The goal for Christian husbands whose wives deny them should not be sex but their wife’s repentance

The previous post on the importance of God’s mission has some salient points for single and married husbands. 

Very few Christian men lead a missional lifestyle, and I think by and large this is also one of the reasons why they are unattractive to women (aside from things like obesity and other factors). Many non-Christian men have a purpose such as the love of money or power or bedding women or whatever. These purposes are obviously sinful and futile in the end, but they are attractive to women because women are attracted to the traits behind these: driven and ambitious.

It would be wise for any single Christian man to know and pursue their God-given mission even before any women come into his life. This way they cannot be put on a pedestal or idolized from the get go, and it correctly models the example of Christ.

Christian husbands who have not been doing this have a harder time, and that’s why “pulling back” from a wife to focus on doing what God has called us to do is so important. It gives God the opportunity to now use our own life as a living witness for Him whereas before there was a dysfunctional pattern of idolization of her feelings and expectations. This was the sin of Adam; intentionally going along with his wife in the garden instead of following God’s command. So too Christian husbands have the choice. It’s a hard one, especially if there have been dysfunctional patterns for years.

A pure focus on God and His mission as first in your life is the model of both 1 Corinthians 7 and Ephesians 5. This is what it means for even a husband to live as if he had no wife. When this is put into perspective of Christ’s love for the Church, we can see it leads to appropriate modeling (spiritually, emotionally, physically, and mentally) of that relationship which helps to break any dysfunctional marriage pattern that has started or existed. Yes, it will be difficult, but following God’s Word has always been that way.

In general, we live in a culture where all of the responsibility in a marriage is heaped on the husband whereas the wife is a perpetual victim of her husband “never doing enough” (to make her happy).

Some would question whether wives who continue in sin (especially if they recognize that the Scripture says sexual denial is wrong) are even Christian. All Christians have their “pet sins” or vices or whatever you want to call them. For wives it’s often pride, envy, contentiousness, disrespect, sexual denial, and things like these. If she is fruitful in other areas of her Christian walk, it’s likely that she’s a Christian. Just an immature one in this area (or possibly many areas). If she’s not fruitful and/or growing spiritually, it’s likely that she’s not.

The goal of the importance of God’s mission and acting as the leader in the home is not sex. Yes, you become more attractive so that generally your wife will want to have sex with you over time. Yes, that’s a good thing. But it’s not the end goal. When you start doing God’s mission for you and acting like a leader in the home, THAT is the way you actually help bring a wife to repentance. Yes, she should be mature enough Christian to realize that she is in sin and needs to repent, but that doesn’t always happen because most Christians are not spiritually mature and can recognize their own pet sins in a world that encourages them.

The end goal is not sex but to help a wife repent. That is what it means for a husband to love his wife for the purpose of sanctification as Christ loved the Church sacrificially (Eph 5). The goal is not sex. The goal is the wife’s repentance.

If repentance is not the goal then sex becomes the idol, and this leads down the road to replacing the idolatry of a wife’s feelings for the different idol of being a slave to your own flesh again. If she denies you, you get butt hurt and into a funk. This is only possible if you are placing sex at a place it doesn’t belong (even though you are owed it). This butt hurt always comes off the wrong way, as it shows a wife that she can still manipulate you with her denial. If she can manipulate you, she has power over you and you are implicitly telling her that you are not acting as the leader. You also fear her denial, leading you to make irrational choices that only contribute to hurt when she does this to you. This only leads back into the dysfunctional cycle of sex denial and more butt hurt.

Instead, the goal should be to model how Jesus did with the sinners of His time. How did He do that? He didn’t shun them or get mad at them (and their sin) but hung out with them and influenced them through his words and actions. Yes, sin is offensive to God, but God is not hurt by any man’s sin. He is angry at it, but he is slow to anger because He desires that all would come to repentance. Jesus ministered to them until they got to a point where they were receptive to His ministry: “go and sin no more” or they went and told others about Him because He had such an impact on their life.

When God’s mission becomes the goal in all areas of your life, it imparts the behaviors that break dysfunctional cycles. Making sex as an idol may temporarily help because your attractiveness may improve, but it does not bring a wife to repentance and it is easy to fall back in the same behavioral patterns. Yet if your goal is to bring a wife to repentance, it is clear that helping a non-Christian or immature Christian wife in these particular areas needs patience and time and good modeling from you to break the cycle. You obey God, and God’s way often wins the other’s hearts back (which often includes the sex that you so desired).

Addendum: I can see in the comments that some people are having difficulty with understanding these concepts.

I am not advocating any sort of asceticism or saying that sex is unholy. What I am saying though is that making your wife your ONEitis even in marriage (especially for sex) is going to lead toward a transactional mindset of “tit for tat” dysfunction that occurs when any sort of denial of sex happens. Husbands are creating covert contracts in their mind that if they only do this one thing (e.g. become more attractive, become a better leader, become more muscular, etc)  that their wife will want to have more sex. Yes, that may be true, but it’s incomplete without repentance.

Yes, the husband and wife freely giving sex to each other is part of the repentance process (though usually the end result of it). Focusing primarily on the sex leads to dysfunction, even though that is what a husband is owed (or wife is owed if a husband is denying her). Repentance leads to reconciliation.

The men who are struggling with this in their marriage and walking it out understand perfectly.

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71 Responses to The goal for Christian husbands whose wives deny them should not be sex but their wife’s repentance

  1. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I wish it were more commonly known how to bring a wife to repentance. I do see problems with this in the current culture. First, women have promoted themselves above men, and, second, peer pressure among women is more powerful than the influence a husband could exert.

    I wish that I could say something more hopeful. I think that women have to crash and burn before they see their error.

  2. Sharkly says:

    Sheila Wray Gregoire says: “Are you treating marriage like an idol? Your purpose in life is not just to be a godly wife.”

    Deep Strength says: “If repentance is not the goal then sex becomes the idol”

    Between the two of you, you sort of just said that if you want to be a godly wife, or a husband who doesn’t accept his wife denying him, you’re an evil idolater just for hungering and thirsting for God’s righteousness in your marriage. Is it really better to let the word of God be openly blasphemed so that Deep Strength or Sheila Wray Gregoire don’t shame us by calling us idolaters for wanting what is holy and pure, and that God’s will would be done?

    This is shaming based upon flimsy logic and silly semantic arguments over words. If repentance means to turn from your sin, then a defrauding wife has not really repented until she is joyfully joining together with her husband in holy unity, into one flesh again. Sex is the only true litmus of whether the cuck’s wife is still full of bullshit, or she has repented and now chooses to be loving in the way she once withheld.

    Somebody went to “church” and refueled on Blue-Pill!
    The goal of the importance of God’s mission and acting as the leader in the home is not sex. Yes, you become more attractive so that generally your wife will want to have sex with you over time. Yes, that’s a good thing. But it’s not the end goal. When you start doing God’s mission for you and acting like a leader in the home, THAT is the way you actually help bring a wife to repentance.

    So if we’re meek, humble, poor in spirit, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty that’s supposed to make her panties wetter than some Dark-Triad player who actively incites the lust of her flesh?
    You’re juxtaposing devotion to God with ruling your wife “according to wisdom”. You’ve got to do both. They both need to be goals, because they are both commanded by God. The other goal that goes along with your devotion to God is not an idol, it’s just something else God has commanded you to do so that His gospel won’t be blasphemed when you and your wife clearly image the church making a cuck of Christ.

    Sorry, Sheila, one of your commands and goals is to be a godly wife. That ain’t an idol, it’s a command from God.
    Sorry, Deep Strength, one of your commands is to see that the marriage bed is kept honorable, not cucked. And that is a command of God. It is not idolatry to keep His commandments. Those who love Him, keep His commandments. You need to rethink your semantics. It isn’t an either sex or repentance situation. It is just one situation where getting your wife to “repent” and to willingly provide the sex you are due, are inseparable.

  3. Anon says:

    “Yes, she should be mature enough Christian to realize that she is in sin and needs to repent, but that doesn’t always happen because most Christians are not spiritually mature and can recognize their own pet sins in a world that encourages them.”

    I think most wives do know they’re wrong when they deny their husbands sex (especially when it starts to get to be a chronic problem). Wives aren’t innocent in that.

    “The end goal is not sex but to help a wife repent. That is what it means for a husband to love his wife for the purpose of sanctification as Christ loved the Church sacrificially (Eph 5). The goal is not sex. The goal is the wife’s repentance.”

