Maybe that last paragraph is true. Maybe. But I find it a lot easier to believe that she remained a bag of nuts and drove her husband (and father of their five children) to drink and into the arms of another woman.

  77. @ Oscar

    Thanks for posting it here.

    Sounds like both of them have/had issues and never really worked them out as much as they said they did.

    Without consistently good character and the transforming power of Jesus, any marriage AND ministry will implode.

    Not surprised in the least.

  78. @Oscar:

    Good find.

    So, years ago, she murdered one of his children. The marriage was always toast from the start because he could, at the instinctive level, never trust her.

    As I said way up thread, these things are going to be 1 of 3 things: doomed from the start, blown up by some freak incident leading to drug problems or the result of the wife grinding her Man into oblivion. Turns out it was 1 & 3.

    He was used so she could signal her own virtue, including adopting two children after she murdered one of his. Instincts are instincts, and she did something extremely evil to him that can’t be repaired in this life. Thus he found a way to dull the pain.

    Evil begets more evil when it isn’t removed from your life.

  79. Lost Patrol says:

    that there really was no God

    On the contrary. There really are no atheists, only different gods. Jennifer has chosen herself as god. This is one of the more popular choices even though it rarely turns out well.

  80. Sophia says:

    One aspect of this entire situation that few talk about is Lysa’s daughters,, the “family business” aspect of the ministry, and their presence on social media. All three daughters (Hope, 23, Ashley, 21, Brooke, 18) work or have worked for Lysa’s ministry. While the two oldest attended college, it appears they dropped out to work for mom. Their Instagram accounts read more like the Kardashians as there are mostly professionally-shot pictures of clothes and bikinis (with links that generate income), shots of vacation spots (travels with mom for the “ministry”) and lots of envy-inspiring glossy shots of food and beautiful homes. In Lysa’s latest book “Uninvited” it is ironic that she posts about the dangers of social media and jealousy when she supports her own daughters in creating those types of posts and images.

    Both of the oldest daughters married in 2016, the oldest in February and the younger in April. Both have professionally-produced wedding films posted on youtube (middle daughter’s film has almost 2 million views). What is interesting is that both weddings took place during the time where supposedly the family was going through counseling because Art’s infidelities were already known. (Daughters and Lysa both said they knew for 18 months) Yet in both videos Art is portrayed as a godly father and husband as he even reads very spiritual letters of advice. The narrative of the “perfect Terkeurst Christian family” is very much supported in both videos which is confusing if everyone knew of his cheating. How could Art be the godly father and husband then but not now? What changed? Or was it that Lysa reached a point where she knew the truth would come out and she had to do damage control at all costs?

    The youngest daughter Brooke has a youtube video log (which is the most meaningless and vacuous thing I have seen to date) which surprisingly has a lot of personal home videos of the family which are very telling if you match them up with a timeline. October 2016 has a video of her going to lunch after church with her sister and husband and Art (Lysa was out of town at a conference). If she was truly “fighting for her marriage” shouldn’t she be home? The Christmas 2016 video log also profiles their Christmas morning and again Art is there, the perfect family narrative again strongly supported. If you peruse their social media it seems obvious that Lysa turned on a dime and threw Art under the bus in order to protect her ministry and “family business”. Her daughters are dependent on the ministry for their own income (especially the oldest and youngest daughters) so it makes me wonder if Lysa is determined to salvage the business at the expense of ever reconciling with her husband.

    I know there are some who would say that this situation is private and we have no business speculating. However, I believe that when a person in the ‘ministry” rises to a celebrity status, complete with wealth and raving fans and world travel. and posts all of this on social media to encourage further fandom, it is the reader’s right to draw conclusions.

  81. ahlstar says:

    that there really was no God

    I find that atheists and christians are similar in that, while belonging to large groups, there are very few true members of either party.
    A true atheist tends to be rather calm and laid back because they have little reason to be so pissy. I have met in my life maybe one or two true atheists. Like christians, almost all atheists are nominals, and are merely just people that hate God.

    Jennifer seems to be a typical example of a nominal.

  82. @Sophia:

    “Professional” Christianity. But if they had that much of a social media presence, then it makes sense that Lysa has moved to protect her income source. Which is more important now than it was before, actually.

    Reality is also that a Man can be quite content with his family life while having a mistress. Men & Women being rather different in this regard. Though if it came out, it was going to destroy Lysa’s “ministry”, which means sort out the situation from the real details and the self-interest is pretty much impossible.

    Lysa is a “Professional Wife & Christian”, with everything negative that entails.

  83. A. Stewart says:

    I am sorry, but I find your article less than compelling. As a Bible teacher for women, she has an obligation to inform the public about the reasons for her divorce. I don’t know her personally, but I am sure she is deeply pained…this is a tragedy. Men and women abandon their marriages with total disregard for the carnage they leave behind. What is most stunning is your response to her situation…as a fellow believer I am surprised at the rapidity that you have thrown her “Under the bus.” Its so sad that you would blame the wounded.

  84. OKRickety says:

    Lost Patrol said: “Are there men that have positive experiences with marriage counseling?”

    As I recall it, the first 3 or so put all the blame on me. The last one wanted my ex to do some work, too. But she didn’t really, and we stopped the counseling. A year or so later was when she blindsided me with divorce. In short, it was not positive for me, and I don’t know personally of others where it was positive.

  85. @ Sophia

    Welcome. Appreciate the additional information.

  86. @ A. Stewart

    I am going to assume you’re not trolling and mean well.

    I am sorry, but I find your article less than compelling. As a Bible teacher for women, she has an obligation to inform the public about the reasons for her divorce. I don’t know her personally, but I am sure she is deeply pained…this is a tragedy. Men and women abandon their marriages with total disregard for the carnage they leave behind. What is most stunning is your response to her situation…as a fellow believer I am surprised at the rapidity that you have thrown her “Under the bus.” Its so sad that you would blame the wounded.

    Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

    Lysa’s press release about her marriage makes it seem like Art is 100% at fault for blowing up their marriage. However, based on the evidence from their marriage history, that seems not to be the case.

    As Christians, we care about the Truth and thus want her to come to repentance too rather than caring about her “career, money and fame from that her ministry” more than reconciliation.

    Compassion is not compassion if you only placate someone’s feelings without calling them to repentance and reconciliation.

    This is one of the major problems with people that call themselves Christians nowadays. They hold feelings over the Truth. The Scripture encourages admonishment and rebuke if someone is in sin. Yes, feelings can get hurt with admonishment and rebuke. That’s why it’s so difficult. But it’s the right thing to do.

  87. A. Stewart says:

    Dear Deep Strength,

    I am most certainly not trolling and my trust is not in feelings but in my Lord Jesus Christ. The article I read from Mrs. Terkuerst only addressed the Biblical reason for her divorce not a deep discussion about her marriage or any discord within in it that may have led Mr. Terkuerst to commit adultery .(Matthew 5:31-32). She just seemed to be stating why she was pursuing a divorce . You don’t know her heart and neither do I. I know God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16) but He does allow it(Matthew 19:7-9 1 Corinthians 7:15-17). I am not trying to disrespect you…just seems like you are making many suppositions about things you are not privy to. Our Holy God will hold both of them accountable for their disobedience. God is going to hold Art Terkuerst accountable for his choices not Lysa Terkuerst. That’s just like Adam trying to blame Eve for his disobedience. Respectfully, A Stewart

  88. Sophia says:

    Thanks for the welcome. When this story first broke everything online portrayed Lysa as being the victim and her husband as being the sleazy cheater. It was appreciated to see another view on this site.

    One other tidbit, just three months ago (again posted on social media) the youngest Terkeurst daughter was baptized in the Jordan (one of Lysa’s ministry trips). Her mom was with her but her dad did the actual baptism. So again, this is during the 18 months of supposed counseling time the family went through to deal with Art’s infidelity, yet Art is still godly enough to do the baptism. It just doesn’t match with the narrative now told publicly. I think it’s a shame that Lysa so publicly condemned her husband (who is still the father of her children) when the sordid details did not have to be revealed. And I do wonder how this will affect the oldest daughter’s husband as he was seeking to enter the Chick Fil A owner/operator line of work, obviously promoted by Art. With such details revealed I wonder if this will jeopardize his future for employment.

