Lori’s Men Prefer Debt-Free Virgins Without Tattoos

I’ve been requested to comment on the boundless article first, so might as well go back to the original.

Original article:

Do you know how much more attractive debt-free virgins (without tattoos) are to young men? Unfortunately, there are so few of these types of young women anymore because of the high costs of college (debt) and sexual promiscuity even within those in the church. As believers in Jesus Christ, we need to live in a way that is pleasing to Him because His ways are the best. He calls debt a burden and urges us to live lives of sexual purity.

Lori’s a bit off here. Virginity and debt are more along the lines of ‘disqualifiers’ rather than actually being ‘attractive.’ These are Biblical concepts to pay down debt and stay pure.

There are many more reasons why Christian young women should carefully consider whether or not they go to college, especially if they want to be wives and mothers someday. Secular universities teach against the God of the Bible and His ways. It’s far from what God calls women to be and do: it teaches them to be independent, loud, and immodest instead of having meek and quiet spirits.

Lori is exactly on point here, and I bolded the most important part. Both the boundless article and podcast criticized the article for being “too black and white.” That’s not how the article is presented at all as you can see by the direct quote.

Unfortunately, it seems that most of the common Christian commentariat seem to be taking the article poorly because it hits on their pet idols: education and ‘don’t judge non-virgins.’

Let’s look at another passage to see whether Lori is being fair or not. Here’s the first point, from a letter a commenter wrote in (Lori put her thoughts in parentheses).

“Men don’t want to marry a women with debt. Most of this debt comes from college. They would also prefer a woman who still lives at her parent’s house that has not had other relationships. Do those two things and you will be highly sought after.”

(I’m not sure about men only preferring women who still live at their parent’s house and have had no other relationships since some young women have no choice but to live away from their families and some have had their hearts broken by men they thought was ‘the one.’ I would agree that most men don’t want to marry a woman with a load of debt! That isn’t right to bring into a marriage.)

The letter writers comments can definitely be seen as “extreme,” but again Lori’s comments are fair in dealing with the reality of the situation.

If you go through and read the rest of Lori’s comments, they are almost all fair. They’re not black and white. They’re full of wisdom.

Obviously, it shouldn’t be a surprise that non-Christians are offended by the Bible, but I suppose it’s not a surprise that Christians with their pet idols are offended by it too. They didn’t read the article carefully at all and are jumping to conclusions.

Let’s move on to the boundless article:

First, I can tell you with confidence after more than a decade of modern courting and dating, online and off, that most men do not prefer virgins.  Ask any virgin woman you know, and she’ll tell you that most men react to her virginity with a spectrum of emotions including shock, shame, disbelief, mirth and fear. These women will say that usually, once you’re out of your teenage years, virginity is a difficult and delicate conversation you must have in your dating life, not a bragging right.

Being a virgin doesn’t guarantee you’re going to attract the cream of the crop. A few years ago, I specified my virginity on my online dating profile. I was promptly asked, by three different men, if I’d become a sister-wife in a polygamous marriage. Being a virgin also attracts deeply misogynistic men looking for a naïve, inexperienced woman whom they can control and abuse.

Virginity is a choice I continue to make because I believe that God is the God of my soul and my body, and He has laid out a very clear sexual ethic in both the Old and New Testaments. And I know there are godly men who believe the same for themselves and are seeking that in a spouse. But telling a young woman that her virginity is something that will catapult her to the front of the “wife selection line” isn’t true, and it isn’t kind to spout such prescriptive lies.

This seems questionable. Most Christian men prefer a virgin, but the author states that ‘most men.’ Given the feminization in the Church, it’s likely that the author of the post is ignoring the unattractive Christian men and lauding the opinions of the non-Christian attractive men who think that virginity is something to be ashamed of.

Virginity is a deal breaker for some Christian men, but it is at least a concern for most Christian men. She is right that it may not necessarily catapult a woman to the front of the wife selection line though: that’s physical beauty.

Second, let’s talk about the prosperity gospel inherent in your premise: “If you just do XYZ, then you’ll be worthy of the best, most godly man money can buy (or behavior can earn).” Your post tells women to be what men like so they can be deserving of the best mate. As if there is a long line of Prince Charmings out there ready to gallop in if only these girls would be good enough for them. Plant your little seeds of righteousness, ladies, and they’ll blossom into a beautiful romance.

This isn’t what the Bible teaches. This if/then religiosity leaves women feeling either guilty and worthless or — if they’re like I was in my early 20s — indignant and angry at God. I’m told I’m beautiful, smart, kind and virtuous. I can run a house, take care of a family, and am an active, vital member of my community. If I’m doing everything “right,” then where’s my godly man? Did God bait-and-switch me?

No, He didn’t. God never promised me a husband. He promised me himself — in this life and the life to come. But teachings like yours obscured that truth for many painful years of my life.

This is reading into the post. Not once did Lori or even the quoted commenter say that if you do all these things then a godly man is going to come and marry you. Projection much?

Your post also instructs women not to go to college. Here again, I’m your poster child of a dutiful young woman. I didn’t go to college — in part because I didn’t want to go deeply into debt, and because my family was going through a lot and needed me at home at that time in my life.

False. “Should carefully consider whether to go to college” is not instructing women not to go to college

I am all for living a holy life with a godly sexual ethic, and for honoring our bodies as temples of the Holy Spirit and living sacrifices. I’m on board with being financially responsible and living as debt free as possible. I’ll shout from the rooftops that the ultimate end of a Christian’s educational life isn’t a diploma or a job, but is the knowledge of God, which is the greatest good.

But my message to young women is not, as yours is, “Live a disposable life. Make yourself small. Erase your heart until a man writes what he wants to see on it.”

My message to young women is this: “Learn and grow for the glory of God and the cultivation of your own soul — not simply to make yourself more attractive to a man.”

I don’t know how you can read Lori’s post and get that conclusion. It’s a huge straw man. But, again, no surprise. People are not actually reading the post clearly and are reacting in outrage with what they thought they read. Even Christians.

Also, women like ignoring attraction (physical beauty), but don’t realize that it is sabotaging their own efforts to get married.  As I’ve always said all along. Though the author is decently attractive, so my guess is that it’s her attitude that is turning men off.

Finally, the boundless podcast I think was fair for the first 10 out of about 20 minutes. They did talk about how these were more disqualifers than things were actually attractive as I referenced. However, they also fell prey to similar things as the boundless article: Lori did not tell women not to go to college: she said to carefully consider it. Also, they fell prey to the common “non-virgins are just sinners like you too” trope.

If a Christian man doesn’t want to marry a non-virgin that’s his choice and vice versa with a Christian woman not wanting to marry a non-virgin. That doesn’t make them not Christians. We can and should be selective about who we marry.

All in all, Lori’s article was good. Posting all of the commenters stances may have been a bit unwise, as some of the stances were not worded that well or what most people would call ‘extreme.’ Lori’s opinions were generally on point with the Scripture.

I would post a bunch of this to the Boundless comments section, but I can’t figure out how to log into my account there anymore. Oh well.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Godly mindset & lifestyle and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

71 Responses to Lori’s Men Prefer Debt-Free Virgins Without Tattoos

  1. SnapperTrx says:

    So, I’m pretty sure the bible contains Godly wisdom advising against marrying a girl who is not a virgin, mostly because if she isn’t then she is someone else’s wife. I understand that 99.9% of Christians would say “if he didn’t put a ring on it then they aren’t married”, but even if that’s their belief the bible was pretty clear that marrying a promiscuous woman is a bad idea and not very smart. Given that the age old axiom of “however many partners she says she’s had, multiply it by three” seems to hold true, that means that, at minimum, most women have had sex with at least three different men before their husbands. Now, the bible doesn’t give us a pre-determined number on what qualifies as promiscuous, but it kind of doesn’t need to because by default the number is 1.

