Women’s attraction to masculine men

This article from psychology today looks at some of the research on attraction.

Some researchers have suggested that masculine characteristics in men’s faces, such as a strong jaw or a heavy brow, are associated with good physical health and strength, while feminine characteristics, such as a small jaw or large eyes, are associated with emotional warmth and trustworthiness.

Whether these hypothesized associations between facial masculinity-femininity and both men’s physical characteristics and personality traits are robust is hotly debated. Nonetheless, masculinized versions of male face images (versions in which male sex-typical traits are exaggerated) are at least reliably perceived to look physically stronger and fitter than feminized versions. Similarly, feminized versions of male face images (versions in which male sex-typical traits are reduced) are reliably perceived to look more trustworthy and cooperative than masculinized versions.

Thus, when straight women assess men’s suitability as partners they are faced with a potentially intriguing tradeoff. On one hand, they could choose a masculine-faced, strong, and healthy partner. On the other hand, they could choose a feminine-faced, caring, sharing (i.e., prosocial) partner. Over the last decade or so, many studies have investigated how environmental factors might influence how women resolve this tradeoff, potentially giving rise to cultural differences in women’s preferences for masculine men.

This is standard. “Handsome” features in men have always been the wider, angular face with a strong jaw line.

Ian Penton-Voak and colleagues (2004) conducted one of the first studies to look at this issue, comparing the facial masculinity preferences of women living in the UK with those of women living in rural Jamaica. They found that Jamaican women showed stronger preferences for masculine men than did UK women. To explain this cultural difference in masculinity preferences, they noted that the risk of contracting a serious illness was greater in rural Jamaica than in the UK and that long-term pair bonds between men and women were less common in rural Jamaica than in the UK. They speculated that these two factors could cause Jamaican women to place greater importance on the strength and health of masculine men and less importance on the prosociality of feminine men than do UK women.

Following in this vein of research, Lisa DeBruine and colleagues (2010) tested whether women living in countries where people are more likely to die because of infectious illnesses showed stronger preferences for masculine-faced men. They found some evidence to support this hypothesis from an online study of more than 4,500 women in 30 countries. However, an alternative analysis of their publicly accessible data by Rob Brooks and colleagues (2010) suggested that threat of violence (as indicated by homicide and violent crime rates or by income inequality) was a better predictor of women’s preferences for masculine men. They suggested women in countries with a higher threat of violence may show stronger preferences for masculine men because masculine men afford their partner greater physical protection and are better able to aggressively compete for resources.

So far, so muddled… and from here the plot only thickens. Subsequent work by Isabel Scott and colleagues (2014) found little evidence that the threat of violence or risk of disease was related to women’s masculinity preferences. Instead, they found that women in more modern, industrialized countries showed stronger preferences for masculine-faced men. They suggested that this pattern of results indicated that masculinity preferences were evolutionary novel and simply a consequence of women in more industrialized countries encountering many more faces in their daily lives than do women in less industrialized societies.

The most recent study, by Ula Marcinkowska and colleagues (2019), found that women in countries with higher offspring survival rates and better economic conditions preferred more masculine-faced men. By contrast, they found no evidence that the threat of violence predicted women’s masculinity preferences.

So, what on earth is going on with these results? Some results suggest that women’s masculinity preferences are stronger in countries where sickness is more common, others where sickness is less common, some where violence is more common, and others where economic conditions are more favorable. It’s possible that women in wealthier, more industrialized countries are less interested in a caring, sharing partner. Indeed, Marcinkowska and colleagues found that masculinity preferences were stronger in countries where women were more open to short-term relationships—an argument similar to the one Penton-Voak and colleagues made 15 years previously!

The disparate, often confusing results of these studies highlight the pitfalls inherent in using correlational designs to explore the highly intercorrelated factors that might underpin cultural differences in mate preferences. Experimental methods in which cues to environmental factors such as violence and disease can be systematically varied are clearly the solution to this problem, right? Although you might think so, two experiments that attempted to do precisely that also produced contrasting results. One experiment found that viewing images of sources of infectious disease increased masculinity preferences, but another experiment did not replicate this effect.