  89. @ A. Stewart

    The Scriptures do not allow for divorce. The exception clause “except for fornication” in Matthew 5 and Matthew 19 does not refer to adultery but to marital fraud (e.g. Deut 22, Joseph and Mary). There’s numerous lines of evidence which point to that, which are detailed in the link below.

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2016/09/15/on-divorce-part-4/

    Additionally, the Scripture clearly tells Christians to hold each other accountable such as Galatians 6 as I quoted above. Another is Matthew 18. It is God who judges, but we as Christians are to call each other out in love if one errs.

    Lysa COULD have disclosed very little to no details saying she was going through “personal matters.” However, that’s not what she did. She issued a public statement foisting the vast majority if not 100% of the blame onto Art. When contrasted against the troubling events in their past from her own mouth, it appears that this story is not exactly as she portrays it to be.

    Public statements are fair game as criticism, and hence our call to her to repent and reconcile.

  90. Novaseeker says:

    Interesting information from Sophia.

    One would wonder whether it would be better for the financial well being of her ministry to have found a way to reconcile her marriage as opposed to divorcing her husband, but if her ministry is primarily to women (which it appears to be), likely that isn’t the case.

    My guess from reading all of what now seems available about the entire thing is that the marriage had frayed due to lots of physical separation on an ongoing basis, the marriage began to fray, he drank to self-medicate and had an affair (perhaps more than one), and when it came time to put humpty-dumpty together again it was very hard to do that. Perhaps they both really resented each other and couldn’t get past that (she for his adultery and he for her absence). Perhaps it was realized that the absence, if it was an issue (and it seems very unlikely it wasn’t based on these facts), couldn’t be overcome without destroying her ministry, which wasn’t an acceptable path. These situations are not uncommon due to the way people are living today, unfortunately — lots of physical separation for extended periods by one or both spouses due to work obligations, resentment building, cheating happening — it’s a very common fact pattern, despite the distinctive element of the “work” being a ministry here. It’s sad, but these things happen.

    One truism in divorce, I have found, is that you only rarely get the full story from one of the spouses in the marriage, and often also not from the kids, either, who often pick one side or the other. You generally get a slanted view from one of the spouses which overlooks their own role in the breakdown of the marriage in ways that their (former) spouse would point out. Something to keep in mind.

  91. Stephanie says:

    So I’ve followed Lysa a little since about 2007 or 08 (??) somewhere around that time frame. It’s always disappointing to see high-profile types divorce or admit they need counseling to fix their problems, but it isn’t that surprising when a woman’s ministry takes over her entire life like it did for Lysa. They have an amazingly beautiful house and lots of money from her ministry, but in the time that I’ve watched her life unfold through social media for 10 years, her husband never seemed like he was her spiritual leader or advice giver or anything to show that she actually looked up to and respected him. I think that’s important to note 😦

    She kind of just represents the normal or typical Christian woman in leadership that you see now. Admitting they have “normal” marriage problems… admitting they have envy problems (I admire they can admit this, but it’s still reality that they have these problems they aren’t figuring out… and they’re nearing 50 years old!!! Like when are they going to ever figure them out?)….

    I know Lysa had serious weight problems (she wrote an entire book about finally overcoming her weight problem that she had probably the majority of their marriage… which for many women, having a weight problem usually contributes to them having less sex with their husbands. This causes all kinds of problems for the husband like temptation to porn or even real adultery.

    For adultery… it’s either Art has a serious character problem (which I honestly doubt, I personally think Lysa drove him to this and her multi-million dollar ministry drove him to this), or it’s that she wasn’t meeting all his needs and he slowly devolved into an emotional affair which sounds like it became sexual. 😦

    Really tragic.

  92. Michelle says:

    Sophia’s comments are interesting. I found the daughters’ social media awhile ago when I read Lysa’s most recent book, Uninvited. She had a whole chapter in there about social media and how much things like Instagram can provoke envy and feelings of rejection (being “uninvited”)…how we need to carefully consider why we’re posting what we’re posting (ask ourselves if we’re honestly representing our lives and being authentic, or are we actually just trying to show the pretty side of life to make others jealous). She also talked about strategies for overcoming our jealousy.

    Reading this made me curious about Lysa’s own social media, so I googled and ended up on the daughters’ Instagrams. They appeared to have VERY nice lives. Nothing wrong with this ,exactly, although I did find the constant luxury travel, the endless restaurants, and the many ultra-skinny bikini shots and other immodest clothing kind of off-putting for people who work in ministry. (The middle daughter is even a pastor’s wife and is also on staff at her husband’s family’s church.) I know “modesty” is a subjective topic that can be endlessly debated, and I don’t bring this up to judge these young women’s fashion choices, just that their social media struck me as kind of odd and ironic, considering they all work for their mom’s ministry and she’d just written this bestseller with a whole section about being mindful of what you put on Instagram.

    And it seems especially ironic now, given what was supposedly going on during the past year and a half. All of the Terkeurst ladies presented what we now know to be a fake image of their lives, designed to highlight only the pretty parts and make themselves look enviable. Lysa’s statement about the dad’s cheating and all the counseling everyone has been doing over the past 18 months simply contradicts everything else they all put out there about their lives. For someone whose whole ministry is about sharing vulnerable and “authentic” stories from her own life, Lysa is in a very awkward place now.

  93. @ Michelle

    For someone whose whole ministry is about sharing vulnerable and “authentic” stories from her own life, Lysa is in a very awkward place now.

    Doubtful than many other ‘Christian organizations’ will see it that way.

    I’d bet that most people would rather see their family’s idyllic life on Instagram the way it is portrayed than the actual horrors of an imploded marriage where both sides had major issues.

    It’s easier and nicer when the ‘evil unrepentant husband’ can be blamed for all of the ills of the marriage, and the wife can come away clean to continue her million dollar ministry.

  94. Sophia says:

    After the way he was smeared publicly, if I was Art I would insist on some type of divorce agreement that Lysa is not able to write about him in her future book (which obviously she will write ASAP). He has not responded to her allegations yet he is already condemned. This could jeopardize his own interests with the very Christian Chick Fil A organization.

  95. feeriker says:

    After the way he was smeared publicly, if I was Art I would insist on some type of divorce agreement that Lysa is not able to write about him in her future book (which obviously she will write ASAP). He has not responded to her allegations yet he is already condemned. This could jeopardize his own interests with the very Christian Chick Fil A organization.

    It could very well be that Art is laying low, saying nothing, and waiting fof the divorce case to make its way to court. For all we know he could have some “dirt” on Lysa that, if exposed, could make the divorce even more painful and destructive for her and her business, er, “ministry” than it is already going to be. Art might have already retained a very good divorce lawyer whose first piece of advice was “keep your mouth shut and let HER do all the minelaying with her mouth and pen that will turn into boobytraps that will be her own end.”

    Weep not for this woman. All evidence points to her being a rebellious, selfish, money-grubbing huckster(ette) whose sole interest in Christianity is the opportunity it provides in the all-too-large population of gullible, itchy-eared rubes and rubettes who are among its followers. Her sex doesn’t matter either; if the roles were reversed and Art was the famous “minister,” I would be saying the same thing about him.

  96. Sophia says:

    I find it interesting that really this post here is the only thing I have read about this divorce situation that doesn’t completely elevate Lysa and bash her husband. Everyone seems to believe it’s wrong to expect her to step down from ministry. No one seems to be objective and realize that it’s much more complicated than Lysa being the blameless victim. Seems many women especially want to project their own divorce experiences with this story.

  97. @ Sophia

    I don’t.

    Today’s “Christians” as much as non-Christians like to man-bash and paint all women in an “angelic” can-do-no-wrong light.

    One might even say it’s just another form of goddess worship.

    Re: https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/victims-versus-perpetrators-why-it-all-matters/

  98. Novaseeker says:

    No one seems to be objective and realize that it’s much more complicated than Lysa being the blameless victim. Seems many women especially want to project their own divorce experiences with this story.

