How attraction works and common misconceptions

I or others may have discussed this a while ago, but I don’t recall discussing it in post format. The numbering scale is the typically discussed format (1-10), but it really doesn’t indicate how it works in real life.

1. Attraction distributions

For example’s sake, let’s start out with your average white man who is maybe 2o lbs overweight, average face, dresses in baggy clothes, shaves once a week, has good hygiene otherwise, doesn’t style his hair, is part of a Church but doesn’t really participate much, sees women he likes but takes a few weeks or month to work up the courage to ask her out, and traits like these.

Numerically, this dude is probably a “5” or so if you were basing the fact that he is your average male, but technically he’s below average in the eyes of most women at like a “3.”

If you recall, the OKCupid observations that women found about 80% of men unattractive. Obesity in general has made the left end of the scale (the 1-5 part of the 1-10 scale) higher in weight so you have a skew in distribution.

Source.

For attraction, women have a right skewed attraction curve where there is a smaller percentage of men who are attractive in that right tail while the majority tend to sit on the right side in the unattractive zone.

2. How attraction works

Generally speaking, a percentile based format best describes one’s attraction at any particular one time.

Let say if this average dude, who is probably around a “3” in the eyes of women, asked out 100 women who were evenly distributed from very unattractive (“1”) to very attractive (“10”) would get maybe a 5% date rate.

Most of these women who would accept would be around his attraction in the 1-3ish range. Hypergamy plays a factor and also the fact that women’s expectations can be far above their own objective attractiveness.

So this average dude has probably a 5% date rate, and most if not all of that 5% skews to the unattractive women.

3. How modifications in one’s looks, status, leadership, and other traits affect attraction

Let’s say this average dude with 5% date rate of mostly unattractive women starts to work out and starts a diet to lose weight. This takes place over the course of 6-9 months, but he sheds all 20 lbs of fat and gains about 10 lbs of muscle.

By simply shedding 20 lbs of fat and gaining 10 lbs of muscle, this guy probably moves up from a “3” in women’s eyes to a 4 and maybe 5 in some eyes. His date rate will probably increase from about 5% to maybe 10%. In effect, doubling his date rate. If he asked the 100 women evenly distributed, it will still mostly be 1-3s but maybe a 4 or 5.

Now, let’s say over the course of another month or two, our average guy gets advice from his male or female friends about style and how that fits with him. Gets some nice fitting clothes, starts to style his hair, and groom well. By doing this, his success rate may bump another 5% of so.

So now his success rate of asking 100 women ranging from very unattractive to very attractive is about 15%. Most of them are still probably in the 1-3 range, but there are a few in the 4-5 range now and perhaps an occasional 6.

Now, lets say this man gets serious with his faith. He starts evangelizing when the chance comes up with his friends. He has diligently studied the Scriptures and gotten involved with loving and serving others in the Church. He has taken up a leadership role in a Bible study. By doing this, he has become much more secure and confident who he is in Christ and been developing leadership skills. By doing this, his success rate jumps up another 5%.

So now his success rate of asking 100 women ranging from very unattractive to very attractive is about 20%. Most of them are still probably in the 1-3 range, but there are a some in the 4-5 range now and maybe a couple 6s and an occasional 7.

Now, let’s say this man is pretty serious about relationships. He’s studied the Scriptural marital roles and responsibilities. He also knows he needs to learn how to lead a relationship. He works on his emotional IQ, and his communication skills to lead conversations and not be awkward. He works on his eye contact, not fidgeting, and teasing women. By doing this, his success rate jumps up another 5%.

So now his success rate of asking 100 women ranging from very unattractive to very attractive is about 20%. Most of them are still probably in the 1-3 range, but there are a bunch in the 4-5 range, some, few 6s, and an couple 7s. Still no 8s though.

4. Other thoughts and misconceptions on traits or characteristics that affect attractiveness

  • It must be noted that some things can be strong disqualifiers. If our average man had extremely poor hygiene and smelled extremely bad, his success rate could literally drop to 0%. Things like really bad acne or skin conditions can be strong disqualifiers but that is not always the case. It could just decrease certain percentages by 1% or 5% or 10% or more depending on how bad things are.
  • Will the increases in say working out and losing weight, style, developing leadership skills, and developing social skills and not being awkward result always in 5% increases? No, of course not. This is simply an example. Initially, it may take 10 lbs of lost weight to increase 1% date rate, but as you start looking better and better it may take 7 lbs then 4 lbs of lost weight to gain another 1% each.
  • Let’s note that this example guy only gained about 10 lbs of muscle. If he had gained 30 lbs of muscle, he might have jumped another 5-10% because doing from a “toned” appearance to a “muscular appearance” will typically drastically increase success rate, especially with stylish clothes and hair. First impressions do play a big role.
  • If a man was black, asian, hispanic, indian, or another race, his success rate compared to being white will drop accordingly to some percentage. It is harder for minorities to date than white. To speculate, it could drop say 5% for black and hispanic and maybe 10% for asian and indian. Thus, minority races typically have to compensate by strongly developing other traits and accept they’re at a disadvantage.
  • This is the same with height. The taller you are the easier it will be (to some extent). Very short men have a very bad disadvantage.
  • Additionally, if our average man is an expert or really good at music and occasionally plays on his Church’s worship team, you can bet that his success rate would probably jump some percentage points because of local status/fame inside his own Church. The women outside the Church might not know about this, but this certain skill which is exposed to a particular population would give increased success rate.
  • Generally speaking, very few men have >40-50% success rate when asking out women unless they are extremely attractive (8-9+ male) or are actually famous. Contrary to popular belief, some women just don’t like some attractive men for one reason for another so actual success rates don’t actually go up anywhere near 60-100%, except if a random celebrity asks out a bunch of random women on a date. Maybe then you’d get extremely high date rates.