    Church culture is becoming a rotting pile of decaying flesh trying to pretty itself up to keep people funding it. People have little to no understanding of scripture beyond what they read when the skimmed through the words to “get the gist of it”. In the meantime even that must be filtered through the strainer of girl power, self esteem and “not offending anyone”. What a sad state we are in, and what a sad state for Christian girls looking to become women. Men may not prefer you be a virgin when you stand before a church and say “I do”, but guess what, GOD DOES. No surprise that few women care about that.

  2. The viral frenzy only confirms the truth of Lori’s post. If I were to write “Space aliens have landed and are controlling Facebook,” no one would bat an eye. But Lori’s post is “dangerous,” precisely because it is not ridiculous.

  3. Lexet Blog says:

    You should get into their boundless insiders forum and see the environment.

  4. Lexet Blog says:

    From a message I received they removed at least one person from their group for going against the grain.

  5. In fact as I think about it: It will get easier and easier to stir up the anthill. This is because they have such an unwieldy tower of lies to keep propped up, and a weakness at any point threatens the whole thing. Think how many “heretical” ideas Lori has managed to bring up at at stroke:

    “Men prefer” — she didn’t say “It is more attractive (in a Platonic, ideal sense) to be a tattooless debt-free virgin,” she said “Men prefer it.” The implication is that what men prefer is something worth caring about, whereas the entire feminist contention is basically, that it isn’t.

    “Virgins” — Well, if you’re reading this comment, you can fill in the blanks on why this one is unpopular.

    “Some woman might be subject to some standard, somewhere.” — Lori didn’t even say this, but even being near it simply cannot be tolerated.

    Honestly, if Lori didn’t have an extensive blog history, I’d start to wonder if she was a front for Heartiste, aiming for maximum lulz.

  6. SnapperTrx says:

    The typical female response seems to be: “I love Jesus, but you can’t saddle women with this heavy burden.”

    Ah, but Jesus says there will be a burden, these ladies just mistake it for being a heavy one! How much lighter is the burden of scripture when a woman doesn’t become a whore before getting married, saddling herself with guilt, anger, frustration and sadness? How much lighter is the burden of scripture when the only man she has ever “known” is her husband? How much lighter is the burden when she can rely on her husband to provide food, shelter and clothing instead of trying to juggle job, home and children? How much lighter is the burden for any when we follow Gods grand plan and design?

    “Well how do YOU know that’s what God wants for ME?”

    Have they read the scripture? Really, really read it? The parts that call for women to be keepers of the home and obedient to her husband? The parts that tell men to avoid the promiscuous woman because her doorway leads to death? I’ve said time and time again that Christians will readily point out how a man is “worse than an unbeliever” if he does not provide for his family as he is commanded by scripture, yet a woman’s purpose is mysterious as the wind! Instead of being commanded to bear children, obey her husband and keep her home the bible contains no commandment for her except “follow your heart”!

    Blasphemous morons! It will be so much worse for them when they stand before the Almighty and give testament to their misleading those who follow them as teachers! They have the Word, but pervert it for “likes” and a brief moment of attention! They pervert it so they can live life THEIR way instead of GODS way and still feel good about themselves when they wake up in the mornings. Enjoy it while you can, ladies.

  7. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I think that what we may be seeing is women protesting losing their dominance in the sexual marketplace. For all too long, it has been a seller’s market and they grew accustomed to men being forced to accept anything. What may be happening is that men, seeing that it is unwise to attempt to turn a carousel rider into a wife, when confronted with the ultimatum, “Take it or leave it.”, are choosing to leave it. The spectre of divorce looms too large, and a man has to think of children yet unborn.

    There is another analogy. What do people do in a community where there is only one car dealer selling used lemons at new car prices? People are going to walk, take the bus, or ride a bike.

  8. @ fuzziewuzziebear

    I think that what we may be seeing is women protesting losing their dominance in the sexual marketplace. For all too long, it has been a seller’s market and they grew accustomed to men being forced to accept anything. What may be happening is that men, seeing that it is unwise to attempt to turn a carousel rider into a wife, when confronted with the ultimatum, “Take it or leave it.”, are choosing to leave it. The spectre of divorce looms too large, and a man has to think of children yet unborn.

    Possibly.

    I was thinking that it was perhaps more along the lines that in the west women are told they can be anything and have it all over and over and over again.

    Then when they’re told nope you can’t actually have everything, they go ballistic because it shatters their world. It’s not Lori telling them they can’t have it all. It’s Biblical principles.

    Funnily enough, I think it’s a similar reaction to men when they “take the red pill” and see that they were lied to by the culture, feminism, and Church all these years.

    Except instead of turning their life around, they go dig deeper into blue pill reality. Social scripts > Bible.

  9. Lexet Blog says:

    That is why so many men on sites such as boundless popped up against the article and argued like the good blue pilled men they are.

    I’m not sure if it’s harder to turn red pill being a Christian, but many young men aren’t taught WHY they must do certain things and treat women with respect. They fail to understand our fallen nature.

  10. Lexet Blog says:

    I just want to know why a man wouldn’t want a virgin bride. Lack of self respect? Guilt?

  11. SnapperTrx says:

    A) He can’t find one, B) All his Christian friends, family and pastor have guilted him into accepting a non virgin as a bride, telling him that he does not have the heart of Christ if he can’t see past her past “mistakes”. C) He doesn’t know any better and lacks the masculinity to obtain what he wants but instead settles for what he can get. He becomes the “beta bux” we all talk about.

  12. Lexet Blog says:

    Yep

    B is what pisses me off about the response to Lori Alexander’s article. The boundless crowd and so many others make it a gospel issue to have a preference based off of discriminating against sinful choices.

    Yea bro. We determine our elders based on that. Also not a gospel issue.

  13. Hayek's Ghost says:

    DS, check out the Twitter feed of that author of the article from Boundless. While it’s on the milder side of things, it screams out SJW. After seeing it’s no wonder she’s still single. No man with any wisdom or a T-level that exceeds room temperature is going to want to give her a second date. That lady screams contentious. Pro-illegal immigration. Anti-Trump.

  14. Lexet Blog says:

    Isa 3:16 The LORD said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet,

    Isaiah 4:1 And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, “We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach.”

    Oh hey look, America.

  15. Norman says:

    New to the blog and liking it’s focus on Biblical masculinity. On the topic of virgins, I understand that you are married? Was your wife a virgin? Were you? If so, where did you meet her and how? How do you recommend a man meet such a woman, and then apply game to achieve her? Links are fine, and your time is much appreciated.

  16. Wayne says:

    DS, you’ve offered a good assessment of the posts.
    There are a few other important points that I want to add here.
    1. The things that are pleasing to God are different from the things that are pleasing to men. Most women seem unaware of that distinction. If they want to be closer to God, that’s great, but it usually won’t affect their love life very much. If a woman wants to have a man then there is a different set of qualifications and requirements. There is some overlap between what God and men find attractive, especially concerning spiritual qualities, but the difference is basically that men put much more emphasis on the physical, men are more demanding of respect, and men are much less forgiving than God is.
    2. Another thing is that many women don’t know God, and so they expect all their needs to be met, including forgiveness, through a man who may very well not know God himself. Emotional neediness and spiritual immaturity/disobedience are big turn-offs.
    3. This brings us to the fact that too many people are focused on what they can get out of God and people, and totally neglect improving their relationship with God, which is what would make them more mature and capable of creating a satisfactory relationship with a spouse or partner.
    4. They are confused in thinking that they can attract a man if they don’t do what turns men off. Instead, they should do more of what turns men on, and less of what turns them off.
    5. All men have different tastes in women, so the ladies stumble in making a list of “all men prefer this”, or “all men don’t like that”.