    @Sophia —

    I think a part of it is that people in general project their own experiences into divorces and tend to want to pick sides, generally the side of the person they find more sympathetic, even if the reasons for that are unrelated the divorce. In reality the unraveling of a marriage is always complicated, and generally almost always more complicated than one of the formerly spouses will generally tell you in their own narrative of the divorce.

    I think, though, that another part of this is that among American Christians, particularly many American Protestants (not all — notably DS does not subscribe to this theory), if one spouse commits “adultery”, the other spouse has complete optionality to continue with the marriage, and may always terminate the marriage at his (typically her) option, apparently with more or less full support from the church. It almost seems like for those who think like this, which appears to be many, that a spouse who commits adultery gives you a “get out of jail free” card, no questions asked. I suspect that this is the source of much of the support for what Lysa has said here, since she has dropped the adultery card, which gives her this full optionality, and therefore broad support for divorcing her husband regardless of the remainder of the circumstances that led to the marital breakdown.

  99. Stephanie Little says:

    I agree her public statement felt like little more than a thinly veiled attempt to maintain her status, credibility and public approval as a leader in the Christian community, one that has brought with it a lot of fame, prestige, glamour and wealth.

  100. Kris Gray says:

    I hope none of you ladies have a public tragedy in your lives left open for to vile judgement and hateful words.

  101. Sophia says:

    @Kris

    Lysa made her “ministry” into a very successful business through her public sharing of her (mostly image-conscious) life via books and blog and social media posts. She is the one who made it all public. The only “tragedy” is that she is determined to maintain her role as advice-giver to thousands of gullible women and that no one is holding her accountable.

  102. mommy2mummy says:

    Where is the compassion?

  103. feeriker says:

    Where is the compassion?

    For whom?

  104. Robyn says:

    I do have compassion for the both of them. For Art’s lack of ability to take his wife in hand and lead her by removing this spot that she has on herself. And for Lysa’s lack of ability to be a true sister in the Lord to her husband. Having compassion for what people are experiencing has nothing to do with being accountable for your actions.

    She’s set herself up in the public eye as a teacher of women, therefore, according the Scriptures she believes in and teaches from, God says in James, Not many [of you] should become teachers (self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation].

    She’s not been married long enough and isn’t old enough to be teaching what she’s obviously not lived through. It’s good for young wives and new believers to see this; now they know what a wolf in sheep’s dressing looks like.

  105. Lucie Winborne says:

    I don’t follow Ms. Terkeurst on a regular basis, but am astonished at the judgment displayed in the comments on this post that can only be attributed to sheer conjecture and personal axes to grind. For example:

    “Just venturing a guess here, but … if you have the travel/speaking schedule that she does, I am guessing she was away from her H most of the time.”

    “My guess from reading all of what now seems available about the entire thing is that the marriage had frayed due to lots of physical separation on an ongoing basis….”

    “I can see why the guy started to mess around on his wife, looking at her speaking schedule you can tell that there was no time for her to take care of her husbands needs (sex or otherwise). My guess is the marriage ended long ago. Also remember when women start to see you as ‘inferior’ to them the contempt for you starts to be displayed in all sorts of ways, and I’m sure she viewed herself as both the spiritual and economic superior. As far as the substance abuse I’m sure she is referring to alcohol as my ex did the same thing to try and make it sound as bad as possible, and this was only one drink every once in a great while.”

    “But I find it a lot easier to believe that she remained a bag of nuts and drove her husband (and father of their five children) to drink and into the arms of another woman.”

    Guess, guess, guess. I’m sure, I’m sure, I’m sure. Believe, believe, believe.

    You can do that all you want.

    But the fact remains that guesses and personal beliefs are not the same as fact. No, you are NOT sure. Is there a single one among you who knows the couple personally? Were any of you a fly on the wall in their bedroom, where you repeatedly “guess” that Lysa didn’t fulfill her marital duties to the proper extent? Were you in the couple’s kitchen personally witnessing how Lysa turned her husband into a “kitchen bitch”?

    I’m “guessing” not.

    And then there are the responses of this ilk:

    “Marrying a career girl is like having a needy, dysfunctional roommate instead of a wife.”

    This commenter obviously has been burned very badly, but that does not make his blanket generalization any truer than most blanket generalizations are. Thousands if not millions of men could testify otherwise. I can only hope he finds healing.

    Whatever happened within the Terkeurst marriage, NONE of us commenting from the safety and privacy of our homes and computer screens was there with them. Consider the witness your suppositions are displaying, and not just to other believers. How much better a use of time and energy simply to pray for the revelation of truth in this situation, if God wills it, and for healing, restoration, and, yes, correction where needed. We’re all in need of those things at various times, no matter our platform.

  106. honordads says:

    Yeh, good post. I was thinking along these same lines. Wouldn’t mind sharing a beer with her soon to be ex to get his side of the story.

  107. Casey says:

    Yikes! Judging others is not what Christ wants us to do! I feel so bad for this lady. I had an ex who was a non Christian who would not stop cheating! It was the most horrible time in my life up until recently when my new saved husband and I lost twin babies born prematurely. That being said the latter experience has humbled me and taught me not to be a judgmental Christian. The world is watching christians and they are not popular because of this kind of judgements attitude.

  108. @ Casey

    Yikes, it sounds like you don’t actually know the Bible.

    The Scriptures are not about being “non-judgmental.” Even Matthew 7 speaks not about being non-judgmental but that the same measure that you use would be used on you.

    Read 1 Timothy 3.

    Those in leadership positions in the Church are subject to stringent criteria to hold those positions. Lysa does not meet some of the criteria. Nor is she a man, to which other verses speak to that (e.g. 1 Tim 2).

    Such criticism is justified.

  109. @ Lucie

    Let’s go by what the Scriptures actually say.

    Read 1 Timothy 3. Those in leadership positions in the Church are subject to stringent criteria to hold those positions. Lysa does not meet some of the criteria (e.g she has not managed her household well). Nor is she a man, to which other verses speak to that (e.g. 1 Tim 2).

    Her putting her ministry ABOVE reconciliation with her husband is blatant hypocrisy. Especially because her so-called ministry is about being a Proverbs 31 wife.

    We don’t even need to know what is behind closed doors to know that she shouldn’t be continuing her ministry. However, given their history, it’s likely that what is behind closed doors doesn’t bode well for the both of them anyway.

  110. Bee says:

    mummy2mummy,

    “Where is the compassion?”

    Compassion should not be our first response as Christians. Jesus said to, “Judge with righteous judgement. (John 7)” This takes discernment and interviewing all involved parties. Jesus also told the women at the well to, “go and sin no more.” St. Paul had people removed/shunned from church fellowship.

  111. thedeti says:

    For sure, there’s a lot of conclusion-drawing about what happened with the Terkeurst marriage. But those conclusions are based on information gleaned from what we know of male and female nature, as well as what Lysa Terkeurst herself publicly disclosed and publicly available information, about the Terkeursts. And for the most part, those conclusions, when drawn about others in the same or similar situations, usually turns out to be correct.

  112. Marie says:

    I’ve been told Ms. Terkeurst has hired a private investigator to follow Art around for at least the last month or so, and he is still being followed even today. I truly don’t believe she made the decision to put out her statement publicly lambasting her husband because the Lord helped her come to the conclusion that she’s “done all she can do.” My guess is it’s the result of him doing something (or getting caught doing something) that angered her. She claims her intent was never to harm or embarrass him, but that is exactly what she has done. Why she is still having him followed after publicly announcing that she has decided to pursue divorce (and her children have confirmed her version of the story and obviously chosen to side with their mother) is anyone’s guess. I was also informed she kicked him out of the marital home as soon as she found out about his infidelity and has refused to allow him back. She is most certainly not the definition of a Proverbs 31 wife; she merely clings to the identity because it’s garnered her the fame and fortune she has become accustomed to. Take a look at her daughters’ IG accounts: they clearly live a lavish life most of us could only ever dream of, and I speculate that without her ministry, her daughters would have no way to support themselves. She put her “ministry” above her husband years ago, and we are witnessing the fallout. I would love to hear his side of the story–though I truly don’t believe we’ll ever get it.