So what we have here is:

  • Jamaican women showed stronger preference for masculine men than UK.
  • Women in places with more infectious disease deaths and higher violence rates tend to prefer more masculine men.
  • Women in modern, industrialized countries showed stronger preferences for masculine faced men.
  • Women in countries with higher offspring survival rates preferred masculine faced men, and no evidence of the threat of violence.

This shouldn’t be a surprise to most of us. In general, women prefer masculine men. This is more prominent in countries with violence, but still even in industrialized countries women prefer masculine men.

In industrialized countries where the threat level of violence (protectorship) and provivision decrease (providership), women still prefer masculine men. However, the amount of masculine men similarly tend to decrease due to less overall masculinization of men (increasing feminization factors and less need for threat of violence), so you tend to see women with more less masculine men overall just because there is a deficit.

The author did not look at the age(s) of the participants in the study earlier, and we know that women tend to prefer more masculinized men in their 20s. But if they can’t find a masculine man to marry by 30s, they’ll start “preferring” less masculine men as their body goes into baby rabies mode.

In any case, be attractive and don’t be unattractive: be a masculine man.

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30 Responses to Women’s attraction to masculine men

  1. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Don’t ask me to link it, I saw it months ago on Reddit. A commenter wrote that he stumbled into a thread with a bunch of prepubescent girls discussing the relative merits of attraction of cartoon characters. What shocked him, and made the comment stick with me like bad pizza, was that the girls were all attracted to villains. None of them were heroes. Dudley Do-Right would have been laughed off the stage. After that, knowing that women would be set for life at that point but would not specify what they found attractive ever so openly again, it kind took the wind out of my sails. Now, poor Nell has to hope that her father will come for her when Snidely Whiplash ties her up and leaves her on the train tracks.
    Common sense would lead a man to believe that women are attracted to the classically masculine. Common sense can also lead a man to many fallacious conclusions.

  2. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    For those who couldn’t follow the reference,

  3. theasdgamer says:

    Women will select based on physical attributes. However, women will only select based on physical attributes if they have not perceived other attributes of male attractiveness.

    If a man waits for a signal for a woman such as eye contact before he approaches, then he will think that physical attributes are the main thing that women find attractive because he will have no other data. However, if a man doesn’t wait for a woman’s signal, but approaches and displays other attractive attributes, such as social skill and value (conversational ability, humor, an engaging personality, etc.), then he will find that many women will find him attractive. I have seen it time and again, that women will gravitate from attractive men who are less charming to ugly men who are more charming. Now it’s true that you don’t find a lot of ugly men who are charming, but there are some whom you can find if you are observant. See if they aren’t surrounded by women.

    David Spade is plain and short and has way below average looks for Hollywood. However, he has had many beautiful women as girlfriends because he is way above average in charm, humor, and engaging people.

    So let’s all focus on improving our conversational ability, being fun, and engaging people–especially single men.

  4. @ Fuzzie

    Don’t ask me to link it, I saw it months ago on Reddit. A commenter wrote that he stumbled into a thread with a bunch of prepubescent girls discussing the relative merits of attraction of cartoon characters. What shocked him, and made the comment stick with me like bad pizza, was that the girls were all attracted to villains. None of them were heroes. Dudley Do-Right would have been laughed off the stage. After that, knowing that women would be set for life at that point but would not specify what they found attractive ever so openly again, it kind took the wind out of my sails. Now, poor Nell has to hope that her father will come for her when Snidely Whiplash ties her up and leaves her on the train tracks.

    That I think also has to do with the dearth of positive male role models.

    All of the good guy superheroes play second fiddle to the grrrl power super heroes who, of course, thrash the good guy superhero and the grrrl power superhero must save the good guy from the villain.