  17. Don Quixote says:

    It’s only common sense that a man would want a debt free virgin as a wife. What man wants a debt that isn’t his? And what man wants a woman that has sexually bonded with someone else?

    Just concerning the “debt free” aspect of this article. Here is a quote from Charles Haddon Spurgeon on debt:

    “Scripture says, “Owe no man anything,” which does not mean pay your debts, but never have any to pay. My opinion is, that those who break this law ought to be turned out of the Christian church. Our laws are shamefully full of encouragement to credit;”

    John Weaver said: ‘What God orders, God pays for’. By this he means that all those churches with bid debts are kidding themselves. Their labours are in vain.

  18. @ Normal

    New to the blog and liking it’s focus on Biblical masculinity. On the topic of virgins, I understand that you are married? Was your wife a virgin? Were you? If so, where did you meet her and how? How do you recommend a man meet such a woman, and then apply game to achieve her? Links are fine, and your time is much appreciated.

    Check the top of my blog. There’s a categorized list of posts section and actionable steps to finding a wife. The actionable steps is a few important posts, while the categorized posts has about 20-30 of the most important including the actionable ones.

    My wife was a virgin (no vaginal, no oral), and I was sort of (no vaginal but oral, and prior to being baptized and committing my life to God fully).

    I found her through asking around through a bunch of my friends who knew my wife with some of the criteria I was looking for. She lived in a different state, so I exhausted all my options before I decided to message her.

    I did not use any ‘game techniques’ as stated on various blogs. Just focused on learning how to be a man and heavily on what it meant for the roles and responsibilities of Scripture. If you become a strong masculine leader, you don’t really need to play any games because women tend to already be attracted to you and will follow you.

  19. @ Wayne

    Good points.

    I always think back to 1 Cor 7 at times like these.

    1 Cor 7:32 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; 33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35 This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but [r]to promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord.

    Singles can focus on God solely, but husbands put focus on how they can please their wife and wives put focus on how they can please their husband.

    Surprise… if you want a husband in the first place, you actually have to do things that please men in order to attract one and not turn him off.

    It’s not rocket science. If you want to just please God and not men then don’t get married. But don’t whine when you’re just trying to please God, and you’re not attracting any men to you.

  20. Usury & Debt is its own, complex subject. That’s probably someplace the Christian Rejuvenation movement (first crack at a term) will need to spend a lot of time working through. You think Red Pilling on Sexuality is rough? Wait until you start cutting out Debt from people’s lives.

    As to the topic at hand, “Men prefer Women with no baggage”. That’s so blatantly true, only a female writer could possibly argue against it. That’s actually the core issue that the insane Woman was going on about. She *is* baggage, but she needs the Culture of Lies to not collapse before she locks down someone at the end of her fertility that she can leech resources off of.

    What you’re seeing play out is that, at the fundamental level, Women are utterly mercenary in their actions. They will always lack the physical ability to change the world around them, so their only options are the compliance of others & direct manipulation. This is why Women always end up giving you a massive amount of information about themselves, even when they seem to be talking about nothing. They’re actually rationalizing their desires, in real time. (The Hamster is just the effect when the wheel breaks. The rationalization cycle is constant.) In the context of the response pieces, “The Writer” actually needs the lies to stay in place for her to survive. Not “sticking the landing” isn’t just a bad life & cats for these Women, but the complete rejection of how they lived their lives. This is why the pieces are always predictable & almost nothing but projection for their own failures.

    The AF/BB effect is very real & never goes away, however, that’s like saying the desire to eat never goes away. It’s a part of the corrupted existence of Women, but it can be kept tamed. Just like any thing else, what really is going on is a Gluttony issue. But a Gluttony of Vanity. Every Women from age 16 to 30 can pretty much indulge in an unending stream of Vanity, which about 95% will fall into, thus we always see any attempt to move the Overton Window on the topics involved. “Sensible” & “logical” discussions aren’t possible, as those are exactly the ones that need to be attacked as “out of bounds”. (It’s an Ideological Framing approach, but it’s instinctual to most Women to prevent themselves from ever having to face the consequences for their actions.)

    I wish this was a logic issues, but it never is. It’s about Sin, Greed, Vanity and the rest of the 7 deadly Sins, then intra-group de-confliction approaches being abused to keep those sins as acceptable.

  21. Bee says:

    Deep Strength,

    “….. and I was sort of (no vaginal but oral, and prior to being baptized and committing my life to God fully).”

    I think you are waffling here and not demonstrating good leadership. You were either a virgin or you were not.

  22. Oh yeah, and the killshot on the original post. “Without Tattoos”. We’ve had that go around a few times. It’s something of an instinctive drive for a Woman to mark herself, when she’s a slut, as a form of advertisement & self-branding.

    The information has lead to some fascinating insights about the old witchcraft. The rituals spawn as a result of the corruption already present. It’s a highly twisted form of Vanity & Marketing. This is why the responses are always so nasty when the topic comes up. Women with tattoos are actually signaling to be “used & abused”, which they absolutely don’t want most Men to understand. They also don’t want the tattoos to represent the Scarlet Letter, even if it actually does. When you see tattoos on a Woman, you’ve got about 80% of the picture of her existence already.

  23. @ Bee

    I think you are waffling here and not demonstrating good leadership. You were either a virgin or you were not.

    Not trying to say I was a ‘born again virgin’ or anything. Simply giving details.

    My wife appreciated that I did not have vaginal, but would have preferred no oral too.

    That’s why I made the “sort of” assessment. She was happy for one and not the other.

  24. @ LG, all

    Oh yeah, and the killshot on the original post. “Without Tattoos”. We’ve had that go around a few times. It’s something of an instinctive drive for a Woman to mark herself, when she’s a slut, as a form of advertisement & self-branding.

    I can’t remember who it was in the manosphere, but they did a huge post on the correlation/causation between tattoos and risky behavior including promiscuity. Then they got doxxed and were forced to shut their blog down.

    Do you guys remember that?

  25. feeriker says:

    “Ladies, don’t be women of the world. Be the women God commands you, as His servants, to be in accordance with the Scriptures He has given you.”

    That, in a nutshell, is what Lori is saying. And it has “Christian” women in an uproar. That tells us all we need to know about them.

    “Do as these women read Scripture?”

    No, most of them don’t, churchians that they are. The few that do reject it out of hand because it doesn’t comport with modern sensibilities.

    Bottom line: most “Christian” women have deluded themselves into thinking that God is a big cosmic sugardaddy who would NEVER DREAM of making them do anything they don’t want to do. The Scriptures? Earthly lies written by power-hungry, abusive men in order to oppress women.

    The ultimate question: since “Christian” women today, like their worldly sisters, loathe the very idea of patriarchy, why would they want to serve the God of the Bible – the Ultimate Patriarch?

  26. @DS:

    It’s been a good number of years now, but, yeah, that dust up was incredibly insightful in the functional sense. It also opens up a world of moving all of the old “witchcraft” stuff into practical realities.

    What’s become clear to me is that most Christian history has been gaslit so incredibly hard that it’s convinced us previous Christians were superstitious buffoons that didn’t know what they were doing. The buffoons were the recently immediate generations of Christians, while the ones going back to the pre-1800s had a much better grasp of the problems that come with most things. Evil always attacks Good, and one of the easier attack vectors has been historical information.

    The evil in a person’s heart always wants Absolution. That’s what drives so much of these discussions. The instinct to want a magic wand waved to say, “you’re good! you’re awesome!”. With the exception of those at the very top, there are very few that truly relish the evil they do. Everyone wants the thrill, but no one wants the consequences (unless you’re so far gone that you’ve sided with the Devil). As a result, both Men & Women do different things to assuage the specific type of guilt that’s gnawing at them. (Hello, drugs, the old friend of many people. Ever wonder what people are running from?) For Women and with sexual sin, the “self-marking as instinctual response” is millennia old. Regardless of the culture, they’ll find a way to do it.