  113. Shanelle says:

    Wow, the tone of this article and some of the comments on here are very grievous. It is one thing to point out something you believe to be wrong and if you believe it is indeed sin, to deeply be grieved over it and wish to expose somethings to teach or benefit others. But all in a loving way. It is another thing to comment on something in a self righteous and cynical way. This is a stain on Christianity and resembles a pharisaical approach to things you view as sin. Where is the grief or heartbroken state over it? In fact I saw one comment that said something about the person not being surprised if Lysa is married in 5 years. Others including the the author wonder if she refused her husband sex or if her busy speaking schedule is to blame. These could be factors but are not excuses for committing adultery. If you truly do not believe in divorce then you believe in the wedding vows of to death do us part. That means sexual faithfulness till death no matter the circumstances. I am heartbroken over the cold responses. I don’t know who here claims to be believers but I genuinely don’t understand how a person who has had the love of God shed abroad in their hearts could respond in this way. Grieved…

  114. Lost Patrol says:

    And for the most part, those conclusions, when drawn about others in the same or similar situations, usually turns out to be correct.

    Where there’s smoke there’s fire. It may not always be true, but people tend to go with it based on the millions of times it’s been true.

  115. Bee says:

    @Shanelle,

    “These could be factors but are not excuses for committing adultery.”

    Who committed adultery? Until we hear Art’s side of the story you don’t know the whole truth.

  116. Sophia says:

    Lysa’s divorce is significant and should be discussed because she is a teacher and leader to thousands of Christian women. It is not lacking compassion to hold her to the stringent requirements the bible has for such teachers. Just because thousands of women are projecting their own pain of divorce onto her situation does not change that.

    She and her daughters have blasted every detail of their lives all over social media which is another reason why speculation is also not “lacking compassion”. A lot of what was posted about her husband Art just in the last months when supposedly she was “doing all she could” to save the marriage does not compute with the narrative now. Why didn’t she just stay private instead of trying to maintain a perfect image? Her daughters IG accounts are interesting. One daughter immediately said “I STILL have the BEST family ever!” after which she went back to posting more shots of their lavish lifestyles. Their public presence just feels very disingenuous, as if they are desperately trying to do damage control and save the family business.

  117. Susan says:

    None of us really know what happens in a marriage, but if a spouse continues in adultry and substance abuse He is not trying to reconcile the marriage. Also, exposing his family to dangerous things. It is not for us to judge what’s right or wrong or interpret what a woman or man should do in this kind of situation according to the Bible. It’s God’s. Some spouses do not want to be won over. They have chosen their path whether Biblical or not.

  118. Susan says:

    I’m reading some of these comments about it being the wife’s fault because she had a career and was gone a lot. When men have careers and are away a lot with their jobs I do not see people saying adultry was okay for the woman since her husband wasn’t there. I’m sad about all the judgement and hate. We are to love one another and bear each other’s burdens according to the Bible. Adultry is in the Ten Commandments.

  119. @Susan:

    You’re repeating what we’d call “Churchian Wisdom” that sounds close enough to actual Theology that it’s hard to notice, all in service to covering for “Team Woman”. Note: this isn’t about you & your Sin. If you have issues with fidelity, take it up with the Lord.

    As to the Marriage, it was dead before it start. Lysa made her intentions to her Husband clear when she murdered his child years ago. It’s been a charade ever since and no power on Earth was capable of fixing that.

  120. Bee says:

    @Susan,

    “It is not for us to judge what’s right or wrong or interpret what a woman or man should do in this kind of situation according to the Bible.”

    Jesus disagrees with you, Jesus said that his followers should judge with righteous judgement. John 7:24

  121. Robyn says:

    @ Susan

    Your query is sound, just misapplied.

    Lysa has set herself up as a teacher of women but has revealed herself as either a wolf (at worst) or (at the very least), a wife who has no business whatsoever teaching other wives due to her lack of maturity.

    It is wise that her actions are critiqued … not her personhood. Fruit is what is being judged here. Your misapplication means you’re scrutinizing every person that has commented, as ‘judging’ her. Most of us, I believe, who read here aren’t about separating the “goats and sheep” but rather, growing up in the Lord.

    God guides us to observe fruit in Matt 7:15-20. About the abundance of what is truly in a person’s heart … comes out of their mouth and through their actions in Matt 15:18-19.

    And then there’s Paul’s warning of immature small minded women (not my words but HIS) in 2 Tim 3:6 … it’s warning to women to beware of who and what teaching you listen to.

  122. Nicole B. says:

    I suggest that the writer and the commenters of this article remember one thing.. you don’t know the whole story, nor do you really have any place judging a matter like this. It’s always interesting how small minded people have so much to say and “speak for God”. “He who is without sin cast the first stone “. I’ll never understand gossip like this all in the name of “the right thing” you must all have something better to do.. perhaps work on your OWN life and marriages.

  123. thedeti says:

    Nicole:

    No, I don’t know the whole story. I don’t need to know the entire story. I don’t need every single piece of the puzzle. I can still put together the many pieces I do have and see the bigger picture, even if some pieces are missing.

    Yes, I can judge a matter like this, particularly when it concerns a woman in a Christian “ministry” (who really does purport to speak for God). I’m judging with righteous judgment.

  124. Shelly S says:

    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Things of this world at times will confound us. This is when we should, with all sincerity, take it to God and let Him help us through it. In the end, we may not have any answers, but we will have the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control,

  125. Wendy Hicks says:

    After reading this article by WordPress, I can promise to never read another article published by you. This article is not biblically sound and shows no Christ like compassion for Lysa.

  126. Robyn says:

    I’ve been watching the comments here and have been doing a little test. I can isolate the commenter to male or female simply by reading their response. For instance, I read this latest comment and knew immediately it was female before I even scrolled up to see the name. (just a funny observation)

  127. @ Robyn

    I’m more amused to be honest.

    God forbid you hold Christians to Biblical accountability.

    Biblical accountability is instead mean, judgmental, and no compassion.

  128. Wendy Hicks says:

    @Robyn. Sad that you think that is a “funny observation”. That is yet another
    response from you that seems to be insensitive, judgmental and sexist.

  129. Wendy Hicks says:

    @Deepstrength. To be amused is so disrespectful.

  130. Robyn says:

    @ Deepstrength: “God forbid you hold Christians to Biblical accountability. Biblical accountability is instead mean, judgmental, and no compassion” I believe with feminists, it’s only males are held accountable to that standard.

    However, when these observations are directed at a female (as in this example with LT), well, then it IS lacking compassion.

    Wendy continuing to read and comment after she explicitly said she wouldn’t is a perfect example of the feminist double-mindedness.

    @Wendy: You say sexist. I say the reality of the difference between men and women. I love that God created men and women different.

  131. @ Wendy Hicks

    Disrespectful is coming onto this blog and posting about ‘promising to never read another post again’ without any evidence of your claims.

    As I outlined in the OP, the Bible contradicts Lysa’s ‘divorce’ and continuance in ministry. I quoted numerous Scriptures which show this is the case.

    If you would like to have a discussion about if you believe this to be false, you can start by quoting some Scripture and presenting a rational argument.

    Otherwise, the only ‘disrespectful’ person here is you.

  132. Wendy Hicks says:

    I stated I would not read another article by this author. I did not state that I would not reply to a comment left for me. At this juncture, I will now choose not to respond back because it seems that you desire to have the last word. I am saddened by your lack of empathy, compassion and respect for fellow Christians, regardless of gender.

  133. Robyn says:

    Whether you call it “an article” or “a comment” it is still knowledge from the same mind/writer. Your intended insult cannot now be back-peddled to whittle away through vocabulary.

    You said what you meant, then needed, like most women … (as I’m proving now LOL) to satisfy that insatiable thirst for, *that last word*.

  134. Ramona says:

    There is Never the spouse’s fault for the other’s betrail/adultery. No one person can be responsible for someone else’s sin. A person’s sin has to do with themselves alone, their relationship with God or lack thereof. They have the Lord to give an account to. The scriptures clearly state that there is no temptation too great that we can not withstand by His grace. Even if Lysa had been too busy, or withheld sex, like you’re speculating (without any proof), none of her behavior should be to blame for his sin. We are each responsible for our own sin. I urge you to think twice before placing possible blame on brothers and sisters you know not much about. I understand that you’re entitled to your opinion but tarnishing another sister/brother’s name ought not be encouraged in Christian communities.

