Hypergamy is good

Figured it would be good to have a post this topic as I haven’t done one already and Donal’s thread recently brought it up.

Historically, hypergamy — termed in 19th century India — was used to signify marrying up in terms of caste or status. However, colloquially and in social sciences now it means simply marrying up (in whatever capacity).

To put it another way, hypergamy is simply the traits in which women are sexually attracted to men: masculinity, power, status, charisma, looks, money, athleticism, talent, and so on. These are the ways that women will “marry up” because they want to be with a man who is sexually attractive to them.

God created women with a hypergamous instinct and therefore it is good. It is good just as the fact that God created men are attracted to beautiful, young, virgins. This is also the same as the fact that sexual desire is good. This is also the same as the fact that authority is good because of the intention with how God created it, even though fallible humans can use authority selfishly.

The main problem is when hypergamous instincts become an idol. There’s nothing wrong with factoring in sexual attraction in choosing a husband (or vice versa with a wife). However, if it is chosen over good character, strong faith, or other attributes such as roles and responsibilities in marriage or pre-marital sex or other type of sinful activities then it goes off the rails.

Of course, the culture is all about glorifying that which is sinful and evil, so we tend to get the impression that hypergamy is bad. However, it is not in itself bad.

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47 Responses to Hypergamy is good

  1. “There’s nothing wrong with factoring in sexual attraction in choosing a husband (or vice versa with a wife). However, if it is chosen over good character, strong faith, or other attributes such as roles and responsibilities in marriage or pre-marital sex or other type of sinful activities then it goes off the rails.”

    Yes, this is very true! Sexual attraction is important, but needs to be balanced with other factors.

    I think another problem/issue, is that young women don’t just have endless amounts of time to weigh up all their options. You have to balance making the best choice with making a choice in the time available to you.
    I had a crush on this one guy for a long time before I met my husband, and I hoped he felt the same about me, but just wasn’t acting on it because we lived in different places. So when I moved to his city (to go to uni, when I was 18), I set him a time limit (in my head) whereby if he hadn’t made a move, I would mentally move on from the hope of a relationship with him.
    Well, it turns out the time limit was not required, because I met my husband and the rest is history, lol.
    But both my husband and I have talked about how we each had multiple people “on our radars” when we started dating. Now, I could have taken longer to really assess which guy I wanted to date, but time was ticking and maybe my husband would have picked another girl if I held back from dating him.

    So all that to say… yes, as women we want to pick the best man available, but we need to act fairly quickly or that “best option” might disappear!

  2. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    Hypergamy leads to the divorce and marry up phenomenon. When a woman believes she has a considerably higher sexual market value than her husband she is drawn to adulterous thoughts and actions.

    Oscar Wilde once quipped that it is easy to know what women want, they want the best. They do want the best they can get, if they think they can do better then the man they married then covenants, vows, and households are all disposable. In the case where a woman stays, she often feels like she is settling and bitterness and contempt for her husband are cultivated.

    In an unmarried woman, hypergamy can be a cause in the delay of marriage so that the modern woman with her uber-self-esteem can hold out for the best she can get. All the while rejecting good and God fearing men. “Why settle? Your worth it!”

    Once a woman is married hypergamy is the fuel of discontent and harletry. It is the seeking of a new and improved Lord the equivalent to the idolatry of Israel and Judah. Hypergamy is antithetical to a meek and quite spirit; it is proud selfish and an unsettled spirit.

  3. earlthomas786 says:

    In an unmarried woman, hypergamy can be a cause in the delay of marriage so that the modern woman with her uber-self-esteem can hold out for the best she can get. All the while rejecting good and God fearing men. “Why settle? Your worth it!”

    Once a woman is married hypergamy is the fuel of discontent and harletry. It is the seeking of a new and improved Lord the equivalent to the idolatry of Israel and Judah. Hypergamy is antithetical to a meek and quite spirit; it is proud selfish and an unsettled spirit.

    Hypergamy doesn’t seem to be about choosing the best, but convincing yourself that you didn’t choose the best (like you said the heart of discontent).

  4. Jacob says:

    Hypergamy IS as original sin IS. Both were created by God to test Man, which man and woman both failed. They are not part of God’s unfolding plan for Christ and the church, which Christian marriage models. The new relationship is not about finding pretty virgins and men to whom they feel they can submit! It is about loving and serving each other sacrificially. The old tendencies exist certainly, but to call hypergamy “good” is to glorify the old creation ahead of the new. If a woman is unable to control her hypergamous nature she is not serious about being a Christian wife. Same goes for men who are unable to control their desire for pretty young virgins. Doesn’t make those things wrong, but it is rather missing the purpose of Christian marriage. It’s not about who you marry but why, and how best to glorify God and honor till death the union He has given you. It’s kinda cute when an Alpha guy marries a hot virgin, but if that’s the “good”, the church would have died millenia ago.