    The display aspect seems to be more about direct but controlled signaling. Most Women get tattoos that aren’t visible in normal work clothing, but they can display with more revealing clothing. This provides some level of “control” over the desires that are eating at them. It seems a slightly lesser version of “F*** away the pain”, something that tends to happen to actual rape victims, but it is mostly the effect that they are craving. That brief time, when they’re normally intoxicated in some matter, is enough to go through the time, expense, pain & trouble to get away from their current existence.

    Humans are driven by their desires, but they rationalize their desires so that they seem good. This makes Wisdom a super power in this Age.

  27. Ame says:

    Looking Glass
    Usury & Debt is its own, complex subject. That’s probably someplace the Christian Rejuvenation movement (first crack at a term) will need to spend a lot of time working through. You think Red Pilling on Sexuality is rough? Wait until you start cutting out Debt from people’s lives.

    in the late 90’s my first husband and i were very involved in a church (we were always very involved in church)that was wanting to build (churches always seem to want to build something) and was beginning a fund-raising campaign (i HATE fund raising campaigns in church). the book The Debt-Free Church: Experiencing Financial Freedom While Growing Your Ministry by Burgess and Berg had just come out, so i gave a copy to our pastor. he didn’t bother reading it for several years. by then, he’d already done his drama-whore thing to manipulate people to build a new building … oops, my bad, his fundraising promotion to further the kingdom of God. i know when he read it b/c he sent me a note and told me it was being put in the church’s library (which is what i had requested).

    several years later we began attending a different church. when we went to the new member’s class, someone asked the pastor about taking on debt to build, and his reply was that IF God’s people would tithe properly, there would be no need … but since they don’t, there is a need. therefore they take on debt to build.

    both these churches are large with lots of members … meaning they are influencing thousands of people under the premise they are “Teaching the Word of God” that debt is okay.

    when pastors believe debt is okay to build their grand landmarks … oops … buildings to reach people for the kingdom of God … that false foundational teaching bleeds into every other area – including taking on the ‘debt’ and ‘baggage’ of ‘nice christian girls/women’ … because, you know, Jesus paid our debt and tossed our sins as far as the east is from the west, so men should be like Jesus and forgive a girl’s/woman’s debt and toss her sins as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more.

  28. Ame says:

    Bottom line: most “Christian” women have deluded themselves into thinking that God is a big cosmic sugardaddy who would NEVER DREAM of making them do anything they don’t want to do.

    it’s more that they simply don’t think it applies to them, personally, or anyone they like or don’t want it to apply to.

  29. Ame says:

    if i remember correctly, you’re passing your first wedding anniversary? Happy Anniversary!

  30. Don Quixote says:

    Ame says:
    July 21, 2018 at 4:47 pm

    when pastors believe debt is okay to build their grand landmarks … oops … buildings to reach people for the kingdom of God … that false foundational teaching bleeds into every other area – including taking on the ‘debt’ and ‘baggage’ of ‘nice christian girls/women’ … because, you know, Jesus paid our debt and tossed our sins as far as the east is from the west, so men should be like Jesus and forgive a girl’s/woman’s debt and toss her sins as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more.

    Thanks for the testimony Ame. I have seen similar things.
    Both these topics [debt and female rebellion] are avoided like the plague in most churches. The reason is simple. Because the Clerics or Pastors are up-to their eyeballs in both debt and female rebellion. If someone in the pulpit calls out these sins there will be an uproar and a mutiny. The Pastor/Cleric will be removed from office for offending the idols.

    Q) How do you think this will go at the reckoning? When the Lord deals with His church?
    A) Depart from me ye that work lawlessness.

  31. Wayne says:

    To me, the most interesting aspect is why Lori’s post has had this big impact now. DS and Dalrock have been writing this stuff for years, but few people outside the Christian manosphere have taken it seriously. But once a WOMAN starts talking these points, people get a shot in the arm. Somehow, this puts a crack in the Overton window.
    LS wrote,

    “Humans are driven by their desires, but they rationalize their desires so that they seem good.”

    Isn’t this why so many Churchians call themselves Christians?

  32. Norman says:

    Deep Strength, I am obliged for your response and the links provided. The only correction I must make is that there is confusion about may name. It may appear “Normal,” but is actually “Norman”. No harm done!

    In regards to your response to me, is it generally true that virgin women are only attracted to virgin men, or is this just the case with your own wife? The reason I am asking this is because I have regrettably already lost my virginity to not one, but four women (in total, not simultaneously). I want to make sure that I have not blown the possibility of a quality future wife.

    Regardless of whether or not male virginity is important to a desirable woman, I do not think it matters if I continue to sleep with women, as the bridge has already been crossed. Does promiscuity matter in terms of my Christian faith, or are its merits exclusive to the female sex?

    Finally, how does someone “game” without playing games? I have always played games with women, and find them to be absolutely necessary. When I do not play games, women lose interest. I personally believe that a rich man can lie that he is a garbage man, and women will find the lie itself more attractive than the truth. If you could show me a link to an article about game without playing games, I would be very curious to read it. Thank you.

  33. Wayne says:

    In response to Norman…

    “Does promiscuity matter in terms of my Christian faith, or are its merits exclusive to the female sex?”

    I have the opinion that when males choose to abstain from sexual promiscuity, it mostly benefits the women you don’t screw (and their future husbands), because it reduces their opportunity to up their cock count.

    “Finally, how does someone “game” without playing games? I have always played games with women, and find them to be absolutely necessary.”

    Women naturally find game attractive, because it is tingle inducing, and men who don’t game lose the competition to men who do. Relying solely on game to create attraction has several pitfalls when establishing LTR’s though.
    DS covered this aspect in several past posts. The most recent one was this.
    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2018/04/23/the-failure-of-game-redux/

  34. @ Norman

    Oops, my bad.

    In regards to your response to me, is it generally true that virgin women are only attracted to virgin men, or is this just the case with your own wife? The reason I am asking this is because I have regrettably already lost my virginity to not one, but four women (in total, not simultaneously). I want to make sure that I have not blown the possibility of a quality future wife.

    Some Christian virgin women will overlook it, and some won’t. Pretty much just like some Christian men will overlook lack of virginity in women and some won’t.

    Regardless of whether or not male virginity is important to a desirable woman, I do not think it matters if I continue to sleep with women, as the bridge has already been crossed. Does promiscuity matter in terms of my Christian faith, or are its merits exclusive to the female sex?

    All Christians are to abstain from pre-marital sex until marriage. Sex is only holy in the context of marriage.

    I would suggest reading 1 and 2 Corinthians for more information about this.

    From this question I understand that maybe you’re a newer Christian? The “quality young virgins” will generally only want to be with mature, masculine Christian men, so make sure you are zealous about learning about the faith.

    Finally, how does someone “game” without playing games? I have always played games with women, and find them to be absolutely necessary. When I do not play games, women lose interest. I personally believe that a rich man can lie that he is a garbage man, and women will find the lie itself more attractive than the truth. If you could show me a link to an article about game without playing games, I would be very curious to read it. Thank you.

    Wayne already posted on this, but a larger question remains: what are you defining as “game.”

    That’s always the big question. Some things like teasing a woman are simply being ‘masculine’ but are thrown in the context of game. So are things like ‘negging’ or ‘dread’ or ‘narcissism’ or ‘psychopathy’ and things like that. So you’re going to have to define how you’re using it.