    When villains exert more power than the good guys, it’s little wonder when women are attracted to power and status will want villains instead of good guys.

    Common sense would lead a man to believe that women are attracted to the classically masculine. Common sense can also lead a man to many fallacious conclusions.

    Don’t agree with that conclusion. It’s like the reason why there are so “few good men” is because society conditions mainly for ‘beta males’ and ‘bad boys.’

    Same thing happening here.

  5. Novaseeker says:

    While the conventional wisdom followers may be confounded by the result that women in more prosperous countries have stronger masculinity preferences, this follows pretty easily from the fact that when women are financially independent, they are “free” to select men based on pure attraction, rather than what we might call “dad qualities”. Therefore in these settings women select for more masculinity, because masculinity is attractive to women, all else being equal. In other words they have the luxury to select for more attractive men because they are not reliant on men financially (at least not to the same degree).

    This is one main reason why we see so many younger men spending so much time lifting, grooming, working on style and so on — this stuff simply matters a LOT more to women now than it did even 30 years ago. Because it can. Women have always preferred men with muscles and style, of course, but in the prior dispensation they were not at liberty to select on that basis because they were not nearly as capable of being economically comfortable independently of being married to a man. That isn’t the case and so the standards shifted towards stronger expectations of masculine presentation.

    The rise of app-based dating has greatly accelerated this trend, because in a dating app situation, women are selecting, and hard, based on appearance, period. So men are also adapting to meet that criterion, given that an absolutely huge percentage of people now do almost all of their dating through apps (and the percentage is higher the lower in age you go).

    I agree with asd that if a man has the rest of the package (aka “charm”) going on, he can still do well enough attracting women in real life even with a so-so, or lower, appearance. But it’s getting harder every year because women are getting more physically selective every year for all of the reasons I outline above.

    So far, many women are moving towards less masculine men as mates if they are unmarried and wish to have kids in their 30s, because there is a lack of masculine men. Increasing numbers of these less masculine men, though, are at least physically attractive in a masculine sense, even though they do not have masculine personalities. Some women do end up marrying “Phil from Accounting” who doesn’t lift, but that’s becoming less common every year as more men who are not masculine in terms of temperament and persona nevertheless take the time and effort to become masculine looking so that they can at least be a viable beta bux for an attractive(ish) woman who is looking to marry in her 30s.

    Bottom line is this: in the “prosperous countries”, masculine physical attractiveness, which was always preferred for women obviously, has become massively more important for men to be successful with women than it was even 30-40 years ago, due to changes in the economy, and massive changes in how people meet people for dating. Younger men know this and are bifurcating into the set that is very conscientious about being built and having style, on the one hand, and the other set that has basically given up in their 20s already, and that bifurcation will define the dating market for some time.

  6. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    I attributed it to women being fickle and contrary. If women are going to only be attracted to villains, then we are all in big trouble.

  7. theasdgamer says:

    Nova, physical attractiveness (facial beauty and physique) in men is only important to a woman at first glance. Besides face and body, there is an aspect of physical attractiveness to men that comes from how they carry themselves–do they seem confident and relaxed and possibly dangerous and do they show high status cues with an elevated nose? The second part of physical attractiveness is behavioral. However, in the rest of my comment I’ll be referring to the first aspect of men’s physical attractiveness.

    I just hit a new bar in a new city. My looks are about a five–above average facial beauty but I’m bald and about forty pounds overweight and over sixty. Yet that night I was teaching girls to dance whose looks were easily a seven and I was dancing with about fifteen different women, most of whom were in their twenties. The girls I danced with weren’t dance geeks in the slightest. The women I danced with also danced with some young men, but some would only dance with me. And some stared at me the whole dance like they had a crush on me–especially one lovely woman. And another lovely young woman indicated that she wanted to dance a second dance with me. I was getting strong IOIs from lovely young women. Young women are often very “handsy” with me or move to dance close, so there must be more than mere social attraction involved.