  5. anonymous_ng says:

    @SS I think another problem/issue, is that young women don’t just have endless amounts of time to weigh up all their options. You have to balance making the best choice with making a choice in the time available to you.

    Are you kidding? Women have infinitely more time in the present age than they’ve ever had, and make worse choices for it.

    One could turn your idea around and say that if women would only choose from the men in her “village”, she’d have all the time in the world to evaluate their character, and choose wisely, but it’s only when she believes that the world is her oyster that she runs out of time to choose amongst them until it’s cats, cats, and more cats.

  6. @ Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    Hypergamy leads to the divorce and marry up phenomenon. When a woman believes she has a considerably higher sexual market value than her husband she is drawn to adulterous thoughts and actions.

    No, it doesn’t.

    Consider the US and other countries prior to:

    1. pro-divorce laws
    2. pro-mother custody laws
    3. pro-duluth laws
    4. honor fathers and husbands
    5. husband authority in marriage

    A society, culture, or community that imposes correct limitations, consequences, authority, and honor where it is due will have a vast majority of stable marriages (even if secular) due to emulating God’s laws.

    Of course, dysfunction begets more dysfunction. It’s not a surprise that hypergamy, devoid of consequences, blows up into a monster. But that’s no different than any other desire left unchecked: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, sloth, etc.

  7. @ Jacob

    Hypergamy IS as original sin IS. Both were created by God to test Man, which man and woman both failed. They are not part of God’s unfolding plan for Christ and the church, which Christian marriage models.

    No, this is the same as calling sexual desire sinful.

    The new relationship is not about finding pretty virgins and men to whom they feel they can submit!

    No, but sexual desire is definitely a core component of marriage.

    Excluding the physical aspects of marriage is the same as many of the ascetic and gnostic heresies that determine anything related to the flesh is evil.

    It is about loving and serving each other sacrificially. The old tendencies exist certainly, but to call hypergamy “good” is to glorify the old creation ahead of the new.

    You can serve in marriage by satisfying each other’s sexual needs. Failure to do so is to tempt them.

    1 Cor 7:3 The husband must [a]fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and [b]come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

    Why does my wife want to stay fit and trim and feminine? To please me. Why do I want to continually be a good leader and masculine? Because I want to please her. Why do we want to fulfill each others’ sexual needs? Because it is satisfying and pleasing God.

    Doesn’t make those things wrong, but it is rather missing the purpose of Christian marriage.

    The purpose of Christian marriage is unity. Sexual desire and sex are one of the primary examples of unity.

    Don’t fall prey to the asceticism trap by calling the unifying aspects of the flesh as sinful.

  8. Here’s the thing.

    1. Anything that God created is good.
    2. Human fallibility and lack of contentment are not reasons that nullify God’s creation as good.

    Let’s call today’s culture and unrestrained hypergamy: humans are good at being tempted and sinning.

    Hypergamy, within God’s plan for marriage, is good. A husband’s authority and his responsibility to love his wife toward sanctification and a wife’s role and responsibility to submit to and respect her husband will satisfy a wife’s hypergamous desire.

    The lack of good examples of godly marriages does not nullify the fact that God’s creation in the righteous context is the ideal.

  9. Robyn says:

    This was an excellent post!

  10. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    Was Eve created with hypergamy? Maybe she should have held out for a better husband. Was not the woman created for the man and not the man for the woman? Does not hypergamy flip this creation purpose on its head?

    It seems that Eve’ s hypergamy evidenced itself when she wanted the very best, “to be as God”. Too bad she did not desire to be obedient instead.

  11. Daniel says:

    Men, if you’re like me, you have wondered why God gave us such a strong sexual appetite. As a Christian teen, I did not have sex, but I struggled mightily with lust. What purpose could this hunger serve when I was not in a position to legitimately feed it? Later, after I was married, I found that lust for other women had not disappeared. Again, what was the purpose of this hunger? Was it God given/inflicted? Or was it a corruption of my nature that I could not blame on God? I still don;t have all the answers to those questions, even as I council my teenage sons.

    Men of all ages are attracted to young women, even when there is no legitimate way of indulging the desires of the flesh. I’m thankful that as I’ve gotten older, my desires have grown less intense. So why did God give us those desires? I can think of two good reasons: 1. To drive us to find a wife and reproduce, when we otherwise would Go Our Own Way. 2. To form a bond with our wives.

    Now if a man were to indulge a desire to always pursue a newer, younger, hotter woman, where would that lead? 1. Delay of marriage, so that he could continue to play the field 2. Divorce and remarriage, which is adultery, and “Treachery” against the wife of one’s youth.

    God has also given women a right desire for man. It too is corrupted by sin. The two good reasons would be the same: to drive them to find an attractive husband and reproduce, and to form a bond with their husband. If she is submissive, then she will have a husband to reverence.

