“Losing the faith”

Along with Joshua Harris choosing apostasy, AR comments that Marty Sampson (of Hillsong) is leaving the faith.

Marty Sampson wrote many of the worship songs that were played in some of the Churches that I grew up in, so that is definitely sad to hear. His lyrics were theologically sound in most cases.

John Cooper (of the band Skillet) has a widely quoted thing that is going around Christian circles on Facebook that relates to this.

Ok I’m saying it. Because it’s too important not to. What is happening in Christianity? More and more of our outspoken leaders or influencers who were once “faces” of the faith are falling away. And at the same time they are being very vocal and bold about it. Shockingly they still want to influence others (for what purpose?)as they announce that they are leaving the faith. I’ll state my conclusion, then I’ll state some rebuttals to statements I’ve read by some of them. Firstly, I never judge people outside of my faith. Even if they hate religion or Christianity. That is not my place and I have many friends who disagree with my religion and that is 100% fine with me. However, when it comes to people within my faith, there must be a measure of loyalty and friendship and accountability to each other and the Word of God.

My conclusion for the church(all of us Christians): We must STOP making worship leaders and thought leaders or influencers or cool people or “relevant” people the most influential people in Christendom. (And yes that includes people like me!) I’ve been saying for 20 years(and seemed probably quite judgmental to some of my peers) that we are in a dangerous place when the church is looking to 20 year old worship singers as our source of truth. We now have a church culture that learns who God is from singing modern praise songs rather than from the teachings of the Word. I’m not being rude to my worship leader friends (many who would agree with me) in saying that singers and musicians are good at communicating emotion and feeling. We create a moment and a vehicle for God to speak. However, singers are not always the best people to write solid bible truth and doctrine. Sometimes we are too young, too ignorant of scripture, too unaware, or too unconcerned about the purity of scripture and the holiness of the God we are singing to. Have you ever considered the disrespect of singing songs to God that are untrue of His character?

I have a few specific thoughts and rebuttals to statements made by recently disavowed church influencers…first of all, I am stunned that the seemingly most important thing for these leaders who have lost their faith is to make such a bold new stance. Basically saying, “I’ve been living and preaching boldly something for 20 years and led generations of people with my teachings and now I no longer believe it..therefore I’m going to boldly and loudly tell people it was all wrong while I boldly and loudly lead people in to my next truth.” I’m perplexed why they aren’t embarrassed? Humbled? Ashamed, fearful, confused? Why be so eager to continue leading people when you clearly don’t know where you are headed?

My second thought is, why do people act like “being real” covers a multitude of sins? As if someone is courageous simply for sharing virally every thought or dark place. That’s not courageous. It’s cavalier. Have they considered the ramifications? As if they are the harbingers of truth, saying “I used to think one way and practice it and preach it, but now I’ve learned all the new truth and will start practicing and preaching it.” So the influencers become the voice for truth in whatever stage of life and whatever evolution takes place in their thinking.

Thirdly, there is a common thread running through these leaders/influencers that basically says that “no one else is talking about the REAL stuff.” This is just flatly false. I just read today in a renown worship leader’s statement, “How could a God of love send people to hell? No one talks about it.” As if he is the first person to ask this? Brother, you are not that unique. The church has wrestled with this for 1500 years. Literally. Everybody talks about it. Children talk about it in Sunday school. There’s like a billion books written on the topic. Just because you don’t get the answer you want doesn’t mean that we are unwilling to wrestle with it. We wrestle with scripture until we are transformed by the renewing of our minds.

And lastly, and most shocking imo, as these influencers disavow their faith, they always end their statements with their “new insight/new truth” that is basically a regurgitation of Jesus’s words?! It’s truly bizarre and ironic. They’ll say “I’m disavowing my faith but remember, love people, be generous, forgive others”. Ummm, why? That is actually not human nature. No child is ever born and says “I just want to love others before loving myself. I want to turn the other cheek. I want to give my money away to others in need”. Those are bible principles taught by a prophet/Priest/king of kings who wants us to live by a higher standard which is not an earthly standard, but rather the ‘Kingdom of God’ standard. Therefore if Jesus is not the truth and if the Word of God is not absolute, then by preaching Jesus’s teachings you are endorsing the words of a madman. A lunatic who said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” He also said that he was alive before Abraham, and to see him was to see God because he was one with God. So why then would a disavowed christian leader promote that “generosity is good”? How would you know “what is good” without Jesus’s teachings? And will your ideas of what is “good” be different from year to year based on your experience, culture trends, poplular opinion etc and furthermore will you continue year by year to lead others into your idea of goodness even though it is not absolute? I’m amazed that so many Christians want the benefits of the kingdom of God, but with the caveat that they themselves will be the King.

It is time for the church to rediscover the preeminence of the Word. And to value the teaching of the Word. We need to value truth over feeling. Truth over emotion. And what we are seeing now is the result of the church raising up influencers who did not supremely value truth who have led a generation who also do not believe in the supremacy of truth. And now those disavowed leaders are proudly still leading and influencing boldly AWAY from the truth.

Is it any wonder that some of our disavowed Christian leaders are letting go of the absolute truth of the Bible and subsequently their lives are falling apart? Further and further they are sinking in the sea all the while shouting “now I’ve found the truth! Follow me!!” Brothers and sisters in the faith all around the world, pastors, teachers, worship leaders, influencers…I implore you, please please in your search for relevancy for the gospel, let us NOT find creative ways to shape Gods word into the image of our culture by stifling inconvenient truths. But rather let us hold on even tighter to the anchor of the living Word of God. For He changes NOT. “The grass withers and the flowers fade away, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8)

Very good insight overall. Emotionalism based on “how you feel in your relationship with God” that is so prevalent in modern Churchianity is not a good way to base your foundation on God.

These people have rose to the positions that they were in on virtue of their God-given talent, but their foundation was shaky. They knew a lot about God, but they didn’t know God. Their talents count carry them to the positions they were in, the popularity, success, and fame, but when push comes to shove with the world it was too easy to be seduced by the world because they did not have a foundation.

They were the seed that fell on the rocky soil.

Matthew 13:1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

They sprang up quickly and brightly but withered without a root.

In fact, this is most people in the Church today as Christianity becomes more and more unpopular. This has been the trend in the Church for decades. I’m surprised it has taken this long for more high profile leaders to leave faith to be honest.

 

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79 Responses to “Losing the faith”

  1. Just wanted to comment that I’ve always enjoyed your blog + comments in other spaces.

  2. Sharkly says:

    Damned thespians! Pansies, players, performers, and portrayers! There is good reason they were formerly excommunicated and refused burial in church graveyards, and condemned by the early church fathers. They are not to be counted among the saints to begin with. Sirach 9:4 is variously translated to wisely discourage men from association with female performers.(singers, musicians, dancers and acrobats) They live for the applause of men and women, they long to be idolized. Christians should get degrees in something that teaches truth, not just fanciful self-aggrandizement. Thespians are lost in so many ways, their profession is full of fraud and deceit designed to indulge our sensuality. Shirking real work, those unstable souls are beguiled to seek applause from this perishing world instead of reward in the eternal world to come. They are so faithlessly unaware of being surrounded by so great a cloud of true witnesses, that they instead seek out the stage of a theatre, tangible to the unbelieving, in a life aimed at the deadly sins of slothfulness and vainglory. I don’t respect these sort of exhibitionist parasites who don’t contribute to their fellow creatures by exercising real trades, but instead bear the serpent’s tantalizing fruit of sensual amusement well saturated with the debauched spirit of their own immorality. One member of Hellsong is now so clearly manifest as profligate in his apostasy. Don’t be deceived and defrauded by the rest of the profiteering “Christian” music and theatre business, and don’t promote it, promote God’s word, righteousness, virtue, and sound doctrine instead.

  3. Novaseeker says:

    The elephant in the room is that most of these people are not “losing their faith” for no reason. There is a catalyst. And that catalyst, in almost all cases, is the contradiction between (1) Christian teaching about sexuality, (2) the secular world’s view on sexuality and (3) they personally deciding that they feel closer to (2) than to (1). That feeling leads them to question. Some of them stay in Christianity and end up in the sexrev churches like the ECUSA or the ELCA or maybe the odd liberal evangelical or baptist congregation. But others, once they conclude that Christian teaching about sexuality is wrong, can’t abide by a “modified” Christianity, but instead the credibility of the entire thing goes away … perhaps because they are honest enough with themselves so as to understand that the sexuality teachings are not peripheral, as liberal Christians tend to think, but central to Christian understanding of life itself.

    Once someone gets to that point, you can’t really do much to keep them around.

    Certainly the tack this Cooper guy is taking (why bother with forgiveness, that comes from Christ, if you don’t believe in Christianity, why would you even ?!?!?!?!?!) is a road to nowhere other than getting laughed out of the room. The issue there is that because Christianity was the “prior” dispensation in this culture, there is an overhang of general Christian values (emphases on kindness, respect, charity, love, forgiveness) and that overhang is very socially influential. Almost noone disagrees with any of those, and the reality is that they don’t need to believe in Jesus or go to Church in order to believe and follow those values more or less as well as any faithful and devout Christian does — we all know that from what we see with our own eyes. Where the difference lies, of course, is in the realm of “personal holiness” and the “personal morality” demands that the Church makes on people — with the main problem being sex. The sexual revolution changed the culture when it comes to what people generally think is OK and not OK sexually. The rest of the Christian “values overhang” remains and is fine with people, but the Christian sexual teachings are not, because they conflict directly and violently with the values of the sexual revolution.

    So if you’re going to criticize people for still believing in love and forgiveness after apostatizing, you will get roundly laughed at, because most everyone in the culture assents to those values, whether they are good at embodying them or not. There is no conflict there. The conflict comes in personal sanctity and holiness and that is where the real issue lies — and it is a real conflict, one that can’t be solved other than through (1) behaving counterculturally, (2) embracing moral heresy a la the ECUSA or (3) apostasy outright. A spade is a spade, after all.

  4. theasdgamer says:

    Maybe the modern church teaching on “holiness” is simply the Feminine Imperative pushing its imperatives on the church. The FI has changed the definition of adultery to include a married man having sex with a single woman, despite the fact that the ancient Hebrews didn’t see it the same way.

    Maybe the people going outside the camp are more truly believers than those staying within the camp.

    Maybe we need to get back to carefully examining what is taught us. We could start by examining the definition of words. I’ve mentioned “adultery”–and “fornication” also needs to be examined. Is the current church definition of fornication in line with what the apostles and early church believed about it? Maybe the current definition is also the FI pushing its imperatives on the church.

  5. Hescominsoon says:

    Christianity is not becoming unpopular..CHURCHIANITY is showing itself to be the empty, satanic, pack of lies it has always been.

  6. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    When something is infinitely valuable, one should expect counterfeits, swindlers and con-men. The true gospel which leads to the kingdom of heaven is of so great a value that a man would sell all that he has to gain it, he would lose his own life to find his life. The gospel of cheap-grace tells a man he can keep all his pearls and be handed the pearl of great price at no cost, no repentance, no obedience. The gospel of “no obedience” allows him to eschew God’s design for sexuality and swap it out with his his own wisdom. Soon such a man, if honest, realizes he is his own lord and he has a Christless faith. The trail of sexual demise leads from covenant to feelings of love to consent. The path of sexual apostasy marks the signposts of complete apostasy. The man of God must shield himself from the worldliness of the church, the deviance of culture and the relentless onslaught of feminism in all its forms. Such a man will neither be popular nor prosperous but he may hope to hear his Lord proclaim “Well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of Lord”. In the meantime he counts the testing of his faith as more precious than gold. Opposition to feminism and cultural decay provides many opportunities for his faith to be tested. By testing the counterfeits will be exposed the swindlers stripped and the men of faith proven.

  7. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    It’s not all about church. I found this yesterday and realized that it is not about climate change, it is about making an institution unfriendly to men.

    What are women going to do when they exclude men from everything? If there are no men at church or university, will they attend? In the meanwhile, what will men do? Found alternate institutions?

  8. @fuzzie:

    I’ve normally used this in other contexts, but the proper answer is “let them starve”. As for what will happen, we’ll build new institutions. Nearly every Institution that’s been “disrupted” is imminently replaceable or is already in the process of being replaced.

  9. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Looking Glass,
    I can see your point, but it looks as if they will take over every institution that we build to replace the ones they took over previously. I can see it being endless. It kind of kills all incentive.

  10. lastmod says:

    Looking Glass

    In 2013, when the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) openly allowed and encouraged gay youths and gay Scoutmasters / Cubmasters et al………every ‘real man in the room’ was gonna jput their son in and join, and help and volunteer with a new organization called ‘Trail Life’

    In 2016 when the BSA announced girls would be allowed to join (that is when I as a very dedicated Scoutmaster, resigned, turned my uniform and Wood Badge beeds / neckerchief in), everyone was gonna ‘boycott’ the BSA and put their son in Trail Life, and give their time, and talent and resources into it.

    Well, now here we are in 2019. Nationwide membership has flatlined at Trail Life with about 24-26 thousand members nationwide (including the leaders / volunteers). It’s faith based, so that means that the ‘church’ made it into indirectly a ‘bible study for young and teen boys’ that meets once a week and does real ‘manly’ things like have a bible study, homework “packets” to do concerning the bible, spineless…safe and ineffective activities and outings (wouldn’t want to make it too challenging, we want all the boys to succceed). The materials were designed by “youth pastors” and christian men who want boys to grow in to being ‘just-like-jesus’ and of course the helicopter church mommies had a say in putting this together. The materials are geared for a person in the church that charters Trail Life to follow a “syllabus” meaning, anyone-can-do-it…..anyone with passion to inspire, lead, have fun and grow young boys and teens would be squelched quickly (any initiative in church that upsurs the pastor and the in-crowd is stomped on immediately). The outings are AGAIN, ten years behind the times. Church AGAIN takes any idea for an organization, TRIES to match it to the world, stamps “jesus” all over it, calls it “christian” and then like a spoled little boy…stamps his foots “but, but we have programs JUST LIKE THE WORLD! How come people don’t want to join????”

    Realtionships again. Church and the big shots again more concerned with confession of the mouth for Jesus, than their moral, mortal, mental life……or even STRIVING to live it. The boys have Jesus now! It’s okay to be a mouth breather, not challenged, not pushed, not walked with on a real deep level. God just loves-them-as-they-are. They look and are silly by copying the world, and their programs show it.

    The problem lies again in relationships. Something the church doesn’t want unless you are the “gifted” and “good looking” and have “the right gifts”

    Other than that, come to our youth program we’re just like the BSA before the devil took it over!!!! Yet, looking at what Trail Life offers…..better to camp on your own with your dad, grandpa, or some other adult male role model than be stifled in a youth program like this.