There’s more that go into it than this, but these are a solid overview of how other things may affect attractiveness and date rate.

5. Relationships

Of course, none of this actually takes into account many of the different things that it takes to be successful in relationships.

Sustaining relationships tend to be based more on disqualifiers and character more than attractiveness. Since we’ve already assumed we are attractive (for the most part) the other party and they’ve accepted us as someone who they potentially think are attractive enough to marry, then the relationship is about mainly character and understanding Biblical marital roles and responsibilities.

How can a Christian man show that he is one who is going to love her, honor her, and help her to become more like Christ in the marriage? How can a Christian wife show her that she is going to submit to him, respect him, be affectionate, and be her husband’s helper in marriage? This is what the relationship portion is like leading toward engagement and marriage, as God’s ideal for us in marriage is that we adhere to His standards.

Often it is the case that relationships tend to expose our character flaws or find out where we may not be a good fit for our spouse. If, for example, a woman is looking to do missionary work overseas and you’re called to minister here at your Church, this could be a place where there is not a proper fit.

On the other hand, if our spouse responds more with anger or bitterness and lacks respect or wanting to learn how to please us or understand us, we understand that they may be a poor choice because they’re walking away from the fruits of the Spirit and Biblical marital roles and responsibilities and choosing their own self interest and selfishness.

Overall, this is not some rocket science. Depending where you are in male attractiveness, you need to look at what things may increase your percentage rates accordingly and try to figure out and minimize or remove any disqualifiers.

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61 Responses to How attraction works and common misconceptions

  1. Novaseeker says:

    This is correct — improvements tend to be incremental rather than fundamental. However, as you note, incremental improvements are meaningful to attraction outcomes — 20-25% hit rate is much better than 5%.

    To get to the 40-50%+ (including very attractive women in the mix) you have to be very above average in terms of physical (height/musculature/facial handsomeness), be very charming/personable/”socially dominant” and have your act together in brass tacks things (excellent career, excellent trajectory). Guys in that category have a higher hit rate with women who are in the 5-6 range (can be 70%+), but they tend to want women who are 7.5+, and so the hit rate drops.

  2. @ Novaseeker

    This is correct — improvements tend to be incremental rather than fundamental. However, as you note, incremental improvements are meaningful to attraction outcomes — 20-25% hit rate is much better than 5%.

    I think that any average man who works on all facets can probably get themselves into the 15-20% hit range. This man is probably around a 5-6 himself. Maybe 7. The majority of those women in the 15-20% hit range are going to be skewed toward 1-5.

    The main issue is that will these men hold out for the occasional 6 and rare 7 that go out with him? From what we’ve seen in reality, it’s often the case that many men and women won’t accept being with anyone less than 5. But they are not attractive enough themselves to garner the attention of those who they think are attractive.

    To get to the 40-50%+ (including very attractive women in the mix) you have to be very above average in terms of physical (height/musculature/facial handsomeness), be very charming/personable/”socially dominant” and have your act together in brass tacks things (excellent career, excellent trajectory). Guys in that category have a higher hit rate with women who are in the 5-6 range (can be 70%+), but they tend to want women who are 7.5+, and so the hit rate drops.

    Exactly. Tim Tebow is a good example of a Christian man who would probably get upwards for 75%+ yes-to-a-date rate. Famous, tall, muscular, handsome, leader of men, and oh… and don’t forget Christian.

    He himself held out for another famous beautiful (8-9+) Christian… although maybe perhaps normal Christian based on her various stances on subjects. That has yet to be determined. Wishing him the best.

  3. theasdgamer says:

    Sustaining relationships tend to be based more on disqualifiers and character more than attractiveness.

    Sure, if you don’t want sex from your wife–she’s just your roommate. From what I have seen in 30+ years of marriage, you have to continually flirt with your wife and be able to handle the various tests that she throws at you (comfort, drama, and fitness). You also have to enforce your boundaries in a controlled (preferably humorous) way. But what do I know, I’ve only been married over three decades and my wife is still in love with me.

  4. theasdgamer says:

    I note that you all have overlooked the key attribute that women drool over–masculinity. A man who has an iron frame and enforces his boundaries will be attractive to women. Being glib and charming, helps, of course, but it isn’t essential.

  5. @ asdgamer

    I note that you all have overlooked the key attribute that women drool over–masculinity. A man who has an iron frame and enforces his boundaries will be attractive to women. Being glib and charming, helps, of course, but it isn’t essential.

    It’s examples. I didn’t cover other things like charisma or even height which play big roles.

    Other posts have covered what is attractive to women.

    Sure, if you don’t want sex from your wife–she’s just your roommate. From what I have seen in 30+ years of marriage, you have to continually flirt with your wife and be able to handle the various tests that she throws at you (comfort, drama, and fitness). You also have to enforce your boundaries in a controlled (preferably humorous) way. But what do I know, I’ve only been married over three decades and my wife is still in love with me.

    You’re missing the point here.

    Sustaining the relationship (after you’ve already gotten the date) is mainly about disqualifiers and character. In other words, once you’re in a relationship, attraction is implied as it was in the beginning (otherwise they wouldn’t have gone on a date with you).

    If you do something to sabotage your attractiveness, then yes you can get the old “I love you but I’m not in love with you.”

    But that’s a topic that I didn’t discuss because I can’t discuss everything or this post is going to be a book. Just laying out the basics of how getting a date and into a relationship work.