    Men and women both want the best mate they can find. “Hypergamy” implies that there is something more going on. After a woman finds a man, he tends to wane in her estimation, and she is on the lookout for a better man.

    So men are naturally Treacherous and women are naturally Hypergamous. Without moral restriction, men will ditch their wives for better ones. Jesus confronted the Pharisees for doing this. Without moral restriction, women will ditch their husbands for better ones. Jesus also called this adultery.

    So far we have ignored the fact that a woman is not free to chose whoever she wants to marry. That is her father’s prerogative. In our culture, most father’s let their daughters pick whoever they want and then “give their blessing.” But biblically, a woman may marry a man who isn’t the epitome of her desires. The God given desire for her husband has to be cultivated.

    Hypergamy be damned.

  12. @ Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    The fact that Eve chose to use her hypergamy sinfully is not good (covetously eying God’s position). But that does not make hypergamy itself sinful.

  13. @ Daniel

    Men and women both want the best mate they can find. “Hypergamy” implies that there is something more going on. After a woman finds a man, he tends to wane in her estimation, and she is on the lookout for a better man.

    So men are naturally Treacherous and women are naturally Hypergamous. Without moral restriction, men will ditch their wives for better ones. Jesus confronted the Pharisees for doing this. Without moral restriction, women will ditch their husbands for better ones. Jesus also called this adultery.

    So far we have ignored the fact that a woman is not free to chose whoever she wants to marry. That is her father’s prerogative. In our culture, most father’s let their daughters pick whoever they want and then “give their blessing.” But biblically, a woman may marry a man who isn’t the epitome of her desires. The God given desire for her husband has to be cultivated.

    No. You’re equating God’s creation with evil.

    Hypergamy is a woman’s desire to marry up or rather find an attractive spouse.

    This is good if this desire leads to marriage within the context of Scripture (e.g. father’s permission, obedience and respect toward husband, etc.)

    This is bad if it leads a wife toward adulterous unions or pre-marital sex or discontentment and so on.

    The key is to teach young women and wives that the outlet for their sexual drive and their hypergamy is their husband. Likewise, the same thing for men is to teach them that the outlet for the sex drive and desire for a young, beautiful women is the wife of their youth.

    Anything else is the temptation to sin by deviating from God’s plan for their desires. Destructive consequences follow anyone that chooses sinfulness.

    The created desires are intrinsically good as God created them and God’s creation of humans is very good. However, *in action* they are only good insofar as the moral agent uses them for good.

  14. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    @DS I think you are saying that Eve’s desire for her husband, much like Adam’s rule of his wife were morally righteous. But because of the fall both the ruling and the innate desire have been corrupted.

    The problem is that there has been a myriad of attacks on the rule of husbands and scarce restraint on the desires of women. In fact the modern church seems to equate a woman’s desires with the Holy Spirit. Hence when a woman at church files for divorce she recieves sympathy while her husband a double helping of scorn.

    So when you speak of hypergamy, what is witnessed is nearly unrestrained sin, not holy desire for her husband, but desire for men better than her husband. Maybe her desire is for a romance novel hero or a man with deeper pockets or perhaps someone who can navigate past her sin who is immune to her fits and threats.

    What many here have experienced is that when a husband attempts to reign in that unholy desire he is labeled as abusive by the culture and the church. So the corrupt desire grows stronger while his rule is vanquished.

    Hypergamy is a sense of entitlement, as in I am entitled to be happy and get tingles. Entitlement is contrary to humility and meekness. The reception of grace does not not lead to entitlement, but gratitude. Hypergamy that is corrupted by sin is ungrateful for grace seeking something better to that which a woman feels entitled. Serial polyandry is The fruit of hypergamy unrestrained. But all she wants is something good right? A better husband? The truly infuriating thing is that she would be more likely to get that better husband if she stopped belittling the one God already joined to her.

  15. I think I disagree a bit, but we’re dealing with definitions and not actual argumentation. You have the pre-Fall nature and the post-Fall corruption of that nature. Where does the Good end?

    Desires aren’t inherently evil, but they can easily get twisted to evil purposes. How poisoned is the hypergamous instinct within Women? That’s why this is more of an issue of where does one delineate the definitions.

    Which probably means this is a non-answer. Ha!

  16. @ Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    (1) @DS I think you are saying that Eve’s desire for her husband, much like Adam’s rule of his wife were morally righteous. 2 But because of the fall both the ruling and the innate desire have been corrupted.

    1. Yes.
    2. No.

    Because the desire was created before the fall I think the desire itself is good.

    I think in the current cultural and church situation that the desire is very easily hijacked to evil. For example, serial monogamy, rotating polyandry, casual hookups, etc.

    The hypergamic desire of a single woman to find a husband and to be his wife until death do they part is good.