    I think you’re over-spiritualizing marriage and sex, something churchians tend to do. Obviously the goal should be both sex (the bonding that creates extreme closeness within a marriage) and repentance. Desiring sex within a marriage is not idolatry.

    Very surprised to read your post! It sounds like something Dalrock would take apart and criticize (hopefully he does LOL)!

  4. @ Sharkly

    So if we’re meek, humble, poor in spirit, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty that’s supposed to make her panties wetter than some Dark-Triad player who actively incites the lust of her flesh?
    You’re juxtaposing devotion to God with ruling your wife “according to wisdom”. You’ve got to do both. They both need to be goals, because they are both commanded by God. The other goal that goes along with your devotion to God is not an idol, it’s just something else God has commanded you to do so that His gospel won’t be blasphemed when you and your wife clearly image the church making a cuck of Christ.

    Sorry, Deep Strength, one of your commands is to see that the marriage bed is kept honorable, not cucked. And that is a command of God. It is not idolatry to keep His commandments. Those who love Him, keep His commandments. You need to rethink your semantics. It isn’t an either sex or repentance situation. It is just one situation where getting your wife to “repent” and to willingly provide the sex you are due, are inseparable.

    You’re making me roll my eyes here.

    Obviously, you need to do both, but you need to keep the sex in the context of repentance.

    God forbid a husband get all of the sex he wants, but fails to help bring his wife to repentance. Yet next time he becomes “unattractive” or fails to be a good leader she goes right back to denying him. It’s the same old dysfunction without repentance.

  5. @ Anon

    I think most wives do know they’re wrong when they deny their husbands sex (especially when it starts to get to be a chronic problem). Wives aren’t innocent in that.

    Maybe, maybe not. The typical Christian is not spiritually mature enough to “love their enemy and do good to those who persecute them” even if they know it is wrong. Heck, many Christian leaders fail at this.

    I think you’re over-spiritualizing marriage and sex, something churchians tend to do. Obviously the goal should be both sex (the bonding that creates extreme closeness within a marriage) and repentance. Desiring sex within a marriage is not idolatry.

    Not quite. I’m the first one to say that we should not be ascetics and that sex is holy in marriage.

    The parallel context I’m talking about is in Matthew 5 where a single man cannot “lust”/covet a single woman. However, he can still make her an idol — a ONEitis in his life.

    A Christian husband should be desiring sex in marriage and wanting to have sex with his wife, but he must understand that it falls under the umbrella of God’s mission first *if* his wife is rebellious.

    As I said to Sharkly:

    God forbid a husband get all of the sex he wants, but fails to help bring his wife to repentance. Yet next time he becomes “unattractive” or fails to be a good leader she goes right back to denying him. It’s the same old dysfunction without repentance.

  6. greyghost says:

    “God forbid a husband get all of the sex he wants, but fails to help bring his wife to repentance. Yet next time he becomes “unattractive” or fails to be a good leader she goes right back to denying him. It’s the same old dysfunction without repentance.”

    This sounds like something Tim Bayly would preach, making the sexual health of a marriage rest solely on the husband’s shoulders of correct (godly) leadership role.

    You’re asserting that a husband’s godly leadership must be godly enough so that she’s attracted to him sexually AND repents of denying him sex.

  7. Somehow your post gives me of what my pastor said to me, “Why make it even harder already for wives to submit?” This is his admonition to me after I shared verses from Proverbs about the nature of women in a small, husbands-only group chat.

  8. Sorry. It should be “reminds me of” rather than “gives me of”.

  9. Trey says:

    How many of you husbands who’s wives deny them sex have disciplined them because of their sin? Do not those in authority have the right AND the responsibility to discipline those that they are responsible for and in authority over?

    Does not society discipline law breakers and does that not only deter bad actions but also make most people value (see the wisdom in and have a positive attitude toward) abiding by the law?

    Do not loving parents discipline their children? Does that discipline (most often) not only lead to repentance of action but of attitude also?

    Does not God discipline those that He loves? Does that discipline (most often) not only result in a change of action but of attitude also?

    Are husbands not told to love their wives as Christ loves the church? Should not a loving husband discipline his wife as Christ disciplines His bride the church? (I am not talking about physical punishment here.)

    If we are told as men to love our wives as Christ loves the church and we are failing in the discipline aspect of that love will God honor our lack of obedience?

    I see so much written about men not acting like leaders and all of these different schemes and games and frame and manipulation and whatnot to try and help them “seem” like more of a leader to their wives but do not leaders (in every other aspect of life) employ discipline when other methods fail to bring about the desired response?

    Men, I love God but I also fear (reverence) Him because I have been disciplined by Him plenty in my life. That is part of how I know that God loves me and that I am His.

    Hebrews 12:6 “For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son He receives.”

    Could it be that this is why your wives don’t love, reverence and submit to you? Why is discipline in the marriage relationship considered off limits? Was it always that way throughout history or is that a result of modern feminism also?

    I can tell you that it was key in bringing my wife to repentance in our marriage. I am not taking credit for that but once I was doing everything that I could to obey God’s instructions for loving my wife (including employing loving discipline), He blessed my obedience and changed my wife’s heart. She went from contentious to submissive; from stubborn to cooperative, from hateful to loving, from being an obstructionist to being helpful, from avoiding me to not being able to get enough of me, and the bedroom (and all over the rest of the house) went from duty to WOW. This, after 25 years of doing it wrong, and then 2 years of doing it right. Discipline was the last thing that I tried and it turned out to be the critical missing part. It made all of the difference and no one was more surprised that it worked than I was.

    It just takes one missing part to keep the most complicated machine from functioning. It just takes one missing ingredient to make a cake unfit for consumption. It just takes one missing expression to get the wrong answer from a 17 page math problem. Could it just be this one missing ingredient that, for all of you men who are otherwise loving their wives properly, is missing and keeping her from becoming the Godly wife (and blessing from God) that she could be?

    I think that loving discipline is one of the key components missing in modern Christian marriages and wives don’t see their husbands as leaders because they don’t act like it and exercise their authority in applying discipline in a loving way.

  10. Joe2 says:

    The post seems to overlook the “elephant in the room” when analyzing this problem. It assumes that she was sexually attracted to her future husband before they got married and the sex in marriage was the natural outcome of this this sexual attraction; better to get married than burn with desire.(1Cor7:9)

    The sad reality is the wife was never strongly or perhaps even mildly sexually attracted to her future husband. Yes, they may have had sex before marriage, she may have seen “in his eyes” her future children and she may have looked forward to the social standing marriage would provide. All of that doesn’t mean she entered the marriage with a healthy sexual desire for her husband.

    In this situation, sex in marriage was nothing more than a charade or pretense for her which made it very easy for her to deny sex. Under such circumstances, the best the husband can expect is to have his wife repent and continue the charade or pretense.

  11. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    A few thoughts from one who is personally all too well acquainted with this issue:

    1) Nobody can force repentance, there is no magic formula or secrete stratagem. Not game, nor even reading the relevant scriptures, only by the work of the Holy Spirit does anyone repent. The Holy Spirit works through means so the man of God should be exercising such means, but he cannot force repentance into the heart of a stiff necked wife.

    2) The church is not a husband’s ally. The leaders are invested in receiving the approval and adoration of females, it is their business model. Expect husband’s to be denigrated, ridiculed and their authority mocked. There is no quarter to be found here for the defrauded husband. On the other hand expect them to validate a wife’s sin by blaming the husband; expect this and many other obstacles to your wife’s repentance. In most situations standing on scripture will make him a reproach and an outcast.

    3) The focus of the husband is on his own response to her defrauding. He must acknowledge that a serious injustice is being done to him, he is a victim of defrauding. He must acknowledge that his wife is resisting her own sanctification as long as she is committed to her sinful actions and attitudes. He must acknowledge that she is rejecting not just him, but Christ. But after a sober inventory of the situation he must also acknowledge that the only thing he has the immediate power to change is his own actions and attitudes. To that end he does not focus on her sin, for that could ensnare him in bitterness. Rather he commits to loving even when unloved, even loving his enemies. In his love he continues to teach, admonish and rebuke from the scriptures, he lovingly disciplines with an eye of caution that he could at any time be accused of one of the 31 flavors of abuse and he prays for his wife’s repentance. He continues to provide safety, shelter, food and a willingness to receive her repentance. He does not become her eunuch, a monastic nor an ascetic. He remains a man, a fully sexual red blooded horny male who is still the head of his house, albeit in the midst of a mutiny.