  135. @Ramona:

    She murdered one of his children. They never had much of a marriage. The end result is expected because humans are human. His sin is his; her sin is hers.

    You also assume much to call her a Christian.

  136. Robyn says:

    @Ramona:
    “…like you’re speculating (without any proof), none of her behavior should be to blame for his sin. ”

    and

    “We are each responsible for our own sin.”

    The responsibility is equal and judged separately. 1 Cor 8:9:13 – she used her freedom in Christ to cause her husband to stumble. She’s accountable for her hard-heartedness and he’s accountable for his; however, she bears the greater responsibility: “Woe to the world for such temptations to sin and influences to do wrong! It is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the person on whose account or by whom the temptation comes!” ~Matt 18:7. She is responsible for him, the temptation came through her … she ALLOWED satan to use her. He responded with choice; he’s responsible for his choice.

  137. Novaseeker says:

    I don’t think anyone suggested that Lysa was responsible for any adultery that her husband may have engaged in (if indeed he did that — we don’t “know” that, either). However, Lysa would be responsible if she engaged in behavior that led her husband to be tempted to sin — not responsible for any sin he committed (that’s his responsibility), but responsible for anything she did or failed to do which may have led him to be tempted to sin. This is what Robyn is saying, and it’s what several of us have been saying, about this. Obviously this seems to be quite unpopular, particularly with drive-by (seemingly all female) commenters.

  138. Amanda says:

    Perhaps her “clarifying details are unclear” because it is not our business or place to know all of the details. We weren’t there day in and day out because it is their marriage and their private life and not ours. It is not our place to attempt to condemn any of her actions or his. However, if he had noble actions he needed to defend, he’s had every opportunity. Perhaps he there’s nothing to defend. Divorce is a terrible solution and we are to live our spouse through everything. However, when a spouse decides they are no longer committed, they have already spiritually divorced themselves from the marriage. We can only assume that is the case in this matter but again it is not for us to conclude or condemn. It is only for us to pray for them.

  139. Robyn says:

    “… it is not our business or place to know all of the details. We weren’t there day in and day out because it is their marriage and their private life and not ours. ”

    @ Amanda: Yes, it is my business to critique those whom I would follow to learn from; and the business of every other thinking wife who seeks to be the best wife she can be.

    When a wife has a ministry touting themselves as a “Proverbs 31 Wife” she is, in essence saying, “I’m the quintessential Proverbs 31 Wife; follow me.” There’s nothing wrong with doing this; Paul told us to scrutinize HIS behaviour and then to follow him (1 Cor 11:1): Pattern yourselves after me [follow my example], AS I IMITATE and follow Christ (the Messiah). —> “AS I IMITATE”

    A teacher purposely puts their life on display for IMITATION that’s why they’ll be judged with a higher standard. This negates any matters of secrecy from the public eye.

    If I’m going to imitate a parenting style from a mother that’s doling out parental advice, I’m going to want to know her track record: what her own children have turned out like. Seriously, who’d take parenting advice from the mother of Paul Bernardo? That’s not judging Paul Bernardo’s mother, it’s loving the Lord with your WHOLE mind and thinking critically. Would you want your husband taking husband advice from King David? NO, because he might be a great warrior, a wonderful poet and musician, and even a man after God’s own heart … but he doesn’t know the first thing about being the husband of one wife. That’s not judging David (whom btw, I think rocks), it’s just the facts.

    Lysa T is not a godly woman, she left her man on the battlefield of this world, alone. The WORST place for a man. She chose herself over him. She’s a poor example of wife and she’s deluded herself into thinking that she’s a model for wives to follow.

  140. Pingback: Hillary Clinton wants to get involved in the ministry | Christianity and masculinity

  141. Sophia says:

    There are two parts to this whole story. One, there is a couple who is getting divorced due to infidelity. That is always tragic and compassion and grace should be extended. No one can know what really went on in their marriage.

    But the other part is that Lysa is in women’s ministry. She has set herself up to be the “Proverbs 31” teacher/mentor/guru to thousands of other women. God holds her to a higher standard of responsibility. What I see here in the comments are women defending her right to continue in ministry when they really should only be defending her right to a biblical divorce. No matter what happened to result in divorce Lysa now is unfit for ministry. Period. That is according to scripture and not opinion. But if you choose to delve deeper into the hundreds of personal stories (and lavish social media accounts) of her life, you can even see how her escalating popularity and the addiction to the resulting wealth and fame played a role in her marriage breaking down. People are letting their emotions with the identification of the pain of divorce cloud their judgment with Lysa’s qualifications for ministiry.

  142. Stephanie says:

    “…. you can even see how her escalating popularity and the addiction to the resulting wealth and fame played a role in her marriage breaking down”

    That’s what surprised me when I saw some of her videos by chance on facebook – the sheer wealth and millionaire lifestyle. It’s a sign of “new money” people who become wealthy through relatively new fame. Whereas “old money” families don’t live like that.

    It’s sad that these women’s husbands are at least portrayed as on the back burner as they go to speaking engagement after speaking engagement and carrying their ministries basically like full-blown careers. It’s no secret that the wives are the spiritual leader of the family and the husband is left at home and living an almost separate life.

    If we know that feminist career women tend to neglect their families, what does that say about women who are always creating (and recording for audio and filming for video) another Bible study – for 20 years+ with no breaks?

    It seems like their ministry to women is **above** their *true* ministry – which should be to their husbands and children as per Proverbs 31. Keeping her marriage going exceptionally well, raising godly children, IS a Christian wife’s “ministry.” If she fails at these things, but succeeds in an outward ministry like many Christian women have (that should be a much lower priority), then she’s failed at her real mission in life once she became a wife and mother.

  143. Stephanie says:

    Just more random observation…

    I used to go to Beth Moore Bible studies because our church offered them as part of their ministry to women. One time during one of her videos (you have to watch her Bible studies all on video), she started talking about her husband and it turned me off completely. It sounded like HE was her “helpmeet” and support for her ministry – which her entire family had to rearrange their life around to accommodate. It sounded like a beta husband that just went along and did what was needed to make his wife happy and I literally had a “disgust” reaction to it. 😦 It didn’t sound **at all** like he was the leader of his family.

    😦

  144. Robyn says:

    @Stephanie:

    “It sounded like HE was her “helpmeet” and support for her ministry – which her entire family had to rearrange their life around to accommodate.”

    … just EWWW. It is disgust.

  145. Stephanie says:

    Robyn, I’m not proud of having that reaction 😦 I actually feel guilty for feeling that immediately and felt sorry for her husband, and not really disgust towards him, but more towards their marriage operating that way because it’s unnatural, and the casual way she portrayed him as so weak like that to millions of viewers. It also felt like a disappointment… finding out someone who’s supposed to be in leadership and giving you guidance doesn’t even give her husband the respect or role of leadership that he deserves.

    Lesson for wives: If you portray your husband as “less than,” people will believe you, and certainly start to view him themselves as “less than.” You, as his wife, are entrusted with so much – you have so much power to do your husband harm, or to do him good, because you live with him and know him probably better than anyone else. Don’t put him down in public or reveal his personal information that should be kept private (ie: he’s in counseling, having issues with something, or anything remotely negative). It’s just not guarding his privacy and reputation and is kind of the epitome of disrespect. :/

  146. Robyn says:

    @Stephanie: The “ewww” – is a healed from the virus of feminism (or unspoiled) healthy female response to emasculation; I don’t feel ashamed, embarrassed or guilty; being drawn to healthy masculinity is how I was created as a female. It is only natural and normal that feminine females would be repelled by the opposite. I don’t see it as a ‘feeling-sorry-for’ situation.

  147. Stephanie says:

    “being drawn to healthy masculinity is how I was created as a female”

    Definitely agree with you.