    When I say you don’t have to “play games” I mean that being a masculine leader, protector, and provider is sufficient. You don’t need any of the “superficial techniques” to raise your value” or anything like that.

  35. On the original topic itself, I was thinking about the structure of the discussion, and I think I found a framework to “explain” female behavior better, at least to the blue-pilled guy. However, I might have latched onto a much more easily digestible framework.

    Human physiology being what it is, Women are always inter-dependent upon their environment, while a Man is generally capable of being fully independent (though it isn’t most efficient). As a result, the female->male dynamic is always measured in terms of Parasitic or Symbiotic actions. Men are always looking for relationships with Symbiotic potential, which is really what the entire response cycle to Lori’s original is about.

    We can run through all of the logic & assumptions that are being spewed forth as Projection & Rationalization, but the instinctual driver is maintaining the “energy supply”. Beyond the applications, that’s the core. That’s Babylon talking: the Host must remain to be drained.

    Also, given what we know about modern understandings of sexual intercourse, the Host->Attached Organism framework goes a whole lot deeper. The PSALMs are simply the relativistic capacity of a Man to provide the totality of female desires, while what is sexually attractive to Men is signaling for symbiotic potential. (In a time-based manner. Sluts signaling they are sluts will get played for a night, which is all any Man is actually looking for them to be useful for him.) This also puts a framework around the Male approach of “once X line is crossed, a Man just leaves”. It’s literally just the personal point, for the Man, where the relationship is moved to permanently Parasitic, to his mind.

    I need to spend a lot more time with this framework, as it really has a strong predictive advantage to it.

  36. Lexet Blog says:

    I’m going to suggest that if you continue to fornicate, you aren’t part of Christ. Not only is it expressly forbidden, but it fornicators are condemned to hell.

    I urge you to bring this to your elders and seek accountability. Reflect on your motives for sex, as well as your repentance. Have you truly recognized Christ’s power to forgive your sins, so that you are no longer in bondage to them?

  37. OKRickety says:

    For those of you familiar with Sheila Wray Gregoire, she (and one of her daughters) went ballistic about Lori Alexander’s post, along with their ardent supporters.

  38. @ OKRickety

    Big surprise haha

  39. feeriker says:

    For those of you familiar with Sheila Wray Gregoire, she (and one of her daughters) went ballistic about Lori Alexander’s post, along with their ardent supporters.

    And in other earth-shattering news, the sun rose in the east this morning.

    What the “prevailing” reaction to Lori’s article confirms, above all else, is that world-worshiping churchians outnumber Christians by orders of magnitude. Certainly no surprise there, either.

  40. Ame says:

    Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    i googled over to gregorie’s place and read part of her reaction – i couldn’t stomach it so stopped. wowza. that is so out there it’s not even in the ballpark.

  41. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    It may be a little wicked of me, but I am amused by Sheila Gregoire’s discomfiture. She does seem to be prone to apoplexy. It does seem as if women have made a seller’s market of the sexual marketplace. They were hoping it would last forever. It never does. They are not going to take this too well.

  42. Stephanie says:

    “I don’t know how you can read Lori’s post and get that conclusion. It’s a huge straw man. But, again, no surprise. People are not actually reading the post clearly and are reacting in outrage with what they thought they read. Even Christians.”

    This is nothing new. For years Christian women have ridiculed and falsely accused Lori of writing what they thought they read, instead of actually reading her blog more carefully. She’s used to being hated for blogging these Truths.

    And she has a substantial crowd of naysayers, and so that is more than likely why this went viral so quickly (to answer Wayne’s question of “why now?”). A few years ago, when she went viral for another set of posts, I talked to her privately about how she handles this level of backlash and sheer hatred for her and her husband (and grown children). She said it doesn’t even bother her anymore, like water off a duck’s back to receive threats and attempts to get her husband fired, or destroy her book with false reviews etc. She handles persecution with so much grace that she’s able to continue writing and teaching women to inspire them to obey and please God – and it does work! Many women, including myself, have been so inspired by her and love communicating with her privately.

    That also may be why she gets so much backlash. Because she actually IS writing to women and giving guidelines and biblical standards we should be trying to achieve or teach our daughters to achieve. She’s literally doing the work God’s given her to do. She’s purposefully making a HUGE difference in younger women’s lives for the better, or course Satan would want to end that.

    When Dalrock (or others) write on this topic, it’s usually coming from a different place, and I haven’t seen them actually teaching women these things (the manosphere is not for women), but rather getting the info out for men to be aware of.

  43. Stephanie says:

    “i googled over to gregorie’s place and read part of her reaction – i couldn’t stomach it so stopped. wowza. that is so out there it’s not even in the ballpark.”

    Her posts on Vashti’s response was nutty as well. Its scary that she’s teaching so many women right now and influencing the culture for evil.

  44. @ Stephanie

    You did more than me. I didn’t bother clicking over to read as I knew it would be bad.

    That’s great to hear about Lori though. Thanks for sharing.

  45. Found this link over at the Boundless article:

    https://jawbonexl.wixsite.com/modernbabel/blog/an-open-letter-to-erica-wilkinson

    An overall excellent post, though minor quibbles here and there over the wording. Hopefully the site does not get deleted. I’m considering reposting it here, so it is preserved.

  46. Daniel says:

    Scripture does not include the concept of male virginity. If a man has fornicated, he has not “lost his virginity.” He has sinned, must repent, and should not unite with harlots any more.

  47. thedeti says:

    I can’t remember who it was in the manosphere, but they did a huge post on the correlation/causation between tattoos and risky behavior including promiscuity. Then they got doxxed and were forced to shut their blog down.

    Yes. The Karamazov Idea. He had a wordpress blog that he privatized and I can’t find it now.

  48. thedeti says:

    DS, Stephanie;

    Somehow, Lori’s detractors misread the statement

    –Godly men prefer virgins without tattoos and no debt

    as

    –Nonvirgins, women with tattoos, and women with debt are irredeemable, broken beyond repair, unsalvageable, ugly, awful, terrible, horrible, no good, cannot marry and should not marry

    No one anywhere said that.

    What is actually happening is that women resent that men have preferences, wants, needs, hopes, dreams, and desires for their lives, and that men are expressing those things. Because, you see, when men have and express those preferences, the feminine imperative is not being served.

    Because when men have and express those preferences, it means women have to change and satisfy said preferences, wants, needs, etc. if they want marriage to desirable, attractive men.

    It means women are being judged and evaluated to determine how they measure up to said preferences, wants, needs, etc. (and women hate hate hate hate being judged and evaluated.) And when men are evaluating women it means women are at risk of being rejected. (and women hate hate HATE being rejected.)

    Women: Men have every right to judge women on any criteria they see fit. Women have to either meet those criteria for the men they want, or lower their standards and accept lesser men.

    This is about men judging women and evaluating their fitness for relationships and marriage. Christ assesses women’s fitness for salvation and the Kingdom. But men assess women’s fitness for sex, marriage, and relationships.

  49. SnapperTrx says:

    How true! The bible never mentions men in the capacity of “being a virgin”, that designation is kept specifically for women!

  50. @ Daniel, Snapper

    Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

  51. @ deti

    Yup, that’s the gist of it.

    Women hate being judged, even by the standards of the Bible. The “don’t judge me” culture is strong in the churchians.

    Also, check your e-mail. I send you one.

  52. SnapperTrx says:

    Ah, I see! Hrm, interesting. I will need to do some research. I stand corrected!

  53. feeriker says:

    How true! The bible never mentions men in the capacity of “being a virgin”, that designation is kept specifically for women!

    Gregoirism is the religious philosophy that rejects God’s word on this because it is “unfair” to women.