    The problem is that there has been a myriad of attacks on the rule of husbands and scarce restraint on the desires of women. In fact the modern church seems to equate a woman’s desires with the Holy Spirit. Hence when a woman at church files for divorce she recieves sympathy while her husband a double helping of scorn.

    Agreed. Culture and the Church both peddle sinful hypergamic desires.

    Most notably and as you mentioned:

    ~ “daughter of the king”
    ~ desire of a wife for her husband is in how godly he is (e.g. wife’s vagina is the Holy Spirit”)

    So when you speak of hypergamy, what is witnessed is nearly unrestrained sin, not holy desire for her husband, but desire for men better than her husband. Maybe her desire is for a romance novel hero or a man with deeper pockets or perhaps someone who can navigate past her sin who is immune to her fits and threats.

    What many here have experienced is that when a husband attempts to reign in that unholy desire he is labeled as abusive by the culture and the church. So the corrupt desire grows stronger while his rule is vanquished.

    Agreed. Hypergamy that is used for sinful purposes.

    Hypergamy is a sense of entitlement, as in I am entitled to be happy and get tingles. Entitlement is contrary to humility and meekness. The reception of grace does not not lead to entitlement, but gratitude. Hypergamy that is corrupted by sin is ungrateful for grace seeking something better to that which a woman feels entitled. Serial polyandry is The fruit of hypergamy unrestrained. But all she wants is something good right? A better husband? The truly infuriating thing is that she would be more likely to get that better husband if she stopped belittling the one God already joined to her.

    The “fruit” of hypergamy is how a wife treats her desire, whether good or evil.

    If it’s for her husband it’s good.

    If it’s for premarital sex, trading up husbands, etc then it’s evil.

    I agree that we mostly see evil examples now. But like authority, lots of bad examples don’t make authority itself evil. Authority, like hypergamy, is created by God. It’s intrinsically good, but fallible humans can use what is intrinsically good for evil.

  17. @ Looking Glass

    I think I disagree a bit, but we’re dealing with definitions and not actual argumentation. You have the pre-Fall nature and the post-Fall corruption of that nature. Where does the Good end?

    Desires aren’t inherently evil, but they can easily get twisted to evil purposes. How poisoned is the hypergamous instinct within Women? That’s why this is more of an issue of where does one delineate the definitions.

    Sort of.

    I think that most people have a conception of hypergamy based on manosphere terms that is incorrect according to how God created male and female.

    Hypergamy is simply a woman’s desire to marry up (as traditionally defined at least). If a woman marries a husband, that is hypergamy fulfilled which is good.

    It is only IF she is tempted by to divorce and marry another and/or commit adultery that the desire goes haywire.

    A wife that has cleaved to her husband for life and born his children, who submits to him and respects him, has her hypergamy fulfilled and has used it for holy means.

    Of course, both the culture and church continue to peddle nonsense that continues to fuel hypergamic desire and discontent among women which is why we only tend to see evil examples.

  18. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    Authority, like hypergamy, is created by God.

    Authority is a communicable attribute of God, it is part of His nature and as such not created. Hypergamy is not an attribute of God at all, it is an attribute exclusive to the creature.

  19. @anonymous_ng
    I understand that women do tend to take longer to “choose” these days, but what I was addressing was the fact that men – especially the best ones for marriage – are not just objects that will sit around waiting for a woman to check the boxes and compare them with other men. They are also making their own choices about which woman to marry. So a woman only has a limited time, if she wants to make a wise choice.
    And the “choose from your own village” advice (sorry if I misunderstood – were you offering that as advice, or just stating it as conventional advice?) only works for certain groups – I grew up in a small town and there were no young, single Christian men. I moved to a big city to study, and also to find a husband. I had no delusions about the world being my oyster, but I knew that if I wanted to marry young, I needed to move where more men were.

  20. Don Quixote says:

    Great discussion DS. But I think I agree with Jonadab-the-Rechabite on this.
    The following statement [by DS] sounds like a contradiction in terms:

    “The hyperaemic desire of a single woman to find a husband and to be his wife until death do they part is good.”

    I see these things as being somehow separate.
    Sexual desire = good.
    Selfishness = bad.
    Combine the two and the result is hypergamy.

    BTW. A few years ago a friend lent me a copy of Rollo’s book. The Rational Male. I read some of the book [didn’t finish it] and later on discussed it with my friend. I pronounced the word ‘Hypergamy’ as hyper – gammy, my friend corrected me by pronouncing it as ‘high – pergammy’. I accepted this correction until I heard Rollo pronounce it on a pod-cast as ‘Hyper – gammy. Does anyone know the correct pronunciation?