    4) In the midst of his wife’s defrauding, the church’s apathy and the culture’s disdain, the man of God takes solace in knowing that the testing of his faith is worth more than gold. He perseveres in the knowledge that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called. He knows that his part in this earthly drama to act the part of Christ to the church. The church constantly sins agains her Lord and He still loves His chosen faithfully and without fail. Thus the man of God acknowledges his suffering and the injustice of it, but rejoices because in ways he cannot comprehend Christ is glorified. His union with Christ and His suffering is his reward. Yes he wants his wife’s repentance, yes he wants to have copious amounts of sex with his wife in various moods places and situations, yes he wants the church to repent of her gyno-centric culture, but in the face of all of this he stands joyfully firm on his standing before Christ.

  12. @ greyghost

    This sounds like something Tim Bayly would preach, making the sexual health of a marriage rest solely on the husband’s shoulders of correct (godly) leadership role.

    You’re asserting that a husband’s godly leadership must be godly enough so that she’s attracted to him sexually AND repents of denying him sex.

    Wrong. If the wife will repent of her rebellion by telling her then it’s clear you should do that.

    If the wife is in active rebellion, the husband can only change himself to be more like Christ to influence her to change.

    This is the same as with a wife with a husband that is disobedient to the Word in 1 Peter 3. The wife can influence her husband by being respectful and pure with a gentle and quiet spirit.

  13. @ Trey

    I agree, if the wife accepts discipline. This is not always the case of wives that rebel against both the husbands and the Scriptures like I am talking about in the OP (a more severe case).

    Perhaps you’d like to share a few examples of what you mean.

  14. @ Joe2

    The post seems to overlook the “elephant in the room” when analyzing this problem. It assumes that she was sexually attracted to her future husband before they got married and the sex in marriage was the natural outcome of this this sexual attraction; better to get married than burn with desire.(1Cor7:9)

    Maybe, maybe not. It’s amazing how legitimate respect from a woman influences her to look at her husband to be more attractive (sexually as well).

    It is definitely much harder if she was not burning with passion for you or faked it in the beginning because the foundation is rotten. But it’s not like these things are unsalvagable, by the grace of God.

  15. @ Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    Nobody can force repentance, there is no magic formula or secrete stratagem. Not game, nor even reading the relevant scriptures, only by the work of the Holy Spirit does anyone repent. The Holy Spirit works through means so the man of God should be exercising such means, but he cannot force repentance into the heart of a stiff necked wife.

    Agreed. You can only do what you can through the work of the Holy Spirit and pray that God will use the seeds that you have planted to soften her heart.

    2&4 yup those are the factors working against husbands.

    The focus of the husband is on his own response to her defrauding. He must acknowledge that a serious injustice is being done to him, he is a victim of defrauding. He must acknowledge that his wife is resisting her own sanctification as long as she is committed to her sinful actions and attitudes. He must acknowledge that she is rejecting not just him, but Christ. But after a sober inventory of the situation he must also acknowledge that the only thing he has the immediate power to change is his own actions and attitudes. To that end he does not focus on her sin, for that could ensnare him in bitterness. Rather he commits to loving even when unloved, even loving his enemies. In his love he continues to teach, admonish and rebuke from the scriptures, he lovingly disciplines with an eye of caution that he could at any time be accused of one of the 31 flavors of abuse and he prays for his wife’s repentance. He continues to provide safety, shelter, food and a willingness to receive her repentance. He does not become her eunuch, a monastic nor an ascetic. He remains a man, a fully sexual red blooded horny male who is still the head of his house, albeit in the midst of a mutiny.

    This is indeed the core of the issue. More eloquent than how I wrote it I think.

  16. AngloSaxon says:

    “Yes, sin is offensive to God, but God is not hurt by any man’s sin.”

    Does the Bible agree? Lets find out:

    Genesis 6:5-6 “The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his hearts was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.”

    I don’t agree that God is not hurt by sin, being grieved to your heart sounds like being hurt to me.

  17. Trey says:

    “I agree, if the wife accepts discipline. This is not always the case of wives that rebel against both the husbands and the Scriptures like I am talking about in the OP (a more severe case).

    Perhaps you’d like to share a few examples of what you mean.”

    Well disciplining a wife in our current culture is a tricky prospect. I think that husbands prior to 100 years ago would often just turn their wives over their knee (Mclintock!) and give them a spanking like they did their children but as Jonadab mentioned above, you can easily be accused of “abuse” so those days are pretty much over.

    Each husband will have a different situation but if he expresses his desire to God that he wants to perform loving discipline on his wife then (I believe) God will give him the opportunity and situation to do so.

    The vein of discipline that I am talking about involves removing some of the luxuries or “wants” from her life. We must always provide for our wives needs but most women today have WAY more than their needs met and (too) many of their wants satisfied also. Many of our wives today are spoiled rotten little brats.

    Examples:
    Not purchasing something new for the house that she wants.
    Cutting down on the eating out and fun type activities that you do with her.
    Refusing to buy her a new car (when the old one is still perfectly reliable).
    Canceling the family vacation this year.
    Basically removing/refusing/withholding anything that she “wants” that is not a necessity.

    In my case the first discipline that I performed on my wife (much like Cabinetman with Sunshine Mary) dealt with refusing to repair/replace her dishwasher so that she had to wash all of the dishes by hand. I explained to her that this was discipline for her ongoing, unrepentant sin.

    I told her that just as we discipline our children because we love them and that God disciplines us because He loves us, that I was disciplining her for her sin because I loved her. The change in her outward behaviour was surprisingly instantaneous. The next morning I expected to wake up to the silent treatment but instead walked into a kitchen where she was joyfully singing praise hymns while making my breakfast and served it to me with a smile. I know what your thinking and I checked, there was no broken glass or metal shavings in it and I did not get sick or die so no poison either.

    This is not to say that everything was perfect from that instant on but it was definitely a turning point in the battle. She completely repented of that particular issue that we were dealing with and joyfully washed the dishes by hand for several weeks with out a single complaint. I rewarded her repentance and good behaviour with a new dishwasher. The changes stuck, it was not an act. I was amazed that something that simple could have such a profound effect on her, but it did.

    To me, it’s not what the particular discipline is, it is just the fact and the idea that you are exercising your authority over her by disciplining her for her (ongoing, unrepentant) sin. Discipline is critical for raising our children and it’s critical in Gods dealings with us (His bride) so how can it not also be critical in dealing with our wives?

  18. SnapperTrx says:

    The old fix to this problem would be to either take sex from your wife or take on a second wife.

    Both solutions have been taken from men by the church and the state.

    Sex is a right within a marriage, not a privilege. If a man were to withhold a wife’s right to food, clothing and shelter from her count the milliseconds before the church shames him into fulfilling his duties and screw his repentance. Oh, it will come up, but only AFTER he has continued fulfilling his duties as a husband.

    This is a problem that I keep bringing up and it doesn’t appear to be something that will go away any time soon. A wifes/womans baseline obedience to God is her acknowledging her husband exists and that is it. Anything above that must be earned by her husband and he should “feel lucky” if she does them. Does your wife cook every night? Lucky. Sex once or twice a week? Lucky. Do as she is told without argument? Lucky again! Meanwhile a mans baseline obedience to God is making sure he provides food, clothing, shelter, transportation without fail, and even then we are told he is not doing enough! He must work harder, provide more, never take a resting moment when there is something he could be doing to help his wife or make her life easier.

    Oh, there’s an idol about, but I hardly think sex is it in this situation.

    Is a wife still a christian if she is intentionally and willfully being disobedient to the commandments of God? Is a man still a christian if he intentionally and willfully disobeys the commandment to “love his wife as his own flesh”? Is a man still a christian if his “pet sin” is adultery? Or beating his wife? Or drugs? At some point he must become a mature enough christian to leave those sinful things behind. Its as I say about gay christians. Can a man be gay and a christian? Yes! But he cannot stay that way! Eventually he must face the choice of picking one or the other, because one is disobedience and sin against God, and one is not.

    There was a time when men held their wives to be obedient instead of pussyfooting around and hoping they would see the light on their own. When a mans children are disobedient he doesn’t simply stand there and pick his nose and hope they figure things out for themselves. If he did he would be called a bad father. Nor should he simply stand around and hope that his wife will suddenly see the light, but he must be proactive in correcting her. Hence the bible instructs him to “wash her in the water of the word”, but he is also an authority over her, and able to mete out discipline where necessary, and he should, to the best of his ability. Failure to do so is failure to fulfill the role God has given him.