  54. Daniel says:

    2 Corinthians 11:2 also uses “virgin” (parthenos) to describe Christians including men and women. “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    parthénos – properly, a virgin; a woman who has never had sexual relations; a female (virgin), beyond puberty but not yet married; (figuratively) believers when they are pure (chaste), i.e. faithful to Christ their heavenly Bridegroom (2 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:4). – Strong’s Concordance

    Men are “virgins” when they are spiritually faithful to Christ. But the literal meaning of the word “virgin” is female.

  55. And Boundless predictably deleted the Open letter to Erica Wilkenson.

  56. Ame says:

    Deti – i commend you for sticking in there. i couldn’t do it. she’s … twisted.

    i just do not understand the philosophy that many (most?) women have that ‘it’s okay for me, but it’s not okay for him.”

    if i want xyz, why should he not also want xyz? and more importantly … if there are things i want, why is it not okay for him to have things he wants? and why are his wants not as valuable as mine?

  57. Oscar says:

    @ thedeti

    Would you mid posting an excerpt here? I’d rather not trudge through that fever swamp.

  58. @ deti

    Well, at least you tried. Maybe at least one person will see that her arguments are incoherent.

  59. thedeti says:

    Here are some excerpts:
    _________

    I’d like to ask you a few things.

    Lori Alexander said:

    “Men prefer virgins with no tattoos and no debt for marriage”

    and you and her detractors heard

    “If you are a debt laden tatted up nonvirgin, you are a horrible person who deserves never ever ever to get married and you are a terrible Christian condemned to hell and a lonely solitary life.”

    And the prime reason you heard that was because you do not like men getting to make their own decisions about who they will date, have sex with, and marry.

    So I’d like to ask you:

    1) Do you have a problem with men having their own standards for the women they date, have sex with, and marry? Yes or no?

    2) If so, why? What problem do you have with that?

    3) Do you accept that men have the absolute right to decide what criteria they judge women on for marriage, relationships and sex? If not, why not?

    4) Do you accept that women don’t get to decide what criteria men use for marriage, relationships and sex? If you believe you have that right, what makes you believe this?

    5) Isn’t this really about women being angry that they don’t get to decide what preferences men have for the women they have sex with, date and marry? Isn’t this hysterical reaction just women raging that men, not they, get to decide this?

    I think this is about men judging and evaluating women, and women not being in control over how they are judged and evaluated.

    What do you think? Why? Please don’t deflect with “but men do bad stuff too” and “eeevil Dalrock” and “bad, bad men.” Please answer the questions: Can men have their own standards, or not? If not, why not?

    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 9:00 am
    .

    Well deti, most of the men who follow Dalrock are so broken and deeply perverse, they are not worthy of a Christian woman who is a virgin and debt free.

    In fact, now I just want to tell young women, get yourself some debt and tattoos, ASAP. That may well be an act of self defense that protects you from the attentions of some really dark and shallow men hiding their bitterness behind Christ’s name.

    As to women not being in control of how they are judged and evaluated, once again men who are into violent pornography and endless fantasies about destroying women, are not worthy to judge anyone.

    Extra credit stupid for trying to justify such arrogance and darkness with the Lord’s word.

    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 9:22 am
    .

    So, you went ahead with “but Dalrock and his commenters are bad” without answering the questions. And namecalling.

    Men are entitled to have whatever standards they want. It doesn’t matter if they’re bad men or not. And yes, those men might not be “worthy” to judge women, but they still do; and they, not you, determine who gets their commitment.

    You copped out. Bottom line – women don’t get to control how they are judged by men for marriage, relationships and sex. And women are very angry that they can’t control men in this regard.

    Next time, don’t cop out. Answer the questions directly without yelling “bad bad men” everywhere.

    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 9:35 am
    .

    “Men are entitled to have whatever standards they want. It doesn’t matter if they’re bad men or not. ”

    Think about what you’ve just said from a Christian perspective and ponder why those words just might be the very antithesis of our faith.

    No, men are not, “entitled to whatever standards they want.” Those are actually anti-christ words, lies that reveal the arrogance of men’s hearts.

    99% of the men I know would never sink down into such foolishness, so don’t falsely assume I am angry at “men.” I am angry at the deep seated perversions of a tiny handful of men, men who actually shame the truth and beauty of who and what men really are. Worse, they embarrass the word of our Lord and teach their brothers falsely.

    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 9:49 am
    .

    When it comes to marriage, men are entitled to judge women on any standards they want. They are also entitled to have preferences. Yes, men are entitled to any standards they want when selecting women for marriage.

    They are entitled to say “I prefer a virgin to a nonvirgin”. They are entitled to say “a woman who isn’t a virgin doesn’t meet my standards for being MY wife. She might meet some other man’s standards. But she does not meet mine, and therefore I will not marry her.”

    They are entitled to say “I prefer a woman without a lot of debt. She doesn’t meet MY standards. She might meet someone else’s standards, but she doesn’t meet mine.” They are entitled to say “I prefer a woman with no tattoos. She doesn’t meet MY standards. She might meet some other man’s standards, but not mine.”

    There is nothing at all wrong with that.

    Notice – NO ONE is saying a tatted up debt laden nonvirgin is not worthy of heaven. That’s for God to judge. NO ONE is saying a tatted up debt laden virgin is not worthy of marriage to anyone. That’s for each individual man to judge. Other men might judge her worthy.

    But whether she is worthy of marriage to me is for me, and me alone, to judge.

    I didn’t say you are angry at men. Stop distorting what I said. I said women are angry that they cannot control how men judge and evaluate them for marriage. Men have the absolute right to judge women’s fitness for marriage on any standards they see fit.

    I’m pretty sure most women here will say they have the absolute right to judge men’s fitness for marriage on any standards they see fit.

    End Part I.

  60. thedeti says:

    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 10:29 am
    .

    Well Deti, considering I’ve now been married for 31 years while most of the Dalrockians are bitter, perverse, and DIVORCED, I think my wisdom is going to trump theirs.

    Men are free to be attracted to whatever they like, however the first step of faith is to realize you are entitled to nothing. Not salvation, not an attractive woman, not even breath itself. Running about and SEXUALLY judging other women you don’t even know because one’s small and ugly heart needs to feel better about itself, is simply arrogant, unloving, and demonstrates ones own unworthiness and wounding.

    Lori is actually an aging woman, insecure, criticizing her sisters because she needs to hang onto some feelings of superiority, some sense that she is more virtuous and attractive than all the other women around her. That’s not wisdom, that’s not virtue, and that’s not placing your identity safely in Christ’s hands. That isn’t even good for Lori.

    And once again I say, men who are wallowing in violent pornography and reveling in bitterness towards women, have no business judging anyone else. Do such men have a right to proclaim they are only attracted to debt free virgins without tattoos? I suppose so, but not a one is worthy of such a woman and so they simply fuel their own bitterness, resentment, and sense of rejection.

    And flat out if I were a debt free virgin who found myself married to such a man, I’d divorce his useless behind. Such a man already has a Savior who suffered for his sins. No woman should ever believe she must try to stand in that gap as a martyr on his behalf.


    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 10:45 am
    .

    You’re just going to keep distorting everything I’ve said. you’re not responding to me; you’re responding to strawmen. But i’ll engage you one last time.

    Men are free to be attracted to whatever they like, however the first step of faith is to realize you are entitled to nothing.

    Correct; but irrelevant. Men are entitled to judge women for marriage on any standards they see fit.

    No one here is saying men are entitled to wives or marriage, or salvation, or anything else. You’ve erected a strawman here – I didn’t argue this point.

    Running about and SEXUALLY judging other women you don’t even know because one’s small and ugly heart…. is simply arrogant, unloving, and demonstrates ones own unworthiness and wounding.

    Your statement has nothing to do with anything. This is not about judging women we don’t know. This is not about SEXUALLY judging women. Whether men are wounded or “unworthy” has nothing to do with anything.