    No one is building anything worthwhile.

  11. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Looking Glass,
    I believe the “let them starve” approach is the only one left to us that is effective. Men can do without women, but women need men. The government is a poor substitute.

  12. @ jason

    I could go on, but this has been at the bottom for a LONG time…..and now that’s it’s filtering up, doesn’t surprise me a bit. This is why ‘biblical manhood’ will eat itself. There is only one, monkey clique allowed, and its just like high school….and according to the sphere only maybe 100 or so people are going to be in heaven, and their familes…..and Rollo of course, because you know…….they are all so saintly and righteous and JUDGMENTAL more and more people drift away, and the stakes are upped and now the upper escheleons of this church pyramid scheme are eating itself.

    No one claims this.

    Any of your posts with false statements like this will be removed.

  13. Derek Ramsey says:

    “No one claims this.”

    FWIW, I agree with Jason about the “saintly and righteous and judgmental” part. I would add legalistic to the list. A lot of this leads to hypocrisy as well. It is no wonder then that people fall away from the church or that the church in ineffective.

    “There is only one, monkey clique allowed, and its just like high school”

    I follow a blog of an atheist who de-converted. This is exactly the complaint that such people have. I think most people have to leave the faith to see this. Few see it from the inside. I follow the blog of a Christian who is like a stranger in his own religion. I mirror that experience.

    Do you think Jason is a raving lunatic? It’s revealing that you think his statements are lies.

  14. elspeth says:

    @ lastmod:

    I haven’t experienced Trail Life first hand, but we are friends with several families whose sons (along with their dads) are very active in Trail Life.

    The way we understand it, the troops do lots of outdoor and practical life activities that are very similar or at least parallel to the things offered by BSA. I think Trail Life’s biggest issues are related to publicity. I only learned of its existence in the past two years despite being heavily involved in Christian homeschooling groups.

    Also, we know a couple of BSA families who are connected to a troop with a very conservative troop leader so rather than withdraw from a troop where their boys have been involved for several years, they’ve decided to trust their troop leader and keep an ear to the ground for any untoward developments. We don’t even live in a conservative area, so I suspect in more “red” parts of the country a lot of Christian BSA families have taken the same approach.

    Being willing to sever ties with organizations where there is longstanding involvement is something Christians will need to come to terms with in the future. The national policy of organizations does matter, regardless of our ability to establish Christian bubbles notwithstanding.

  15. Derek Ramsey says:

    “…a lot of Christian BSA families have taken the same approach.

    My boys attend Boy Scouts (we all still call it that). Despite living in the heavily populated suburban northeastern U.S., there is no troop of girl Boy Scouts (or if there is, it has nothing to do with us). I have not looked into the BSA numbers, but I imagine this is not uncommon. I care about what the national organization does, but it hasn’t really affected the lower parts in any meaningful way. If it did, it would probably be time to move on to another organization or another set of activities.

  16. lastmod says:

    No one claims it, but man oh man it is sure implied

  17. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    If it is any consolation, I have run into it elsewhere. Looking at it objectively, what is the point of chest thumping measuring masculinity over the internet?

  18. @ Derek

    FWIW, I agree with Jason about the “saintly and righteous and judgmental” part. I would add legalistic to the list. A lot of this leads to hypocrisy as well. It is no wonder then that people fall away from the church or that the church in ineffective.

    Please specify whether you think any or many of these statements are true:

    1. This blog or I am like this
    2. All commenters here are like this
    3. Some commenters here are like this
    4. The general manosphere is like this
    5. The general Church is like this

    I agree with 3, 4 and 5. I do not agree that is representative of all commenters here or myself. Few commenters are like this, although they can be the loudest.

    Jason continually makes blanket statements implying that I am like this and that all commenters here are like this. This is false.

    Rollo actually has claimed he is a “Christian,” but I doubt that based on the recommendations of his “secular” blog. I disagree with Rollo on most things, except he has a fairly accurate depiction of the nature of women. Jason seems to take any agreement with Rollo by commenters or myself like he is some sort of savior.

  19. lastmod says:

    Rollo is a christian? well on what counts for being a christian in the man-o-sphere today he probably is the best one to emulate. My observations over the years in the christian sphere…he’s quoted more than the bible. talked in more reverence than people living the walk….or heavens…..at least striving towards it. Every pastor is a ‘cuckservative’ and ‘churchianity’ is rampant…but all the churches you select elite go to are not like this….but shhhhhhh no tellin’ anyone where these churches actually are 😉 Love and scripture quoted but little or no action…only used to shuddup anyone who questions….or when its appropriate to cloak your own shortcomings in this….but that “cuckservative over there?” Well, he’s doomed. The reformed *sl*t” well, she didn’t mean it, and she’s damaged good, has a “high n count” but when more than a few………….a lot more than a few christian guys had “their” turn with her, well…………that’s “different understand…jesus forgave me”

    You all have helped or have actually had a hand in building a wall around eden, and changing the rules, the gates and the attitudes to get entry. hence why a lot of rank and file men…..don’t really like you (christians). the “elect” seem to be only a few of you and frankly many just don’t trust you. I let a TON of this slide over the decades in church, and in Christianity. I took the ‘tude of “Worry about YOU not THEM”

    It got tiring. Hearing over and over from these self-righteous folks about “what-I-am-not-doing-enough-of” while at the same time the slight of hand that applied me and countless other, but not yourself. You will then “demand” EXACTLY when and where you did such a thing (which I did once on this blog…and then it was ‘oh, yeah…I did…but that doesn’t change the fact that…………’)

    Ugly arrogance that you don’t even give all the cuckservatives you criticize a chance at.

    you guys are actually fortunate that in some comments I am here because as a former christian (no, i am not out fornicating, cussing, using drugs, flirting, murdering people, running over people, nor cheating on my taxes….) I am actually easier on you than the staunch atheist or agnostic…which doesn’t matter to you anyways……..

    In the end, the faith couldn’t answer the hard questions, and gave me platitudes and made me feel bad for just being me, with no room for growth unless I accepted the holy book of rollo or some other contradictory statement.

    in closing. red pilled chirstianity is only for the “elect” that have been “deemed as such” not by god or jesus….but by a ‘clique’ of self-righteous men who have all the answers for the masses…..and when those answers don’t work? You’re bitter. You’re angry. You didn’t do this at this time and use this tool at this moment……..

  20. @ Jason

    This is exactly what I mean by you stating false things.

    Rollo is a christian? well on what counts for being a christian in the man-o-sphere today he probably is the best one to emulate. My observations over the years in the christian sphere…he’s quoted more than the bible. talked in more reverence than people living the walk….or heavens…..at least striving towards it. Every pastor is a ‘cuckservative’ and ‘churchianity’ is rampant…but all the churches you select elite go to are not like this….but shhhhhhh no tellin’ anyone where these churches actually are 😉 Love and scripture quoted but little or no action…only used to shuddup anyone who questions….or when its appropriate to cloak your own shortcomings in this….but that “cuckservative over there?” Well, he’s doomed. The reformed *sl*t” well, she didn’t mean it, and she’s damaged good, has a “high n count” but when more than a few………….a lot more than a few christian guys had “their” turn with her, well…………that’s “different understand…jesus forgave me”

    1. No, I doubt Rollo is Christian because of his secular blog.

    2. No, Rollo is not quoted on this blog any really. Perhaps by some commenters, notably asd.

    3. I disagree with game.

    4. Cuckservative has never appeared on this blog at all. Many Churches (usually the bigger ones) do not follow the Bible though or at least in word only.

    5. Little to no action? I’ve written a book and many posts on action. Conveniently linked in the categorized lists of posts.

    6. No Christian here advocates fornication

    7. Men and women have character issues (premarital sex not withstanding) that eliminate themselves from being good marriage prospects.

    I’m not going to go over any of your other paragraphs. This is your last warning before permanent moderation.

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jason, despair is a bad thing. Physically it will suppress your immune system. Emotionally it keeps you in mix of anger, sadness and frustration, plus sometimes self-pity. From reading your comments in various places it sure does look to me that you are in a state of despair, and it is hurting you in multiple ways. It’s something that needs to be stopped. Seriously, I’ve seen men on a track like this before in my family / social circle and it does not go anywhere good.

    I’ll leave it to others, starting with Deep Strength, to quote the Bible on hope vs. despair. I am certain there’s more than one such quote.

  22. lastmod says:

    When you *do* put me in moderation, and sometime in the future when talking with your church bros on how to ‘bring more men into real biblical masculinity / to the church’ remember the dude you threw into permanent moderation because you “were not going over any other of your paragraphs” and spent more time defending yourself on what a great christian you, and what you do or have done. You’re exactly why men leave, men don’t want to come, and why too many feel it’s a club 😉

  23. Novaseeker says:

    Jason —

    People have bent over backwards trying to help you on various blogs over an extended period of time. The idea that everyone you come across is critical, clubby, exclusionary and smug is a creature of your own mind … it certainly doesn’t reflect what I have seen in how a lot of people have reached out to you over an extended period of time on different blogs.

    Invariably, your response to this has been relentlessly and invariably negative, critical, self-defeating and fatalistic. You have generally spent much more energy criticizing everyone else — both people who have reached out to try to help you and others who have been more critical and snarky (it’s the internet, that’s how the internet is, we all know that) alike. Everyone is a hypocrite. Everyone is a perfectionist. Everyone throws the bible at you, or expects you to know the bible, or makes arguments from the bible that require effort. Everyone was always perfectly successful in everything he has tried to do and therefore his help is irrelevant or misplaced. Everyone cares more about X than they do about God, with “X” being filled in by “game”, “respect”, “success”, “Rollo”, “scriptural knowledge”, “looking down on others”, “their own perfection”, and on and on and on. You also generalize everyone together, throw out general accusations and criticisms that strike you about everyone — people on this blog, people on other blogs, people in your real life, people in the Salvation Army — and it all gets slurred together as one list of grievances, criticisms and negativity. This has been your reaction, again, over a long period of time, regardless of the kind of interaction you get, and regardless of the blog and its audience (and no, the audience is not the same everywhere, as everyone also is aware).

    I mean this in a constructive way, Jason — you’re obviously quite troubled. That’s ok — many of us go through periods in life when we are troubled. You should do yourself a favor and seek some professional help to assist you in working through your troubles — not people on an internet forum, here or elsewhere, and not venting your frustrations at the internet either as a way to avoid actually addressing your troubles with someone who is trained to help you do that. You really need to get to the bottom of what is the source of your overall negativity, and address that — regardless of anything else.

  24. lastmod says:

    Gives Nova a gold star.

    Bent over backwards. Offered help. Some have. Some genuine. One I know of has been. Bending over backwards to you and other with the advice means the following.

    *learn game
    *move to a third world country
    *god doesn’t promise you a wife
    *serve god

    When I just “die” I’ll get relief. I have a few more decades to just ramble through it. I hedged my bet on christianity after I got cleaned up. I dove in. I strived. pushed. challenged myself. family and friends could believe the change in me. I couldn’t either.

    I ignored for years all the hypocites…..thinking and praying….well, your will be done lord. then I noticed the hypocrites were rewarded. actually a lot. actually a ton. i then noticed *I* was constantly reminded by these same folks about my past and why I wasn’t ready for anything…wasn’t worthy, or holy, or prepared, or man enough, or good enough, or not smart enough.

    I believed them. I was humble. I kept striving.

    Then after my promotion into a real career again…..my former employer the Salvation Army told me “i wasn’t ready for responsibility” and Iproved them wrong. I was told “with your past, you would not be good for a leadership position in our church, god will tell you (meaning US) when you’re ready. I decided to become a Scoutmaster with the BSA. It consumed ten years of my life and I was a fine Scoutmaster. I then was fed the lie by christians “oh, you think you are better than us……” and out came more about “my past” and how I will always be that person….no matter how hard I strive.

    I then lost my father (old age). I then lost my brother (Downs Syndrome, pround health challenges…been sick for a long time). christians told me that god had “blessed” me because I had brother like this (but I thought I was a filthy former drug addict who couldn’t handle responsibility?????)

    A billion more questions came……and here with the real men in the faith…….the encouragement I was hoping for……and perhaps did see glimpses of…..was squashed by the arrogance and the sheer (cough) genius I was surrounded by and agin reminded of: what I will never have. will never be…..and christianity is suffering, and in heaven it will be great.

    no thanks.

  25. Derek Ramsey says:

    @DS

    “Please specify whether you think any or many of these statements are true”

    I want to be very careful in how I respond, because I fear misunderstanding. I’ll begin by saying this: I read this blog because you seem more rational and reasonable than other manosphere hosts, mostly tolerating contrary thought with charity and forbearance.

    Jason seems to have a general beef against the manosphere and the church entire (items #3 through #5). I agree with that. I don’t know why he lumps you in personally. Responses by commenters here are often loving and caring. He would do well to quote specific things you’ve said and respond to them directly, rather than talk in generalities.

    But you asked me whether I think this blog is guilty of some combination of being sanctimonious, self-righteous, judgmental, legalistic, or hypocritical. I’m not sure I can answer that question without falling afoul of Matthew 7:3-5, and I’m hesitant to do so. I don’t want to be the very person I criticize. I think all I’ll say is this: I do find some of the scriptural analysis on this site to be legalistic.

    “Jason continually makes blanket statements implying that I am like this and that all commenters here are like this. This is false.”

    I was only speaking specifically about the comment of Jason’s that you partially quoted (you seem to have deleted his original). I may have missed them, but I didn’t see any lies in the what you quoted. Here it is again:

    “I could go on, but this has been at the bottom for a LONG time…..and now that’s it’s filtering up, doesn’t surprise me a bit. This is why ‘biblical manhood’ will eat itself. There is only one, monkey clique allowed, and its just like high school….and according to the sphere only maybe 100 or so people are going to be in heaven, and their familes…..and Rollo of course, because you know…….they are all so saintly and righteous and JUDGMENTAL more and more people drift away, and the stakes are upped and now the upper escheleons of this church pyramid scheme are eating itself.

    I agree with the clique nature of Christianity and its theology, as well as the manosphere (maybe even this blog to a more limited extent). There is a general legalistic sense that you have to share x, y, and z doctrines or else you are doing it wrong. Or put another way, you can be having great success and be a fine Christian, but it doesn’t count if you don’t hold the approved doctrines or you make the wrong kind of mistakes. Or conversely, if you are not having success, it must mean you are a bad Christian.

    If I wanted to, I could probably defend this point of view in-depth or point out stumbling blocks. But I don’t have the time or inkling to criticize you personally. You have not wronged me in any way, so I won’t make specific accusations. Bottom line: the opinion you quoted is just an opinion. Maybe he’s wrong, but it doesn’t strike me as a bunch of lies.