    But I do feel sorry for men, especially Christian men, who grew up basically being trained to be emasculated. I have one post on my blog that talks about mothers emasculating their sons… it has been the most popular post on my blog for almost 4 years now. Almost every week someone comes there from the search engines seeking info about that topic 😦

    So there are A LOT of men out there who are “ewww” that their parents or Church, or people who were supposed to care about them, failed them in that regard. They were never taught how to be masculine or a leader or that Christian women they’d end up marrying would be unsubmissive and controlling harpies. 😦

  148. Robyn says:

    @Stephanie

    I hear your heart, but those are female feelings that are better direct at females. Feeling sorry for a male is no different than pity; no man needs to be pitied … it adds insult to injury. Men are stronger than women, they are the protectors and leaders, some woundedness by a messed up world doesn’t change their original endowment of authority and power. Nor the expectation God has placed on them.

    Circle time talk of feelings and being validated about emotional weakness and brokenness is what women do. Men are do-ers; their statement isn’t, ‘look how broken and weak I am’ … but rather, ‘look how strong I am; I can do this.’ Sisters in Christ (and wives) need to feed the latter.

  149. Stephanie says:

    You’re right on women needing to feed the latter if they’re in a relationship with a man or know him as a relative. We should inspire them with encouragement, and build them up for sure! Sorry for over-explaining my thoughts on it, I just don’t think disgust is good or kind longterm, or to let that attitude of superiority manifest in a woman’s heart toward beta males. It’s pride and it’s not good.

    To me, compassion, empathy, and kindness are good things for a woman to feel for others, even if they are male and don’t need pity from women. I definitely show my husband compassion, empathy and kindness when he needs them… it’s different from outright “pity,” it’s caring about the soul of a person. Hope that helps clear it up, sorry i’m confusing!

  150. Stephanie says:

    Robyn, I wrote a post actually on this a few years ago. It’s great when you’re so sleep deprived that you actually forget what you wrote lol…

    https://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/04/13/men-need-sympathetic-understanding-from-a-woman/

  151. earl says:

    Lesson for wives: If you portray your husband as “less than,” people will believe you, and certainly start to view him themselves as “less than.”

    Welcome to the feminist sewage pool women have been swimming in for decades. Puff up their egos to goddess levels and view men as ‘less than’.

  152. earl says:

    My ex-wife admitted to me once, during the period when we were unraveling, that she didn’t need a husband, but rather a wife (she didn’t mean it in the lesbian sense). Of course she wouldn’t have been happy with a male wife, either — it’s just another example of how confused careerists often are in terms of what they think they want vs what they need. In reality, women who are that focused on their careers really should be single — they won’t be able to be helpmeets to a traditional man, and they also won’t be happy having a male wife as a husband.

    I think it’s been stated before…a lot of women want to be married, but they don’t want to be wives.

  153. earl says:

    Lysa T is not a godly woman, she left her man on the battlefield of this world, alone. The WORST place for a man. She chose herself over him. She’s a poor example of wife and she’s deluded herself into thinking that she’s a model for wives to follow.

    True…this society is openly promoting the opposite, so there’s plenty of delusional women who will believe this nonsense. Feminism is all about choosing herself over anybody. It all goes back to the serpent whispering in Eve’s ear.

  154. Donna Specht says:

    Whwn i read this article title, i had a sinking feeling about the tone that would follow. This article makes numerous assumptions and judgments. Anythng is possible whenever we are not privy to the details….what is the purpose of speculating and assuming the worst of another? As I read Lisa’s blog post, my heart broke for her and for her husband and family. I do not interpret Lisa’s statement as “throwing Art under the bus.” That is a complete ASSUMPTION. The tone of this article is legalistic. It does not give the benefit of the doubt. There is so much we just don’t know about Lysa and Art.

    I have been blessed to do several of Lisa’s studies, each time coming away with so much in my spiritual growth. I find her studies and books to be biblical and grounded in heart issues, the core of what Jesus was most concerned with.

    I will be keeping Lisa, Art.and their family in my prayers. I also pray that this author would have a change of heart in his view towards those who are undergoing a heartrending time in their lives. Focusing on praying for others seems like the most important thing to do in any of these difficult times.

    We are to strive for being full of grace and truth. John 1:14

    I Corinthians 13….so pertinent here. If we have not love, none of our words mean a thing.

  155. Robyn says:

    @Donna Specht,

    “We are to strive for being full of grace and truth. John 1:14”

    Wives are “to strive for” serving their husbands. Wives are “to strive for” adaptation into their husband’s lives. Wives are “to strive for” surrendering to their husbands. Wives are “to strive for” forgiveness.

    We all are “to strive for” putting others ahead of ourselves. We all are “to strive for” giving instead of receiving.

    A cursory view at LTs life proves she’s not been walking her own talk; as a sister in Christ nor as a wife. The life she has put on display through social media was her own doing. By seeking divorce she proves to the world that she’s a hard-hearted woman (Matt 19:7-8).

  156. Penny petersen says:

    No one has a place to judge in this situation. No one should even speculate. This is between Lysa and Art. How terrible that at a time of excruciating pain we heap insult on our dear sister in Christ. Christ would never do that. Pray for her– that is all we should do. Shame on you– holier than thou pharisitical people who look more like the accuser of the brethren than our merciful savior.

  157. This is going to be one of those posts that’ll collect random responses for years.

  158. @ LG

    The post that keeps on giving apparently. I suppose I should make a “final response.”

    These random ‘Christian’ responses are clearly from people who haven’t read and/or understood the Scriptures.

    Christians are called to judge other Christians according to the standards of the Scripture, and call them back on the right path.

    At the very least, given the divorce Lysa should definitely NOT be continuing ministry according to the qualifications given in 1 Tim 3. Throwing away reconciliation to her husband to continue ministry is the exact opposite of what she should have done.

  159. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘ Christ would never do that. ‘

    Plenty of times He did. When someone was going down the wrong path He called them out. Some repented, some didn’t.

    Woman at the well, woe to the Pharisees, Judas, Peter…those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

    I don’t know why the judgements have got you all emotional. We all have to face it someday.

  160. thedeti says:

    “The post that keeps on giving apparently. I suppose I should make a “final response.””

    And then close comments.

    Because if you don’t, you’ll be dealing with people who don’t understand Scripture, and variations on the following things:

    “Don’t judge! We’re not supposed to judge! Judge not, lest ye be judged!”

    “we’re supposed to come alongside, not judge.”

    “Phaaaarrrriisssseeeees!!”

    “You should be praying for them, not judging them.”

    Everyone wants to call everything a “special case”, no one wants to be conformed to the requirements of Scripture and to our callings. No one wants to take up their crosses.

  161. @ thedeti

    Nah, I’ll leave up comments so we know who reads and understands the Scripture and who doesn’t.

  162. @DS:

    Much like Dalrock’s “Are Women done with Men after age 55?”, I imagine this’ll generate some laughs for a while. (That thread has been producing several laughs a year for, what, half a decade now?) Probably because it can come up in a search on the topic.

  163. Kay Eaton says:

    The minute you mentioned something to the effect of did she deny sex with him when he wanted the rest of the article was just “blah, blah, blah”. Wives are not sex slaves. Wives are to be cherished and adored. Wives should be set upon a proverbial throne as Christ is. I say this because the husband is commanded to love his wife as he loves Christ. You are a sad individual who wants to appear to be a super Christian. Don’t fool me at all Mr./Miss judgmental “holier than thou”.

  164. @ Kay Eaton

    The minute you mentioned something to the effect of did she deny sex with him when he wanted the rest of the article was just “blah, blah, blah”. Wives are not sex slaves. Wives are to be cherished and adored. Wives should be set upon a proverbial throne as Christ is. I say this because the husband is commanded to love his wife as he loves Christ. You are a sad individual who wants to appear to be a super Christian. Don’t fool me at all Mr./Miss judgmental “holier than thou”.

    So you’re admitting that you’re opposing the Scriptures on what God has told married husbands and wives? Gotcha.

    1 Corinthians 7:3 The husband must [a]fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and [b]come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

    Good luck with your false theology. I’m gonna go with what God said over what you said.

  165. While I know a lot of this stuff is natural, given the way Women work, but I’m still wondering if, at least in the generation Christian sections of the Internet, that we don’t get more Paid Shills to cause trouble than we realize. I’m so used to intentional shills in other places, that the approach is almost always the same.