    This is about judging women’s fitness for marriage and the standards and preferences men have and are entitled to have. Judging women’s fitness for marriage has some to do with sex and more to do with practicality. Men are entitled to judge women’s sexual attractiveness and sexual fitness when it comes to marriage.

    Lori is actually an aging woman, insecure, criticizing her sisters because she needs to hang onto some feelings of superiority, some sense that she is more virtuous and attractive than all the other women around her. That’s not wisdom, that’s not virtue, and that’s not placing your identity safely in Christ’s hands. That isn’t even good for Lori.

    Irrelevant. She is not judging or criticizing anyone. She stated a truth we both know – men don’t want to wife up tatted up debt laden nonvirgins. And men are ENTITLED to say “I don’t want to wife up a tatted up debt laden nonvirgin”. Other men might be OK with it. But some, even most, men are not. And there is NOTHING unchristian about that.

    And once again I say, men who are wallowing in violent pornography and reveling in bitterness towards women, have no business judging anyone else.

    Irrelevant. Any man can judge any woman FOR MARRIAGE on any standards and preferences he wants. It doesn’t matter whether he is “bitter” or angry or sinful. (we are all sinful, there is none righteous, no not one). He can be all those things and still be entitled to judge a woman’s fitness for marriage to him. Period.

    Do such men have a right to proclaim they are only attracted to debt free virgins without tattoos? I suppose so, but not a one is worthy of such a woman and so they simply fuel their own bitterness, resentment, and sense of rejection.

    Again, whether they are ATTRACTED to debtfree tattoofree virgins is a given. The question is NOT whether such men are “worthy” of such women. The men’s righteousness or lack thereof is NOT the issue here. The question is whether they have a right to judge debt laden tatted up nonvirgins as unworthy of marriage TO THEM, and they absolutely have that right.

    Again: Men have a right to say “I do not want to wife up a tattedup debt laden nonvirgin because they don’t meet my standards.” It does not matter one bit whether such men are worthy of “better” women.

    And flat out if I were a debt free virgin who found myself married to such a man, I’d divorce his useless behind. Such a man already has a Savior who suffered for his sins. No woman should ever believe she must try to stand in that gap as a martyr on his behalf.

    Totally irrelevant to anything here. We are not discussing questions of salvation. No woman no matter how righteous or worthy has any business trying to “stand in the gap” for anyone. The most perfect woman’s righteousness is as filthy rags to God, and we both know it. No woman can “save” a man. We are NOT talking about salvation here. We are talking about men’s ability to judge women’s fitness for marriage.

    Yes or no: Do women have the absolute right to judge men’s fitness for marriage? If you answer “yes” to that question, you must also answer “yes” to the cognate, that men have the absolute right to judge women’s fitness for marriage.


    Like

    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 10:54 am
    .

    “Do women have the absolute right to judge men’s fitness for marriage? ”

    No. I asked God. God was right. I have been infinitely blessed by trusting God and not my own wisdom. It is not irrelevant at all, it is the path to joy, peace, and a good marriage.

    End Part II.

  61. thedeti says:

    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 10:53 am
    .

    Considering I’ve been married 22 years, that stacks up pretty well to your 31.

    Moreover, you’re getting confused again.

    You’re reading

    “Men are entitled to judge women’s fitness for marriage”

    as

    “Men are entitled to judge women’s fitness for salvation and heaven”

    I am saying the former. Neither I nor anyone else said the latter.

    Conversely, a woman’s salvation and acceptance of Christ does NOT mean she is fit for marriage. It does NOT mean she is fit for marriage to certain men. And it does NOT mean men are required to see only her salvation and ignore red flags/unfitness.

    Christ decides whether she’s fit for heaven. A man decides whether she’s fit for marriage to him.
    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 10:57 am
    .

    “Do women have the absolute right to judge men’s fitness for marriage? ”

    No. I asked God. God was right. I have been infinitely blessed by trusting God and not my own wisdom. It is not irrelevant at all, it is the path to joy, peace, and a good marriage.

    You asked God after determining whether you were attracted to your husband and whether he made a good fit FOR YOU. You would not have selected him were you not attracted to him and he were not a good fit FOR YOU, and you determined whether he was a good fit FOR YOU by applying your own individual criteria, whatever they were.

    You have the absolute right to judge an individual man’s fitness for marriage TO YOU.

    Every woman has the absolute right to judge an individual man’s fitness for marriage TO HER. Women do this every day – this man is acceptable, this one is not. This one might be acceptable; these three are not.

    You’re being disingenuous here.

    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:02 am
    .

    “I think my wisdom is going to trump theirs.”

    If you trusted God and not your own wisdom in selecting your husband for marriage; why should you trust your own wisdom in anything? God gives every believer a spirit of love, power and a sound mind. Why do you get to apply your “sound mind” to some things and not others?

    We are to be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves in all things. Too often, we emphasize the gentle over the wise.

    Our reliance on God’s provision and help doesn’t mean we get to be stupid and leave our wisdom at the marriage altar. Reliance on God doesn’t mean we get to mentally disengage.


    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:13 am
    .

    “God gives every believer a spirit of love, power and a sound mind. ”

    Those who advocate in favor of violent pornography, revenge fantasies against women, and perpetual bitterness as if it were scripturally sound, have no business speaking to me of “having a spirit of love, power and a sound mind. ”

    That is simply vulgar,crass, and hate filled. It is an antithesis to our faith, it is all wrong headed, it is exceedingly unhealthy.

    Don’t try to speak faith to me deti, because I look at those men and all I can see is how they want to rape 13 yr old Asian chicks, bang whores, and cut off women’s arms. That Is the truth of who and what the Dalrockians are and you would try to rational-lies it away, as if the condition of those hearts were irrelevant?

    I’m not buying what you’re selling deti. It is total bovine poo and it makes me feel sick to my stomach.


    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:19 am
    .

    And women who cannot or will not engage in an intellectually honest manner, who respond with intellectual dishonesty and disingenuousness, who intentionally distort, who argue with strawmen, and who name call, have no business speaking to me about sound minds, faith, or anything else.

    Good day.


    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:26 am
    .

    I could be all those things deti, but I would still not be half as broken and sad as the pseudo-men who have confused the joys of sexual intimacy with hatred, destruction and soul murder.

    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:32 am
    .

    Other men’s brokenness is irrelevant to the truths of

    “Men prefer debtfree tattoofree virgins”

    and “men have a right to judge women for marriage by any standards they see fit”

    and “women have a right to judge men by any standards they see fit”.

    You can call names all you want. It will not change those facts one iota.

    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:46 am
    .

    “Other men’s brokenness is irrelevant to the truths…”

    Our brokenness leads us to the Truth, deti. It is men’s brokenness that made Christ’s sacrifice necessary. “Jesus is the way and the Truth and the life.” When men are walled off by arrogance and pride, they cannot know Jesus. They cannot even see that they are broken! That is very relevant, it is actually the difference between spiritual life and spiritual death. It matters. I am not “calling names,” I am trying to wake the dead.

    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 11:51 am
    .

    Our brokenness leads us to the Truth, deti.

    You’re being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest here. You’re deflecting. This is not about salvation. This is about the very practical matters of men and women judging each other’s fitness for marriage. We are not required to lay our wisdom at the church door and go in and get married stupidly and blindly, and in fact God EXPECTS us to apply our wisdom and knowledge. Faith doesn’t mean mentally disengage. Faith doesn’t mean act stupidly and expecting God to get us out of it.

    It is men’s brokenness that made Christ’s sacrifice necessary. “Jesus is the way and the Truth and the life.”

    True, but irrelevant to the specific matter at hand.