  21. Don Quixote says:

    UPDATE:
    There seems to be no consensus on this:
    http://sociologydictionary.org/how-to-pronounce-hypergamy/

    Only computers sound this bad:

  22. @ Don Quixote

    No, even if you define hypergamy as selfish, it’s not inherently sinful.

    Hypergamy is the desire the “marry up” which is analogous to men wanting to marry a “young beautiful virgin.” It’s a woman’s sexual attraction to a man (which ultimately manifests into sexual desire).

    If you’re calling women wanting a masculine, ambitious leader a sin then men wanting a young beautiful virgin is a sin.

    It’s only a “sin” when it stands outside of God’s intention — e.g. pre-marital sex, adultery, serial polyandry, etc.

  23. @ Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    Authority is only an analogy insofar as “authority” is constantly called evil by our culture and the Church which is why we have a bad impression of it.

    The direct analogy to hypergamy is a man’s desire to marry a young, beautiful virgin. Likewise, the painting of male sexual desire as sinful, while female sexual desire is good.

    Like I said to DQ, if a woman wanting to marry a masculine, ambitious leader is a sin (e.g. hypergamy), then a man wanting to marry a young, beautiful virgin is also a sin.

    I don’t think any one of us would agree with that. It’s only a sin IF the hypergamy is allowed to manifest into areas outside of God’s design for it which is marriage — these are pre-marital sex, adultery, and so on.

  24. @ DQ

    As for the word pronunciation, it’s probably similar to a word like “hypertrophy”

  25. Stephanie says:

    “One could turn your idea around and say that if women would only choose from the men in her “village,” she’d have all the time in the world to evaluate their character, and choose wisely….”

    Hypergamy is why she doesn’t choose from her own village, but must go far away to seek a better mate elsewhere.

    I can see both sides of it being “good” for her in that she finds a “good enough” mate, but it doesn’t become “fulfilled” like Deepstrength said.

    If it was able to be “fulfilled” then Bathsheba, being married to one of King David’s Mighty Men, would not have fallen for the King but been happily married to her own mighty warrior that many other men wished to be like.

    Hypergamy is never fulfilled and it doesn’t go away, no matter how much a Christian woman tries to lie to you about her true sinful nature. It can be controlled, disciplined, managed etc. but I don’t think it’s a “good” thing in and of itself.

  26. Stephanie says:

    “Hypergamy is simply a woman’s desire to marry up (as traditionally defined at least). If a woman marries a husband, that is hypergamy fulfilled which is good”

    This is where you’re misunderstanding female sin nature.

    Just like lust is never truly fulfilled, but can be managed, controlled, disciplined, etc., it’s pretty accurate to say that hypergamy is never truly fulfilled, even though many Christian (or secular) women will try to tell you otherwise.

    Can those two things (for each sex) be almost totally fulfilled in marriage? Yes, but that’s still not the definition of the word “fulfilled” that you used. Partially fulfilled, sure. Make the hypergamy go away? No.

    Ame (from Blending Ame) wrote about this a couple of months ago at my blog.

  27. Stephanie says:

    “No, even if you define hypergamy as selfish, it’s not inherently sinful.”

    I think you’re missing the nuances of it that all the other men are trying to point out to you here. Most are disagreeing (sorry 😦 ), and they really have good points.

    It’s not exactly the same as lust. Hypergamy may lead to a woman finding a good partner yes, but it just doesn’t stop there, and to think it does, doesn’t help the men you’re trying to help with seeking out Truth of female sin nature.

    I think it is right to say it’s akin to a sinful nature (hypergamy), because if not controlled it does lead to thoughts of discontentment, comparing your husband to other husbands, etc. I’ve seen it a lot in friends and people we know. It may be “natural” to see another man with more clout or something than your husband has, and feel attracted to it, but it’s not inherently a “good” thing, and it’s not something that can be totally “fulfilled” by your husband being perfect or you being content. One can be amazingly content and still feel that temptation in the back of one’s mind. And I don’t believe feeling that temptation is a “good” thing, unless you think lust for other women, or comparing other women to your wife when you’re out, is a “good” thing.

    Men feel tempted without wanting to, and that temptation isn’t “sin” maybe because they don’t act on it, but it’s also not inherently “good” either. Women feel that temptation of hypergamy even after marriage (sometimes rarely though depending on her personality), and even if they don’t want to feel tempted because they ARE content, but it’s still there.

  28. Robyn says:

    to Stephanie:
    “Hypergamy is why she doesn’t choose from her own village, but must go far away to seek a better mate elsewhere.”

    -I moved from my parents home, two hours west to the metropolitan Toronto, because I did not want to marry someone from my own town “village”. Darrell moved one hour south, to Toronto, because he did not want to marry a woman from his small town. We met and got married. You are saying that only the female is ‘guilty’ of hypergamy?