  19. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I do remember reading about a self reported survey of married people. Among Americans, twenty percent said that they had not had sex in over a month and had no idea when they were going to have sex again. For the Japanese, it was fifty percent. Since the survey was self reported, sexless marriage had to be under reported.
    I think we have a problem.

  20. greyghost says:

    “If the wife is in active rebellion, the husband can only change himself to be more like Christ to influence her to change. This is the same as with a wife with a husband that is disobedient to the Word in 1 Peter 3. The wife can influence her husband by being respectful and pure with a gentle and quiet spirit.”

    I’m confused, now you’re suggesting the husband start following what 1 Peter 3 tells the submissive one to do?

  21. SnapperTrx says:

    This is, unfortunately what the churches are doing right now is teaching an inversion of the word. The wife is told to be silent and submit while the husband is told to be active and wash his wife with the water of the word, but current church teaching is that the wife has all the control and the husband can do nothing active unless he is a brute and heathen. He should instead become passive and just let his wife figure it out on her own. Prayer is definitely a good idea in the situation, but I can promise you that most women couldn’t care a table flip about their husband spiritual life when they are angry with them or at odds with them. You can pray all you want and recite scripture and tell her how sinful she is being, but she won’t care a wit for your words. What will get her attention are your ACTIONS. Prayer and ditching her on the weekend for a day in the sun and fun at the coast will get her attention. Especially if you turn off your phone and leave her with little more than a note that says: “Went to the coast. Later.”. The white knights in the church will say your rude and unloving for doing this, but the old christian men in the old books would give you a right slap on the back were they still alive. They are the ones who warned their sons about the wiles of a woman and how to avoid letting her get into your head and control your life because the knew the wisdom God had given man:

    7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

    8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    Since ancient days followers of the bible understood the authority structure between man and wife. That’s why not even 50-60 years ago a man spanking his wife wasn’t unheard of. She is under the same authority as a man has over his children, and can be disciplined as such: Within reason, and for good purpose. That wisdom is not lost but merely ignored as our enlightened church has found the TRUE meaning of the word, leaving behind original wisdom for new wisdom, poisoned with feminism and tainted by allowing society to shape the church instead of the church shaping society.

    Your observation is astute. Don’t lose hold of it.

  22. @ AngloSaxon

    I don’t agree that God is not hurt by sin, being grieved to your heart sounds like being hurt to me.

    Meh. Poor choice of wording by me.

    All sin is offensive and grieves God, but it does not “hurt” Him in the sense that He does not become slow(er) to anger or less abounding in love.

    Also, you’re comparing apples to oranges. All of humankind’s sin is referenced in that passage and not just one man’s. But you could make the case for a few times when Moses offended God so I’ll give you that point.

  23. @ greyghost

    I’m confused, now you’re suggesting the husband start following what 1 Peter 3 tells the submissive one to do?

    No, I am saying that whether the husband or the wife is disobedient their spouse needs to follow God’s marital roles and responsibilities.

    God’s marital roles and responsibilities are UNCONDITIONAL. Husbands do not get a get out of loving and honoring their wife is they are acting bad. Wives do not get a get out of respecting and submitting their husbands if they are acting bad.

    At the end of the day, you responsibility to God is to:

    1. Do what God tells you in the Scripture to the best of your ability. This is the marital roles and responsibilities. They are different if you are a husband or a wife.

    I mentioned both because they parallel each other in that they are unconditional.

    2. Be filled with the fruit of the Spirit so that God can use your good behavior to win the disobedient/rebellious/non-Christian/lukewarm Christian/etc.

    You will stand before God on judgment day and give an account for YOUR actions. Not your spouses.

    God does not look favorably on playing the blame game, like in the garden of Eden when Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. He will ask you why did you not choose to obey me even if your spouse wasn’t acting the way they should. You do not want to be speechless at this.

  24. Sharkly says:

    @greyghost
    “I’m confused, now you’re suggesting the husband start following what 1 Peter 3 tells the submissive one to do?”

    yeah, I caught that too. But don’t be confused by it. Just keep calling him on it, and that will sharpen him. You are wise to see it.

    @ Deep Strength
    Poor choice of wording by me.
    I hope so. It seems like you have a churchian view of God and that has come out on this post.
    Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
    That should strike fear into your heart! Those of us who are like God in this regard understand the murderous rage of Jealousy. God, whose first given name is “Jealous” will burn the vast majority of people and a third of His angels in unquenchable fire for all eternity, where there will be no rest, and the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever before our Holy God. The vast majority of mankind are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction by a Holy and Jealous God, who will have no others put before Him!

    FYI Jealousy is wanting what is rightfully yours, or your due. Envy is wanting what belongs or is due to others.

    You said: “Husbands do not get a get out of loving and honoring their wife if they are acting bad.”

    1 Peter 3:7a Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life;
    That honor is not due to those women who by their rejection of following after God are no longer heirs of grace, but have chosen to be contemptible vessels of God’s wrath instead.

    Proverbs 31:3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings. … 10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. … 30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.

    Women’s “honor” is conditional. While men are the image and glory of God.(1 Corinthians 11:7)

    You said: “God forbid a husband get all of the sex he wants, but fails to help bring his wife to repentance.”

    Our God, Jealous, has created the woman to reverence His image, man. It is righteous for her to have sex with her own husband, not just premarital fornications with other men who are not hers.
    Righteousness in itself, is demanded by God. Even when there is not repentance, God still desires right living.
    Romans 2:11 For God shows no partiality. 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. … 25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

    God want’s all to repent, but our God, Jealous, also wants the heathen to live righteous lives because they are His creation and His possession. God created the woman to help, mate, and reverence her husband.
    God surely does not forbid that a husband get all the sex he wants from his wife, even if she is unwilling to repent of her unbelief. God jealously want’s his image to be reverenced even by an unrepentant wife. Stop trying to use your platform to defraud men of sex by attempting to shame those of us who still have a functioning desire for our unrepentant wives. And it is loving to lead her in paths of righteousness for God’s name sake, even while she is still unrepentant.

  25. greyghost says:

    “God does not look favorably on playing the blame game, like in the garden of Eden when Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. He will ask you why did you not choose to obey me even if your spouse wasn’t acting the way they should. You do not want to be speechless at this.”

    I’m not the one claiming sexually deprived men are idolaters. Or that they just aren’t leading correctly.

  26. AngloSaxon says:

    “Also, you’re comparing apples to oranges. All of humankind’s sin is referenced in that passage and not just one man’s.”

    Very well, Ephesians 4:29-30 “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”

    The command to not grieve the Holy Spirit is surrounded by exhortations to put off unrighteousness and put on righteousness, such as the verse preceding it, if we go on sinning we will grieve the Holy Spirit!

  27. @ Sharkly

    I hope so. It seems like you have a churchian view of God and that has come out on this post.

    Not quite.

    I’ve said previously that God’s marital roles and responsibilities are unconditional (to both the husband and wife) are true.

    That’s how God uses the spouse to influence the unrepentant spouse.

  28. @ greyghost

    I’m not the one claiming sexually deprived men are idolaters.-

    This is false. Quote me where I said that.

    I said that men who place sex above repentance can place sex as an idol just as any man can have ONEitis and place his wife as an idol above God.

    . Or that they just aren’t leading correctly.

    Half truth. A husband could lead perfectly (Jesus) and the Church can be rebellious.

    In most cases, both the husband and wives each have failings which is the most common scenario in today’s Church.

  29. OK, it is apparent that y’all aren’t getting the point.

    A wife that is in rebellious against her husband by denial of sex is in sin. It is a grievous act against the husband. But a wife’s sin should motivate a husband to love and compassion for her. God did not send Jesus to complain about His rights and judgment over us here on earth. He sent Him because He showed to His love for us in this: while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

    Mark 2:15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

    17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    A husband should care more about fulfilling His marital roles and responsibilities to God rather than focusing on his rights. If he places his rights (sex) above his own behavior, that is making an idol out of it. Focusing on God’s marital roles and responsibilities puts things into proper context.

    God calls husbands Biblical marital roles and and responsibilities (which are UNCONDITIONAL regardless of how the wife acts and vice versa for the wife as seen in 1 Peter 3) because they are able to influence the wife toward righteousness. A husband that is constantly butthurt about not getting sex (though it is his right) will influence the wife toward more sin rather than repentance. This is not good. Quoting Scripture at a wife rare influences her to change. It does happen, but it’s rare.

    This is making the same mistake as SJWs and feminists who claim everything is about rights, equality, and justice. You don’t influence or win anyone by doing that. You influence them by focusing on what God says to do, which is exhibit the fruit of the Spirit through loving correction and fulfilling your roles and responsibilities to God.