    You’ve shown yourself incapable here of engaging me honestly and in good faith. You’re deflecting and arguing disingenuously, and arguing with strawmen.

    The issue here is whether men can judge women’s fitness for marriage to them. Not whether men and women are saved, worthy of salvation, how salvation occurs, or anything else. All true. But totally irrelevant to the specific matter at hand.


    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 12:09 pm
    .

    “The issue here is whether men can judge women’s fitness for marriage to them.”

    The answer to that is no, not when their hearts are hard. One cannot speak death over women, while misusing the Lord’s beautiful words, and then proclaiming oneself qualified to judge others. That is a form of spiritual, intellectual,and sexual dishonesty that renders one unworthy to judge others. It harms the name of Christ, it harms the men involved in it, and it harms women too.

    I am not defecting at all. I am flat out saying, such men are unworthy to judge anyone but themselves.


    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 12:31 pm
    .

    The answer to that is no, not when their hearts are hard.

    Yes, they can. Because they are judging ONE INDIVIDUAL woman’s fitness for marriage TO HIM.

    One cannot speak death over women while misusing the Lord’s beautiful words

    No one is doing that.

    then proclaiming oneself qualified to judge others.

    An individual man is qualified to judge an individual woman’s fitness for marriage to him.

    You’re still being disingenuous, dishonest, arguing with strawmen, and deflecting.

    Such men are unworthy to judge anyone but themselves.

    You are still talking about men judging women’s worthiness for heaven.

    I am not talking about that. I am talking about individual men judging whether individual women are fit for marriage to them. And men are worthy to make those judgments for themselves. It has nothing to do with salvation or hardness of heart. You are being disingenuous, dishonest and deflecting, and arguing with strawmen. You’re not capable of engaging this topic honestly and unemotionally.


    insanitybytes22 said:

    July 31, 2018 at 5:38 pm
    .

    I am not being disingenuous, dishonest and deflecting, nor am I being emotional or dishonest. I am simply informing you that you are wrong.


    thedeti said:

    July 31, 2018 at 10:23 pm
    .

    I’m absolutely correct. I’ve destroyed every one of your arguments. You have not once argued honestly or responded to me directly. You’ve instead chosen to tilt at windmills and knock down your straw men.

    You’ve lost this argument , and in spectacularly flaming fashion.


    insanitybytes22 said:

    August 1, 2018 at 6:33 am
    .

    Deti, I could really care less about “winning arguments.” I’d cheerfully lose them all, if I could just see some so called red pill “Christians,” turn to the Lord and embrace life and life abundant, rather then the brokenness and arrogance of men.

    thedeti said:

    August 1, 2018 at 8:18 am
    .

    The point is, you haven’t shown in any way that men cannot have preferences and standards for women when it comes to marriage. You haven’t shown in any way that men cannot judge women for marriage. They absolutely can, and they MUST.

    It has nothing to do with salvation. It has everything to do with evaluating and judging a woman’s fitness for marriage.


    Like

    thedeti said:

    August 1, 2018 at 8:19 am
    .

    You also didn’t argue honestly or respond directly. You responded hysterically and emotionally, argued with strawmen of your own making, and without thinking or logic or even sound application of theological doctrine.

    FIN

  62. thedeti says:

    I think your site dumped the thread from insanity’s.

  63. @ deti

    I approved it. Don’t know what happened though.

  64. thedeti says:

    I see it. Never mind.

  65. Oscar says:

    @ deti

    Thanks. The blogger obviously named herself accurately. A woman (for example, the blogger) has the right to judge whether or not a man is fit to marry her, but a man has no right to judge whether or not a woman is fit to marry him.

    Good to know.

    Like DS said, maybe some woman will see that hysteria for what it is. Good work.

  66. thedeti says:

    Oscar

    thanks. No one ever said that men were judging women’s salvation or fitness for heaven or whether God loves them or even whether they’re fit for marriage to other men.

    All that was being said was that men prefer debt free tattooless virgins; and that each individual man can judge individual women on their fitness for marriage to him. That’s all.

    But Insanity still doesn’t get it. Here’s her latest comment:

    So true, Colorstorm. Context is everything. So is some consistency! One simply cannot say, “It has nothing to do with salvation. Irrelevant, irrelevant irrelevant,” and then in the next breath proceed to accuse one of debating, “without thinking or logic or even sound application of theological doctrine.”

    This is too profound for most red pills to grasp, but theological doctrine actually says, “as you judge, so shall you be judged as you measure, so shall you be measured..”

    It isn’t about debt, tats, or what men find attractive. It is about how we present the Lord, what we teach others about Him, how we proceed to love one another.

    There is absolutely no “sound application of theological doctrine,” that says your faith is dependent on how well you meet the expectations and attractiveness signals coming from the opposite sex. Lori has just done yet another post calling women entitled and unclean. That’s hurtful. She is talking about her Christian sisters. Never mind them however, what she’s really saying is that the blood of Jesus is not powerful enough to wash away some sins. Wrong!

    It is the false representation of Who Jesus is and what He offers us that really ticks me off.

    Also, in some places in the ME, the Christians actually bear tattoos, crosses or the N for Nazarene or small fish. You aren’t getting into church or a bible study without that tat, because nobody knows who you really are. They are not “unclean,” they are often risking their lives just to lift up the name of the Lord in dark part of the world.

    The debate is not about the state of a woman’s faith. And then after complaining about context, she actually pulls out the single most misinterpreted scripture in the entire bible: “Judge not lest ye be judged….” Really. So we’re not to judge. mmmmmmkay.

    This woman does not want to debate legitimate points. She tilts at windmills, fights strawmen, distorts, obfuscates, lies, gets hysterical, reacts hyperemotionally, and ignores the very real points being made so she can call names and cast aspersions. I won’t waste more time there.

  67. SnapperTrx says:

    It sounds like she doesn’t have the ability to separate the physical/spiritual. I see plenty of people, Christians, who do this. They think every solution of the spiritual can be applied to the physical, so that, and this is extreme, but its what I liken it to, if you just trust in the Lord then you dont need to breathe because, through God, all things are possible. Yes, yes, all things ARE possible through God and God could keep you alive without having to breathe if He so chose too, but by design that’s not how the physical body in the physical realm works! You need to breathe, you need to eat, you need to use the toilet. In the same way men are attracted to the physical form of women because God designed them that way, so, yes, they DO judge women based on their pleasurable, physical appearance. Being a Christian or spiritual or close to God does not change this. In fact, the idea that it does goes against Gods design of men! If men dont like tatted up, debt laden whores then, guess what, there’s nothing spiritually wrong with that because it has little or nothing to do with spiritual matters beyond regarding the advice of the word to avoid such women!

    I’ve read about IB before in other threads, and I’ve seen a bit of her handy work. She’s seems like a screwball.

  68. Oscar says:

    deti,

    But Insanity still doesn’t get it.

    I doubt that. For example, she states “Context is everything. So is some consistency!” So, she demands context and consistency from others, yet she ignores the context of the debate (as you stated, “the debate is not about the state of a woman’s faith”), and she refuses to apply the rules consistently to both sexes.

    This doesn’t look like a case of ignorance to me. It looks like very deliberate obfuscation.

    This woman does not want to debate legitimate points. She tilts at windmills, fights strawmen, distorts, obfuscates, lies, gets hysterical, reacts hyperemotionally, and ignores the very real points being made so she can call names and cast aspersions.

    It’s what she always does, everywhere she goes, and under every pseudonym she gives herself (consistency at last!). That’s why I think it’s deliberate.

    A person who wants to understand another’s point doesn’t make straw man arguments. Neither does he/she constantly deflect from the main point as this blogger does. I seriously doubt that’s accidental.

  69. The Hamster submits to no Logic.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s