    I don’t think any of this in-the-field experience makes sense if you believe that women are primarily attracted to men based on looks. The reason that men think that looks are of primary importance to women like they are to men is because we men believe that “humans” are attracted by looks (because women are like men, supposedly, so men and women’s and men’s attraction cues are supposedly interchangeable.) However, we know that women are hypergamous and men are polygamous, so the sexual wiring between men and women is substantially different. Men find submissiveness attractive, while women find dominance attractive–men and women are very different in their wiring about sexual attractiveness.

    However, since women often make the first move, which is based on looks (or preselection, but that’s outside the scope of my discussion), then men know that looks can be a factor, but in reality we give our looks way too much importance–if we wait for women to make the first move.

    I think that men need to experiment to find out for themselves. Make some cold approaches without any invitation from women. Don’t wait for eye contact, but just approach women directly and chat them up and be humorous and engaging and find out how effective that is for yourself.

  8. Novaseeker says:

    I don’t think any of this in-the-field experience makes sense if you believe that women are primarily attracted to men based on looks.

    I never said they were. What I did say was that looks are becoming more important to women as they are getting pickier with men, and particularly as dating apps become prevalent. Women do evaluate men on much more than their looks when meeting men in real life, but (1) looks have assumed a more prominent role than in the past and (2) on dating apps, it’s all about looks.

    Yes, yes, men should avoid dating apps unless they are very good looking, we all agree there, but the reality is that for the under 30 set dating apps are the normal way people meet. I don’t disagree with you about men making the first move as a way of compensating for lesser looks — that can work if you have good Game, I agree. But the norm for most younger people is dating apps now regardless.

  9. seventiesjason says:

    Married men, and men who always had “it” again lecturing and giving advice to men of “be alpha” and just “be masculine”

    and when a frustrated man asks how?

    out come the negs, the shaming, and the “you have a bad attitude” and “just walk right up women and talk to them”

    I’ve met more virgin guys my age and around my age than I ever thought existed and guess what? We’re far from mouth breathers with bad haircuts and thick eyeglasses and bad hygiene. We don’t think ‘star trek’ is real, nor do we dress up like superheroes.

    You guys are forgetting something……..and instead of telling us to “just be masculine” how about for once you teach us. Mentor men in your church. Actively try to help them instead of sending them to “non-Christian” sites and materials. Remember in many cases a man might be 25, or 30, or 45….and he has ZERO dating experience. It’s a huge gap to vercome…..and for all this talk of “christian brotherhood” you’re all talk and patting yourselves on the back about all you’re doing….and the gap widens in church….more men leave…more men just realize they cannot bask in your greatness. No matter what they do.

    You also are forgetting that most of you NEVER had a problem with female attention. It would be like teaching my Downs Syndrome older brother to get better at reading, even though he may only have the cognitive ability of a first grader………..but you telling him that “you are just not trying hard enough”

    The best way to help Christian men is freaking mentor them in your church. Actively. Get to know them. Talk to them. Invite them to dinner. You know…..actually helping socialize these guys. Teach them. Walk with them.

    That takes work. Something you all claim to love in the form of “advice” but put into practice…….you’re like the chuchians and cuckservatives you all bemoan.

    Aside from that. I love everyone of you

  10. Sharkly says:

    Of all the luck! Women who annoy me, become super attracted to me whenever I try to give them the brush off by disrespecting them. It took me a while to figure that out, back in the day, with all the exactly backwards blue pill indoctrination I grew up being taught. The women who annoyed me the most, somehow always thought I was flirting when I told them to get away from me. And of course I’d try to be “nice” to the ones I liked, and you can guess how poorly that worked. If they were attracted to me, it was only because they saw how boldly I was kicking all the other ladies to the curb.