  6. seventiesjason says:

    What does this conplex chart and metrics from (chuckle) Ok Cupid teach us??? Looks only matter…………………………………even to Chritian women

    So guys just shower…..hit the gym……you’ll be dating still 1-3 in the looks range but ist okay…….looks don’t matter, but they do…but they don’t….but they do, depnding on your height, race, skin condition, but masuclinity is the only thing that you need….butr we’ll define that in broad terms like “confidence” but if you have muscles and do “guy things” that isn’t masculinity, it’s hypermasculinity and its aping…..but study the Bible and become Christian, and you’ll meet more attractive women (actually in church……the women are more like the guys, pretty plain average looking to below average looking, like most of the men)

    Come on DS…..this is Game and “confidence” again repackaged. Won’t help any young man.

    God has blessed you in this area or he hasn’t

    ENd game

  7. seventiesjason says:

    and it still makes the presumption that “women are ready enough, attractivce eough, good, all set, ready, and just need worthy men pursuing them”

  8. seventiesjason says:

    Tim Tebow ONLY dates models, and lived with the previous girlfriend. He also dates NON Christians, VERY frequently. He’s about as lukewarm Christian as they come. He is suddenly “Christian” when he appears on the Joni Lamb / Daystar Network and won’t profess Christ in certain venues

  9. theasdgamer says:

    What kind of nonsense is this? Game helps young men. In fact, there’s a whole book of the Bible devoted to it.

    I’m about a 5 in looks (I’m old, bald, and overweight) and two women asked me to dance last Sat. night…a 30ish 6 and a 25ish 7. Both were flirty and wanted to know my name and wanted hugs after our dances. Both recognized me from before (months in one case and years in the other) but I didn’t recognize them. There was another 7 who was hovering near where I was standing looking at me out of the corner of her eye after I had danced with her once and chatted with her briefly. But if you want to believe that looks matter, don’t let me stop you.

    Confidence is a masculine attribute that women like. If you’re old, but show that you have energy and stamina (you retain strength and masculinity), age won’t be a hindrance.

    God created masculinity and we are to celebrate it.

  10. theasdgamer says:

    Do you know that there’s a book in the Bible that never mentions God? If God comes up naturally in the context of a convo, you talk about Him. Otherwise, you don’t. You don’t go to bars preaching unless God has definitely sent you there for that purposed. Don’t assume that you are to preach in bars or other venues otherwise. That’s presumptuous.

  11. theasdgamer says:

    Ok, you’re talking about vetting a girl. That kind of makes sense. But no matter what, you have to be able to train a girl, even if she already has had some proper training. There’s a lot of wisdom in Shakespeare’s “The Taming of the Shrew.”

    You shouldn’t assume that attraction on the first date necessarily carries over to the second. A man has to keep showing his value from time to time and he has to flirt with girls from time to time. And he has to show his ability to lead always. And give her comfort when needed, etc.

    I don’t necessarily believe what women say that they like in men because I see divergence from that when I’m out.

  12. Bruce says:

    As far as the success-rate-asking-women-out metric , I thought Cane had proven that women basically select men. Even if it’s not aggressive pursuit, they indicate when they are interested in you – and you don’t want to pursue them if this is not the case.
    This is how it happened for me – my wife clearly picked me (at 18 y.o.) and FWIW, 25 years later is very much into me – wants to have as many of my babies as possible, etc, wants intimacy, love, likes to serve, etc.
    Be the best you, and only go after a girl that shows clear interest in you – isn’t that good advice?

  13. seventiesjason says:

    Yeah……it is Bruce……problem lies within for a large swath of Christian men……young, older…..and now like me…..just old (cusp of 50)

    Women never showed a “clear interest” in myself, and a large swath of Christian men. Ie they were not good looking enough, didn’t lead a ministry big enough, worked out too much, didn’t work out enough…….didn’t get the right job, were not invited to that jr high locker room discussion where the rules were set down,

    Being the best you only works for men who had something to begin with

    The solution for the other men is to: go to the gym, volunteer more, get better social skills….and if it doesn’t work out “don’t worry, there is no marriage in heaven, Jesus loves you exactly as you come to Him”

    There is an underhanded feeling of being “cheated” out of something, yet at the same time there is nowhere to turn………I wish I could put a finger on it, or covey it in a way that people could understand…………

    It doesn’t matter if you feed 5,000, love Jesus, be involved with the church or are just average looking……………it still isn’t good enough for 99% of the women in church, and the men who did find someone never had a problem dating to begin with…..

    The solution I have is controversial……….and sadly, part of it involves leaving church.

  14. seventiesjason says:

    theas…..if you are old, bald, and overweight

    you are not “about a 5″ in looks.

    I am in decent shape, 6’4” slender with blue eyes and I am about a 3 on the scale if we go by “ok cupid” and “what women think” which we in the man-o-sphere claim we “never listen to” but then cater excatly to what they want and expect

  15. seventiesjason says:

    theadgamer…

    if you are bald, overweight, and old……..you are not “about a five on the looks scale”

    I am in decent shape, slender 6’3″, blue eyed and I am considered ugly. Problem with scales like this………..men like you say looks don’t matter, then you rate yourself,

  16. Bruce says:

    @ seventiesjason
    At this point it doesn’t matter for me but it does for my sons. I guess I would say to them that if the girl doesn’t show a clear interest in them, it will probably end badly (and it might even if she does, but if she doesn’t show interest that’s a clear indication not to even try).

  17. @ Bruce

    As far as the success-rate-asking-women-out metric , I thought Cane had proven that women basically select men. Even if it’s not aggressive pursuit, they indicate when they are interested in you – and you don’t want to pursue them if this is not the case.