  26. @ Derek

    I want to be very careful in how I respond, because I fear misunderstanding. I’ll begin by saying this: I read this blog because you seem more rational and reasonable than other manosphere hosts, mostly tolerating contrary thought with charity and forbearance.

    Jason seems to have a general beef against the manosphere and the church entire (items #3 through #5). I agree with that. I don’t know why he lumps you in personally. Responses by commenters here are often loving and caring. He would do well to quote specific things you’ve said and respond to them directly, rather than talk in generalities.

    But you asked me whether I think this blog is guilty of some combination of being sanctimonious, self-righteous, judgmental, legalistic, or hypocritical. I’m not sure I can answer that question without falling afoul of Matthew 7:3-5, and I’m hesitant to do so. I don’t want to be the very person I criticize. I think all I’ll say is this: I do find some of the scriptural analysis on this site to be legalistic.

    Fair enough.

    I can see how my position on divorce (that I’ve gone over in like 10+ posts) and some other topics can come off “legalistic” to some, but I’m just quoting what Jesus/God say: “What God has put together let no man separate” and “separate or reconcile” only.

    That’s why I think the Catholic and Orthodox position of “sacramental marriage” is important because it’s based on confirming covenants. If unbelievers divorced and remarried and came to Christ, they could confirm their current marriage. Christians who know that marriage is permanent and still do it are the ones condemned.

    If you have other examples I’m all ears.

    I was only speaking specifically about the comment of Jason’s that you partially quoted (you seem to have deleted his original). I may have missed them, but I didn’t see any lies in the what you quoted. Here it is again:

    “I could go on, but this has been at the bottom for a LONG time…..and now that’s it’s filtering up, doesn’t surprise me a bit. This is why ‘biblical manhood’ will eat itself. There is only one, monkey clique allowed, and its just like high school….and according to the sphere only maybe 100 or so people are going to be in heaven, and their familes…..and Rollo of course, because you know…….they are all so saintly and righteous and JUDGMENTAL more and more people drift away, and the stakes are upped and now the upper escheleons of this church pyramid scheme are eating itself.

    I don’t see it. These are clearly false:

    1. There is only one, monkey clique allowed, and its just like high school

    Cane, the late Zippy, myself and others are anti-game. Dalrock and a few others are pro-“moral” game.

    Asdgamer advocates some of the fringer stuff (flirting with other women when married which I think is morally wrong), and he’s one of the loudest advocates around here. I disagree with much of what he advocates. There’s no “one monkey clique” at all.

    2. and according to the sphere only maybe 100 or so people are going to be in heaven, and their familes and Rollo of course, because you know

    No one has claimed this. Ever. No one has equated the ability to be successful with women as “godliness” or “salvation.”

    I already stated that I think Rollo is a not a Christian even though he claims to be.

    Pursuing godliness *may* help in some certain circumstances (e.g. leadership roles in the Church). But it’s not guaranteed.

    3. they are all so saintly and righteous and JUDGMENTAL more and more people drift away, and the stakes are upped and now the upper escheleons of this church pyramid scheme are eating itself.

    I have no clue what this even has to do with Harris or Sampson or associated manosphere blogs since it’s comparing two highly disparate groups.

    I agree with the clique nature of Christianity and its theology, as well as the manosphere (maybe even this blog to a more limited extent). There is a general legalistic sense that you have to share x, y, and z doctrines or else you are doing it wrong. Or put another way, you can be having great success and be a fine Christian, but it doesn’t count if you don’t hold the approved doctrines or you make the wrong kind of mistakes. Or conversely, if you are not having success, it must mean you are a bad Christian.

    I don’t think I’ve seen that around here, but I have seen it in Christianity in general. I’m very pro-freedom in Christ as seen by piecing likes this (which ironically only you commented on since it’s not a commonly held position).

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2019/01/24/headship-in-concept-and-practice/

  27. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Nova,
    Advising a man to seek professional help with men’s issues is a truly horrible idea. There are very few counselors out there that are not completely given over to feminism. The best advice along those lines I could give would be to seek the the advice of Tom Golden. He’s in the DC area but he may know someone in the SF Bay area.

    Jason,
    It is just an errant thought, but could your addiction be trying to get its claws back into you?

  28. lastmod says:

    Jason,
    It is just an errant thought, but could your addiction be trying to get its claws back into you?

    Answer: no

    been clean and sober with no relapes ever since January 2015. I still smoke an occasional cigarette, usually when camping in the woods. I never smoked in Scout or Salvation Army uniform.
    I know, I know…….it’s impossible for an addict to stay clean and sober. and they are horrible people who can *never* be trusted with anything. They need to be in lifelong counseling and pay people 150-200 bux in hour to *prove* how they are fighting this everyday. They need to be on meds, or thrown in prison forever……….no redemption for them.

    I have not had a dream of “doing drugs” in over a decade. I was scared straight in the end. Jesus had nothing to do with it. *I* did it. Following Jesus in the end just made me more ashamed of my past and how anything good was from him, and anything bad was from my *sinful* nature (everyone else seems to get this forgiveness thing, and grace, and mercy…..and rewards) and from my past that I still had to *deal with* evidently.

    It’s a control thing. Pastors, priests and most in church hate a man that can overcome a terrible thing like addiction. You can scream all day on how “Christ has forgiven you” but they won’t forgive. They want you stuck forever in suffering for a past you can never change. It takes focus off their sins….and then we go into the debates about grades and shades of sin…..praying to Mary, facing a north wall with a picture of a saint on it and “praying” to it for help……..or how “we’re all broken” but “in heaven all will great”

    in the meantime I have to live in shame with all these supposedly “set apart” people.

    I am not saying it was easy. I am still paying the price for choices made, and I suppose I always will. What I will NOT live with concerning this matter is that somehow, someway I am less of a person. christians are great for this….that is unless, you know……you’re the pastors son, or the daughter / son of someone *important* in a church……then the coffers tspirtiual or otherwise are opened to “anything we as a body can do to save this person”

    I was wrong. I am ashamed. I lost time. How many times do I have to say it? In christian culture you may want to change, but *they* won’t let you. I encourage anyone with drug or alcohol addiction to get routine back into their life. MOVE away from the old crowd. Attend AA / NA and attend a smoking one…..the convos get REAL in there. Accept the higher power to get you through for the fact that the “great unknown” can be theraputic, but stay away from church…..these people will try to hurt you. Especially men in a “mens group”

    They hate success of men that have beaten something they have never expirienced.

  29. Derek Ramsey says:

    @DS

    Firstly, quoting what Jesus said is independent from legalism. Let me use an example to illustrate the general concept. As I stated here, one can legalistically take the “no divorce except for marital unfaithfulness” to mean “divorce is perfectly fine if she was unfaithful”, quoting Jesus while still getting it wrong.

    Secondly, you can even understand it exactly right and still get it wrong. There are quite a few manosphere bloggers who divorced and remarried. I can, at the same time, condemn remarriage as going against God’s plan while not assuming that God holds them in contempt. In other words, I don’t have to play God. He sets standards, has declared what those standards are, but he’s the judge. Legalism tends to take the place of judgment away from God. If someone remarries against God’s plan, what does it even mean to “repent” of that? Certainly it doesn’t mean they have to divorce them. The proverbial damage is already done.

    Ok, let’s examine Jason’s complaints about Christianity:

    “one, monkey clique allowed”

    It’s about exclusion. There may be twenty different cliques at the high school lunch tables, but it’s not about how many of them their are. It’s the notion that “our group is exclusive and everyone else doesn’t matter”. Do you see what I mean? The mindset is cliquish exclusion, us vs them, in or out. It doesn’t mean everyone holds the same views, but that ‘everyone’ is cliquish. It’s very black & white.

    “according to the sphere only maybe 100 or so people are going to be in heaven”

    This is hyperbole.

    As much as a heretic as I am, I really have no home. As far as those in charge are concerned, I’m not entering heaven. I have not said the magic words or done the right things. I’m not really a “True Christian”. That sort of thing. Again, it’s about exclusion. You see this denominational conflicts (both past and current) and in the manosphere. Each group condemns the other and claims that they are not going to heaven (or some lesser, but equally judgmental claim).

    “they are all so saintly and righteous and JUDGMENTAL more and more people drift away, and the stakes are upped and now the upper escheleons of this church pyramid scheme are eating itself.”

    I couldn’t understand the latter half of this quote, since I didn’t read all of his original comment, so I’m not sure what is meant here. But the first part is the natural conclusion to what was just said. The exclusionary doctrines and clique-like membership is driven by high levels of legalistic doctrines and self-righteous/sanctimonious views on those doctrines. All of this leads to being judgmental, or at least appearance of such.

    In short, that’s how I read Jason’s comments. If I interpreted them wrong, he can correct me.

    “I don’t think I’ve seen that around here”

    I’ve spent some time listening to those who deconvert. I don’t consider their reasoning to be completely valid (else I’d be the one deconverting), but I listen nonetheless. Some of their criticisms are legitimate. Either way, I suspect they’d find much on your site to be a stumbling-block. That doesn’t mean that you’re doing anything wrong, per se, but it doesn’t mean you are effective either. And when I say “you”, I’ll include my own highly ineffectual online writings in that.

  30. Derek Ramsey says:

    “Advising a man to seek professional help with men’s issues is a truly horrible idea. There are very few counselors out there that are not completely given over to feminism.”

    This right here is the problem. The manosphere is a resource for sure, but it’s very, very limited in the scope of what it can provide. Most of that is because it is on the internet. Unfortunately there is no general solution as it would require revolutionizing the modern church. To wit:

    “…in the meantime I have to live in shame with all these supposedly “set apart” people.”

    He’s not completely wrong about this. It wasn’t very long ago that Dalrock posted a suggestion about publicly shaming single mothers on their wedding day. This was one of the more overt examples of what Jason and I have been talking about.

  31. feeriker says:

    I’ve said this before elsewhere, but the problem isn’t Christianity; it’s churchianity, the worldly fraud in a skin suit that has almost completely replaced real Christianity as an institution, that is causing so much pain and destruction. This, I believe, is what Jason –like millions of other men– has a problem with, and very rightly so.

    A true body of believers is one composed of people who genuinely guide every aspect of their lives on a Scriptural basis and who are truly born again and convicted of the Holy Spirit, who bear no resemblance to those in the world – and thus no resemblance to what passes for “the Church” today. Primary among its mission would be to bear the burdens of their brethren as Jesus commanded- the whole “love thy neighbor as thyself” principle, which Jesus made clear was kind of important.

    Sadly, the odds of encountering a body of true believers, those who, humanly imperfect and flawed as they are, strive to live as Jesus commanded those who follow Him to live, are as rare as snowdrifts in the Arabian Desert. This is why those of us men who seek genuine truth, fellowship, and brotherhood from other believers who strive to walk the talk often reach the edge of despair. The sense of isolation, the nagging sense of anxiety just beneath the surface that we truly are alone in the walk we struggle to maintain, can be overwhelming, no matter how much we want to lean on the Lord and the Lord alone for our strength. Not for nothing does the Apostle Paul tell us not to forsake the assembly (for we ARE our brother’s spiritual keeper), but what if the only visible evidence of “the assembly” is a clique of heretical (or apostate) poseurs doing Satan’s bidding, by default if not by intent? Hardly what Paul had in mind when he wrote his epistle, and certainly not a body that nourishes the faith.

    THIS is why I can’t get upset at what Jason writes, no matter how misdirected much of his anger might seem. The pain he has suffered could probably have been greatly alleviated and the circumstances that have led him to the point of walking away from the faith could very likely have been avoided had he been blessed with being able to assemble with true believers rather than world-worshiping poseurs.

    TL;DR version: we’re all, each of us, one catastrophic life event, or one encounter with toxic churchianity away from potentially being in Jason’s shoes.

  32. Jacob says:

    The Old Testament is full of laments. More of it I say. Empassioned lament is rare in the feelzgood church of today. There would be more shame over churchian hypocrisy if there was more of it.

    We don’t need to be like that in the Christian Manosphere. Wounded and desperate men are everywhere, taking a drink at the last chance saloon. Better they cry out their pain before the saints, bloody words and all, than seek solace in the wilderness. There’s only death out there.

    May God meet the wounded and desperate, heal them, guide them and give them hope. Praise Him for putting us in their path, may it be as far from Him as they get.

  33. theasdgamer says:

    DS, what is game to you?

    “Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain…” Does this mean that women shouldn’t wear makeup? Or does it expose the limitations of youth and the limitations of game?

    I used to believe that lying is evil, but I no longer believe that. Falsely accusing someone of a crime is evil, but “white lies” aren’t, and game relies on white lies. If a lie is for the purpose of fraud or murder, then it is evil.

    Rahab lied about the Hebrew spies and was commended for it. Her lies were actually good because of the purpose. Otoh, a lot of “honesty” just tears people down and is evil. You have to look at the purpose behind lies or truth in order to know if a statement is good or evil.

    I have found that game need not ever use deceit and can be very effective without ever telling white lies.

    I believe that what the Bible calls “fornication” applies to things like homosexuality, incest, bestiality, adultery, sex with temple prostitutes, and marriage without the father’s consent, but not to premarital sex. I’m still early in changing my opinion about this and would love for someone to prove me wrong about premarital sex. Biblical examples are very persuasive to me.

  34. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Jason,
    I was told once that a good rule to go by is to avoid the conditions described by the acronym HALT. Avoid being Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired. You can add Bored to this too. This is good advice for everyone. People who give themselves over to these conditions do stupid things.
    Addictions can’t be beaten. They can be lived with, though.

  35. @ Derek

    1. Agreed.

    2.

    Secondly, you can even understand it exactly right and still get it wrong. There are quite a few manosphere bloggers who divorced and remarried. I can, at the same time, condemn remarriage as going against God’s plan while not assuming that God holds them in contempt. In other words, I don’t have to play God. He sets standards, has declared what those standards are, but he’s the judge. Legalism tends to take the place of judgment away from God. If someone remarries against God’s plan, what does it even mean to “repent” of that? Certainly it doesn’t mean they have to divorce them. The proverbial damage is already done.

    I don’t agree as I’m not exactly seeing a problem here.

    I’m posting the conclusion of my study of the Scripture on a topic on this blog. I don’t go around to other bloggers who have remarried telling them that they’re sinning. There are also several distinctions of divorce and remarriage that muddy the waters.

    It’s about exclusion. There may be twenty different cliques at the high school lunch tables, but it’s not about how many of them their are. It’s the notion that “our group is exclusive and everyone else doesn’t matter”. Do you see what I mean? The mindset is cliquish exclusion, us vs them, in or out. It doesn’t mean everyone holds the same views, but that ‘everyone’ is cliquish. It’s very black & white.