  11. theasdgamer says:

    @Jason,

    I do try to mentor some Christian guys I meet at bars, occasionally, but generally those guys are sold on the Blue Pill. The non-Christian guys are more open to mentoring. Guys at church won’t even go to bars or other places where they might practice their social skills and charm. If you want mentoring, I will travel to where you are or you can travel to where I am and I will mentor you for a week, but you have to follow my instructions and pay my way if I travel to your location, including providing room and board. You can give me a cash bonus at the end of the week based on the value that you think I provided. You and I will agree in advance about what we will focus on. Most of the risk will be on me.

    There ya go. Game on. Let me know if you’re interested.

    @Nova

    Dating apps? Lol, how can you get preselection with dating apps? Preselection is 80% of the game, Going to bars and clubs and meetups and dance studios is the only way to go at first because you need to be in a setting where there are many girls you can talk to and dance with. Maybe church singles functions after you get practiced in freer settings.

    Speed dating should be avoided because you have no control over the frame.

  12. Joe2 says:

    I just hit a new bar in a new city….I don’t think any of this in-the-field experience makes sense if you believe that women are primarily attracted to men based on looks.

    I’m reminded of my experiences when I visited bars in Rhode Island which I’ve mentioned in a previous post.

    Had a great conversation with a women who volunteered telling me her age (25), her income (~90K) and her N count (7). I told her I don’t drink and I’m not buying her a drink. She didn’t care. Later I went out to the patio. She followed me out and sat even closer and continued the conversation.

    Next time, I had an excellent conversation with a young woman who was a substitute school teacher and soon starting a full time teaching job. She was sitting at the bar by herself. I just walked up and complimented her on her dress. We sat at a table and told her that when the waitress comes over not to order a drink unless she’s paying because I’m not buying. She didn’t order anything.

    It’s not my looks because I’m the invisible man. It’s not my age because I’m old enough to be their father and probably older than their father. It’s not my wallet because it was closed. Either you have what they are looking for or you don’t.

  13. theasdgamer says:

    Joe, if you’re the invisible man, how did you end up talking with a 25 y.o.? You can obviously carry on a conversation, so that’s some value demonstrated right there. If you can talk to several women and make them laugh, other women will see that and you will have preselection if you don’t screw it up, say by approaching some pretty girl with submissive posture.

  14. @ seventiesjason

    You guys are forgetting something……..and instead of telling us to “just be masculine” how about for once you teach us. Mentor men in your church. Actively try to help them instead of sending them to “non-Christian” sites and materials. Remember in many cases a man might be 25, or 30, or 45….and he has ZERO dating experience. It’s a huge gap to vercome…..and for all this talk of “christian brotherhood” you’re all talk and patting yourselves on the back about all you’re doing….and the gap widens in church….more men leave…more men just realize they cannot bask in your greatness. No matter what they do.

    ….

    The best way to help Christian men is freaking mentor them in your church. Actively. Get to know them. Talk to them. Invite them to dinner. You know…..actually helping socialize these guys. Teach them. Walk with them.

    That takes work. Something you all claim to love in the form of “advice” but put into practice…….you’re like the chuchians and cuckservatives you all bemoan.

    Honestly, I have no clue why you’re posting stuff like this here.

    I have mentioned before that I help to mentor and do life with young men at the young adults groups.

    I even spent several thousands of dollars writing a book to help young men.

    I’m one of the men who have actually done something about it.

  15. seventiesjason says:

    I worked in a bar and nightclub……

    Me: “Hey lady, what you need!” as I spin a napkin on to the bar

    loud thumping of beggin’ for the pussy music everywhere

    Her: “Ummm…….I was here a few minutes ago, and I didn’t like the drink you made me, so this one is on you. I want a Jaegerbomb.”

    Me smiling “I want a blowjob and good cocaine, that isn’t happening while I am at work. So, I’ll make you a top-face Jaegerbomb, and you pay me 12.00”

    Her : “F*cking assh*le” storms off to her equally snotty but pretty girlfriends
    Other male bartenders give them free drinks. The women EVERY night still all want the same two to three dudes while everyone else plays pocket pool or tries to only be blown up in the water. Saw a billion trillion times.

    Bars. You’re a joke.