    Look at the criteria of the post again:

    “asked out 100 women who were evenly distributed from very unattractive (“1”) to very attractive”

    If you’re indiscriminately asking women out, the success rate is going to be much lower and skewed toward your own attraction range or lower (due to hypergamy).

    This is a hypothetical example to show the full nature of attraction factors on a spectrum of women, not just ones who are interested in you.

    Be the best you, and only go after a girl that shows clear interest in you – isn’t that good advice?

    I agree with your overall point.

    If you watch for indicators of interest and only ask out women who seem to be interested in you, you can get yourself at least to 50-75%+ success rate for many men.

  18. @ seventiesjason

    Self ratings are notoriously inaccurate. Probably asd and yourself included.

    You’ve said before you face is ugly and holding you back (e.g. a moderate or major disqualifer as mentioned in the post). That could be the case. It could also be the case that you’re overestimating that, which I think most people at Dalrock who used to visit your blog indicated and that the issue(s) are elsewhere.

    If you want an actual rating you’d have to ask trusted male or female friends who are objective and not afraid to tell the truth.

    Also, I’ve seen you mention before that you’re an avid hiker. In reference to what we’ve been talking about here, that itself does not make you attractive. It’s muscles for the most part. If you’re 6’3″ and physically active but slender: positive for height but negative for being slender.

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2018/12/15/womens-preferences-for-body-type/

    The effect is obvious for “built” and “brawny” versus slender and even chubby.

  19. theasdgamer says:

    The point was not because I believe that men’s looks matter, but because you do. So I set up a situation to disprove your beliefs about men’s looks.

    And DS is helping my case by saying that I overrate myself. Because if looks matter and my “beauty” rating is 3, then why are a 6 and a 7 throwing themselves at me? Women will typically only throw themselves at men who are 3 levels more attractive than they are. (By “male attractiveness”, I mean a masculine demeanor.)

    My explanation of why these women threw themselves at me isn’t based on looks, but on how I carry myself and interact with people. Maybe you could learn something from me.

    Oh, and I stand 5’9″ tall.

  20. @ seventiesjason

    I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m going to say it anyway.

    In my opinion, your biggest issue is not your looks. It’s mainly a lack of contentment in your Christian walk.

    Personally, it was only really once I got to the point that I was fine being single the rest of my life (content in serving Jesus, even if I didn’t meet any potential spouses) that I was able to lay aside any fear, worries, bitterness or anger in my attitude. I fully accepted that God does not promise us a spouse.

    Women can tell if you’re bitter or resentful, and really woman (or man for that matter) wants to be around it. Remember, women are looking for a man they can follow. They’re not going to want to follow someone who is negative or bitter about their situation in life. If you’ve ever had friends or family members that were depressed and you tried to help them, it’s pretty much the same thing. You want the best for them, but they’re so negative and down on themselves that it’s just hard to be around.

    Of course, you’re free to disagree, and I could be wrong. But that is the way you’ve been coming off here and Dalrock’s from what I’ve seen. I think I’ve stated this in some way, another time but maybe not explained my personal example with it.

    This is not to say that men and women who are fully content in being single will suddenly get women swarming them or things like that, but it does remove a big disqualifier.

  21. theasdgamer says:

    I actually relied on what another guy rated me as. Mrs. Gamer rates me equivalent to Liam Neeson. Kind of average. Definitely no Tom Cruise or Sean Connery. Not that any of that matters, lol.

  22. theasdgamer says:

    @DS

    You know, my infield experiences with women present important data which will be ignored by the very men who most need that data. “This does not compute” will be the output from their brains when they read my comments. Maybe they will even think that I am lying. The reason they cannot accept my data is because of their investment in equalism–that men and women are the same when it comes to what is sexually attractive to them. For men, we know that looks are the main thing. So it must be the same for women, because equalism. So men will need to be persuaded to abandon equalism if they are to accept the Red Pill.

  23. AngloSaxon says:

    That also explains why we see the YouGoGirl phenomenon. All these women doing the things which women desire in men such as having careers, getting educated. So many women have become doctors/lawyers/vets/accountants etc to become “empowered” and assumed men would still be attracted to them. Thanks to equalism they assumed that what men want from women is identical to what women want from men when in reality looks are what matter most.

  24. @ asd

    That’s one reason for sure. Women do not have the same response to looks that men do. Most men don’t meet that standard via the OKCupid observations, but still most men get married. That’s where other traits like masculinity, leadership, power, status, money, charisma, and things like that come into play. Work with the things you can change.

    There is the simple fact that if you’re in the top 1% of men (or perhaps it’s more like top .01% in this case) in looks you’re basically have it pretty easy. Example:

    Some men see this and just give up, but what works for 1% of people is not standard. That’s like comparing a regular job to the CEO of some company. Of course the CEO of a company is in a position that not many people are in and has the benefits to go with it.

  25. theasdgamer says:

    @DS

    I’m sure that if I did online dating, I wouldn’t get the same response that I get in person. There’s a whole social context involved in a club or church or a community event that you don’t get with a picture.

    CEOs and professors are contextual alphas. They likely wouldn’t do well outside those contexts. Bill Gates didn’t marry or date a beautiful woman, unlike David Spade or Kevin Sorbo.

    Otoh, the guy who is the life of the party sort of person will likely do well in any context because he attracts attention and shows his status wherever he goes. That’s what I am aiming for. I’m taking improv to help with that. This works no matter whether you have money or not.

  26. seventiesjason says:

    I was at a silly “leadership” seminar today for property managers that my supervisor made me go to down in Novato (Marin County). It cost me a day away from the property, and cost my property management company over $1,000.00 to send me. I would have benefitted more from actual training with a real HVACC trainer to teach me to read pnuematic pressure and give me some basics on the heating and cooling system on the roof so I could at least troubleshoot or give feedback to the callcenter when the AC goes down at 2PM on a Thurday in August and its over 100 degrees outside…..