  30. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I do have an issue with all this. Why is the man being addressed? He is not the one in rebellion against God and nature. As for leading, have we failed to notice that women have promoted themselves to be superior? Her peer group is going to have more influence with her than her husband, who pays all the bills, will ever have. The problem is women are being led by crazy, short sighted, self destructive women. Sane women leaders are sitting on the sidelines.
    In order to reinforce this, women have allied with government to oppress men. I do see hope in Deep Strengths’s observation of feminism, Women=God>Men. God has been displaced by this imposed hierarchy. I think that men should find a way to ally with Him.

  31. SnapperTrx says:

    Can you explain how you reach the conclusion that a man makes “sex into an idol”? I’ve looked up the instances of the world ‘idol’ through the entire bible and in only one spot do I see it used not in reference to a physical object, ie: An actual idol. The only place it seems not to be used in lieu of a physical object is in Colossians 3:5 where covetousness is likened to idolatry, but covetousness is still referencing a physical object, so that makes sense.

    Can a desire for sex be made an idol? Is a desire for food an idol, or the toilet if one needs to use it very badly? I ask in seriousness, so please don’t think I am making light of you. I ask because I keep hearing people talk about making emotions or thoughts idols and given the apparent biblical definition it seems to throw a lot of people off.

    If a man has a servant and that servant is disobedient in doing his job does this make the job an idol to the man, if he very much desires to have it done?

    See this is where we get off track, I think. Lets say this man has a boss, and that boss wants this job complete. He tells the man “I hired you servants to get this job done, so get it done”. Now if that man goes to the servant and the servant will not fulfill his duties he will be punished (or fired) because this man has authority over him given by his boss, and his boss is expecting work to be done. If the man stands by and chides the servant and hopes he will change his ways he is not using the authority given him. If he proceeds to pester the boss the boss will eventually tell him, “What are you doing? I’ve given you authority to handle this situation, why haven’t you done what you must?”

    It seems like sitting in front of a plate of food while your starving and praying God lift the food to your lips. He has given you hands and arms. Use them.

    In the same manner God has given husbands an authority over their households, over their wives and children. Both fall under the same authority. If a man must discipline his wife, as is his right by the authority given to him, then he must. That’s not to say that prayer should not be part of it, but again if we put the shoe on the other foot and a man deny his wife her right to food would we instruct her not to get butthurt over dinner? To sit and wait in patient prayer as the third week of no food passes by? Has she a right to take food from his table and eat it so that she does not starve? What about clothing? If he denies her clothing does she have the right to take one of his blankets and cover herself to protect her modesty outdoors or to protect her from the elements, or should she merely sit in prayer as she walks the street and goes to the store naked? Or out into the freezing cold?

    It seems very easy to come down on men because, hey, its only sex, and you won’t die without it and somewhere we got the notion that husbands require permission or a secret code of sweet words, gifts and emotions to unlock it from their wives, but this is not the case. Does it make it easier? Yeah. Does it make it more fun? It can, yes. But can a man, denied sex by his wife for weeks on end, months on end, years on end, demand it or even take it from her. Yes. She belongs to him. Her body is his, and there is nothing required of him using her for such a purpose. In fact, Paul even tells us that if we cannot contain our desires then to take a wife, if for nothing more than to avoid burning with desire, which will lead to sin. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not an invitation to do so, but merely a passing of God given knowledge from Paul to the church: Better this than to sin.

    Also, anyone with an answer to my question, please feel free to respond, I would really like to know where this whole, “Everything can be an idol” thing got started.

  32. Sharkly says:

    I would really like to know where this whole, “Everything can be an idol” thing got started.

    Well, since we’re talking specifically about sex being an idol, I think the term “sex-idol” was coined when I entered early adulthood, at least I remember always hearing it, especially when I took my shirt off back then. 😉

  33. SnapperTrx says:

    I can see making a person an idol, they are a physical thing. Ezekiel talks about “idols of the heart”, but it seems to reference people who worshipped other gods without having a physical idol, but they worshipped in secret so as not to be outted. I’ll have to read it again.

  34. SnapperTrx says:

    Also, I get the joke. 😆

  35. @ fuzzie

    I do have an issue with all this. Why is the man being addressed? He is not the one in rebellion against God and nature.

    If you are a husband in a marriage with a non-believing wife or rebellious wife, you have your duty to God to influence her toward salvation and/or repentance.

    Same for the wife with a non-believing husband or lukewarm Christian husband.

    Come on now. This is basic Christianity 101. 1 Corinthians 7.

  36. @ SnapperTrx

    Can you explain how you reach the conclusion that a man makes “sex into an idol”? I’ve looked up the instances of the world ‘idol’ through the entire bible and in only one spot do I see it used not in reference to a physical object, ie: An actual idol. The only place it seems not to be used in lieu of a physical object is in Colossians 3:5 where covetousness is likened to idolatry, but covetousness is still referencing a physical object, so that makes sense.

    Can a desire for sex be made an idol? Is a desire for food an idol, or the toilet if one needs to use it very badly? I ask in seriousness, so please don’t think I am making light of you. I ask because I keep hearing people talk about making emotions or thoughts idols and given the apparent biblical definition it seems to throw a lot of people off.

    You don’t think any man’s ONEitis (whether married or single) is an idol? That’s the main theme of what we’re talking about here. A ONEitis is a woman that a man goes after at the expense of everything else, usually because of feelings and/or sex.

    Specifically in the context of this post, Christian husbands who keep tunneling in onto leadership, working out, and so on as a means to get sex and then it backfiring because they are not getting the results “as expected.” Covert contracts with God. If I only do X, Y, and Z the wife will be attracted again, and I’ll get sex. “If I’m only godly enough then…” This is a basic summation, and it goes deeper than that.

    Come work with some of the men on reddit and it is clear as day.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/

  37. SnapperTrx says:

    Look, I want to assure you that I am in no way being combative, but I visit the subreddit from time to time and Im not asking for validation from Reddit on the issue. You made the assertion, so I ask, as earnestly as possible, can YOU back up the claim that men can even make sex into an idol through the scripture, or that a man being frustrated by his wife’s denial of sex is committing a sin or creating an idol out of an emotion or a physical problem, as a man’s body will surely crave the release of sex like his body would eventually crave food. It’s a disservice to make the claims and not be able to scripturally back them up. Again we can easily make the case that a man not providing for his own is “worse than an infidel”, so how is what you are describing a sin?

  38. Sharkly says:

    I think Deep Strength is just giving sexually stingy women the ammunition they need to shoot down their husbands. No longer am I trying to encourage her to quit sexually immoral withholding and to become loving. Thanks to Deep Strength I’m backsliding into idolatry and my wife needs to keep denying me all sex so that I can get victory over my flesh. ‘Cuz if I do get her to put out, that’ll compromise her repentance, he reckons. And if you’re not excited about becoming one of his sexually defrauded disciples, then you’re butthurt, like our Jealous God, got it? LOL

    I dealt with this exact topic before:
    https://laf443259520.wordpress.com/2019/06/10/down-the-cuckoldry-rabbit-hole-and-youre-into-the-church-basement/

  39. Jack says:

    This is a great post. However, more attention should be given to individual contexts, otherwise, the advice in the OP and in the comments above could be easily mistaken as inappropriate.

    I think Joe, Jonadab, Snapper, and Trey have picked up on the main point of the post, which is that husbands should stay focused, and not let their need for sex make them subservient to their wives. This is very difficult to maintain, and this post offers some regular encouragement for men who are struggling with this.

    GreyGhost and Sharkly are emphasizing the point that a husband’s godly leadership (however you want to interpret that) doesn’t always lead to the wife’s repentance (in the form of creating attraction and increasing her interest in her sexual duties to her husband).

    The quality of sex in a marriage might be taken as a litmus test of how strong the marriage is. Granted, this is a man’s perspective, and there are probably some exceptions, but I think the point stands. If your wife is frigid for any length of time, for any reason, then your marriage will slowly drift off to hades, and take you along with it. If this is a recalcitrant and recurring problem, and the wife has no interest in repenting of her neglect, then there is not a lot of hope to improve the union.

