Digit ratio or 2D 4D ratio

A few commenters mentioned over on Dalrock’s recent post about the masculine finger ratio that the woman has.

It is always the little unintentional details that give away the bigger picture. I looked at her blog and towards the bottom is a photo of her hand with an engagement ring on the third finger. Her third finger is considerably longer then her first finger. This is always the case with men but with women it is reversed so that the third finger will be shorter than the first. A longer third finger on a woman indicates considerable masculinity and thus probably (given the ease) great promiscuity and of course that is exactly what she admits too although she insults the guys who were too polite to refuse her as ‘crazies’. Usual female projection methinks.

It’s not the 3rd finger but the fourth, and the ratio as the post is named is actually called “digit ratio” or “2d 4d ratio.” If we’re going to talk about it, might as well get it right.

You can read more about it on wikipedia. Overall, it’s a crude approximation to prenatal androgen exposure like testosterone, and it can generally be a predictor of various traits in the sexes. A shorter 2nd digit (pointer finger) compared to the 4th digit (ring finger) indicates higher exposure to prenatal androgens. Now that you know that, men tend to have a lower ratio than women because they are exposed to more prenatal androgens than women.

Here’s the relevant chart off the wiki that shows the different propensities with low digit and high digit ratios. Generally, low digit ratio is better for men and worse for women, and vice versa for high digit ratio. There are some negatives in each for both men and women though.

Low digit ratio High digit ratio
Physiology and disease
  • Increased risk of prostate cancer and prostate diseases in males.[52][53]
  • Slower utero fetal development in both sexes.[52]
  • Increased reproductive success in males.[54]
Psychological disorders
Physical and competitive behavior Increased aggressive behavior in sports.[76]
  • Reduced performance in sports[77]
  • Reduced financial trading ability[78]
  • Right handedness skills[79] (inconclusive)[80]
Cognition and personality
  • Assertiveness in females[9]
  • Psychoticism in females[81]
  • Aggression in males[17][82][83][84][85]
  • aggression in girls[86]
  • hyperactivity and poor social cognitive function in girls[87]
  • Masculinized handwriting in females[88]
  • Perceived ‘dominance’ and masculinity of man’s face[89][90]
  • In an orchestral context, rank and musical ability in males[91]
  • Right hand low digit ratio predicts academic performance[92]
  • Decreased mathematical ability[93]
  • Decreased empathy in response to adult testosterone levels[67]
  • higher propensity to attack without being provoked[94]
  • increased risk-taking behavior in men[95]
  • preference for normative behavior[96]
  • mean 2D:4D ratio among artists is lower than among controls[97]
  • higher numeracy (compared to literacy) in children[98]
  • higher criminal offending rates after puberty[99][100]
  • attenuated socio-affective skills[101]
Management
Sensory perception
Sexual orientation
  • Sexual preference for more masculine men among women[116] and gay men[130] with high digit ratio; a preference for a masculine facial type means a more “feminized” mindset.
  • Lesbians are more likely to be femme and less likely to be butch with a high digit ratio.[118][131] Identical female twins discordant for sexual orientation still show the difference (lesbian less than straight, on average) in digit ratio.[120][132]
  • Homosexuality for men, according to some studies.[119][127][133] Other studies have disputed this; some have shown that the digit ratio in homosexual men is similar to,[117][124][125][126][134]or lower than,[121][123][128] that of heterosexual men. One study concluded that differences are dependent on geographical variation, with gay men having lower or similar ratios to straight men in Europe, but higher or similar in the United States.[135] But this finding has been questioned in a meta-analysis including 18 studies, which suggested that ethnicity, rather than geography, explained the differences previously found in men of different sexual orientations. The meta-analysis concluded that no significant sexual orientation differences in digit ratio exist in men.[136]
  • tendency toward monogamy[129]

Anyway, the relevant aspects in this particular situation with a woman with low digit ratio are some of the increased propensity of these cognitive traits that tend to lead to increases in promiscuity.

  • Assertiveness in females[9]
  • Psychoticism in females[81]
  • aggression in girls[86]
  • hyperactivity and poor social cognitive function in girls[87]

This is actually a very interesting talking point that I’ve used in the past as a tool in conversation and dates because of its ability to generally predict some behavioral traits. But it is also something to look out for in terms of potential risky factors in marriage.