    Yes, as managers in “property” be it civic, commercial, retail, or residential……….we have to be (cough) leaders. The morning dealt with being a “team player” and all these “tools” leasership requires……..listening, being pro-active, handling troublesome clients, tennants, or renter. Giving employees incentives to “go above and beyond” and rewards, and making work “fun”

    We then broke into personality types……..and of course being an effectivce “leader” you have to be an extrovert and being like me an introvert is something “I have to work on” to “be effective and grow confidence and the team”

    I finally got enough courage to say “I am running a property, not catering to a teams wants, needs, and not am I going to give a penny to everyone who cries…….they have protections by law, and by my company polices. They have incentives through benefits, profit sharing, a liberal flex time and vacation plan (my company gives most a month off a year to every full time employee). Why do I have to encourage and guide someone to do what is required by their job description?”

    The trainer stated that I had a major “lack” in confidence, and probably needed some additional training. He suggested videos by one David DeAngelo (whom I have met) to help me become a “real” leader and have the “confidence” to lead a team.

    I, holding in some serious rage, cleared my throat and stated “There is a waiting list to get into my building for commercial space. I have stopped the hemorraging of monies through overtime, cost overrruns, and I have stabilized the property finances and got an excellent rating from my supervisor. Please explain this lack of confidence I have?”

    He said “do you have friends? Are you popular? Are you married?”
    I said nothing, and he continued all “cocky funny” and said “yeah, so, hey…lets talk after the class, you sound like you have a few skills, but real leadership means being the man, or woman who people respect. Sure, you have followers who do the job…….I mean, even Hitler and Stalin had followers…”

    I sat quietly for the rest of the day……..even in work, something I do well because it is all I have ever had, and something I did and exceeded at in any job (being a janitor, working retail, at IBM, as a bartender in grad school…….) and I still have people putting me down for doing a solid job “ummmm yeah, you are doing the job…..good rating for you…but yeah, still not good enough…you’re not this. You’re not that…….”

    My whole life I have had just about everyone telling me to improve, but when I ask how….or strive…I am then “beyond the scope of the conversation” and still shut out.

    What else do I have to do? I am now even failing at being a Christian….something I was told that was for “everybody”

    Obviously not.

    A man keeps his word. Works hard. Doesn’t need thank. Exceeds expectations and strives. His yes means yes, and his no means no. He pays his bills, he keeps himself neat and clean. He has integrity and hunmilty.

    That’s a man. From what I am seeing, and have witnessed:

    It’s the guy who chest thumps the loudest, cheats, lies, smears, puts down and is arrogant.

    If that is manhood. If that is mascullne. If that is what I have do to get ahead or a girl to even “notice” me TO be led.

    Well…..I guess I am not made for these times.

    You say I am bitter. I’m not. Inflection and tone are hard to read in this medium, nor would I have this current job, and nor would I have had an excellent rating. Nor would I “like” my job. I do. I’ve liked all of them because I had humility to support myself, and a sense of accomplisment of things I saved for, paid off and earned. I don’t have to thank ANYONE nor do I OWE anyone for all I have material wise or career wise.

    You don’t know me. You and many of the crew at Dalrock take “disagreement” as being bitter. From my take, you don’t like anyone saying you may be wrong, or here is a different opinion……..and since you make presumptions, I’ll allow myself to make one: your elitism in the faith really is a turn off for men who really need the Truth of Christ.

  27. theasdgamer says:

    I have to respond to this comment: “There is the simple fact that if you’re in the top 1% of men (or perhaps it’s more like top .01% in this case) in looks ”

    If you are the top 10% in anything that attracts women, they will throw themselves at you. Bob Hope was quite plain, yet there’d be 3 or 4 beautiful women waiting for him outside his hotel door wherever he went. Hope was quite dominant and glib, despite being ugly.

    Charles Bronson didn’t have great looks, but he stole Jill Ireland from David McCallum. Bronson had a lot of raw masculinity going for him. So did Yul Brynner.

    If you develop a playful attitude, women will be attracted to you. Not only that, but you’ll start to enjoy life more. Men will want to be your friend, etc. You’ll get business opportunities, etc. Cue the quite ugly womanizer Bill Murray as the example of this. People just like Bill–not his star status.

    Henry Kissinger was a troll, but Jill St. John was his gf. Kissinger was glib and dominant like Hope.

  28. theasdgamer says:

    Jason, you sound like you do your job well, but the seminar was an opportunity for you to learn other skills that you’ll need at other jobs. Are you enjoying life?

  29. Bruce says:

    Adsgamer is correct about Bill Murray. I have heard a number of women say he is attractive (he is not handsome). They usually cite his “charm” which is probably really his confidence.

  30. Bruce says:

    This was my perspective (which probably indicates how “beta” I am) as a young man.
    I did not hope to get a girl who was “7” or “8” or whatever. My basic perspective was that most young girls (WHO AREN’T FAT) are attractive. Yes, a few have ugly faces or whatever. But I didn’t care about big boobs/small boobs, ideal waist-hip ratio, model like face, whatever. There was simply a pass/fail – if she exceeded a threshold where she was attractive, it didn’t really matter 5, 7, 10 whatever. So the basic thing a nice young beta male wanted was a girl who is nice/kind and one who he’s capable of being attracted to. I think this is how a lot of guys (probably not Trumps) work.

  31. Bruce says:

    Stated differently, once a girl passed the “attraction” threshold, her personality (kind, sweet, etc.) mattered much more than looks.