    I don’t see the bold at all. This blog was started to help men. Any man who has asked a question on this blog I have tried to answer in good faith to help them.

    if anything, the only cliquish behavior is the exclusionary aspect regarding feminism and culture. Rightly so.

    Churches are obviously a mixed bag nowadays, so I can’t say whether a particular Church is good or not.

    As much as a heretic as I am, I really have no home. As far as those in charge are concerned, I’m not entering heaven. I have not said the magic words or done the right things. I’m not really a “True Christian”. That sort of thing. Again, it’s about exclusion. You see this denominational conflicts (both past and current) and in the manosphere. Each group condemns the other and claims that they are not going to heaven (or some lesser, but equally judgmental claim).

    Again, I have not seen this at all. Though I don’t read many other manosphere blogs anymore aside from Dalrock and a few others.

    I don’t claim to know if someone is going to heaven or not as I don’t know if their soul is right with God.

    I’ve spent some time listening to those who deconvert. I don’t consider their reasoning to be completely valid (else I’d be the one deconverting), but I listen nonetheless. Some of their criticisms are legitimate. Either way, I suspect they’d find much on your site to be a stumbling-block. That doesn’t mean that you’re doing anything wrong, per se, but it doesn’t mean you are effective either. And when I say “you”, I’ll include my own highly ineffectual online writings in that.

    I’m sure this site can be a stumbling block for some, but that’s the Internet for you. The problem is that you can’t control who reads your content and what stage of life you are in.

    In person discipleship is much easier because you can generally tell when someone who is on “milk” is ready for “meat” to use Paul’s analogy.

    I’ve had many private e-mails from men thanking me for this blog. Much more than the complainers, at least, so at least it’s helping many if not most men. That’s all I can do.

  36. @ asd

    I’ve written several posts on game, linked in the categorized lists of post.

    I used to believe that lying is evil, but I no longer believe that. Falsely accusing someone of a crime is evil, but “white lies” aren’t, and game relies on white lies. If a lie is for the purpose of fraud or murder, then it is evil.

    Rahab lied about the Hebrew spies and was commended for it. Her lies were actually good because of the purpose. Otoh, a lot of “honesty” just tears people down and is evil. You have to look at the purpose behind lies or truth in order to know if a statement is good or evil.

    Strongly disagree.

    God comments the Hebrew midwives (Exodus 1) and Rahab for lying because they were saving lives. Like saving Jewish people from the Nazis.

    These “white lies” aren’t saving people’s lives. Based on God’s character, do you think “white lying” to get someone to like you / be more attracted to you is acceptable to God?

    I’d answer that with a sharp resounding no. One is clearly based in selflessness (examples in the Bible) and the other in selfishness.

    I believe that what the Bible calls “fornication” applies to things like homosexuality, incest, bestiality, adultery, sex with temple prostitutes, and marriage without the father’s consent, but not to premarital sex. I’m still early in changing my opinion about this and would love for someone to prove me wrong about premarital sex. Biblical examples are very persuasive to me.

    Paul is pretty clear:

    1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

  37. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    About remarriage, I think that Dalrock has proven a few times that, when it is off the table, women are far less likely to seek divorce.

  38. Novaseeker says:

    Remember, DS likes to push the boundaries. Married men carrying on with other women in bars — a-ok. Jesus didn’t say anything about bars, did he? Married men can have sex with anyone who isn’t their own daughter, someone else’s wife, an animal, or another guy — after all, Jesus never said you can’t have sex with an unmarried woman, did he? So there you go.

    Christianity, it is not. However, it is an example, one among many, of what happens when you put a man and a bible together and tell him that’s all there is.

  39. theasdgamer says:

    Nova, make your case. Where in the Church fathers was adultery ever applied to married men having sex with single women? Where in Mosaic Law (which was based on case law) were there ever examples of sex between married men and single women being prosecuted under the Law? Make your case.

    Otherwise, it’s far more probable that gnostics (or, if you prefer, the Feminine Imperative) have had an impact on the Church to give more power to married women vis-a-vis married men. Wouldn’t it be a real kick in the pants if your Trad Con morality was really just a variety of the old Gnosticism?

    DS, I’d argue that the passage which you reference has to do with marital obligations and is opposed to gnosticism. So what is meant by “porneia” in this passage? It’s unclear. It could be single women and it could be temple prostitutes and it could be homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, or perhaps some would say it’s masturbation. I’d be happy to listen to your case for any of them.

  40. Novaseeker says:

    ASD —

    We do not follow the law of Moses. Christ made some things looser from Mosaic law and some things harder (like marriage/divorce/adultery). And by the way he founded a Church, based on his apostles and St. Peter. And that Church has authority over all Christians, in Christ’s name. I do not have to make a case, because that is playing on your heretical Protestant playing field, which hates authority other than the one in your brain (ie, yourself, which means no authority other than your own mind) — not the right frame, so I will not enter it.

  41. @ Nova

    I think you mean asd instead of me.

  42. @ asd

    DS, I’d argue that the passage which you reference has to do with marital obligations and is opposed to gnosticism. So what is meant by “porneia” in this passage? It’s unclear. It could be single women and it could be temple prostitutes and it could be homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, or perhaps some would say it’s masturbation. I’d be happy to listen to your case for any of them.

    The point is that 1 Corinthians 7, much like Galatians 5 is talking about not to get carried away by the flesh.

    Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

    I can see in no way which pre-marital sex of any kind (man or woman) is not about the flesh rather than the Spirit.

    If you want to believe these unorthodox and non-Christian things that’s up to you. You don’t answer to me or Nova or anyone else here. You answer to God, so you had better be sure you’re right because on judgment day He’ll ask you why you thought, or believed, or did those things. I have a feeling that most of us have our pet things we try to justify that don’t line up with God’s will, but this is definitely one of them.

  43. Novaseeker says:

    DS — Yes I meant ASD. If that wasn’t clear, I clarify it here.

  44. Paul says:

    @Jason and others

    It’s a sad fact that many churches are being driven by emotionalism, and many people are never being taught what it means to be a disciple of Christ. It includes suffering. It includes self-denial. It includes giving up your life. It includes obeying God even if you don’t always understand Him. But there’s a very good reason you would be wanting to do that; because Jesus Christ has proven to be God incarnate who sacrificed Himself as a sin offering to die in our places, that we might live through Him. And in Him we find true love and true life in our spirits, being renewed by His Spirit.

    Christianity is based on faith, grounded in proof, not on “good feelings”.

    As the apostle Paul already wrote in 1 Cor 15

    “Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, And last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

    For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.”

    [..]

    “But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”

    “Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.”

  45. lastmod says:

    Listened to a podcast this morning form a larger church I went to in Fresno for their mens ministry here and there when I lived there. I liked that it actually had some “with it” activities instead of just talking about football, married men talking about how great sex is with their wives (while most of the men are single) and their daughters straight A’s and their perfect son who is “gonna be a an amzing leader”

    They spent some time discussiong Josh Harris and Marty Sampson. I was HOPING for a tiny glimpse of hope. I was actually rooting for this pastor to really lay it on about more of how the body could work with each other to prevent things like this, or how we could maybe right now…….PRAY for them in heartfelt grace. I was on the edge thinking “come on, do it pastor……a frank discussion about fame in the church and perhaps understanding some of the more issues behind this.

    Nope. He was leaning that way…….but then…..

    No prayers for them or their families. No looking at “why” this happened. It came around to “they were never saved or christian to begin with.”

    Just like the “liberals” they smear off hand every chance they get……these two men now don’t exist. They never existed in christ.

    In the next few weeks a few bigger names will come out speaking I am sure on “how they never thought Josh Harris’s book was helpful” (and they were the lone voice saying this two decades ago) and that Smapson was the one who ruined praise music and it may have been Christian but it wasn’t “Christ inspired”. Call it a hunch, in a few weeks this will be happening.

    I am in the midst of this right now, and now….I am not famous like Harris, and no I was never a riuggedly handsome christian dude with a guitar like Smapson…..but I know. I know exactly what they are going through…….and tghe church is already playing it quick to throw them both under a bus.

    On this they’ll get off easy…..countless men like myself won’t

  46. Paul says:

    I’m still early in changing my opinion about this and would love for someone to prove me wrong about premarital sex.

    Numbers 25

    “While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the Lord’s anger burned against them. [..] Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.”

    It seems to me these men indulged in sex with women they were not married to. It was quite a successful setup to entice the Israelites.

    Numbers 31

    ” “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

    Later on, both in OT and NT, quite some references to what happened occur. Even Jesus refers to it in Revelations 2:

    “Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

    and a few verses later:

    ” Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.”

    Let’s conclude sexual immorality is something to be avoided like the plague.

  47. Novaseeker says:

    “they were never saved or christian to begin with.”

    That’s a very specific theology, and you know it. Orthodox Christianity, to take my own example (among many, both Eastern and Western) does not endorse “once saved, always saved” and its corollary “once unsaved, never saved”. All different heresies. Ugh.

  48. theasdgamer says:

    Sounds like you’re a full-blown gnostic.

  49. Novaseeker says:

    Sounds like you’re not even close to being a Christian.

  50. lastmod says:

    I personally think…..not feel…think; that this already starting of “washing their hands clean of Harris and Sampson” with statements like this is just a thing to say “we (us, the pastor, the ‘leaders’ in the church) are going to decide when you may have a gift to use, and when you may not.” and this ties in with the usual thing in church in general of “we, the big monkeys who went to seminary. know greek, and took some really good bible history classes know better than all of you…come watch the show, tithe, nod your head, enjoy the pot-luck and just remember who really has the gifts here.”

    When I read Harris’ book, I never liked it. Wasn’t a fan. I think most praise music today in church was absolutely abysmal. Nothing like the hymns I remember as a boy when my family would make the rare appearance in church (mom was a cultural COE). Probably guys like Sampson here are responsible for a lot this typs of music today.

    With that said. When the news broke on Harris, then Sampson….well, I dove in……I wanted to know why they left…….and I think (not feel), think they were both deemed / blamed for many of the “problems” in modern American Protestant christianity. Harris has had a barge ton of crticism at him for muddling and confusing dating / courting and actually marrying in the church with younger people. It turned women into waiting for The One and made men paralyzed to make a move unless he knew 10,000% that the girl would say “yes” to a date (thus amplifing the 80 / 20 that doesn’t exist…because women never, never go by looks….). The debate over modern praise has really caused contention. It burned me badly when the Salvation Army dropped the brass bands and “copied” everyone else with drums, guitar and the seven lines of verse and repeted chorus eleven times (usually MUCH more than that) and really simplistic lyrics. No marching. No victory. It became K-Luv in church.The defense was “the young people won’t come if we don’t awitch to this” (they still are not coming, in fact they leave the day they move out of their parents home…..probably a good thing).

    Membership dropping. People not coming, in fact leaving…..and the powers that be on the top are not going to be blamed. These two were. They suddenly didn’t see this “love” anymore (if it ever was there) and hence in the end, it probably pushed them away. We hear about these guys cause they’re famous…..and good looking. We don’t hear the run and grind kind of man who left for the same reasons.

    AS for the orthodox tradition. I asked questions about this on Dalrock once after I attended a service, Scott gave me a “rolled eye” respinse and told me to read a webpage. Depends onm *who* is asking. If Dalrock asked or DS asked…..a red carpet would have been rolled out and probably the priest would call them both to “answer any questions they had”

    I also find it strange that people in this tradition bow to painted icons of “saints” but that’s not worship or idoltry.It had better be on the north wall, or your “prayers” won’t be heard either

  51. Novaseeker says:

    AS for the orthodox tradition. I asked questions about this on Dalrock once after I attended a service, Scott gave me a “rolled eye” respinse and told me to read a webpage.

    Don’t know about that — like I didn’t see it. If it happened, that’s unfortunate.

    I also find it strange that people in this tradition bow to painted icons of “saints” but that’s not worship or idoltry.It had better be on the north wall, or your “prayers” won’t be heard either

    We do not bow to saints. We bow before God and those who have become “partakers in the divine nature” per 1 Peter.

    There are no rules I am aware of in terms of placing icons, and I have been Orthodox for 20 years. We do *try* to face our churches in a such a way that the altar is “facing east”, as was the case when Christians first built churches in the early Church era, but if we buy/inherit a church building that is not built that way, it is no big deal.

  52. Novaseeker says:

    As for worship vs veneration, see the entire iconoclasm controversy in the first millenium church. Oh, but I forgot, Jason, you don’t want to learn or lift a finger. If something confronts you as odd, you rail against it and don’t bother to learn. And yes I know you will now attack me for attacking you, but my God, Jason, you have to at least have some ability to learn Christian history don’t you?

  53. Sharkly says:

    @ Novaseeker,
    Christianity, it is not. However, it is an example, one among many, of what happens when you put a man and a bible together and tell him that’s all there is.

    The alternative of signing up with some wind tossed churchians or some earthly tradition laden orthodox big-box institution, putting down your Bible, and following the crowd, is even less likely to find you open to following the leading of God’s holy spirit.

    I think places like this where iron can sharpen iron, all week long, are far superior to attending at some ornate building once or twice a week, with folks who are mostly going through the motions.

    theasdgamer offered you a chance to sharpen him: I’m still early in changing my opinion about this and would love for someone to prove me wrong about premarital sex. Biblical examples are very persuasive to me. Answering with disagreement and saying that he needs your committee curated tradition, isn’t actually that helpful. Why not share some of those good traditional answers if they are sound, and will stand up to scriptural examination. Otherwise just disagreeing, while I understand, and disagree myself, and feel it is worth stating, does little to sharpen all who could benefit from the two millennium of collected wisdom churches like yours claim to have on tap.

  54. Novaseeker says:

    I think places like this where iron can sharpen iron, all week long, are far superior to attending at some ornate building once or twice a week, with folks who are mostly going through the motions.

    You can think what you wish. I know that your heterodox opinions have spawned from this precise thinking, unfortunately for you.

    sharpen all who could benefit from the two millennium of collected wisdom churches like yours claim to have on tap.

    My experience with Protestant Christians is that “discussions” always have to take place on your own battlefield, sola scriptura. That isn’t how the Church has ever rolled, prior to 1517. So discussions are fruitless, other than discussions about authority, because authority is the fundamental disagreement and the only discussion worth having. Any other discussion is subsidiary to that one, and when Catholics/Orthodox engage with you all on that basis we have already conceded too much.

    So, no. Come to the Church, or don’t. But debating about subsidiary issues is pointless and always has been.

  55. Sharkly says:

    lastmod says: …but stay away from church…..these people will try to hurt you.