    You sales pitch was that of a typical PUA. No risk on you. If it DOESN’T work, you’ll shrug and say “well, you didn’t follow my steps EXACTLY” (which means being sixty pounds overweight as well)

    You should perhaps go to church, take a CHALLENGE that blue pilled guy and help him…..but like I said. THAT would takle SERIOUS work.

    It’;s easier to come on here and tell us what a natural you are with women……..maybe you should pay attention to your wife. Take HER dancing. Take HER to a bar.

  16. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    seventiesjason,
    When SSM had her blog, there was one commenter named Joseph of Jackson who did exactly that. He gave a bunch of church guys enough confidence so that they could get dates. When the church ladies heard about it, they went ballistic. Joseph and his crew ended up leaving. The last word that I heard was that they were looking for a new church. The point is that there are powerful forces that don’t want to see boys make any headway. I wonder if they expect to have grandchildren?

  17. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    Please forgive seventiesjason. I understand his frustration and you are very much not the cause of it.

  18. seventiesjason says:

    Places “Gold Star” on DS’s forehead. Just fore you my man, for the “everybody gets a trophy generation”

    Count the realtionship books out there for men DS. Bookshelves full. Many good. Some I am sure are excellent….and maybe yours is. Most are pretty terrible and most are all written the same.

    All this same information has been in men’s magazines since the 1980’s when I was coming up, everything is foolproof, everything is about confidence (arrogance) and forgetting the fact that men (and women) are not equal in these abilities physically, mentally, emotionally or in intellligence.

    Most of it is really just being born with “it” and some luck, and the right place at the right time.

    And it still….all this information is about how to get women to notice, like, date, and mate YOU. Who’s pandering to women??????????????????????????

    Look, I am sure your book will be a huge success and sometime in the next few months every young Christian man is gonna become adonis, and EACH ONE will find and MARRY that superr, super, rare Christian woman who “just wants the real masucline man of God to just appraoch her”

    Then next week, we’ll hear on how there are no real Christian women around with a low n count.

    Most men are backed hopelessly into a corner…..and as usual…..you “real, mighty men of God of whom He had favor on by placing a wife in your life” will AGAIN lecture on how its easy and plenty of women are out there.

    Hence why young men…..and men like me are finding with Christianity its more about bragging and penis measuring than it is about Jesus………..who wants that?

    I mean, in the Christian man-o-sphere maybe a few hundred men, their wives, their kids of course and Rollo are going to heaven,

    Everyone else is blue pilled, usavable and chumps.

    No thanks. I’ll stick with the chumps than even attempt to go to heaven and spend eternity with the likes of you.

    -end 🙂

    Yeah….I won’t be back. Have fun everyon

  19. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    After reading that comment three times, it looks as if this SMP is designed to chew up and spit out men who came into it honestly.

  20. Joe2 says:

    Joe, if you’re the invisible man, …

    I’m the invisible man back home in upstate New York where being ignored is the norm.

  21. @fuzzie:

    On the young girls and attractive characters, there’s a few things going on with this. It’s not just one thing. In the modern storytelling, to make it attractive to female audiences, the main female character needs to be their audience stand-in and the “good guys” need to be fairly boring. Because being upright has to be uncool while also still being utterly expected to be the norm. (Fried Ice issues that, but it’s the line they sell, hard, these days.)

    This lets the antagonist get to do the actually interesting parts of the story, and thus get the ability to be the cause of Action while the main characters are all Reactive. The Reactive part is necessary for serialized storytelling (all those Franchises), but it also renders the primary characters are not actually driving the story itself. They simply aren’t as interesting or showing the outward aspects of Masculinity.

    At a rudimentary level, Masculinity is the energy to be “in Action”. Women are just actually incredibly bad at understanding what that really looks like. Their main proxy is Charisma and there is a relation, but it’s a pretty bad proxy. This is also the nature of the Fitness Test, even if Fitness Testing is based almost always on lying. It’s a test of strength of the Man, even if what is actually being tested is the ability to read that a Woman is lying to you and dealing with that.