  32. seventiesjason says:

    Enjoying life? No of course not. I am ugly, single, alone, nothing fills me. Even the hikes, my record collection, the good rating I get at work. The excellent salary…and I am getting a very good bonus in July…..

    I am terribly sad. Chruch sermons tell me that I am not a “real man” men like you make me more depressed……looking from answers from (cough) supposed leaders in the sphere and I am bitter, not Christian enough…..

    When you hear this your whole life….and now its def halfway over….you begin to wonder what and why you are here. Yes, I ran ministry in the church. The Scouts. I still do street ministry.

    Marriage isn’t everything…….yet it is. WOmen don’t focus on looks, but bobo here wants to know how much you can bench press and women want that only in a man. I have even more of a complex now……..at the age of 50 trying to keep the mass upper body of a 26 year old will make me spend all my free time in a gym………

    You guys again give advice “pat yourselves on the back of your amazing ministry” but in reality shutting the door to most men, and lecturing the ones who just were not blessed or love by God enough for the right genetics.

    I hate you

  33. @ asd

    I’m sure that if I did online dating, I wouldn’t get the same response that I get in person. There’s a whole social context involved in a club or church or a community event that you don’t get with a picture.

    I actually tried online dating. Messaged around 150+ women. About 5 messaged me back. 1 date.

    From that I can conclude that I’m not traditionally physically attractive (or at the very least, not in the top 20%).

  34. @ seventiesjason

    I am terribly sad. Chruch sermons tell me that I am not a “real man” men like you make me more depressed……looking from answers from (cough) supposed leaders in the sphere and I am bitter, not Christian enough…..

    When you hear this your whole life….and now its def halfway over….you begin to wonder what and why you are here. Yes, I ran ministry in the church. The Scouts. I still do street ministry.

    Marriage isn’t everything…….yet it is. WOmen don’t focus on looks, but bobo here wants to know how much you can bench press and women want that only in a man. I have even more of a complex now……..at the age of 50 trying to keep the mass upper body of a 26 year old will make me spend all my free time in a gym……

    No one said this, except the bitter part.

    A “real man” according to the Bible is one who stays strong through following God. You are a real man. Marriage does not make one more of a man.

    Most men can spend an hour or so in the gym 3x a week to get stronger and bigger. You just need to know what to do and apportion your time wisely.

    You guys again give advice “pat yourselves on the back of your amazing ministry” but in reality shutting the door to most men, and lecturing the ones who just were not blessed or love by God enough for the right genetics.

    If you think us trying to help you and give you advice is patting ourselves on the back, shutting the door, and lecturing you, then you probably need to take a break from here.

    Anymore time spent here is fruitless.

  35. Bruce says:

    @ Jason,
    I got lucky. I am skinny, grotesquely hairy like Robin Williams was, was born with crooked teeth, average height, a shy, submissive personality and a poor family. I had one girl in high school show interest in me. And married her. Neither of us were Christian. She was what they would call a bastard from a “trailer trash” family. She turned out to be a good wife which is a one-in-a-million chance I guess from her background. We have both been less than perfect spouses but I guess we have both been good enough.
    I refuse to be a dancing monkey for women. I do not care how much I bench press (and if I do, it’s for me not them). If how much you bench press makes the difference then she isn’t worth marrying – isn’t good enough for you and it will not end well. That’s my opinion.
    Women and children can and do bring you joy and grief. With some, it’s more grief, some more joy but the grief is always there. I get to watch my sons go through hell with women who don’t want them – women who throw themselves at the assholes who trip them in the hallway and punch them. If they’re lucky and work on their bench press enough, in a decade, these same women will suddenly be interested in them after the assholes have gone away. And you love your children more than yourself so it hurts even more than when it happens to you. Sometimes I want to shoot myself so that I don’t have to watch – if that helps you to know how it feels to have children sometimes.
    I can’t say “I know how you feel.” But I know that what has happened to society (and by extension to you) is not your fault. And there’s nothing you could have done about how our society is – this is what we inherited (I was born in the early 70s).
    I am not Catholic but I believe the Council of Trent (and St Paul) is correct – the celibate life can be a more blessed state. Maybe it’s just trading depression for anxiety. You will say that it’s easy for me to say – I guess I don’t have an answer to this.

  36. Bruce says:

    Our fathers, grandfathers, etc. got good wives and they didn’t know what a bench press was. The problem isn’t a guys bench press it’s women and society – and church goers don’t separate themselves from all this.

  37. Random Angeleno says:

    When a man has a good bit of bitterness and/or cynicism, women can sniff that from a mile off and it is very very unattractive. I was that guy for a long time after my marriage broke up. I’m a bit better now, but it’s hard work and a lot of prayer time to set that negativity aside. Plus I’m much older and most women near my age are simply not worth my effort. Just saying… at least I have my faith, without it, I’d be in a much darker place mentally.

  38. theasdgamer says:

    You probably were too nice and inviting…you get better results when women think that they have to work to get your attention and that your time is fully occupied and that you are having fun adventures (yachting in the Baltic and rock climbing in Tibet, etc.) and you’re a sex addict. Pretty funny.

  39. theasdgamer says:

    Jason, people are trying to help you, but you don’t want help. You want life handed to you on a platter. It doesn’t work that way. You will need to work on your personality to make yourself into the guy who is the life of the party. Fun, yet profound. Kind of how Christ is, you know? “The Kingdom of God is like a wedding feast….”

  40. theasdgamer says:

    Bruce:

    “Our fathers, grandfathers, etc. got good wives and they didn’t know what a bench press was.”
    …and they had to work with their hands and their testosterone levels were high and they were very masculine. Contrast with today’s perfumed, elegantly bearded, sandaled metrosexuals. Or pretty much any man who doesn’t lift or work with his hands.