    I grew up being told the exact opposite by word. But I learned through witnessing the actual deeds of many churches, that yes they do have zero tolerance for those who are struggling in an uncool way.
    When Chad Thundercock admits he struggles and often fails not to bed all the church girls who are throwing themselves at him, somehow that is seen as making him qualified to lead a ministry the moment his dick dries off. But if somebody like Jason struggles to find a date, and is assumed to be involuntarily celibate, then he needs to find a different church, that welcomes creeps like him.(Hint: No churches of this generation do, because they’re all apostate, and full of ungodly partiality)

    I’ll vouch, that while churches are often home to an abundance of social misfits, they aren’t too much more accepting of them than the rest of the world. Churchians try to cast out the outcasts too, instead of casting out the log of partiality from their own eye.

    Now I’m not saying that the social misfits don’t often also contribute to their own poor reception, but, if they are truly loved, they need to be helped privately as much as possible. The public internet isn’t always a good forum to correct those who are so often proverbially spat upon. Sometimes you can’t fix what makes them despised by men and women, but you can still love your brother, and behave yourself as lovingly as you can considering all things.

    A person’s ability to love the “unlovable” is a mark of their genuine Christian virtue. They will know we are Christians(or not) by our love.

    Roman’s 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.

  56. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    A thought. In Christ’s time, kids were betrothed at age twelve. Something like that makes premarital sex next to practically impossible. The present attitude of postponing marriage until age thirty would be considered insane by that time’s standards. Women had a lot of babies then, because infant and childhood mortality was so high. As late as Queen Anne, in the early eighteenth century, she wasn’t able to raise a successor in spite of being pregnant seventeen times.

    Another thought. About the time that Henry VIII was petitioning the Pope for annulment, the Pope was having his own troubles. In 1527, Carlos V, the only Spanish Holy Roman Emperor, was invading the Papal States and taking Rome. Pope Clement VII was not about to entertain assisting Henry VIII in divorcing Catherine of Aragon, sister of Carlos V.

  57. Sharkly says:

    @Novaseeker,
    …sola scriptura. That isn’t how the Church has ever rolled, prior to 1517.

    Acts 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed…

    God’s word was established and sealed before the foundation of the world and is eternally the truth. We have no other better source of truth.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    If you want to add more truth, to God’s truth, it must be examined and entirely consistent with God’s revealed truth. That is how the true church rolls. Otherwise all sorts of false worship can be slipped in, and before you know it you’ll be kissing icons, praying to saints and angels, and washing things in physical “holy water”, that the “church” sells. I’m not certain of what-all heresy has slipped into your particular Orthodox denomination, but even a little, is too much. And yes protestants may miss out on some good things by discounting your traditions, but they will also likely avoid the errors contained therein. And I would rather just be ‘complete’, than have all the questionable extra-credit assignments. I have enough difficulty just following what has been revealed by God.

  58. @ asd

    Sounds like you’re a full-blown gnostic.

    Sounds like you have no argument.

    The flesh is sanctified through God by His ordained institutions. In other words, sex in marriage.

  59. Novaseeker says:

    God’s word was established and sealed before the foundation of the world and is eternally the truth. We have no other better source of truth.

    The Church predates the New Testament. The Church wrote the New Testament. Protestantism is a rebellion — against authority, which comes from God. It is evil, plain and simple. And the evils of the modern world all, one after the other, stem from that same rebellion and heresy.

  60. Derek Ramsey says:

    “Where in Mosaic Law (which was based on case law) were there ever examples of sex between married men and single women being prosecuted under the Law? Make your case.”

    WHAT? Read the Bible, man!

    If a man had sex with a virgin, his punishment was to pay her father a dowry fee. He would also be required to marry her on the spot if the father demanded it. Imagine if you had to pay thousands of dollars to take a girl’s virginity and then you’d have to marry her, whether you wanted to or not. Oh, and you wouldn’t be allowed to divorce her for any reason, but she could divorce you. Can’t pay the dowry because you are a young idiot? Welcome to indentured servitude (slavery). I think that you’d think twice about having premarital sex.

    But, you say, what if she never told her father? Hiding the act wasn’t possible. Eventually her father would marry her off and her new husband would find out that she was deflowered. If her cucked husband was feeling generous, she’d get an immediate divorce. Or she would be executed. Additionally, there was no contraception, so premarital sex would lead to bastard children. Even if there were no other punishments, that was punishment enough. No, she couldn’t hide.

    If she had premarital sex while betrothed to another, the punishment was death.

    So, you say, what about non-virgin premarital sex? Well, the only non-virgins were either married (the punishment for adultery was death) or widows. There would not be many widows, as most women died in childbirth, but having sex with a widow was as good as a marriage proposal. They didn’t even have to have sex. Even propositioning a man for sex was was as good as a marriage proposal (e.g. Ruth and Boaz).

    It’s beyond question that premarital sex is illicit. There are plenty of other arguments that can be made (e.g. the Hebrew word for whoring being used for premarital sex; the Genesis account of sex and marriage; NT references), but really it shouldn’t be necessary.

  61. lastmod says:

    a list of the female saints in orthodoxy……..there is another list of about 75 that are recognized during certain times of the year, and another group with the likes of Mary and even Pontus Pilates wife is recognized as a saint. But you pray to God and it’s a faith that rewards “masculinity”

    Nova, I’ll buy that “faith” in a higher power can offer comfort in uneasy world, and as a former addict I can see the calming effect of “acknowledging” a higher power to the unknow as a helps to overcoming that, putting their own destructive and bad choices into some sort of clarity. In my early years of getting cleaned up, this helped. Not a church. Not praying to jesus……everyday people in AA / NA helped me.

    In order to be a christian, christ never demanded people to “study” history. Most of the early church met in homes, and in small groups. Where did vestments come in? Where did painting pictures on wood and looking at them while praying and reading a “liturgical” text in a chant to that saint for help or veneration become practice, and why?

    If you think for a moment I am going to give protestantism a pass, you are incorrect. I was told and taught that it was “simple” and “its so clear in the bible”

    After you then get saved so to speak, out comes the hairsplitting, the never ending debates of what words meant in what context and by who or whom. It makes bill clintons testimony when he debated what the word “is” means to that congressional hearing look logical.

    enjoy the list….