    If you’re a Christian man intent on achieving sanctification, then her non-repentance is totally unacceptable. As important as it might be, the main problem with the husband attempting to solve this problem by being obedient (through cooperating with the work of the Holy Spirit) is that it doesn’t guarantee the wife’s repentance, which is taken to be a necessary condition for sanctification to occur. If the wife is unresponsive to the Holy Spirit, and she really doesn’t care about spiritual growth, or the health of the marriage, then what can a Christian man do? In this case, a marriage to such a woman is little more than an open door allowing Satan into the man’s life. This is exactly why the Bible warns us against “being yoked to an unbeliever”.

    A wife who is sexually lazy is actually a subtle rebellion that works through attrition. It seems that the most important piece of information that is missing in the OP is how to deal with this problem effectively. Trey advocates loving discipline, and I agree. There is a severe drought of information about how to administer discipline, and this is why I’ve studied this extensively and written many posts on the subject.

    This is also why I’m hesitant to reject Game altogether, as DS has. If you have an immature or unbelieving wife who insists on being feral, then you have to be kind of the same. Otherwise, the marriage is doomed, and depending on how much you’ve got invested in your marriage, possibly your life and your children’s lives as well. I think Game can be employed to reinforce discipline in a way that an unregenerate wife will respond to. Getting her response is the first step, and then you can focus on improving her response, and eventually wean her off of the fleshly methods.

  40. SnapperTrx says:

    But here is where I see the problem with what I am reading. Christianity 101 is this, that a wife’s witness to her husband is passive while a husband’s is active. Women are told that their quiet obedience is her witness toward her husband, drawing him toward repentance. Men are instructed to actively work their wives toward salvation through the washing in the water of the word. The two are different but work toward the same goal. For a man to sit in silence and submit to his wife’s authority, which is really what this denial of sex is, is to ignore Gods instruction and invert the order written in the word.

  41. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    I feel for men who are stuck in this. For those of us who never married, this is an object lesson in hazard. I have to wonder if being set up for this was in the plan. We all have to decide on our own, is this acceptable?
    Also, I can’t see women being asked to accommodate their husbands if the shoe was on the other foot.
    A terrible price is being asked of men to support a gynocentric society.

  42. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Another thought. Paul wrote for a first century AD audience. What we are seeing in the present, he could not anticipate on the scale that we are experiencing. Then, the man could expect women to meet him halfway. At present, men have to go the whole distance and it is not valued.

    There is a nagging thought that keeps coming up, the Israelites spent four hundred years in Egypt. No man’s patience is that long.

  43. Trey says:

    “Christianity 101 is this, that a wife’s witness to her husband is passive while a husband’s is active. Women are told that their quiet obedience is her witness toward her husband, drawing him toward repentance. Men are instructed to actively work their wives toward salvation through the washing in the water of the word. The two are different but work toward the same goal. For a man to sit in silence and submit to his wife’s authority, which is really what this denial of sex is, is to ignore Gods instruction and invert the order written in the word.” What SnapperTrx said is exactly correct.

    Of course both the man and the woman are to live out the Christian roles that God has assigned them regardless of whether their spouse is doing the same but the roles are VERY different.

    Women are to be quiet, submit, and serve in all reverence.
    Yes, husbands are to agape their wives, they are to be patient, kind, not envy, not boast, not be proud, rude, or self-seeking. Men are to not be easily angered, keep no account of wrongs, take no pleasure in evil, but rejoice in the truth. Men are to bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things and never fail. BUT, they are also to be washing their wives in the word which literally means teaching the scriptures to her. They are also required to discipline when that seems the best option and THIS is where I believe that a lot of men are not LOVING their wives as they should and might be the missing link to success. As Jack said above “There is a severe drought of information about how to administer discipline.”

    Men are meant for ACTION, not to sit idly by in quiet submission and let their wives run amuck. Out of ignorance, I did this for almost 25 years and it DOES NOT lead to a wives repentance. When a man does this, she just gets worse and worse. In my opinion, there should be a lot less talk of frame and game and self improvement and much more discussion on HOW to properly and lovingly discipline a wife.

  44. I think Deep Strength is just giving sexually stingy women the ammunition they need to shoot down their husbands.

    Now you’re just being absurd.

    No one is saying that wives who are denying are not in sin. They are in grave sin.

  45. @ SnapperTrx

    For a man to sit in silence and submit to his wife’s authority, which is really what this denial of sex is, is to ignore Gods instruction and invert the order written in the word.

    Uh, no, the husband is not sitting in silence.

    1. You first call her to repentance via the Word (and hopefully friends, family, Church.. although that is dubious nowadays).

    2. If that doesn’t work, continuing in that line of endeavor is unfruitful. Then you focus onto God’s marital roles and responsibilities including possibly some of what Trey has commented on meting consequences if the situation warrants it.

  46. @ Jack

    Good summation.

    As you said, repentance is never guaranteed unfortunately. But the goal is obeying God despite the ugliness of the situation.

    It’s not that I reject game per se (although definitions of game are always vague) but the majority of the results are coming from ownership of self. Not trying to change a woman’s feels (like most game techniques are). If you change the man in the majority of the cases the woman changes too.

    One of the mods on RPChristians made a good point that I agree with. Hardware problem or software:

    I’d say the majority of Christian husbands have a hardware problem which makes any type of software problem (game included) ineffectual.

    To go back to the old analogy: an unattractive man who gives a woman flowers is a creep. An attractive man who gives a woman flower is romantic.

  47. @ fuzzie

    I feel for men who are stuck in this. For those of us who never married, this is an object lesson in hazard. I have to wonder if being set up for this was in the plan. We all have to decide on our own, is this acceptable?

    It’s always a count the cost situation for single men.

    Also, I can’t see women being asked to accommodate their husbands if the shoe was on the other foot. A terrible price is being asked of men to support a gynocentric society.

    That’s why you have to influence your woman/wife into such a woman. If she doesn’t start to change, then you know that she probably has a rebellious streak that runs deeper that would not be good in marriage.

  48. SnapperTrx says:

    Methinks I see a little too much “Reddit says” and not enough “The bible says” in this post. No ill will, but I’m out. Enjoy.

  49. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    I am reminded of the very, very old joke about banging my head against a brick wall.
    There aren’t that many cooperative women out there. Consider Donalgraeme, he’s still looking and women like him. It was easy enough to see in the comments when his blog was more active.
    What I think is going to happen is that women are going to chase the cads, the dads will walk away, and, then, all the girls will be crying when they can’t find a seat when the music stops.

  50. Pingback: On creeps and romantics and obedience to God | Christianity and masculinity

  51. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    The part about Donal still frosts my pumpkin. While I have not seen a picture of him or met him in person, I’ll bet a doughnut that there is nothing wrong with him. I’ll bet another that his list is short and amount to finding a girl he can live with. The part that gets to me is that they can see instantly that he is sincere and that works like garlic on vampires.

  52. Sharkly says:

    Deep Strength I really am surprised by this post still. It is just wrong on so many points.
    Deep Strength said: If repentance is not the goal then sex becomes the idol, and this leads down the road to replacing the idolatry of a wife’s feelings for the different idol of being a slave to your own flesh again. If she denies you, you get butt hurt and into a funk.

    All of that is wrong! And it is the same blue pill lies of the apostate churchians. Sex with your wife is not an Idol. 1 Corinthians 7:5 tells us that married sex is God’s way for us to avoid temptation, it is not idolatry. I haven’t had sex with my wife in 3 years, but apparently I’m a “slave” to it because I’d still like to have some, even though she is denying me. I’d like to have her do what is right, so I’m a slave and an idolater, and you say I’m “butthurt” because I’m not content to masturbate like she told me to, and I could have done without ever marrying her and paying for her to live off of me while slandering me and falsely accusing me of exactly what you have. My wife claimed I was a sex/porn addict(or slave/idolater) just because I still wanted sex, and I confessed to her that I had looked at porn, hoping that she might then want to help me by obeying the Bible which explains in 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 that married sex is God’s remedy for the temptation to all sexual immorality. Instead I was divorced and I was stripped of my sons, and they of their father, for nine moths until I had completed two full psychological evaluations and a drawn out assessment by a divorced Feminazi, And all three could find no trace of any defect of personality, abnormal sexual development, or any hint of addiction. Nevertheless, she, her church, and you are still happy to label any man who wants sex with his withholding wife as a slave and an idolater, for wanting God’s best. The only difference is where you draw the line on who is enslaved and in idolatry. You might allow me begrudged sex a few more times a year before you declare me a vile slave of the flesh. But they can use your argument as their ammunition, and just ratchet down the ration of sex until near-zero becomes the point of idolatry. You have criminalized my God given natural male sex drive. I think that your statement “If she denies you, you get butt hurt” could be an analogy for: If we deny God, He is Jealous. Only you make that analogous image of God in man, into a point of ridicule by calling it “butt hurt”, instead of Jealous, which is the name of God. You’re literally shaming me for getting Jealous like God!