  41. theasdgamer says:

    Bruce:

    “Adsgamer is correct about Bill Murray. I have heard a number of women say he is attractive (he is not handsome). They usually cite his “charm” which is probably really his confidence.”

    Bill Murray ad libs all the way thru “Stripes”. A must-watch movie. Watch the scene where Murray places a girl on the stove and takes a spatula and messes with her legs and butt, like he’s trying to turn a pancake and she giggles all the way thru it. That is Murray as he is in real life. He engages people and messes with them and teases them. I watched a documentary on Murray.

    Like you, I also like girls to be sweet–it’s a must-have, along with passing a looks threshold. I also strongly prefer girls who seem happy to be feminine.

  42. Novaseeker says:

    Jason —

    One thing you may want to look into is getting clinically checked for depression. From what you write, it may very well be the case that you’re clinically depressed — but only a clinician can diagnose that properly. If you are, the treatment generally does help, and in any case, if you are, it will be pretty much impossible to address anything else effectively before addressing that, so at a minimum it would make sense to find out whether it’s the case and needs to be addressed.

  43. theasdgamer says:

    Bruce:

    ” But I know that what has happened to society (and by extension to you) is not your fault.”

    Does it really matter whose fault it is? Because it seems to me that if we can blame someone else for our problems, then we can rationalize not dealing with them.

  44. theasdgamer says:

    @Nova

    Depression. Pills. Or try lifting regularly to raise energy (T-levels).

  45. Wizard Prang says:

    A lot of generally good points. I disagree that a man’s faith makes him more attractive to women. Those things may make a man a “keeper”, but do not make him a “getter”.

    If he is the pastor, or a leader or teacher in the church, that will help. Women are attracted to leaders, not *church* leaders.

    Now if only we could get the ladies in the church to get serious about losing weight, that would help, but as long as they are getting the you-go-girl rah-rah, from the congregation, that is unlikely to happen.

  46. @Wizard Prang:

    In the modern, faux-Faith context, no, Faith does not make a Man attractive. In rejecting the Modern World and understanding the hard-edge that Faith brings, that’s a basis upon which a Man is more than capable of building what is attractive to most Women.

    To embrace Faith in Christ is to embrace the lethality of the Lord. Being a Christian is both hard and should produce a hard-edge. (“Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.” Proverbs 27:17 ESV. Apparently the point of sharpening something metal to make it cut better with a harder edge is lost on most.) I’ve managed to make it a bit more pithy with “God is Love and Love if coming to kill you.” (“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28 ESV.) The point is the same; God is amazingly clear on where we stand without him.

    The modern approach to tripping Christians up is to confuse them by undermining everything, including the language, so it’s nearly impossible to communicate the actually simple parts of the Faith. And one of the simple parts is that Faith requires not just making and maintaining hard choices, but also letting the need to make those choices effect your perspective, personality and what you choose to do in the future. It’s one of the points of “building your house” upon the Rock that is Christ. It should have a categorical effect upon you. If it does not, you simply have a lot of work to do.

    Top-tier attractive Men are mostly born that way with a very special skill set, but being able to deal with Women is its own skill. The single most important part of that skill is not being wrapped into their emotional framework. Being “aloof” or uncontrolled by Women should, in theory, be a natural outcropping of Faith in a Man. That’s why they had to run the Men out of the Church. They’d enforce rules and there is nothing new under the Sun.

  47. Joe2 says:

    @seventiesjason

    God has blessed you in this area or he hasn’t.

    You are absolutely correct 100 percent. Based on my life’s experience and observation there is very little a man can do to attract a girl or improve his chances. Whatever activity (such as going to the gym) you may undertake, do it because you want to and not because you think it will improve your chances. And don’t be fooled, Christian girls in a church setting often feign interest because they feel obligated to be friendly. I know several men who had bitter experiences because they thought the interest was genuine.

    What you can do is be around and available to as many girls (Christian and non-Christian) as possible and, as previously mentioned, only go after a girl that shows clear interest in you. It’s a numbers game. But this becomes increasingly difficult with age and a point is reached where the women you may meet have so much baggage that it is no longer worth the effort.

  48. @ Joe2

    You are absolutely correct 100 percent. Based on my life’s experience and observation there is very little a man can do to attract a girl or improve his chances. Whatever activity (such as going to the gym) you may undertake, do it because you want to and not because you think it will improve your chances. And don’t be fooled, Christian girls in a church setting often feign interest because they feel obligated to be friendly. I know several men who had bitter experiences because they thought the interest was genuine.

    I don’t know your specific situation, but I already made some points in the post about this.

    If you’re extremely short or have some type of other area that is a very negative detractor from attraction this can mitigate many of the things you’re doing to “improve your chances.”

    For example, a man who is 4’10” likely will have issues attracting a woman despite how muscular, stylish, or strong of a leader he is. The only way to mitigate a circumstance like this significantly is to be famous like Danny Devito.

    Obviously, do what you can to mitigate the negative detractors *and* work on the other areas as much as you can.

  49. The “outgoing-ness” of a Man’s personality will always be inversely proportional to his height relative to the median height of the society he is in. That is, the shorter you are, the more projected your personality needs to be. The taller you are, the less projected it needs to be because your physical presence simply projects Power by the nature of the height difference.

    Guys over 6’6″/2m are normally pretty awesome because the nature of towering over everyone means they really don’t need to project their personality that hard. Makes them tend towards being quite chill.

  50. Joe2 says:

    @Deep Strength

    Thanks for your response.