    Considering a Christian discussion space will generally be more agreeable than normal, standard infiltration approaches work better. Though I do understand there’s a class of Women who do it for free & attention, so it can get messy. More just a thought I had.

  166. Robyn says:

    @ Looking Glass:

    ” ….there’s a class of Women who do it for free & attention, so it can get messy. ”

    Like a shit test on crack? Yes, neurotic drama queens. Not all that calls themselves Christians are real believers.

  167. Novaseeker says:

    I’m guessing they are not paid shills, but simply he garden variety Christians who are woefully ignorant of the teachings of the Church, never mind what is written in the plain text of the bible. Spouses are not to deprive each other of sex. To do so, outside the parameters mentioned by Paul, is a major sin. For the most part, women have lower, and more reactive, libidos (exceptions aside), and so many ill-informed Christian women either ignore or are ignorant of these verses. But they are there, and they have meaning.

  168. Lost Patrol says:

    Wives are to be cherished and adored. Wives should be set upon a proverbial throne as Christ is.

    I don’t know if she’s paid, but she’s definitely been to church lately.

  169. earl says:

    I say this because the husband is commanded to love his wife as he loves Christ.

    At least she stated she’s the one saying this…because that’s not what Scripture says.

  170. @Robyn:

    The really consistent ones most definitely. And I don’t think we’ve gotten any in this thread, as these seem like the standard neurotic types. It was more of a generalized thought as so much of “online discussion” is now highly influenced by paid shills.

    You can practically summon them, in the political realm, with the right keywords. But it’s also a sign that a lot of the Shills operate in the same mode as neurotic Women.

    @Novaseeker:

    Since we’re pushing into a different realm with regards to this stuff, I’ve realized that “Churchian”, while accurate is something of an “inside baseball” term. They’re just Fake Christians. We’ve long left the realm of “uninformed”.

  171. thedeti says:

    I’ve learned over the past several years that if there is anyone who does NOT deserve to be on a pedestal, it’s women (especially modern women, especially Christian women). And if there’s anyplace women should NOT be, it is the pedestal.

  172. Robyn says:

    @ thedeti, What defines being placed on a pedestal? I’ve been working on a devotional since Oct 2016 that is framed around the Proverbs 31 wife. The reason I’m asking is because the area that I’m studying for October is verse 28/29, which, as you know is about a compliment paid to a wife from her husband.

    Also, is it possible that women climb up there themselves (on the pedestal) and are blind to the fact that no one else see them ‘up there’?

  173. @ Robyn

    A man places a woman on a pedestal. There’s not really anything a woman can do to place herself on it.

    It’s up to the man to stop idolizing and/or following her and start leading himself.

    Of course, wives can always come underneath by deferring to his opinions, but it’s usually an issue with the man in question.

  174. John says:

    White washed sepulchres dominate here. The amount of hate spewing from you is terrible! Tell us all of the difficult struggles and sins you’ve been apart of so we can dissect you and say what horrible people you are, speculating, asduming, and binding you with the shackles of legalism, all in the name of God. Jesus would call you vipers: ” “Woe to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth (tithe) of your mint and dill and cumin [focusing on minor matters], and have neglected the weightier [more important moral and spiritual] provisions of the Law: JUSTICE and MERCY and FAITHFULNESS; but these are the [primary] things you ought to have done without neglecting the others.”
    I do not agree with modern feminism in any sense of the word, and despise man-bashing, but for most of these commenters, it is obvious they are woman-haters (whether they themselves are male our female). Be reminded: Jesus appeared first to a WOMAN afterHis resurrection, Priscilla was a teacher of Paul, Debra was a judge over all of Israel, and Phoebe was a deaconess, just to name a few.

  175. @ John

    White washed sepulchres dominate here. The amount of hate spewing from you is terrible! Tell us all of the difficult struggles and sins you’ve been apart of so we can dissect you and say what horrible people you are, speculating, asduming, and binding you with the shackles of legalism, all in the name of God. Jesus would call you vipers: ” “Woe to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth (tithe) of your mint and dill and cumin [focusing on minor matters], and have neglected the weightier [more important moral and spiritual] provisions of the Law: JUSTICE and MERCY and FAITHFULNESS; but these are the [primary] things you ought to have done without neglecting the others.”

    Holding Lysa to the standards of the Scripture is being a white washed Pharisee?

    That would require us to:

    1. Claim how holy we are compared to those “sinners.” Which no one has done here. We’re all sinners too.

    2. Set higher standards than the ones God has set forth in the Bible. Which, again, no one has done here. In fact, most of the commenters here who you say are “spewing hate” are saying that she and her husband should reconcile (per 1 Corinthians 7) and that she should set down from ministry either because she doesn’t meet the qualifications anymore (1 Tim 3) or because women are not permitted in leadership positions in the Church in the first place (1 Tim 2, 1 Cor 14).

    All that you’re left with is a misplaced analogy that doesn’t work.

    Be reminded: Jesus appeared first to a WOMAN afterHis resurrection, Priscilla was a teacher of Paul, Debra was a judge over all of Israel, and Phoebe was a deaconess, just to name a few.

    I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to get at here. However, it still doesn’t refute the above points that Lysa should step down from ministry due not meeting the qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 or not be leading a ministry in the first place due to the fact that women are prohibited from leadership positions.

    In any case, your examples are easily refuted anyway:

    1. Jesus appeared to a woman first and told her to tell others, which means women can be evangelists. Women are permitted to evangelize.

    2. Priscilla did not teach “Paul.” In Acts 18, Her and her husband *expounded* on the gospel to Apollos. Again, women in the NT are not permitted to teach men (1 Cor 14, 1 Tim 2), but they are permitted to evangelize.

    3. God told the prophetess/judge Deborah to tell Barak to save Israel.

    Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

    4. Phoebe was a deaconess. Deacons/deaconesses do not teach; they serve. Diakonos G1249 — servant, waiter, administrator who carries out plans [of another].

  176. Elspeth says:

    @ Robyn:

    What defines being placed on a pedestal?

    I’ve thought of this a bit myself Robyn because, by some definitions, any husband who holds his wife in high regard in any way could be branded a “pedestalizer”. That makes me laugh because by that definition, my husband could be branded such. This, despite the fact that he has 1no problems calling me out or correcting me, telling me no, and expecting respect and obedience. It’s actually a good balance, but we’ve found that adherence to Scripture usually produces a good balance of love and accountability, grace and truth.

    As for whether or not a woman can “put herself on a pedestal”, of course she can, in her own mind. The so-called pedestal is a metaphor for a state of mind after all.

  177. thedeti says:

    Robyn:

    Pedestalizing: Respecting a wife. I mean REAL respect, the kind of respect a man gives a superior man AFTER that respect has been earned. Deference and admiration. Treating her as if her judgment, morality or intellect are superior to his. Treating a wife as if her accomplishments and achievements confer on her a status above his own. Deferring to a wife and admiring her is pedestalizing her – it’s giving a wife something she is not entitled to and has not earned. A man should never ever defer to or admire his wife as he does with a man who is his superior.

    Not pedestalizing: acknowledging, even praising, her accomplishments and achievements. (but it becomes pedestalization if his praise becomes effusive, constant or elevating her above him). Acknowledging her ability to carry out the functions of her role as wife.

    The Proverbs 31 descriptions of a virtuous wife are not pedestalization. They describe what a wife should be and do for her family and her husband. A husband complimenting his wife is not pedestalization. Prov 31’s verses are expressions of husbandly love and appreciation for a virtuous and useful wife. They are not pedestalization, respect, admiration or deference.

  178. thedeti says:

    and yes, a woman can put herself on a pedestal and demand that others defer to her, admire her, and bring her what she wants and do for her things she wants. But women don’t usually do that. Most of the time, they use sex and their bodies to manipulate men into doing what they want/giving them what they want.

  179. Robyn says:

    @ Els,
    “by some definitions, any husband who holds his wife in high regard in any way could be branded a “pedestalizer”. … That makes me laugh because by that definition, my husband could be branded such.”