    I and my sons have been ripped apart by this wicked divisive slander before. Quit it! As SnapperTrx pointed out, this nonsense does not originate in the Bible.

    Deep Strength, just like churchians, trots out his personal version of “Buddy Christ” to prove his point:
    Jesus ministered to them until they got to a point where they were receptive to His ministry: “go and sin no more” or they went and told others about Him because He had such an impact on their life.
    Most people were not receptive to Jesus ministry. For every group of disciples won there was an angry mob wanting to stone Jesus to death. I believe some of Jesus escapes from them were miraculous. He whipped the sellers in the temple. He argued with and called the Pharisees and Jewish leaders bad names. Eventually the crowds of Jerusalem even demanded their Roman overlords crucify Jesus,one of their own, immediately, rioting and opting to free the notorious Barabbas in order to force Jesus Christ to be killed that same day.
    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    By your own “reception” logic, I must be a better leader than Jesus Christ because they’d already rejected and crucified Him by the age of 33, after only three years of ministry.

    Deep Strength says: If she can manipulate you, she has power over you and you are implicitly telling her that you are not acting as the leader.
    LOL Have you even been married? I became one flesh with my wife. of course she can manipulate me and have power over me. I’m the head, and she is the body. She could have killed me in my sleep. Of course you trust your life to your mate, and they have power over you. But that does not mean I willingly ceded my leadership, or failed to lead her. If most people rebel against God, I fear even my good leadership can be subverted. Women aren’t sinless. My wife returned evil for good.

    Deep Strength says: When God’s mission becomes the goal in all areas of your life, it imparts the behaviors that break dysfunctional cycles. Making sex as an idol may temporarily help because your attractiveness may improve, but it does not bring a wife to repentance and it is easy to fall back in the same behavioral patterns.
    LOL So, now, a little idolatry might help? All Aboard! Crazy-Train!

    Deep Strength says: Quoting Scripture at a wife rarely influences her to change. It does happen, but it’s rare.
    Who cares what you think! Ephesians 5:25-27 says all husbands should try to sanctify their wives, washing them with the Word of God in order to make them holy. When I come before God to be judged I’m not going to mutter, “But Deep Strength said that rarely works…”

    Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    I liked most of your red-pilled posts better than this one. Get back to the good stuff.

  53. @ Sharkly

    Deep Strength I really am surprised by this post still. It is just wrong on so many points.

    I can see this is a sore topic for you. Yes, your wife was/is in sin. Yes, you may have done nothing wrong. In fact, if you did nothing wrong and were the model of Jesus in the marriage then this post is not addressing you. This post is/was for husbands caught in the trap of focusing on pointing out the Scriptures to the wife about sex and continually getting denied and flailing their hands why nothing is working.

    I may have worded things poorly at points, but the fact of the matter is that pointing at the Scriptures often does nothing because the wife already does not willingly obey the Scriptures (or the husband for that matter). Tell her once and then that’s it. Focusing onto God’s marital roles and responsibilities are the way Christian husbands can influence their spouse toward repentance (and often sex again).

    Deep Strength says: Quoting Scripture at a wife rarely influences her to change. It does happen, but it’s rare.

    Way to quote out of context. I’ve always said to tell the wife that she is wrong via the Scriptures first. If she doesn’t listen, then keeping throwing them at her doesn’t work. Obviously.

  54. RICanuck says:

    We Christians pronounce a terrible judgement against ourselves when we say the Our Father.
    “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”
    Praying the Our Father while asking for a spirit of forgiveness has helped me. It has not improved the marriage. It has not made me any happier, but has almost removed most of my butt hurt.
    The Grace received from this has helped me put God first in my life and marriage.

  55. Sharkly says:

    Deep Strength says: I’ve always said to tell the wife that she is wrong via the Scriptures first. If she doesn’t listen, then keeping throwing them at her doesn’t work. Obviously. … Tell her once and then that’s it. … This post is/was for husbands caught in the trap of focusing on pointing out the Scriptures to the wife about sex and continually getting denied and flailing their hands why nothing is working.

    You’re still wrong, and you’re still talking directly about me. I am that man who is continually using God’s word to convict my wife. You churchians call it “spiritual abuse”.
    How many times would you teach your son not to chase a ball out into the street without stopping and looking for cars? Would you only correct him the first time? And then say, “screw that kid, I warned him already.” I’d keep correcting my little one until he obeyed. So too with women!

    Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
    You are judging the efficacy of God’s word according to your eyes of flesh. Even when the sinner does not repent, sharing the word of God serves to convict them and leave them without excuse, naked before the throne of God. You don’t wage a spiritual battle according to your physical observations, but by direction from your divine commander.
    2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.

    Sorry, Deep Strength, but I’ve weighed your arguments in the balance, and I’m going to double down on my use of the words of God with my wife. Whereas the churchians thought It “Spiritual Abuse” before, I’m announcing a campaign of Spiritual Psychological Warfare. At this point I’m pretty close to being “all in” already. I have been the good shepherd who has laid his life down for his sheep. I’m not going to let Satan’s minions snatch my ewe, without jailing me or martyring me, but I’m going to push the issue and force the unequally yoked one to decide to finish her divorce or to be in subjection. The only reconciliation will be her surrender, or she gets her divorce, the days of compromise have passed. When she makes vows against our marriage vow, I void them, in the day that I hear of them. When she makes rules(boundaries) for me, I disregard them, or even make a point to break them just to reestablish our true order. She is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, I will not willingly let any of mine go down into the pit. I will not stand idly by, silenced by Satan. I’m not a woman to win my spouse without a word. I’m a man who will speak giving an account of my charge to God Himself some day.

    By His supreme power He founded the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it … The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word into existence. Having before created the sea and the living creatures therein, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all, as the most excellent and exceeding great work of His intelligence, with His sacred and faultless hands He formed man in the impress of His own image.

    I wasn’t made to cower and keep silent before a usurping woman, or even to veil my head in the presence of God, because I’m in His likeness, and commanded to be an imitator of His Son. I’m the apple of God’s eye, not some slouch for you to shame. Your attempted inversions have only emboldened me. I’ve got to email my wife some more scripture now. They can collectively bitch about it at her coven(church) on Sunday morning.

  56. @ Sharkly

    All I’m saying is that leading by example s going to be the most important. Jesus did not only use words but showed us by His actions.

    There’s nothing wrong with keeping going back to God’s Word and that’s good, but if it’s causing more resentment than planting seeds in good soil then perhaps more discernment is needed on when to use words vs. actions to model Christ.

    Another analogy may help. Fire and brimstone preaching does convict some to the gospel, but others it turns off. Some of those that are not convicted by fire and brimstone are convicted by a compassionate and kind approach. As Paul said, to the Greeks he will be as a Greek and the Jews as a Jew and so on. Perhaps your dogmatic approach about doing it one way is not the way that can influence your wife positively.

    Of course, you’re free to take or leave the advice. Up to you.

  57. Sharkly says:

    As God is my witness, while I am a man, and am flawed with sin, He knows I have sought to do my best. He has seen me fast, he has seen me put my face in the dust in prayer, he has heard my persistent prayers like in the “parable of the unjust judge”. He has heard the anguish of my heart he has heard me curse the day I was born, he hears me cry out against all the wicked who speak wickedness in His name. My soul is vexed by those who cavalierly slander all husbands for the sins of a few. We don’t need discernment about whether or not to wash our wives with the word of God, when all husbands are clearly told to do it.

    Sirach 4:3 Do not add to the troubles of an angry mind, nor delay your gift to a beggar. 4 Do not reject an afflicted suppliant, nor turn your face away from the poor. 5 Do not avert your eye from the needy, nor give a man occasion to curse you; 6 for if in bitterness of soul he calls down a curse upon you, his Creator will hear his prayer.

    Deep Strength says: “Perhaps your dogmatic approach about doing it one way is not the way that can influence your wife positively.”