    Here’s my specific situation which I hope provides the basis for my agreement with @seventiesjason – being the best only works for men who had something to begin with.

    In general, I’ve experienced that when I’m in Rhode Island the girls there are much more open and accepting of me than when I’m back home in New York. In one location, it’s quite easy to establish some kind of relationship and in the other location I’m basically the invisible man. So in one location I have something desirable (I don’t know what that is) and in the other location I don’t. I haven’t changed. So I agree with @seventiesjason – you either have it or you don’t.

  51. @ Joe2

    In general, I’ve experienced that when I’m in Rhode Island the girls there are much more open and accepting of me than when I’m back home in New York. In one location, it’s quite easy to establish some kind of relationship and in the other location I’m basically the invisible man. So in one location I have something desirable (I don’t know what that is) and in the other location I don’t. I haven’t changed. So I agree with @seventiesjason – you either have it or you don’t.

    This is easily explained.

    Let’s say objectively you’re a male “7” in RI. You’ll get solid interest from women. Maybe not the interest of the most attractive women, but you’ll be able to go on a fair amount of dates.

    However, in larger areas like NY and especially NYC where there is a massive population, you’ll probably be at best a “5” there.

    Many reasons:

    1. There’s larger numbers of more objectively attractive men there (> numbers), which the women will be interested in.

    2. There’s a larger proportion of men who are more attractive (so if you were in the top 20% percentile in RI, you might be only at 50% percentile in NY).

    3. In larger areas, certain traits like by women become more prioritized. For example, in NY/NYC it’s all about power, status, and money. In Miami, looks become a much bigger factor. In Los Angeles where almost everyone has tons of money, status and connections are huge.

    Yes, all of these things are highly prized in each area, but some have more prioritization than others.

    The moral of the story is that it’s much easier to stand out in areas of smaller populations. If you’re an average dude living in a big city, you gotta work much harder to be attractive than an average guy in a mid-sized city or suburbs or rural area.

  52. seventiesjason says:

    Geography lesson.

    New York State is big for the east coast. Where is “Joe” from in NY? The City or Long Island? Westchester County?

    If he is from Upstate its small cities separted by vast rolling hills, forests and lovely countryside….go further north you are in the Adirondacks which is a state of mind all its own (as it should be. I miss it very much). Most of New York State is rural and poor.

    LA is the most poverty stricken city DS west of the Mississippi……most people don’t have tons of money or status…….a man making 100K now is considered “meh average” income. I live in California.

    You have to work hard anywhere DS…….but those with the looks usually have a few free steps on the ladder and then have the gall to say “You’re just not trying hard enough”

  53. Novaseeker says:

    So in one location I have something desirable (I don’t know what that is) and in the other location I don’t. I haven’t changed. So I agree with @seventiesjason – you either have it or you don’t.

    It’s like DS says, location matters. If you either have it or you don’t, period, in an objective sense, you wouldn’t be seeing drastically different levels of interest in RI as compared with NY.

    The bigger cities attract the most ambitious, competitive people overall, and those people are also generally ambitious in their dating lives (including the women). So the environment is simply more competitive in general in all areas, including dating. The bigger cities also have poor people in them who are not competitive, but they tend to also be in their own dating markets as well, and are harder to access if you are not a part of that milieu (the lawyers in Manhattan have a different dating market than the working class people in Happauge do .. there isn’t much interaction between them at all).

    In any case, regardless of where you are located, you can do things to improve your success rate, but if you have a major drawback (very short, fat, etc.), you will get much less return on your investment. Naturally good looking people do have it easier in life overall (not just in dating), but the idea that you have to be good looking to have a GF or a wife is belied by taking a stroll through the local Walmart.

  54. Not A Fake Christian says:

    Deep Strength,
    You sound like a very insecure unattractive man. You will never be able to attract what you lack. Most of men like yourself are moderately unattractive and try hard to compensate. It simply will never happen. It likely bothers you that that minority’s such as myself are wealthy, educated, and far more attractive than yourself. I attract the women you wish you could. No amount of I’m a Christian and better than him can ever compete with a real Alfa like myself. You and all men like yourself are fake and will never succeed in the dating world being church, the secular community or otherwise. Women want “ real attractive men” Christian or not…

  55. They’ve even outsourced the influence agent bots. Though, I must admit, I had a good laugh at “Alfa”. Not only a fake Christian, but a fake in general.

    I still wonder who’s funding these influence bots for blogs. Some group is clearly paid to perform these actions.

  56. @ LG

    Could be a bot.

    Could also be a “very insecure man” who wants to call all of us, including myself, insecure. Ample projection to go around.

    Things like attracting numerous white women but is conned into marrying a woman on her 3rd (!) marriage don’t add up. If you’re really that attractive you have the pick of the litter with women and can easily vet and marry someone who is not just a Christian in name only.

    Jonadab is right though. The real goal behind all that we do isn’t marriage but faith and following Jesus. You don’t need marriage to do that, but if you do have a marriage that’s the goal too.

  57. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    While I don’t know for certain about “Not a fake Christian”, my gut tells me that there are people out there who are paid to destabilize blogs through the comment thread.

  58. @DS:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa-Bank

    I saw this comment first, so I knew it was bot/influence agent. The Alpha/Alfa mistake is common among Eastern Europeans when dealing with the English usage of Greek. It was obviously a bunch of lies in the first place, but that mistake let me know where the creation source is from.

    The existence of trolls is a natural consequence of human interaction, but the fact that there are roving, paid-for influence (or, really, demotivator) agents is more interesting to me. There are services that clearly do this regularly in all blogs/forums, but the fact someone regularly is paying for it to specifically target Christians implies many things. Though I’m quite curious who’s paying.

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