    January 2 St. Juliana of Lazarevo
    January 3 St. Emilia, Mother of Ss. Basil and Gregory
    January 3 St. Genevieve of Paris
    January 4 St. Apphia, and her husband, St. Philemon, of the Seventy
    January 5 St. Apollinaria of Egypt
    January 5 St. Syncletica of Alexandria
    January 6 St. Lydia Alexandrova, along with her husband, mother and three daughters
    January 7 St. Kentigerna, Hermitess of Loch Lomond
    January 8 St. Domnica of Constantinople
    January 10 St. Theosebia, Sister of St. Basil and St. Gregory
    January 11 Icon of the Mother of God of Elets
    January 12 St. Tatiana of Rome, and Those Who Suffered With Her
    January 12 Icon of the Mother of God of the Akathist
    January 12 Icon of the Mother of God the “Milkgiver”
    January 12 Icon of the Mother of God the “Priestly”
    January 12 St. Eupraxia the Elder
    January 14 St. Nino, Equal of the Apostles and Enlightener of Georgia
    January 15 St. Ita, the Hermitess of Killeady
    January 15 St. Salome and St. Perozhavra of Ojarma
    January 16 St. Leonilla and St. Jonilla at Cappadocia
    January 17 St. Mildgyth of Minster
    January 18 St. Prisca of Rome
    January 18 St. Maria, Schema Nun and Mother of St. Sergius of Radonezh
    January 19 St. Euphrasia of Nicomedia
    January 21 Icon of the Mother of God “Comfort” or “Consolation”
    January 21 Icon of the Mother of God “Stabbed”
    January 21 Icon of the Mother of God “Xenophon Hodigitria”
    January 21 St. Agnes of Rome
    January 22 St. Wendreda, Hermitess of March, Cambridgeshire, England
    January 23 St. Emerentiana of Rome
    January 24 St. Xenia of Rome
    January 24 St. Xenia of St. Petersburg
    January 25 St. Felicitas of Rome and her Seven Sons
    January 25 Icon of the Mother of God “Assuage My Sorrows” Translation to Moscow
    January 26 St. Paula of Rome
    January 26 St. Maria of Constantinople, along with her husband and sons
    January 26 St. Maria of Gatchina, Matushka and New Martyr
    January 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Sumorin Totma
    January 29 St. Bebaia of Edessa with her brother
    January 30 Icon of the Mother of God “Tinos”
    January 30 St. Chryse of Rome and others
    January 30 St. Bathildis, Nun of Chelles and Queen of France
    January 31 St. Athanasia and her daughters
    January 31 St. Theodota in Egypt
    January 31 St. Tryphaina at Cyzicus
    February 1 Icon of the Mother of God “Sokolsky”
    February 1 St. Brigid of Ireland
    February 1 St. Perpetua, St. Felicitas, and those with them, at Carthage
    February 2 The Meeting of Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ in the Temple
    February 3 Afterfeast of the Meeting of Our Lord in the Temple
    February 3 Holy Righteous Anna, the Prophetess
    February 3 St. Ia, Virgin of St. Ives
    February 3 St. Werburga, Abbess of Canterbury
    February 5 Icon of the Mother of God Divnogorsk-Sicilian
    February 5 Icon of the Mother of God “Elets-Chernigov”
    February 5 Icon of the Mother of God “Seeker of the Lost”
    February 5 St. Agatha of Belo-Russia
    February 5 St. Agatha of Palermo
    February 5 St. Theodula of Anazarbus in Cilicia
    February 6 St. Dorothy in Caesarea
    February 6 St. Fausta at Cyzicus, along with Sts. Evilasius and Maximus
    February 6 St. Martha and St. Mary, in Egypt
    February 7 1,003 Martyrs at Nicomedia
    February 8 St. Elfleda, Abbess of Whitby
    February 8 St. Kew, Virgin of Cornwall
    February 9 Leavetaking of the Meeting of the Lord in the Temple
    February 9 St. Apollonia of Alexandria
    February 10 Icon of the Mother of God “Areovindus”
    February 10 St. Anna of Novgorod
    February 10 St. Merwinna, Abbess of Romsey, Hampshire, England
    February 10 St. Scholastica, Sister of St. Benedict of Nursia
    February 10 St. Ennatha, St. Valentina and St. Paula, Virgins and Martyrs
    February 10 Three Women Martyrs with St. Charalmpus in Thessaly
    February 11 St. Gertrude, Abbess of Nijvel Monastery
    February 11 St. Gobnata at Ballyvourney
    February 11 St. Theodora, Wife of Emperor Theophilus the Iconoclast
    February 11 Women Martyrs with St. Blaise, Bishop of Sebaste
    February 12 Icon of the Mother of God “Iveron”
    February 12 St. Maria of Alexandria
    February 13 St. Ermenhilda, Abbess of Ely Monastery, England
    February 13 St. Priscilla, with her husband, Aquila, at Ephesus
    February 13 St. Zoe
    February 14 Icon of the Mother of God “Vilno”
    February 15 Icon of the Mother of God of Dormition-Dalmatov
    February 15 Icon of the Mother of God of Vilnius
    February 15 Mother Kypriane, Abbess of Holy Angels Convent
    February 17 Icon of the Mother of God Weeping “Tikhvin” at Mt. Athos
    February 17 St. Mariamne, Sister of Apostle Philip
    February 19 Icon of the Mother of God of Cyprus
    February 19 St. Apphia, the Martyr of the Seventy
    February 19 St. Philothea the Monastic
    February 21 Icon of the Mother of God of Kozelshchansk
    February 21 St. Erkengota, Virgin of Faremoutier-en-Brie
    February 23 St. Gorgonia, sister of St. Gregory the Theologian
    February 26 St. Photini (the Samaritan Woman)
    February 27 St. Marana of Syria
    February 28 St. Kyra of Syria
    February 28 St. Domnica of Syria
    March 1 St. Antonina of Nicea
    March 1 St. Domnica of Syria
    March 1 St. Eudokia of Heliopolis
    March 2 Icon of the Mother of God “Enthroned”
    March 2 St. Euthalia of Syria
    March 3 Icon of the Mother of God of Volokolamsk
    March 3 St. Piama of Egypt
    March 3 An Unknown Girl in Alexandria
    March 4 St. Juliana and her brother, Paul
    March 5 St. Irais (Rhais) of Antinoe in Egypt
    March 6 Icon of the Mother of God “Czestochowa”
    March 6 Icon of the Mother of God “the Blessed Heaven”
    March 6 St. Helen’s Uncovering of the Precious Cross and Precious Nails in Jerusalem
    March 7 Icon of the Mother of God “Surety of Sinners” at Robensk
    March 7 Icon of the Mother of God “the Surety of Sinners”
    March 8 Commemoration of our God-bearing Fathers and Mothers Who Shone Forth in Asceticism
    March 8 Icon of the Mother of God Kursk Root “Of the Sign”
    March 9 Expulsion of Adam and Eve from Paradise
    March 9 Icon of the Mother of God “The Word Made Flesh”
    March 10 St. Anastasia the Patrician of Alexandria
    March 10 St. Galina and those with her at Corinth
    March 10 St. Chariessa, Nunechia, Basilissa and those martyred with them at Corinth
    March 11 St. Sabina of Smyrna, along with Sts. Pionius and Limnus
    March 13 St. Christina in Persia
    March 14 Icon of the Mother of God of St. Theodore
    March 19 Icon of the Mother of God of Lubyatov
    March 19 Icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk “the Sweet-Kissing”
    March 19 St. Daria and those with her at Rome
    March 19 St. Hilaria and those with her at Rome
    March 20 St. Claudia, along with Sts. Alexandra, Euphrasia, Matrona, Juliania, Euphmia and Theodosia
    March 20 St. Kyriake of Rome
    March 20 St. Photini, the Samaritan Woman
    March 22 Sts. Callinica and Basilissa of Rome
    March 22 St. Drosis, the Daughter of Emperor Trajan
    March 23 St. Lydia in Illyria
    March 24 Forefeast of the Annunciation
    March 24 Icon of the Mother of God of the “Uncut Mount” or “The Clouded Mountain”
    March 25 The Feast of the Annunciation of Our Most Holy Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
    March 26 Leavetaking of the Annunciation
    March 26 St. Agnes, along with others, in the Crimea
    March 26 St. Gaatha, the Queen, along with others, in the Crimea
    March 26 St. Larissa, the laywoman, along with others, in the Crimea
    March 26 St. Maxima of Singidunum, and her priest-husband, St. Montanus
    March 27 St. Matrona of Thessalonica
    March 27 Icon of the Mother of God of the Akathist
    March 28 Icon of the Mother of God “Of the Sign”
    March 28 Repose of Blessed Mother Gavrilia
    March 30 Meeting of the Holy Mother of God and St. Elizabeth
    March 30 St. Euboula, the Mother of St. Panteleimon
    March 31 Icon of the Mother of God “the Iveron Appearance”
    April 1 St. Mary of Egypt
    April 2 St. Theodora of Palestine
    April 3 Icon of the Mother of God the “Unfading Bloom”
    April 3 St. Burgundofara of France
    April 3 St. Irene, Martyr
    April 3 St. Theodosia of Tyre
    April 4 Icon of the Mother of God “Life-Giving Spring”
    April 4 St. Perthuba & her Sister
    April 5 Icon of the Mother of God of Kasperov
    April 5 St. Theodora of Thessalonica
    April 6 120 Martyrs in Persia
    April 6 St. Platonida of Syria
    April 7 St. Aquilina
    April 7 St. Theoclea & her son, Calliopius
    April 9 St. Waldetrudis of Belgium
    April 9 St. Mary of Cleophas
    April 9 St. Irene, New Martyr of Lesbos
    April 9 St. Eleni, New Martyr of Lesbos
    April 9 St. Casilda of Toledo, Spain
    April 10 Mothers of Kvabtakhevi Monastery in Georgia
    April 11 St. Godebertha of France
    April 11 Icon of the Mother of God “the Footprint” at Pochaev
    April 12 St. Anthusa of Constantinople
    April 12 Akathist to the Theotokos
    April 12 Deposition of the Belt of Our Most Holy Theotokos
    April 13 Icon of the Tikhvin Mother of God, Appearance of
    April 14 Icon of the Mother of God of Vilnius
    April 15 Ss. Basilissa and Anastasia of Rome
    April 16 Icon of the Mother of God “Ilyin-Chernigov”
    April 16 Icon of the Mother of God of Tambov
    April 16 Ss. Charissa, Nike, Galina, Kallista, Nunechia, Basilissa & Theodora
    April 16 St. Engratia of Spain
    April 16 Ss. Agape, Irene & Chione
    April 17 St. Askitrea, Persian Martyr
    April 18 Icon of the Mother of God of Maximov
    April 18 St. Athanasia the Wonderworker
    April 19 St. Matrona of Moscow
    April 21 St. Philippa, Martyr
    April 22 St. Tamara, Queen of Georgia
    April 23 St. Alexandra, Empress & Martyr, Wife of Diocletian
    April 24 Icon of the Mother of God of Molcha
    April 24 St. Elizabeth, the Wonderworker of Constantinople
    April 24 Ss. Bova and Doda, of France
    April 25 Icon of the Mother of God of Constantinople
    April 26 St. Glaphyra, Virginmartyr
    April 28 St. Cercyra, along with Seven Others, at Corfu
    April 29 Martyrs of Lazeti
    April 29 St. Endellion, Recluse of Cornwall
    April 29 Ss. Tertulla and Antonia, Virgins, Martyred in Africa
    April 30 Icon of the Mother of God “Of the Passion”
    April 30 St. Argyre the Neomartyr
    May 1 Icon of the Mother of God “Myrrh-Bearing”
    May 1 Icon of the Mother of God of “the Unexpected Joy” from Andronikov
    May 1 St. Bertha of Val d’or, near Avenay, Reims, France
    May 1 St. Tamara, Queen of Georgia
    May 1 St. Isidora the Fool of Tabenna Monastery
    May 2 Icon of the Mother of God of Putivil
    May 2 St. Zoe with her husband and sons
    May 3 Icon of the Mother of God of Sven
    May 3 St. Adalsindis of France
    May 3 St. Maura of Antinoe in Egypt
    May 3 Translation of the Dormition Icon of the Mother of God from Constantinople to the Kiev Caves
    May 4 Icon of the Mother of God “Staro Rus” (Old Russian)
    May 4 St. Monica, Mother of Augustine of Hippo
    May 4 St. Pelagia of Tarsus
    May 5 Icon of the Mother of God “the Inexhaustible Chalice”
    May 5 St. Waldrada of France
    May 5 St. Irene, Greatmartyr, of Thessalonica
    May 7 Icon of the Mother of God of Liubech
    May 7 Icon of the Mother of God of Zhirovits
    May 8 St. Ida of Belgium
    May 9 Ss. Aquilina and Callinike, Martyrs of Lycia
    May 10 Icon of the Mother of God Kiev-Bratsk
    May 10 St. Solangia, Martyr, of France
    May 10 St. Thais of Egypt
    May 11 Sunday of the Holy Myrrhbearing Women
    May 12 St. Rictrudis of France
    May 13 St. Glyceria, Virgin Martyr, at Heraclea
    May 13 St. Glyceria, Virgin Martyr, of Novgorod
    May 14 Icon of the Mother of God of Chelnsk and Pskov Caves
    May 14 Icon of the Mother of God “Sweet-Kissing”
    May 15 St. Dymphna, Martyr, in Belgium
    May 16 St. Crescentia at Lucania
    May 16 St. Musa of Rome
    May 17 St. Euphrosyne, Princess of Moscow
    May 17 St. Junia, martyred along with the Seventy
    May 18 St. Christina of Ancyra, Virginmartyr
    May 18 St. Tagine of Georgia
    May 18 St. Tecusa, Virginmartyr, along with Sts. Alexandra, Tecusa, Claudia, Phaine, Euphrasia, Matrona, and Julia
    May 19 Entrance of St. Nino the Enlightener into Georgia
    May 19 St. Theotima, Martyr, of Nicomedia
    May 20 Glorification of Ss. Sosana and Zabulon, Parents of St. Nino
    May 20 St. Lydia of Philippisia
    May 21 Icon of the Mother of God “Tenderness”
    May 21 Icon of the Vladimir Mother of God
    May 21 St. Helen, Mother of Emperor Constantine
    May 22 Icon of the Mother of God of Cyprus
    May 22 St. Quiteria, Virgin & Martyr
    May 23 St. Mary the Myrrhbearer and Wife of Cleophas
    May 24 1,218 Martyred Soldiers with women and children who suffered in Galatia
    May 24 St. Euphrosyne, Abbess of Polotsk
    May 25 Icon of the Mother of God “the Helper of Sinners”
    May 25 Sunday of the Samaritan Woman (St. Photini)
    May 26 St. Helen, Daughter of the Apostle Abercius
    May 27 St. Restituta of Sora
    May 27 St. Theodora, Virginmartyr, of Alexandria
    May 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Nicea
    May 28 Icon of the Mother of God “Softener of Evil Hearts”
    May 28 Icon of the Mother of God “The Unbreakable Wall”
    May 28 St. Heliconis, Martyr, of Thessalonica
    May 29 Icon of the Mother of God “Surety of Sinners”
    May 29 St. Theodosia, Virginmartyr, of Constantinople
    May 29 St. Theodosia, Virginmartyr, of Tyre
    May 30 St. Emilia, Mother of Ss. Macrina, Basil the Great & Gregory of Nyssa
    May 30 St. Macrina the Elder
    June 1 St. Charito with her husband, and those with her at Rome
    June 1 St. Gwen of Brittany
    June 2 Glorification of Sts. Zabulon & Sosanna, Parents of St. Nino
    June 2 Icon of the Mother of God of Kiev-Bratsk
    June 2 Uncovering of the Relics of St. Juliana, Princess of Vyazma
    June 2 St. Sofia the Mother of Orphans
    June 3 St. Clotilda, Queen of the Franks
    June 3 St. Paula, Martyr, and Those Who Suffered With Her, at Byzantium
    June 4 Ss. Martha & Mary, Sisters of Lazarus
    June 4 St. Sophia of Thrace
    June 4 Ss. Julia, Ninita & Fortunio, along with 25 others
    June 5 Icon of the Mother of God of Igor
    June 5 Ss. Selenia & Irene, Martyrs, in Egypt
    June 6 Icon of the Mother of God of Pimen
    June 6 Ss. Susanna, Archelais, and Thekla, Martyrs
    June 7 St. Kaleria of Caesarea
    June 7 St. Kyriake of Caesarea
    June 7 St. Mary of Caesarea
    June 7 St. Priscilla, Martyr, of Rome
    June 7 Ss. Lucina (Lucy) and Artemia, Martyrs, of Rome
    June 8 Icon of the Mother of God of White Lake
    June 8 Icon of the Mother of God of Yaroslavl
    June 8 St. Eustadiola of France
    June 8 St. Melania the Elder
    June 8 St. Syra (Syria) of Ireland
    June 9 St. Pelagia of Antioch, Virgin & Martyr
    June 9 Ss. Thekla, Martha and Mary, Martyrs
    June 10 St. Antonina, Martyr at Constantinople
    June 10 St. Olive of Palermo, Virgin and Martyr
    June 11 The Revelation of the Hymn, “It Is Truly Meet…”
    June 12 Transfer of the Relics of St. Anna of Kashin
    June 13 St. Anna and Her Son, St. John
    June 13 St. Antonina of Nicea, Martyr
    June 13 St. Aquilina of Byblos
    June 13 St. Felicula, Martyr, at Rome
    June 14 St. Digna, Martyr, at Cordoba
    June 15 St. Crescentia, Martyr, at Lucanium
    June 15 St. Edburga of Winchester
    June 16 St. Julitta, along with her son, St. Kerykos
    June 17 Martyred Mothers & Fathers at Atchara, Georgia
    June 18 Icon of the Mother of God “The God Loving”
    June 18 St. Alena, Martyr, of Belgium
    June 18 St. Osanna of Jouarre
    June 19 Mary, the Holy Myrrh-Bearer and Mother of the Apostle James
    June 20 Icon of the Mother of God “The Directress”
    June 20 St. Inna, St. Pinna and St. Rimma, Martyrs and Apostles of St. Andrew
    June 20 St. Florentina of Spain
    June 21 St. Anastasia of Serbia
    June 21 Synaxis of the Saints of North America
    June 22 St. Ebba the Younger, Martyr, of Coldhingham, Northumbria
    June 22 St. Gwen of Talgarth, Wales, Virgin-Martyr
    June 22 St. Juliana, Martyr, along with Ss. Galacteon and Saturninus
    June 23 Icon of the Mother of God “Tenderness” of the Pskov Caves
    June 23 Meeting of the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God
    June 23 St. Agrippina, Martyr, of Rome
    June 23 St. Audrey of Ely, England
    June 23 St. Lollia, Martyr, along with Ss. Gaius, Eustochius, Probius & Urban
    June 24 Birth of Holy Prophet and Forerunner John the Baptist, by St. Elizabeth
    June 25 St. Febronia, Tonsured Euphrosyne, the Wonderworker of Murom
    June 25 St. Febronia, Virgin Martyr
    June 25 St. Eurosia (or Orosia) of Spain
    June 26 Icon of the Mother of God “Neamts”
    June 26 Icon of the Mother of God of Lydda or “the Roman”
    June 26 Icon of the Mother of God of Seven Lakes
    June 26 Icon of the Tikhvin Mother of God, Appearance of
    June 26 St. Perseveranda, Virgin-Martyr, of Spain
    June 27 St. Joanna, the Myrrh-Bearer
    June 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Three Hands
    June 28 St. Theodichildis of France
    June 29 Feast of All Saints of Georgia
    June 29 Icon of the Mother of God “the Kasperov”
    June 30 Icon of the Mother of God of Balikin
    June 30 St. Dinar, Queen of Hereti
    June 30 St. Erentrude, Virgin, of Austria
    July 1 St. Angelina of Serbia
    July 1 St. Juthwara of England
    July 2 Icon of the Mother of God of Akhtyr
    July 2 The Placing of the Honorable Robe of the Most Holy Mother of God at Blachernae
    July 2 St. Monegundis of France
    July 3 Icon of the Mother of God “the Milk-Giver”
    July 3 St. Nectaria, Schema-Nun, of Russia
    July 4 Icon of the Mother of God of Galatea
    July 4 St. Alexandra, Passion-Bearer
    July 4 St. Bertha of France
    July 4 St. Martha, Mother of St. Simeon of the Wonderful Mountain
    July 4 St. Martha the Mother of St. Simeon Stylite the Younger
    July 4 Ss. Cyprilla, Lucia & Aroa, along with St. Theodore of Cyrene
    July 5 Icon of the Mother of God “Economissa” (or Stewardess)
    July 5 St. Barbara, Nun-Martyr, of Russia
    July 5 St. Edana of Ireland
    July 5 St. Elizabeth the New Martyr of Russia
    July 5 St. Erfyl of Wales
    July 5 St. Gwen, along with her husband, St. Fragan, of Britain
    July 5 St. Triphina of Brittany
    July 6 St. Lucy at Rome
    July 6 St. Martha with her husband, St. Marinus, and Children at Rome
    July 6 St. Monenna of Ireland
    July 6 St. Noyala, Virgin Martyr, at Brittany
    July 6 St. Sexburga of Kent
    July 6 Uncovering of the Relics of St. Juliana
    July 7 St. Euphrosyne, in the world Eudokia, Grand Duchess of Moscow
    July 7 St. Kyriake of Nicomedia
    July 7 Translation of the “Blachernae” Icon of the Mother of God to Russia
    July 8 Icon of the Kazan Mother of God, Appearance of
    July 8 Icon of the Mother of God “Our Lady of Sitka”
    July 8 Icon of the Mother of God “Tenderness” in Novgorod
    July 8 Icon of the Mother of God – the “Ustiug” Annunciation, Miracle of
    July 8 St. Landrada of Belgium
    July 8 St. Morwenna of Morwenstow, Cornwall
    July 8 St. Sunniva of Norway
    July 9 Icon of the Mother of God of Cyprus
    July 9 Icon of the Mother of God of Koloch
    July 9 St. Everilda of Everingham
    July 10 Icon of the Mother of God of Konevits
    July 10 Ss. Rufina & Secunda, Virgin Martyrs, at Rome
    July 11 Icon of the Mother of God of Rzhevsk
    July 11 St. Amabilis of France
    July 11 St. Olga, Princess of Russia
    July 11 Translation of the Relics of St. Barbara, Great-Martyr
    July 12 St. Golinduc, Martyr, of Persia
    July 12 St. Marciana of Spain
    July 12 St. Veronica, a Woman Healed by Christ
    July 13 Icon of the Mother of God “It Is Truly Meet”
    July 13 St. Mildred of Thanet
    July 13 Ss. Maura & Brigid of Northumbria
    July 13 Synaxis of the Archangel Gabriel
    July 14 St. Eulita, along with her son, Kyriacos
    July 15 St. Apronia (Evronie) of Germany
    July 16 Icon of the Mother of God of Chirsk-Pskov
    July 16 St. Irmengard of Germany
    July 16 St. Reineldis, Virgin Martyr, With Her Companions
    July 16 Ss. Alevtina & Chione, Martyrs, at Caesarea, in Palestine
    July 16 St. Julia, Virgin-Martyr, at Carthage
    July 17 Icon of the Mother of God of Sviatogorsk
    July 17 Scillitan Martyrs, in North Africa
    July 17 St. Marina (Margaret), Great Martyr, of Antioch in Pisidia
    July 17 St. Marcellina, Sister of St. Ambrose
    July 18 Icon of the Mother of God of Tolga
    July 18 St. Gundenis, at Carthage
    July 18 St. Symphorosa, Martyr, at Tivoli, along with Her Sons
    July 18 St. Theneva of Scotland
    July 19 St. Macrina, the Sister of Ss. Basil the Great & Gregory of Nyssa
    July 19 St. Aurea, Martyr, of Cordova
    July 19 Ss. Justa & Rufina, Virgin-Martyrs, at Seville, Spain
    July 19 St. Melitsa of Serbia
    July 20 Icon of the Mother of God “Chukhloma”
    July 20 St. Elswith of Winchester
    July 20 St. Maria (Skobtsova), Martyr, and Those With Her
    July 20 St. Severa of Villeneuve, France
    July 21 Icon of the Mother of God “Armatia”
    July 21 St. Salome the Georgian
    July 21 St. Julia of Troyes, Martyr, along with Claudius
    July 21 St. Praxedes at Rome
    July 21 St. Wastrada of Susteren
    July 22 St. Markella of Chios
    July 22 St. Mary Magdalene, Myrrh-Bearer and Equal of the Apostles
    July 23 Icon of the Mother of God “Joy of All Who Sorrow” (with coins)
    July 23 Icon of the Mother of God of Pochaev
    July 23 The Miraculous Appearance of the Mother of God at Pochaev
    July 23 Ss. Romula, Redempta & Herundo
    July 24 St. Christina of Tyre, Martyr
    July 24 St. Christiana of Flanders
    July 24 St. Lewina, Virgin-Martyr, of England
    July 24 St. Sigolena of France
    July 25 Dormition of the Righteous Anna
    July 25 St. Glodesind of France
    July 25 St. Eupraxia, Virgin, of Tabenna
    July 25 St. Olympias the Deaconess
    July 26 St. Paraskeva, Virgin Martyr, of Rome
    July 27 90 Venerable Sisters of Mantinea in Asia Minor
    July 27 St. Anthusa the Abbess of Mantinea in Asia Minor
    July 27 Ss. Natalia and Liliosa, along with their husbands, in Cordoba, Spain
    July 28 Appearance of the Icon of the Mother of God “the Smolensk Directress”
    July 28 The Icon of the Mother of God of “Greben”
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Igritsa
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Kostroma
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Shui
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of “St. Christopher”
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Suprasl
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God “of Tenderness” from Seraphim-Diveyevo
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Seven Lakes
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Ustiushna
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Voroninsk
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Vydropussk
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of White Lake
    July 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Yuga
    July 28 St. Irene Chrysovalantou
    July 29 St. Beatrix, along with her brothers, Ss. Simplicius & Faustinus
    July 29 St. Seraphima, Virgin Martyr, of Antioch
    July 29 St. Theodota, along with her three sons, at Bithynia
    July 30 Icon of the Mother of God of Okonsk
    July 30 St. Angelina of Serbia
    July 30 Ss. Maxima, Donatilla & Secunda, Virgin Martyrs, in North Africa
    July 31 St. Julitta, Martyr, at Caesarea
    August 1 Seven Holy Maccabee Martyrs
    August 1 St. Almedha, Martyr, of Wales
    August 2 St. Etheldritha (Alfreda) of England
    August 3 St. Trea of Ireland
    August 3 Nine Kherkheulidze Brothers with their Mother and Sister and Nine Thousand Martyrs of Marabda
    August 4 St. Eudokia of Persia
    August 5 St. Nonna, Mother of St. Gregory the Theologian
    August 5 St. Afra, Martyr, of Augsburg, Germany
    August 7 Icon of the Mother of God of Valaam
    August 7
    St. Potamia the Wonderworker, Virgin Martyr