    Anyway, that’s most of what is going on there. The villains get to be cool because the MC has to be somewhat boring and go through some Hero’s Journey arc. Though, like most things creative, people create better what they know and most in media are evil. Thus, the evil characters are just better constructed.

  22. Novaseeker says:

    Dating apps? Lol, how can you get preselection with dating apps?

    Sure, I agree, but the topic up there is not “how to pick up girls if you aren’t going to catch their eye physically”, it’s trends in what women find attractive in men. The trend in prosperous countries is toward men with more masculine *appearances*. I explained some of the things driving that, and the use of dating apps, which has become massive among the under 35 set, is one of the main factors driving that. I agree that if you aren’t going to attract physically at first blush, using a dating app is a waste of time, but most young people are using dating apps anyway and want to use them — which is why, as I explained, you see so many younger men spending much more effort on their appearance than men did previously. None of that goes against what you said, but the post wasn’t about “how tp pick up girls in bars” it was trends in what women are attracted to, in terms of *appearance*, because the studies mentioned in the article are all based on images of men, particularly male faces, and not interacting with men in bars and clubs.

  23. theasdgamer says:

    Nova,

    Perhaps we should back up and consider which approaches are best for men, generally speaking. Is it best for men to use dating apps? Maybe if you’re good looking. If you’re not, it’s best to focus on social skills and social value, which requires a social context like a bar or meetup or party.

    Can a man compete if he’s not good looking? Absolutely. The prettiest girls aren’t using dating apps–they are going out. But let’s consider ordinary girls who are using both dating apps and going out–I know several who do this. Perhaps they see a handsome guy online and they chat. Then they meet in person and maybe her expectations are disappointed because he doesn’t give off attractive social cues–maybe shy and quiet and introverted–and the girl compares this good looking but bland-personality guy with an ugly but charming man she met last Sat. night at the bar. So what is she gonna do? The girl will invite the handsome man to the bar and compare the two–I’ve seen this happen. Then she dumps the handsome man.

    I’ve seen girls do this. I’ve also seen girls dump PUAs who lack confidence and frame–insecurity is a desire killer for women, even if a man generates tingles by playing with a girl’s emotions.

    If handsome men focus on dating apps, they will match with ordinary looking women. If ugly men focus on social contexts, they will match with the prettiest women, assuming they don’t give off feminine cues like a lack of emotional control (cough-Jason-cough) and exhibit charm and social dominance.

    Cue Jason the bartender. Girls try to get me to buy them free drinks all the time, using various games. “Nice try.” “Yeah, I was born yesterday.” “I saw that game last week.” “You need to go back to school.” Humorous, dominant replies are the way to go. You can both have fun AND enforce your boundaries if you want to.

    But if you’re lazy, just fester in your own incompetent girlishness.

  24. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Looking Glass,
    Are you trying to tell me that women live in a world of fantasy?

  25. Hypothesis:

    In the third world (or in 1930s USA), all men are/were to learn to be masculine. Masculine behavior was the baseline. When you tell boys it’s OK to be a pussy, only more naturally masculine ones will ignore you and act fully masculine without having to be told.

    I hypothesize that masculine facial features are a more reliable predictor of masculine behavior in affluent first world societies, because in those societies, masculinity isn’t properly taught.

    Could be wrong.

  26. @ Matthew Walker

    In the third world (or in 1930s USA), all men are/were to learn to be masculine. Masculine behavior was the baseline. When you tell boys it’s OK to be a pussy, only more naturally masculine ones will ignore you and act fully masculine without having to be told.

    One thing that I would posit has helped make men throughout the 1920s to 1970s were all of the ‘world wars’ and US conflicts. When you’re fighting life and death battles, small things like leading a woman are much less of an issue.

    Also, as you said, naturally masculine behavior was the baseline and expected. TV/media reinforced this (e.g. John Wayne, etc.) as well as Church and family. Men were expected to be men.