It’s not by all means “proven” that someone is a particular way if they have a certain digit ratio. It’s a overall trend much like virginity and divorce. It’s likely riskier to date or marry a woman with a low digit ratio due to the combination of traits that she usually has with a low digit ratio that makes her personally more competitive like a business partner rather than a wife.

I’d give it a “yellow flag” overall until you get to know them more to see if it’s a red flag based on her past behavior or a non-issue.

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19 Responses to Digit ratio or 2D 4D ratio

  1. Do a youtube search for “MrE” and “Transvestigation.”

    2D 4D is one of the several bio-markers to discern who is a transgender hiding in plain sight.

    Google “Elite Gender Inversion” as well.

    It will change your view of the world – and hollyweird “idols” and “stars” – forever.

  2. elspeth says:

    Wait…wha???

    So my pointer finger being shorter than my ring finger is supposed to mean something?

    I call BS.

  3. @ Elspeth

    It’s actually fairly true.

    Ratios are a bit variable like height.

    Normal female height is around 5’3″-5’4″ish and normal male height is around 5’9″-5’10″ish or so. Of course, there are women that are above 5’9″ and there are men that are shorter than 5’3″ but on average men are taller than women.

    Similarly, men tend to have much shorter 2nd digit lengths than 4th digit length compared to women.

    It’s even been correlated to things like income in stock traders, because men with higher testosterone are more likely to be risk taking than other men.

    Just google “2d 4d ratio” and select images, and there are various photo and illustrated images that tell more details about it.

  4. @ AnonymousManosphereBlogger

    Interesting. Not exactly surprised though.

    Not that I was going to raise my kids on that stuff in the first place, but pretty much confirms that it wouldn’t be a good idea to expose them to cultural indoctrination at an early age.

  5. @elspeth:

    It’s pre-disposition effects, like a lot of things. For Men, at least in the trader example, it also points to risk tolerance. Androgens also effect aspect of cognitive development, so there can be self-selection issues when you look at this stuff.

    You see the effect far more in what a person will select to do in life. Their basic “likes/dislikes” will be shifted more along the lines of the Androgens than a lot of other things, which shifts the rest of the way a person will live there life. Then the life choices start adding up.

  6. Stephanie says:

    It’s pretty accurate, I studied that topic in my upper biology classes on sex and reproduction and embryology. The baby in the uterus is usually exposed to more androgens (testosterone and male hormones like it) that change the brain along with this sign of the finger length difference. It’s biological, and makes sense when you understand that the few women with that characteristic tend to be the few that are extremely driven in the workplace and succeed there, along with sports and general athletics.

    It’s interesting….

  7. Sigma Frame says:

    That woman posted the photo of her hand to show off her ring, but the first thing we notice is not the ring, but her tentacle-length ring finger, and all that it entails… quickly leading us to draw the relevant conclusions which were confirmed by the gist of Dalrock’s post. Namely, that a low 2D:4D ratio for a woman is a (possible) slut tell.

  8. elspeth says:

    See, this is a problem I have with such broad based conclusions drawn from the length of a ring finger. I already know that there are some areas where I am atypical based on conversations with other married women over the past 20 or so years. There are other things supposedly related to this that don’t translate at all.

    However, our decisions are within our control. A longer ring finger on a woman doesn’t automatically denote that she has slept around. You could say that she is perhaps more libidinous, and I won’t disagree at all with it.. But what a woman (or any person) does do with their respective natures is a matter of their rational decisions inspired by their moral standards, not the length of their fingers.

  9. @ elspeth

    No one is drawing conclusions.

    All anyone has ever said is that it’s a risk factor. You actually need to ask/look into their history to find out if they were promiscuous or not or any of the other things it can signify.

    Risk factors often times prove true, but sometimes they don’t.

  10. elspeth says:

    All anyone has ever said is that it’s a risk factor. You actually need to ask/look into their history to find out if they were promiscuous or not or any of the other things it can signify.

    My point exactly. The same as you would with a woman whose ring and index fingers are the same length, but who could also be a major slut.