    “Just like lust is never truly fulfilled, but can be managed, controlled, disciplined, etc., it’s pretty accurate to say that hypergamy is never truly fulfilled, even though many Christian (or secular) women will try to tell you otherwise.”

    -Yes, hypergamy is never fulfilled because women cannot stop being female. Hypergamy is good when it drives her man to achieve. Hypergamy is bad when she uses it to drive her own achievement; as in career. It’s female power that’s used for the benefit of others.

    As DS said, it is no different than the sin of abused leadership. Masculine authority is good when it’s used for the benefit of the wife and family. Masculine authority is bad when the beneficiary is solely self. It’s male power that’s used for the benefit of others.

  29. Stephanie says:

    “You are saying that only the female is ‘guilty’ of hypergamy?”

    No, Robyn, I generally agree with you, I think the definition of what exactly hypergamy is, isn’t really spelled out. Both sexes obviously want to find the best person they can for themselves, and that’s not bad. But I also firmly don’t believe that that is the real definition of hypergamy.

    Deep Strength said it can be “fulfilled” in marriage, I don’t think it works that way.

  30. Robyn says:

    (I never do double comments, but I want to address this):

    Stephanie:

    “Women feel that temptation of hypergamy even after marriage (sometimes rarely though depending on her personality), and even if they don’t want to feel tempted because they ARE content, but it’s still there.”

    -i’m not “lying” …. never, ever, ever, ever have I ‘felt’ that temptation you are talking about. My husband is more … MORE than enough man for me.

    -have we had rough times when i wanted to leave him? YES. but *never* for another man, to ‘marry-up’, if I ever left him (which i wouldn’t because I believe it’s giving over ground to satan) I would, at the very least remain single.

  31. Robyn says:

    Stephanie:
    “Deep Strength said it can be “fulfilled” in marriage, I don’t think it works that way.”

    -it *is* working that way in our marriage. It might not work that way in your marriage though.

  32. @ Stephanie

    I mean it’s all definitions.

    The standard definition of hypergamy is to “marry up.”

    That can clearly be fulfilled and pursued righteously by a wife staying with her husband ’til death.

    If we are saying that hypergamy is the “trading up” even after marriage like we see is prevalent, then I agree that is sinful.

    I don’t think there is enough evidence in the particular definition of hypergamy to say that it’s like that though.

    Men still desire young, beautiful virgins even if they are married… but that doesn’t make it sinful until they pursue them which means committing adultery.

    Temptations are not sinful until you actually choose sin. Jesus was tempted and did not choose to sin.

  33. Stephanie says:

    I did say that temptation is not sinful until acted upon, but I also pointed out that it wouldn’t be a good thing in itself either. I believe (as per Rollo Tomassi’s and Dalrock’s working definition of hypergamy) that it’s more than just “wanting to marry up.”

    Here’s what I said (again):
    “Men feel tempted without wanting to, and that temptation isn’t “sin” maybe because they don’t act on it, but it’s also not inherently “good” either. Women feel that temptation of hypergamy even after marriage (sometimes rarely though depending on her personality), and even if they don’t want to feel tempted because they ARE content, but it’s still there.”

  34. Stephanie says:

    And I won’t comment anymore DS! The men have all pretty much tried to correct you, and I just thought I’d give you a female insight into why they’re trying.

  35. Stephanie says:

    Feel free to delete! But just thought I’d add one more thing to help with understanding:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/the-ubiquitous-frame-of-hypergamy/

    ” Women do want to marry. What they don’t (innately) want is to stay married. More accurately, they want the exclusive option to unilaterally end the marriage should they feel that they have better options. Women’s natural desire for marriage needs to be understood in the frame of the feral woman’s script. The flawed assumption is that a woman marrying naturally represents a woman who has found her rock and intends to stay there.”

  36. Don Quixote says:

    Deep Strength says:
    December 9, 2017 at 1:23 pm

    @ Don Quixote

    No, even if you define hypergamy as selfish, it’s not inherently sinful.

    Hypergamy is the desire the “marry up” which is analogous to men wanting to marry a “young beautiful virgin.” It’s a woman’s sexual attraction to a man (which ultimately manifests into sexual desire).

    If you’re calling women wanting a masculine, ambitious leader a sin then men wanting a young beautiful virgin is a sin.

    It’s only a “sin” when it stands outside of God’s intention — e.g. pre-marital sex, adultery, serial polyandry, etc.

    I have a tendency to fall back on my calvinist foundation, i.e. the doctrine of total depravity. [I think that Jonadab is also reformed in his thinking.]
    The doctrine of ‘Total depravity’ teaches that all human nature is corrupt, we cannot change that. Only Jesus Christ can give us a new nature via regeneration AKA being born again.
    Therefore hypergamy gets put into a basket called ‘human nature’. It doesn’t mean that we are as bad as we can be, but rather, in all of us dwells a corrupt nature that must be overcome by faith in Jesus, and taking up the cross for His glory. This raises a difficult question:
    Does this mean that women [and men] must fight against the way they are when it comes to choosing a partner? I’m not sure.