    Much less so now.

  27. @ asdgamer

    Perhaps we should back up and consider which approaches are best for men, generally speaking. Is it best for men to use dating apps? Maybe if you’re good looking. If you’re not, it’s best to focus on social skills and social value, which requires a social context like a bar or meetup or party.

    The “approaches” that work best for seriously Christian men are getting involved in or leading ministry and/or Bible studies in Church. Developing these types of leadership skills. Getting a good mentor/discipleship.

    If needed, also volunteering with campus ministries or service projects where leading men (and women who volunteer) become more standard. You only learn by doing.

    I don’t recommend dating apps or going out to bars or dancing to meeting women. Dancing can be OK if you’re already decent/good but the time investment is usually too much when these men can put more time into developing their leadership skills both spiritually and practically in other forms as mentioned. Most of the women Christian men should be meeting are in Church.

    The key is developing themselves into a strong masculine leader in that framework. It can be done, but men have to want to go for it and be open to making mistakes as they learn.

  28. theasdgamer says:

    I agree that learning to lead is important for a man. Leading a woman requires somewhat different skills than leading men. In lead/follow dances, you learn to lead women as you dance–dancing is not just moves. When you dance, you can also learn to polish your social skills and add social value to yourself. If you think about it, you find that the leading that you do in dancing carries over off the dance floor and can be used in everyday life with women.

    I find lots of good Christian women in bars. They mention church in conversation and I don’t see them leaving the bar late with men. For some reason, the church context kills dating vibes and chemistry. Maybe because church has an asexual vibe where flirting is discouraged. Bars, otoh, have a sexual vibe where flirting is allowed and women and men feel free to flirt.

    The NT has several examples of women flirting with Jesus. There was no asexual vibe coming from Jesus. Jesus was accused of consorting with drunkards and prostitutes and tax collectors and sinners. I don’t hold myself purer than Jesus. Bars are fine in my book.

    Lots of women are at bars and bars are a great place to practice social skills, flirting, etc. Maybe you’ll even meet a woman there whom you will want to marry. For most people, you develop your social skills at bars and use those social skills to develop your social circle and maybe eventually find a woman you want to marry. You can practice at bars without doing one night stands or STRs if those things bother you.

    You aren’t going to develop your flirting skills leading men’s Bible studies (I hope, hehe.) . And leading men’s Bible studies isn’t going to help you learn to communicate with women–men and women work very differently when it comes to communication. (Lead/follow dances, otoh, are great for learning to communicate with women.)

    If we are going to be theoretical and puritanical, as opposed to practical, I don’t think that we will be able to help many men. “Thou shalt not go to bars” isn’t in my Bible.

  29. @ asdgamer

    I find lots of good Christian women in bars. They mention church in conversation and I don’t see them leaving the bar late with men. For some reason, the church context kills dating vibes and chemistry. Maybe because church has an asexual vibe where flirting is discouraged. Bars, otoh, have a sexual vibe where flirting is allowed and women and men feel free to flirt.

    I find it quite dubious that many “good Christian women” are going to bars and especially are flirting with a married man like yourself.

    I don’t think flirting is bad, and it can be done in Church settings.

  30. theasdgamer says:

    Women don’t know I’m married unless they ask; I don’t wear a ring. Church girls usually go to bars in groups, usually with men from their church. And those women don’t flirt. (Not that there’s anything wrong with flirting with a married man. Fifteenth Commandment: “The single women shalt not flirt with married men.” We tend to add to God’s words, don’t we?) That’s what I see.

    I don’t see flirting at church functions; certainly not at dinner parties held by my own small group which consists solely of old married couples. The women sexualize in that group, but the men don’t. (Freedom for thee, but not for me.) I guess I could go investigate the young adults group to see if that’s different.

    Even if you don’t think that flirting is bad, there is still an asexual vibe at church functions.

    I appreciate your engagement.

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