    So why make a *thing* of finger lengths? It just smacks to me of another attempt to mitigate every possible risk in life by creating tests where it doesn’t make logical sense.

  11. @ elspeth

    So why make a *thing* of finger lengths? It just smacks to me of another attempt to mitigate every possible risk in life by creating tests where it doesn’t make logical sense.

    If it was me I would be asking the hard questions anyway so it would be a moot point like you said.

    All vetting is like this though. This is simply one that that may be an indicator especially if there is some questionable past history. If it can persuade some men to be more careful about past sexual history, then that’s a good thing.

  12. TJC says:

    On the plus side such a woman, absent of any history and inclined to Christianity and to the headship/submission model type marriage might have a higher MMV. After all most men desire women with a higher libido, as long as their morals do not allow them to stray…

  13. @elspeth:

    Faith and/or Will allow someone to overcome their baseline & functional dispositions. Without either, a Human is *highly* predictable given a fairly small amount of information about them. The standard line that modern cultures sell is that it’s either all Fate/Destiny or there is nothing but choices.

    Neither of those are correct.

    If you have a baseline understanding of a person’s genetics, home-life, family dynamic and culture, you can predict a lot about the generalized version of that “person”. All of the Social Media Analytics operate on this assumption. However, a funny little set of things happens on the way to being able to manipulate everyone as will.

    First, while you can’t really change your in-born instincts, you can tamp quite a lot of them down. Second, how you eat and exercise will change the way your mind operates. (Exercise, good; lots of sugar, bad.) That covers Will.

    But Faith in Christ is the ultimate wildcard. While you can predict a lot of reactions if you know the main theological assumptions of a Christian’s denomination, this really fascinating thing happens when Wisdom enters the fray. You actually can’t predict what a Wise Christian will do because the Lord will, most likely, grant you the path for His Will. You don’t Zig rather than Zag; you see the path, stop and do something completely different.

    At a core, human instinctual level, this is the effect that should always make you an outsider in the “World”. You build a collection of actions & approaches that are completely different from the normal world, which will make you both hated and utterly intriguing. You move through life at a different “angle”, which fights against falling into the cultural “go with the flow” that anyone can get caught up within. Then, as Christians, we are to make active choices to Follow. Faith is *always* a choice and that choice has consequences, positive & negative.

    But that doesn’t remove the physical reality of our physiology and the “current” within which it will set you in life. That still exists and is highly predictive, even if you’ve chosen to go another direction. Implementing the other paths takes work.

  14. Stephanie says:

    I would never really notice finger length in real life… and that photo (I thought) actually had her index finger a little cast down compared to the other fingers, which could have given the illusion it was shorter. At least that was my take anyway.

    The affect of androgens on a female embryo is a real thing, and it’s very observable in toddlers when watching them play (thinking of studies done on this). The girls that have been exposed in utero to abnormal amounts of androgens or testosterone, actually play the same as boys do. I think at least one study had toddlers dressed in clothes to hide gender and people guessed the androgen exposed girl-toddlers were boys because they played so rough and different.

    So… if anything it’s just an interesting fact. Testosterone/androgens change the brain in utero A LOT. It is the reason why the separation between the right and left sides of the brain exists in men. So you can imagine if a woman has a more masculine brain (the sides not even connected in the same way a normal woman’s would be) it would affect her entire life.

  15. Elspeth says:

    I asked my husband about this. His reaction was mixed, mirroring a lot of what Looking Glass had to say regarding nurture, faith, values, and accountability. At the end of it, this was his takeaway, because he rightly surmised that I was curious whether he found any kind of credible connection between what Wiki says concerning longer ring fingers and his experience in this marriage.:

    “I’ve been [knowing] you for 25 years. I wouldn’t sweat it.”

    LOL. Guess I’m done..

  16. Haha. God bless, elspeth.

  17. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Looking Glass – I really like that analysis.

    At a core, human instinctual level, this is the effect that should always make you an outsider in the “World”.

  18. @Lost Patrol:

    It revolves back to a number of aspects of the faith, but a Christian should always cause some friction with others via faithful living. You always will have to say “no” to certain things, which is one of many things we don’t teach other Christians.

  19. Pingback: Digit ratio redux | Christianity and masculinity

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