    August 7 St. Theodora of Romania
    August 8 Icon of the Mother of God of Tolga
    August 8 St. Sigrada of France
    August 9 St. Mary, Martyr, of Constantinople
    August 10
    St. Agilberta of Jouarre, France

    August 10 St. Asteria (or Hesteria) and St. Grata, Virgin Martyrs, of Bergamo, Italy
    August 11 St. Digna of Italy
    August 11 St. Mary Syncletica
    August 11 St. Praepedigna, Martyr, along her husband and children at Rome
    August 11 St. Susanna, Virginmartyr
    August 12 St. Felicissima, Virgin Martyr, along with St. Gracilian
    August 12 St. Hilaria, Martyr, along with her twenty-five companions, at Rome
    August 13 Icon of the Mother of God of Minsk
    August 13 Icon of the Mother of God “Of the Passion”
    August 13 Icon of the Mother of God of the “Seven Arrows”
    August 13 Sts. Centrolla and Helen, Virgin Martyrs, in Spain
    August 13 St. Concordia, Martyr, and Foster Mother of St. Hippolytus, of Rome
    August 13 St. Radegund of France
    August 14 The Dormition of the Mother of God, Forefeast of
    August 14 Icon of the Mother of God of Narva
    August 14 Icon of the Mother of God “the Converser”
    August 15 Dormition of our Most Holy Lady the Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary
    August 16 Dormition of the Mother of God, Afterfeast of
    August 16 Icon of the Mother of God of St. Theodore
    August 17 Dormition of the Mother of God, Afterfeast
    August 17 Icon of the Mother of God of Armatia
    August 17 Icon of the Mother of God of Sven
    August 17 Icon of the Mother of God of the Kiev Caves
    August 17 St. Juliana, Martyr, of Syria, along with her brother, Paul
    August 18 Dormition of the Mother of God, Afterfeast
    August 19 Dormition of the Mother of God, Afterfeast
    August 19 Icon of the Mother of God of the Don
    August 19 St. Namadia of France
    August 19 St. Thekla, Martyr, of Palestine, along with Ss. Agapius and Timothy
    August 21 St. Cyriarca (Dominica), Martyr, in Rome
    August 21 St. Vassa and her children
    August 21 St. Bassa, Martyr, And Her Sons
    August 22 Icon of the Mother of God of Georgia
    August 22 St. Anthusa of Syria
    August 22 St. Ethelgitha of Northumbria
    August 22 St. Eulalia, Martyr, of Spain
    August 23 Dormition of the Theotokos, Leavetaking
    August 23 St. Ebba the Younger, Martyr, Along with Her Companions
    August 23 St. Tydfil, Martyr, of Wales
    August 24 Icon of the Mother of God of St. Peter
    August 24 Appearance of the Most Holy Theotokos to St. Sergius of Radonezh
    August 24 St. Syra, Martyr, of Persia
    August 25 St. Ebba the Elder
    August 25 St. Hunegund of France
    August 25 St. Lucilla, along with St. Nemesius, at Rome
    August 25 St. Patricia of Naples
    August 26 Icon of the Mother of God of the Pskov Caves
    August 26 Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God and the Deliverance of Moscow from the Invasion of Tamerlane
    August 26 St. Natalia, Martyr, of Nicomedia
    August 26 St. Pandwyna of Eltisley, Cambridgeshire
    August 27 St. Anthusa the Confessor
    August 28 St. Irene Chrysovolantou
    August 29 St. Sabina, Martyr, at Rome
    August 30 Placing of the Venerable Belt of the Most Holy Theotokos
    August 30 St. Gaudentia, Virgin Martyr, along with her companions, at Rome
    August 31 St. Eanswythe of Kent
    September 1 40 Women Martyrs at Heraclea, in Thrace
    September 2 St. Rufina of Caesarea
    September 3 St. Basilissa of Nicomedia
    September 3 St. Phoebe the Deaconess at Cenchreae near Corinth
    September 3 St. Domna of Nicomedia
    September 4 St. Hermione the Daughter of St. Philip the Deacon
    September 4 St. Mianus (Ammianus) of Nicomedia
    September 4 St. Christodoula The Mother Of Urban, Prilidian, Epolonius
    September 5 St. Bebaia
    September 5 St. Elizabeth, Mother of St. John the Baptist
    September 6 Icon of the Mother of God of Kiev-Bratsk
    September 7 St. Kassiane
    September 8 Icon of Sophia, the Wisdom of God
    September 8 Nativity of Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary
    September 9 St. Anna, Holy Righteous Ancestor of God
    September 10 St. Menodora, St. Nymphodora, and St. Metrodora
    September 11 St. Euanthia with Her Husband and Son, at Skepsis
    September 11 St. Theodora of Alexandria
    September 13 St. Ketevan, Queen of Kakheti
    September 14 Icon of the Mother of God of Lesna
    September 15 St. Asklepiodote of Adrianopolis
    September 16 St. Euphemia the All-Praised
    September 16 St. Ludmilla, the Grandmother of St. Wenceslaus
    September 16 St. Melitina of Marcianopolis
    September 16 St. Sebastiana the Martyr and Disciple of St. Paul the Apostle at Heraclea
    September 17 St. Agathocleia
    September 17 St. Theodota at Nicea
    September 17 St. Sophia and Her Three Daughters
    September 18 St. Ariadne of Phrygia
    September 20 St. Theopiste with Her Husband and Children
    September 23 St. Xanthippe and St. Polyxene, Disciples of the Apostles
    September 23 St. Irais (Rhais) of Alexandria the Apostle at Heraclea
    September 24 St. Dorothy of Kashin
    September 24 St. Thekla, Protomartyr and Equal to the Apostles
    September 25 St. Euphrosyne of Alexandria
    September 25 St. Euphrosyne of Suzdal
    September 27 St. Aquilina
    September 27 St. Epicharis of Rome
    September 28 St. Maria, the Mother of the Venerable Sergius of Radonezh
    September 29 St. Juliana, Blessed Virgin Princess of Olshansk
    September 30 St. Gaiana of Armenia
    September 30 St. Rhipsime of Armenia
    October 1 St. Nana, Empress of Georgia, and Equal of the Apostles
    October 1 St. Sidonia Of Georgia
    October 1 The Protection of Our Most Holy Lady, the Mother of God
    October 2 St. Anna, Princess of Kashin
    October 2 St. Justina of Nicomedia
    October 4 St. Domnina with her daughters
    October 4 St. Callisthene and her father, Audactus of Ephesus
    October 5 St. Charitina of Amisus
    October 5 St. Memelchtha of Persia
    October 7 St. Pelagia of Tarsus
    October 8 St. Pelagia the Penitent
    October 8 St. Thais of Egypt
    October 9 St. Publia the Confessor and Deaconess of Antioch
    October 10 St. Eulampia and her brother, Eulampius
    October 11 St. Ethelburga
    October 11 St. Zenaida of Tarsus
    October 12 St. Domnina of Anazarbus
    October 13 St. Chryse (Zlata) of Bulgaria
    October 14 St. Paraskeva (Petka) of Serbia
    October 15 St. Sarbelus of Edessa
    October 16 St. Eupraxia, Princess of Pskov
    October 19 St. Cleopatra with her son, John
    October 20 St. Matrona of Chios
    October 22 St. Anna at Adrianopolis
    October 24 Icon of the Mother of God “The Joy of All Who Sorrow”
    October 24 St. Syncletica with her two daughters
    October 25 St. Tabitha the Widow, Raised from the Dead by the Apostle Peter
    October 28 St. Neonilla with her husband and children
    October 29 St. Anastasia the Roman
    October 29 St. Anna of Constantinople
    October 29 St. Maria, the Niece of Abramius, the Recluse of Mesopotamia
    October 30 St. Anastasia of Tessalonica
    October 30 St. Eutropia of Alexandria
    October 30 St. Helen of Serbia
    October 30 St. Zenobia of Aegae, and her brother Heiromartyr Zenobius
    October 31 St. Maura of Constantinople
    November 1 St. Cyrenia in Cilicia
    November 1 St. Helen at Sinope
    November 1 St. Theodota the Mother of the Unmercenaries Cosmas and Damian
    November 2 Ozerianka Icon of God of Shuiu-Smolensk
    November 3 St. Anna Vesvolodna
    November 3 St. Winefride
    November 5 St. Epistime with her husband, Galacteon, at Emesa
    November 7 Icon of the Mother of God “the Joyful”
    November 7 St. Karina with her husband and son
    November 9 Icon of the Mother of God “Quick to Hear”
    November 9 St. Eustolia of Constantinople
    November 9 St. Matrona, Abbess of Constantinople
    November 9 St. Sopatra of Constantinople
    November 9 St. Theoctiste of the Isle of Lesbos
    November 11 St. Melitsa of Serbia
    November 12 Icon of the Mother of God “the Merciful”
    November 13 St. Irene Myrtidiotissa
    November 14 St. Theodora
    November 15 Icon of the Mother of God of Kupyatitch
    November 16 St. Ephigenia of Ethiopia
    November 17 St. Hilda, Abbess of Whitby
    November 20 St. Anna, along with St. Thekla and Many Other Men and Women in Persia
    November 20 St. Thekla and Many Others who Suffered in Persia
    November 20 Forefeast of the Entry into the Temple of the Most Holy Theotokos
    November 21 Entry of the Most Holy Theotokos into the Temple
    November 22 St. Apphia, the wife of Philemon, and Equal of the Apostles
    November 22 St. Cecilia at Rome
    November 24 St. Katherine of Alexandria
    November 24 St. Mastridia of Alexandria
    November 27 Icon of the Mother of God “Kursk Root”
    November 27 Icon of the Mother of God of the Sign (the Abalaka)
    November 27 Icon of the Mother of God of Tsarskoe Selo
    November 27 Icon of the Mother of God “Seraphim-Ponetaevka”
    November 27 Commemoration of the Weeping Icon of the Mother of God “of the Sign” at Novgorod
    November 28 Seven Women Martyrs along with St. Irenarchus at Sebaste
    November 28 St. Anna
    December 2 St. Bibiana (also known as St. Viviana) at Rome
    December 2 St. Myrope at Chios
    December 4 Icon of the Mother of God of Damascus
    December 4 St. Barbara of Heliopolis, Syria
    December 4 St. Juliana at Heliopolis, in Syria
    December 5 St. Crispina
    December 7 Icon of the Mother of God of Vladimir of Seliger
    December 7 St. Philothea, the Protectress of Romania
    December 8 St. Anthusa at Rome
    December 9 Conception of Our Most Holy Theotokos by St. Anna
    December 9 Icon of the Mother of God “the Unexpected Joy”
    December 9 St. Hannah, Mother of the Prophet Samuel
    December 10 St. Angelina Brancovich, Princess of Serbia
    December 11 Synaxis of the Saints of Georgia
    December 13 St. Edburga of Minster-in-Thanet
    December 13 St. Lucy of Syracuse
    December 15 St. Evanthia with her son, St. Eleutherius
    December 15 St. Susanna in Palestine
    December 16 St. Sophia of Suzdal
    December 16 St. Theophano, Empress of Byzantium
    December 17 St. Deborah
    December 17 St. Judith
    December 17 St. Miriam
    December 17 St. Rebecca
    December 17 St. Sarah
    December 18 St. Zoe at Rome
    December 19 St. Aglaida (Aglae) of Rome
    December 20 Icon of the Mother of God of Novgorod
    December 20 Icon of the Mother of God “Rescuer of the Drowning”
    December 21 St. Juliana, Princess of Vyazma
    December 21 St. Juliana of Nicomedia
    December 22 St. Anastasia, the Deliverer from Potions
    December 22 St. Theodota, who suffered under Diocletian
    December 24 St. Basilla, at Rome
    December 24 St. Eugenia at Rome
    December 26 Synaxis of Our Most Holy Theotokos
    December 26 Flight Into Egypt of the Holy Family
    December 26 Icon of the Mother of God (the “Blessed Womb”)
    December 28 Icon of the Mother of God of Vilna (also known as “The Three Joys”)
    December 28 St. Agatha, St. Domna, and St. Theophila along with the 20,000 Martyrs of Nicomedia
    December 30 St. Theodora of Constantinople
    December 30 St. Theodora of Caesarea
    December 30 St. Anysia at Thessalonica