    I suppose that best way to answer is to rely on:
    a) The choice of parents.
    b) Stick to what God says in His word concerning marriage, i.e. Men marry a virgin. Girls get daddy to vet your suitors.

  37. @ Don Quixote

    So there’s a couple of things.

    1. Defining “hypergamy” is the big one.

    If we define hypergamy as simply marry up, then my definition is correct.

    However, if we attribute some sort of “trade up” notion to it then it’s sinful.

    2. The notion of pre-fall versus post-fall nature. How much what God created is “corrupted” in a sense.

    Temptation was present prior to the fall (as both Eve and Adam were tempted in different ways) which means that temptation and the ability to be tempted are not inherently sinful.

  38. @ Stephanie

    There’s nothing to “correct.”

    I already said that if we’re defining hypergamy as “trade up,” especially in marriage then it’s sinful. The actual definition of hypergamy is to “marry up” which is not the same thing.

    I am not concerned with using manosphere terms because they are reactionary and only observing mainly a secular immoral environment. I’d rather examine it in terms of the Scripture with the common sociological definition.

  39. Stephanie says:

    An old comment on that thread from deti:
    “Note the title of this post: the Ubiquitous Frame of Hypergamy.

    I’ve made this point at HUS before, to Susan’s occasional disagreement.

    I don’t agree that hypergamy only operates in young single women, and thus is fortuitously sated when she finds a man willing to marry her. To the contrary, hypergamy operates in all women, all the time, everywhere.

    Hypergamy is an ever present, always running subroutine in every woman’s brain. It starts running when she reaches around age 11 or 12, and does not stop until she is dead. When it’s satisfied, it runs at a low hum. But if it is not, it shouts louder and louder. This subroutine actually serves a good purpose when controlled. It helps her select the best man she can get for reproduction and provisioning.

    All women are hypergamous, all the time. Single women, engaged women, widows. Women who have been married for decades. Every woman wants to know she is with the best man she can get. If things get bad enough in a marriage, her hypergamous subroutine runs louder and faster. Her subroutine is kicking into high gear to search for a replacement husband. She can’t control this, but she can control her response to it. What controls it are her internal morals and external, family and social pressures (if any).

    If it were true that married women aren’t hypergamous, we wouldn’t have a 50% divorce rate. We wouldn’t have “I’m not haaaaaappy” divorces. We wouldn’t have sexless marriages. What we’re seeing is the hypergamy subroutine kicking in, and prodding the woman to trade up.”

  40. Stephanie says:

    What Dalrock said on this topic back then is really good and what I was trying to say:

    “In fact, the woman’s preference would be to have the man she has sex with and obtains commitment from continue to prove to be the best man available to her. In this way she validates her past choice and provides stability for her existing children while experiencing the pleasure of being seduced/courted over and over again.

    But this doesn’t mean that her natural inclination is to find one man and remain faithful to him. Marriage has moral force because it requires a moral choice from both men and women. For a man to remain faithful to his vows he has to suppress his natural urge for sexual variety. For a woman to remain faithful to her vows she must suppress her natural urge to constantly search for a better man to mate with and extract commitment from. She must also suppress her natural urge to attempt to dominate her husband, and to use denial of sex as a tool to do so.”

  41. Stephanie says:

    I agree with this line of thinking that a Christian (or maybe even secular) woman can be totally satisfied and feel like she’s even living in a fairytale (I certainly do 😀 ), go through highs and lows of longterm marriage and do so pretty happily, but also have that innate hypergamy (not a good thing) running at a low hum that she only gets maybe glints of and very rarely at that.

    And I love what Suz said back then:
    ““deti, the hypergamy thing runs in married women, but some of them do seem to tamp it down fairly well. But it is always there.”

    -What he said. Tamping down hypergamy is NOT difficult, but first a woman must acknowledge it as natural. *inserts tongue in cheek* Apparently we can’t bring ourselves to admit we may have tendencies that are potentially destructive. When I encounter a man who appears to have it all, I could compare my husband unfavorably to what I ASSUME is his superiority, or I could wallow in the good qualities I KNOW my husband has (and end up blushing like a schoolgirl…). Am I deluding myself by reminding myself that I have it pretty good? Am I a fool for not constantly striving to “improve” my status? Am I a wimp for not being willing to risk it all for an unproven fantasy? By today’s standards, probably, but I’m more than cool with that.”

  42. @ Stephanie

    Again, we’re not debating that hypergamy always present. Men also have the temptation to want young beautiful virgins even if they’re in a happy marriage.

    I don’t see how you can classify hypergamy as evil unless you’re also willing to classify men’s desire for young beautiful virgins as evil. That’s the exact analogy of attractiveness between the sexes.