    D as well! On the outside of our home sometimes it ‘appears’ like I’m a queen… but that’s because inside our home he **really is** the king.

    “The so-called pedestal is a metaphor for a state of mind after all.” *smh* Illusions of grandeur … sometimes it’s embarrassing to be a female.

    @ thedeti,

    “Treating her as if her judgment, morality or intellect are superior to his. Treating a wife as if her accomplishments and achievements confer on her a status above his own. ”

    Thank you, that helps!

    “Most of the time, they use sex and their bodies to manipulate men into doing what they want/giving them what they want.”

    I think this might be more of an indictment of husbands that haven’t trained it out of their women and allowed them stay in such an immature state. Kind of like parents blaming unruly kids instead of actually parenting them.

  180. Elspeth says:

    I mean REAL respect, the kind of respect a man gives a superior man AFTER that respect has been earned. Deference and admiration. Treating her as if her judgment, morality or intellect are superior to his. Treating a wife as if her accomplishments and achievements confer on her a status above his own.

    In the nearly quarter century I’ve known my husband, the only man I’ve seen SAM offer high levels of deference or admiration toward is my father. And it was obvious that he held my father’s counsel in a different, more potent category than mine. I was in no way offended by that. My father was a giant among men, so he was right to do that.

    On the outside of our home sometimes it ‘appears’ like I’m a queen… but that’s because inside our home he **really is** the king.

    Interesting. My husband’s love for me is pretty obvious to those who know us (insiders and outsiders), but his “kingship” is also just as obvious. I actually like it. It spares me a lot of headaches that other wives have to deal with because it’s well known that there are no open doors through me. Even our children know it. Membership on Team Her Man has its privileges.

    I think this might be more of an indictment of husbands that haven’t trained it out of their women and allowed them to stay in such an immature state. Kind of like parents blaming unruly kids instead of actually parenting them.

    Some men are as stuck as some women are. There are men who (despite having supportive, submissive wives) are unable to take the reins, and when the void gets filled as it necessarily will -nature and vacuums and such- she gets blamed for it.

  181. @ Elspeth

    I think this might be more of an indictment of husbands that haven’t trained it out of their women and allowed them to stay in such an immature state. Kind of like parents blaming unruly kids instead of actually parenting them.
    Some men are as stuck as some women are. There are men who (despite having supportive, submissive wives) are unable to take the reins, and when the void gets filled as it necessarily will -nature and vacuums and such- she gets blamed for it.

    It’s a lot of things.

    1. Fathers rarely teach their sons about being masculine men

    2. Fathers/mothers rarely teach their daughters about being feminine women

    3. The Church as a whole has done a terrible job of discipleship.

    4. There’s no or little pushback against culture/feminism in either the family or Church.

    5. And of course tons of peddled nonsense in the Church about what is sexually attractive, the nature of men and women, and so on. There’s a reason why Christian men are pretty much known as “nice guys”

  182. Samuel Weidemann says:

    I’m not sure if these posts are written by Christians but it’s so sad to me that we are offering opinions on someone else’s life when, as Christians, we are called to love.

    Why do we feel the need to criticize this woman, wife, mother during a difficult time in her life?

    Yes, she makes mistakes and so do we but I’m not sure Jesus ever suggested that we tear each other down or publicly flog each other.

    When Christians feel justified to denounce someone they have never met, it pushes seekers and non-Christians away from us, from church and, most importantly, from a Savior who loves them no matter what they’ve done.

    Yes, it’s easy to take the bait of Satan who wants us to crush others, especially those of faith. We are all tempted to write or speak words that criticize and condemn. But maybe before words are written or spoken that do harm, we should understand what drives us to do it.

    Is it to feel a bit better about ourselves? Does it lift up our pride? Does it makes us feel like a ‘good’ Christian? What really is our motivation for hurting another person? Often it is related to a trigger from our own past life events. When we hurt someone, even a total stranger, and disguise it as legitimate because that person’s behavior deserved it, we are probably playing out an experience from our past that creates a ‘feel good’ moment without us ever realizing it.

    We all do it … every one of us … often. But it is wrong. And we need to do better as Christians.

    Jesus used his strength and confidence to be kind, loving, gentle, forgiving, compassionate, humble…a strong man whose actions spoke louder than words…a strong man who was always thinking about ways to encourage, love and support others…a role model for modern day men.

    Jesus served others. Jesus didn’t seek adoration. Jesus defined how a man is to act.

    If we ask for deeper spiritual strength, Jesus will help us build up, not tear down.

  183. Robyn says:

    @ Samuel Weidemann

    “Yes, she makes mistakes and so do we but I’m not sure Jesus ever suggested that we tear each other down or publicly flog each other.”

    – a “mistake” is an accident, like spilling milk or dropping an egg. a mistake is not sin.
    – initiating divorce is an assault on a brother in Christ – and done in the public eye. (as her ‘ministry’ is)
    – God is a God of repentance and grace. There will be grace for her … when she repents.

  184. Samuel Weidemann says:

    I’m so glad that we are all equal … we are all sinners and we are all loved by God.
    I’m so glad that we don’t know someone’s heart or when someone repents … only God does.
    Thank you, God, that you are the only God and that you never gave any of us your full power.
    Thank you, God, for not allowing us to be false imitators of you.
    Thank you for extending grace to sinners who criticize sinners ‘in your name.’

  185. Robyn says:

    And thank You Lord for extending grace to sinners that criticize those calling sin out. Amen.

  186. Samuel Weidemann says:

    YES YES YES !!!!
    Agreed from one sinner to another!

  187. earlthomas786 says:

    Jesus served others. Jesus didn’t seek adoration. Jesus defined how a man is to act.

    And Jesus called out sinners. Or was he supposed to be lovey dovey with the Pharisees who didn’t act like they preached and not tip over tables and whip those who were selling birds in the temple?

  188. I cannot believe the support for her husband here. I read all of the comments where people are blaming her for her husband’s sin. How can you so easily justify adultery? You should be ashamed of yourselves. A real man finds his purpose, value, and worth in Christ… NOT THE ADORATION OF WOMEN. (I am a man writing this)

    Pray for her. Pray for her husband. But do not cast blame on the victim of this situation. Especially when you are so far from the situation.

  189. And Jesus said that a large portion of those that call him Lord will have no part in Heaven.

    @weplusyoublog

    She had previously murdered one of his children. The fact he hadn’t dropped her like a bad habit decades before didn’t point to his great wisdom. Regardless, Lysa held herself out as a “teacher” and utterly failed at the subject.

    He sinned; She should fear deeply for her salvation. The honest Christian will point out the failure, not hush it up or virtue signal about it. (In either direction.)

  190. @earlthomas786

    Jesus never answered questions, relentlessly mocked the Pharisees, one-upped them in all situations where they tried to trap him and enraged them so much they broke a host of laws they claimed to keep, just to kill him. And, to top it off, they once pissed him off so much that he grabbed a weapon and ran out the moneychangers from the Temple.

    He also repeatedly said they were wrong, belittled their understanding of the Law, called them hypocrites and called them nasty names. Jesus, the Man, got into verbal sparing matches practically everywhere He went.

    The actual Jesus, as displayed in the Gospels & New Testament, isn’t much of anything like Hippy Jesus that’s preached or the hagiographic text-worship others get stuck in.

  191. Robyn says:

    @ Looking Glass,

    yep

  192. earlthomas786 says:

    The actual Jesus, as displayed in the Gospels & New Testament, isn’t much of anything like Hippy Jesus that’s preached or the hagiographic text-worship others get stuck in.

    There’s the Gospel that gives us who Jesus is, he started his ministry with ‘Repent, for the Kindgom of Heaven is at hand’…and the personal Jesus, someone to hear your prayers, someone who cares. The nice guy who would never think to point out that you are a sinner…especially if you are a woman.

  193. Sophia says:

    And now Lysa is back. She recently posted on her blog and now is back to traveling and speaking at conferences. I just wonder what her message will now be? Again, I extend grace to someone pursuing a biblical divorce, but I think she’s now disqualified from carrying on her same ministry. Obviously she took a financial hit being silent for four months so maybe that’s the motivation?

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