  62. lastmod says:

    In the end, the faith could not give a reason for my brother (downs syndrome, and a life spent in hospitals, doctors offices, always sick, chronic health problems and such pain) and when he finally died at the end of June……what was it worth? He was never saved “he didn’t confess by the mouth” (he couldn’t, his mental level was that of a five year old…plus his cleft palette made his speech almost unintelligible). My parents were not even christian when he was born, and put themselves into bankruptcy twice trying to keep him alive in the the 1960’s and into the early 1970’s. The answers I was given (“well, there is sin in the world, that is why he was born like that” and “oh, god saw such favor in you and your family to give a child / brother like this to teach everyone love”)

    yet this deep love gave *them* a “normal, healthy child / brother / sibling”

    i understand the fact that I cannot put a situation like this on a pastor or priest and expect an answer that will make the “downs syndrome” go away. the other incidental questions about my past addiction…….being born “not attractive” but we’re “all equal before him” was impossible to swallow in the end.

    it just came sown to “some are just more blessed, more equal and more loved than others”

  63. lastmod says:

    I don’t believe christians should be killed or silenced for their beliefs. nor do I think these folks are stupid or making a mistake. That’s up to them

  64. Anonymous Reader says:

    Since I am the individual who brought up the topic at least in some small way, I feel obliged to point out that the conservative / orthodox Christian teachings on sex are way out of harmony with the current year. Churchgoing people are going to have to make uncomfortable choices about not just homosexuality but quite possibly polygamy.

    Churches in various denominations have “not noticed” premarital sex for years. But it is fairly easy to pretend the Johnny and Janey, who are engaged, may be spending a lot of time together in private but they aren’t really, y’know, doing anything. As long as they don’t actually shack up and do get married and she doesn’t have a child too soon afterwards, it’s good enough.

    It’s not possible to do that with two men or two women who are obviously a couple.

    It’s untenable to tolerate sex between unmarried (but soon to be married) heterosexuals while rejecting sex between unmarried homosexuals. That worked in the 90’s, but it fails now. It’s open to the charge of “hypocritical” just for a start.

    It could be that standard, conservative, “read the letters on the page” teachings about sex are at the root of these public announcements. There may be other issues on top, but I think some of that is just rationalization.

    Churchgoing people are wandering into a crisis of their own faith, many without realizing it. IMO.

  65. Anonymous Reader says:

    With all the above said, I didn’t even get around to poly-marriage. No time for now, but consider this: “serial monogamy” where a woman has 2 or more husbands over her lifespan is normative for most of the US population. There are some ways that could speed up, and given that most churches have accepted divorce and remarriage as OK, it’s not clear how they could resist “two wives” or “two husbands”. Especially those denominations that have already accepted Heather’s two mommies.

  66. theasdgamer says:

    In the case of an unbeliever married to a believer, the unbeliever’s flesh is sanctified by marriage. The believer’s flesh, however, is sanctified by…faith. In the case of two believers getting married where the woman’s father doesn’t consent to the union, that marriage is sexual immorality and is sin, even if done through some ordained institution.

    It’s good that you are making your gnosticism clear.

  67. theasdgamer says:

    @Derek

    “If a man had sex with a virgin, his punishment was to pay her father a dowry fee. He would also be required to marry her on the spot if the father demanded it. “

    And what if the man said that the woman wasn’t a virgin? And what would the law say about what is going on in our day?

    The point of punishment for premarital sex was to preserve the father’s right to receive a dowry. It’s inapplicable in our day.

    “So, you say, what about non-virgin premarital sex? Well, the only non-virgins were either married (the punishment for adultery was death) or widows.”

    Says who? Are you saying that there were no wild women in Moses’ day?

    @Nova

    My comments about gnosticism are directed at DS, not you.

    @Paul

    It’s good that you quoted the gospel definition from 1 Corinthians. Your quotations from the OT all link idolatry and sex…temple prostitution…I agree that having sex with temple prostitutes is immoral for Christians. Sex with temple prostitutes involves worshipping idols.

  68. Sharkly says:

    Novaseeker says: The Church wrote the New Testament. Protestantism is a rebellion — against authority, which comes from God.

    1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.” That word is the good news that was announced to you.

    Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

    Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. God breathed out and established His eternally enduring New Testament to humankind, made secure by the death of His only begotten Son. With every detail and every jot and tittle committed to being, before the foundation of the world, but only revealed in the fullness of time.

    Protestantism was a holy return to God and a turn against the great whore of Rome, drunken with the blood of holy martyrs. We rebelled against “papal infallibility”, the sale of indulgences, and all sorts of other wicked foolishness, by reading the truth in God’s eternal word. Protestantism began as a return towards God’s truth from the apostasy of the world’s “church”.

    Your Russian Orthodox Church is nearly as full of foolishness as the murderous papists. You’ve already made Czar Nicholas II a saint. And your church is also concertedly working towards rehabilitating the tarnished images of both Rasputin and Steven Seagal, seemingly pushing towards their sainthood. LOL What iconic remnant of Rasputin will you kiss? The only remaining trace of him is what is purported to be his pickled pecker. Will your great grandkids pray to Saint Steven Seagal, the patron saint of lechers? LOL You shouldn’t talk down to protestants, while your own church has such foolishness galore as the phony miracle of mummified saints now shriveled like prunes.

    At least we protestants can speedily disavow our own clowns and their ever emerging heresies, while Orthodox heresies slowly snowball, forever being enshrined as another succeeding layer of unquestionable dogma, until way too long after your own overdue reformation.

    Christ is the head of every man,(1 Corinthians 11:3) not some backwards Russian propaganda peddling priesthood.

  69. Sharkly says:

    Novaseeker,
    You should be ashamed of your churches disgusting sham miracles. They are just as foolish as the Charismatic’s phony-bologna miracles. Their miracles make a mockery of themselves! Apparently this ‘perfectly preserved’ embalmed body was pulled from a crypt after only 5 years, and it is shown as proof that Russian Orthodox saints have the divine power of incorruptibility, but only after they’re dead, of course. LOL
    http://russia-insider.com/sites/insider/files/styles/1200xauto/public/grob4.jpg?itok=d2HidEyW
    Well….sort of,…. if that looks incorrupt to you? Looks pretty corrupt to me!

    My God’s power and miracles raised the dead to life. But, nowadays miracles just ain’t what they used to be. LOL

    You can read the whole sham at Russian-Faith. However, don’t bother, its retarded.

    Here is where you can learn to worship the “Queen of Heaven”: https://russian-faith.com/explaining-orthodoxy/mary-mother-god-queen-heaven-in-bible-n1570

    Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
    See also Jeremiah 44.

    I guess I need a Russian Orthodox priest to split the hair if their is any difference between their idolaters and the Old Testament idolaters?

    Lay off the protestants. I can do this all day. There is no end to the kooky superstitions believed among the “Orthodox”.

  70. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    What made Protestantism possible was Gutenburg and his twenty six lead soldiers. Until then, hand copied Bibles were one to a Church and written in Latin. With the internet, we are on the cusp of social changes just as sweeping. I don’t know where we will end up.

  71. @ asd

    In the case of an unbeliever married to a believer, the unbeliever’s flesh is sanctified by marriage. The believer’s flesh, however, is sanctified by…faith. In the case of two believers getting married where the woman’s father doesn’t consent to the union, that marriage is sexual immorality and is sin, even if done through some ordained institution.

    It’s good that you are making your gnosticism clear.

    Yeah, you’re reaching here.

    If you’re talking about Exodus, Christians are not under the Law.

    If you’re talking about 1 Corinthians, Paul specifies where he gives his opinion as to what is best given the present situation of distress (as opposed to the Lord giving instruction). It’s wise advice to heed but by no means a commandment of the Lord.

    Also, this is off topic. The topic is pre-marital sex, which is a sin according to the Scriptures. I can’t blame you. You can’t get around the first few verses of 1 Corinthians 7 or Galatians 5 on the lusts of the flesh so you gotta go off topic.

    It would be gnostic heresy to claim that the the physical body/material world is evil and a lesser form, but I am not doing any of the sort. The ‘flesh’ mentioned in Galatians 5 is obviously referring to the ‘lusts of the flesh’ not the actual fleshly body. The propensity of man to be tempted toward and to sin. That’s why sex in marriage is holy and unholy out of it.

    Even *if* premarital sex is not a sin for men (which it is, of course), it is for women so such a man would be causing other women to sin. God does not look favorably on these types of people. The Pharisees being a good example of being a stumbling block to others.

    Anyway, this discussion is over. If you want to continue, please take it to your blog. I don’t have time for this nonsense.

  72. @ Sharkly, Nova, etc.

    Please no Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant bashing.

    Clearly no fruit of the Spirit are present in these types of discussions.

  73. Sharkly says:

    Excellent comment, fuzziewuzziebear. @Aug 19, 11:25PM
    Hopefully again, the truth will escape out from under the control of those who now control it.

  74. Derek Ramsey says:

    “The point of punishment for premarital sex was to preserve the father’s right to receive a dowry. It’s inapplicable in our day.”

    You asked where the law punished premarital sex, knowing fully that it did. Now you are moving the goal posts. So:

    “Anyway, this discussion is over. If you want to continue, please take it to your blog. I don’t have time for this nonsense.”

  75. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Sharkly,
    I don’t know where we are going to end up. If the future follows the pattern set by the past, we’re in for some incredible upheavals. Remember hearing about the Thirty Years War?

  76. theasdgamer says:

    DS, “premarital sin” is something invented by churchians. The topic is fornication, not premarital sin.

    “If you’re talking about Exodus, Christians are not under the Law. ” Speaking of going off topic…

    How do you think that the Law is useful today? Maybe because it’s useful for understanding things we talk about as Christians?

    “The topic is pre-marital sex, which is a sin according to the Scriptures.”

    Weak point, pound pulpit. You have offered no evidence for your churchian position except some gnostic arguments.

    “You can’t get around the first few verses of 1 Corinthians 7 or Galatians 5” And you can’t get around the fact that Galatians 5 has nothing to do with 1 Cor. 7 except the connection provided by gnosticism.

    Having sex with a slave was not considered fornication in the ancient world by anybody, including Paul. This is important even if we don’t have slaves in the U.S. because it gives us insight into how ancients thought about sex. For Paul, having sex with slaves wasn’t sin and he didn’t forbid it. Paul forbade incest in 1 Cor., not sex with slaves. Surprisingly, Paul upholds the Law’s prohibition against incest. I thought that Christians weren’t under the Law?

    If sex with slaves is Ok, then it’s hard to see where your gnostic argument has any force. Surely, sex with slaves isn’t sanctified by marriage, which is what is required by your argument for sex to be sanctified.

    For ancients, marriage was about dowries, children, and inheritance. Purity wasn’t a thing, except where it touched on the preceding three reasons for marriage.

    Remember what God said to Abraham about Hagar’s child? ‘So she said to Abraham, “Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac.”’ Inheritance required marriage which prevented slaves from inheriting.

    It’s essential to realize that marriage is about children and their inheritance as well as about fathers and dowries. Women have marital rights. Slaves cannot marry and their offspring have no rights even though they are the biological seed of their owner/father.

  77. theasdgamer says:

    @Ramsey

    “You asked where the law punished premarital sex, knowing fully that it did. Now you are moving the goal posts.”

    Why are you distracting? What was the point of my argument? I wasn’t carelessly moving the goal posts, but was revealing my point at the appropriate time, as planned.

    What did kids do in OT times when they wanted to have sex? They’d go into the countryside and do it. If they were caught, the boy would simply say that the girl wasn’t a virgin and she’d confirm it. If she refused to confirm it, it would still be he said/she said and the boy wouldn’t be punished by the law. The father would punish his daughter (and maybe the boy’s father would punish the boy) and that would be the end of it. There was no punishment under the law that was applied unless young people were really stupid.

    Fathers who wanted to keep their daughters virgin would watch them very carefully and corral them and chase away rounders. Fathers had to have a very realistic understanding of female sexuality. Fathers had to prepare their daughters for marriage, which required training their daughters to corral themselves and avoid rounders.

    Let’s not be silly and stodgy and superficial. Let’s seek understanding.

  78. @ asd

    lol @ arguing the merits of slavery to support pre-marital sex. Things “allowed” under the Law are not always good like divorce. I’ve covered this extensively before.

    Surprisingly, Paul upholds the Law’s prohibition against incest. I thought that Christians weren’t under the Law?

    This is Christianity 101, which you should know. Christians are held to a higher standard than the Law.

    Jesus sums up the Law and the prophets as thus — “Love God and love your neighbor” — and then commands His disciples to “love one another as I have loved you.” A much MUCH higher standard than the Law. Matthew 5 confirms this viewpoint.

    The fact that you’re arguing lowest common denominator of “sin” reveals your attitude toward God. And it’s not good.

    Like I said, take this garbage to your blog. Any further posts will be deleted.

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