    There is a temptation for each sex, but it isn’t evil until it manifests as evil. And evil can be as little as dwelling on those thoughts of another (e.g. lust/covetousness in heart is adultery in heart).

    Also, you said you weren’t going to post anymore, so you should probably honor that. 😛

  43. Stephanie says:

    lol I’ll honor it, sorry!

  44. Novaseeker says:

    I think Stephanie is more or less correct here, although I don’t think it really disagrees very much with what DS is saying.

    The desire to marry up is not inherently sinful, just as the desire men have to marry BYVs is not sinful. The underlying attractions are not sinful. The problem arises with: “where do they stop”?

    My view is that these are drives that are never really “fulfilled” because they are hungers. The temptation will always be there — at least for most people. If you are in a relationship so inherently satisfying and fulfilling that you feel no temptation at all (either hypergamic temptation or other-BYV temptation), then consider yourself blessed, because most people are not in that situation, and it is perfectly normal as well not to be. We need to be careful here in not misleading people to believe that they will never feel these temptations, or that if they do then the relationship is not the right one — that sets impossible standards and leads to both fewer marriages and more divorces.

    It’s true that the temptations, in themselves, are not sins unless they are given in to, entertained, moved towards. They are, however, reflections of our imperfect humanity, our residual fallen-ness, something that the Catholics call “concupiscence”, which means, more or less, the tendency to be tempted to sin, which is a residual effect of original sin which remains after baptism. This tendency can and must be managed, but one should be very careful, it seems to me, before one assigns the notion of “good” to these temptations — they’re not good, they reflect our residual tendency to be pulled toward sin, and that is certainly the case when it comes to both men and women experiencing these kinds of attractions to people other than our spouses. It happens to us all — we all *suffer* from this to some degree (or at least most do, again see above if you are in the more blessed category) — but this does not mean these drives are inherently good. It seems more accurate to say that they are ordained by God to regulate fallen humans in their fallen human desires — provisionally “approved” in a very specific context (finding one and only one mate) and then not approved or “good” in any sense. In any case, certainly these elements are not fundamental to the ultimately perfected goodness of men or women, because we are told that we are not married in heaven, which would seem to indicate fairly strongly that these sexual/attraction desires for each other are also not manifest in that state of grace-driven perfection, and therefore are unlikely “inherently good”. More accurate to say that they are provisionally approved in a very limited circumstance in our fallen state as a concession to that state, and that outside of that very limited circumstance, they represent fallen-ness as much as any other aspect of our limited, yet-to-be-perfected selves does.

  45. Robyn says:

    to Novaseeker,

    “The underlying attractions are not sinful. The problem arises with: “where do they stop”?”

    -I don’t think they stop. they morph. Jesus didn’t stop the law, He morphed it into grace. The ‘hunting’ to find your desired spouse, begins to change the day after the wedding day, the first day of marriage. The whole dynamic shifts when 2 become 1. Like the law is wrapped up in grace – it didn’t disappear, the hunting is wrapped up in marriage, and not the preface to it anymore.

    “If you are in a relationship so inherently satisfying and fulfilling that you feel no temptation at all (either hypergamic temptation or other-BYV temptation), then consider yourself blessed, because most people are not in that situation, and it is perfectly normal as well not to be.”

    -This sounds dangerously close to saying, “wow you’re so lucky (blessed) you found your soulmate, that you have a great marriage.” Being a great wife; a wife that pleases God, has very little to do with my husband; he’s the beneficiary of it — but it’s a choice she makes. Just like my husband being a husband that pleases God, if I’m completely rebellious, he can’t lay that on me to not love me.

    -It’s normal for the *world* to experience that in marriage; not believers that have the power of the Holy Spirit.

  46. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    In this way she validates her past choice and provides stability for her existing children…

    And all this time I thought honoring her covenant of marriage was the source of validation and stability. I foolishly thought, what could offer stronger validation then the words of Christ, that it was God that joined two together. When will I learn the primacy of feelz over the Word of God? </snarc

  47. PatrickSMcNally says:

    Current lingo misuses words and allows “-gamy” in place of “-amory” where it shouldn’t. Classical polygamy was a means of curbing male polyamory by requiring marriage. Classical hypergamy was a way of curbing female hyperamory by requiring marriage. Modern lingo refers to someone like RooshV as having led a life of polygamy when he rather led a life of polyamory. The arguments over the term “hypergamy” are of the same type. Polyamory for males and hyperamory for females were both considered natural in older societies, but were restricted by the marriage requirement to take the “-gamy” forms. This is why there are so many arguments about the word “hypergamy” in the Manosphere. Because people like Rollo Tomassi mean “hyperamory” when they speak, but instead they use the word “hypergamy” where it shouldn’t be used.

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