    That’s the flaw with churchians, right there. You just can’t stop trying to blame the husband for all rebellion. No matter how vile the wife’s behavior, no matter how longsuffering the husband, you can never ever just say that she should submit. And you’re not the cause of this, or I’ll pray for you, or I’ll rebuke your wife, or I’ll trust that God is wise enough to give your stubborn wife a man persistent enough to be her necessary spiritual leader. You always have to undercut a man’s headship by second guessing that if his leadership was only better his wife would be treating him better. I’ve been at this for over seventeen years. You act like I didn’t try the nice and gentle approach for an entire decade leading up to her running out on me the first time. You need to stop second guessing every husband’s headship, just because a few husbands might be cruel. Your second guessing gives women the ammunition they need to blame their husbands for their own discontentment. My wife is not going to be happy in any marriage, to any person, unless she gets treatment for her intimacy-anorexia. She has a subconscious fear of close intimacy, and she has a behavioral addiction to continuously intentionally sabotaging the relationship to keep things on the rocks and hanging by a thread, to avoid all forms of intimacy.(Emotional, Spiritual, Physical) The last thing I need is a Christian brother giving me the same generic churchian crap I’ve had thrown at me since I started marriage counselling the first year of my marriage. We need a nation of Godfearing men with the balls to stand up for each other in unity against the rebellious onslaught of satanic Feminism. We don’t need to be questioning every other man’s headship when his wife rebels. Yes, advice can be given, and questions can be asked, and everybody should examine themselves to see if they can improve, but don’t blame and shame men for their wife’s wickedness.

    What will it take to get you to acknowledge that it is entirely possible for the book of Hosea to be true. That a man can love like God, and His wife still be a disloyal nasty whore. What will it take to get you to honor other men instead of dishonoring the image of God? Or does the assumption of innocence always go to the woman with you? Because she’s the image of your goddess? Seriously! Take women off the pedestal and recognize that they were the first to transgress. They are supposed to submit in all things. If there is any disunity in a marriage, I’d guess there is a 90% chance it is entirely the wife’s fault for choosing not to submit but to rebel. Your instinctive reaction should be to back your brother, not to blame him to try to justify his wife’s sin. That’s the idolatry, the worship of the feminine. When God is a patriarchy of Father and Son, who set up earthly patriarchy also when God formed the first man in their image and gave man dominion over all the earthly creatures and women also, who are to be in subjection to them.

  58. Pingback: On the Spiritual Significance and Social Value of Game | Σ Frame

  59. @ Sharkly

    That’s the flaw with churchians, right there. You just can’t stop trying to blame the husband for all rebellion. No matter how vile the wife’s behavior, no matter how longsuffering the husband, you can never ever just say that she should submit. And you’re not the cause of this, or I’ll pray for you, or I’ll rebuke your wife, or I’ll trust that God is wise enough to give your stubborn wife a man persistent enough to be her necessary spiritual leader. You always have to undercut a man’s headship by second guessing that if his leadership was only better his wife would be treating him better.

    This post and my comments have done none of the sort.

    You know I’ve always said a wife should submit and obey the Scriptures, and she should do it irregardless of how a husband is acting. That’s the Bible: 1 Peter 3.

    All I’m saying is there are different ways to approach discontentment, disrespect, and rebellion Biblically.

    Look, I understand it’s an insanely tough situation. If you want to keep venting you can do it, just don’t accuse me of things that you know I haven’t said. My prayers are with you brother. If there’s anything you think I can help with over the Internet don’t hesitate to ask.

  60. greyghost says:

    “I may have worded things poorly at points, but the fact of the matter is that pointing at the Scriptures often does nothing because the wife already does not willingly obey the Scriptures (or the husband for that matter). Tell her once and then that’s it. Focusing onto God’s marital roles and responsibilities are the way Christian husbands can influence their spouse toward repentance (and often sex again).”

    You need to reveal your qualifications for writing posts addressing what husbands should do in these matters though. You’re recently married, with probably zero life experience about what you’re talking about regarding husbands who actually have to live through this, and you don’t even have any children yet. How in God’s Name are you prideful enough to believe you have the qualifications to be leading men like Sharkly, who have walked the walk?

    You’ve even written an entire book apparently telling other Christian husbands how to be married correctly, in the worst of trials, and yet you yourself have zero life experience with what you’re teaching. How is this different from younger wives trying to play the Titus 2 role before they’re actually ready?

  61. @ greyghost

    You need to reveal your qualifications for writing posts addressing what husbands should do in these matters though. You’re recently married, with probably zero life experience about what you’re talking about regarding husbands who actually have to live through this, and you don’t even have any children yet. How in God’s Name are you prideful enough to believe you have the qualifications to be leading men like Sharkly, who have walked the walk?

    You’ve even written an entire book apparently telling other Christian husbands how to be married correctly, in the worst of trials, and yet you yourself have zero life experience with what you’re teaching. How is this different from younger wives trying to play the Titus 2 role before they’re actually ready?

    The same could be said of Paul. In fact, Timothy was the bishop of the Ephesian Church but was called to lead them when he was young (1 Tim 4:12). I think it unwise to compare myself to some of the paragons of the faith, but no man or woman needs to have experienced things for themselves to say that focusing on God’s marital roles and responsibilities are something that both husbands and wives should focus on.

    Notice also the qualifications for elders and deacons in the Church:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3&version=NASB

    It does not say that they need “life experience” but that they need the fruit of the Spirit and able to rule well. I do rule my family well, but I guess you’ll have to take my word for that.

    Of course, if you’re not going to listen to me talk about why husbands and wives should fulfill their Biblical marital roles and responsibilities… then why are you here? If you think I’m untrustworthy or unqualified, please go ahead and delete me from your blog reading.

  62. Sharkly says:

    If there’s anything you think I can help with over the Internet don’t hesitate to ask.

    Yes, for now I would ask that you quit blaming men for their wife’s rebellion. Give men the benefit of the doubt. Assume that the wife’s rebellion is her own sin, unless you know otherwise. Assume that if grown men have been in a problem marriage for a while, that they’ve tried most anything and everything to find anything that might help their situation. Don’t assume that they don’t care and haven’t bothered to try everything for their own sakes, their wives’ sakes, and for the sake of any children they have. Unless a man is engaged in evil or mentally ill, the only way for there to be disunity in his home is by the rebellious sin of his wife in not submitting to her husband’s will, as God commands. Wisdom would be to assume the woman is guilty of the first transgression, and the husband is just trying to appease her, Like Adam and Eve. Please work on gaining the wisdom to give the assumption of innocence to the head of the home when there is disunity. Did he ask her to rebel? No, she is creating disunity against his will and clear direction in almost every case. I try not to blame men on my site, but to honor them instead. In this Feminist controlled world, most every man is unjustly bruised and battered, don’t pile on with foolish implications of guilt of your own imagining. If a man does have a confessed fault, trust that it has already been thrown in his face as an illegitimate justification for his wife’s sins a million times already by the man-bashing churchian goddess worshippers, trying to help him back onto the broad road to woman-worship and to hell.

    Romans 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.

  63. Sharkly says:

    Deep Strength,
    I think greyghost’s point may not have been that your inexperience disqualifies you, so much as that your own personal blue-pill perspective is what should be hushed, and that perhaps when you’ve got more life’s experience, and have gained much wisdom from that, you’ll be able to see that you were clearly dishing out some of your own naïveté right along with the good truth of God’s word. If God in His word doesn’t blame husbands for their wives’ lack of submission, then why do you reflexively keep returning to that foolishness like a dog to its vomit? Knock it off already. And when you defend it, you just show that you still believe men are responsible for wifely rebellion, because in this completely Feminist society we must have misused our absolute command that all husbands have over their totally submissive wives. /S I resisted a bit of my wife’s manipulation a few weeks back, and there were three police cars with flashing lights outside my home within the hour, trying to take my sons from me. She’s not hesitant to preserve her behavioral addiction by any means possible, and your husband-blaming arguments are the ammunition she and her churchian backers continually fire back at me.
    Dude! I’m sorry if you’re still so enamored with the feminine mystique that you can’t yet see a woman as a vile sinner, foolishly tearing down her own house with her own hands, and returning evil for good, but the manosphere is likely to overrepresent men who are, or were, married to just such a woman. I truly hope that you have married a Godly woman who keeps you completely naïve of all the typical wickedness and wiles of women. But such was not the path of most of us. And calling us “butt hurt” for wanting you to wise up and help us fight this Feminist deception is just your naïveté showing itself again, as you slander those more experienced than yourself, based upon blue-pill preconceptions that have yet to be dispelled within you. I truly like what you are doing with your website, and I think you are mostly right. I and the others are just trying to help you get even more right, because we care, and want the truth to be taught, as error-free as possible.

  64. @ sharkly

    Yes, for now I would ask that you quit blaming men for their wife’s rebellion.

    Sorry man, you’ve got the wrong guy and/or you’ve been reading into my posts too much.

    I have not done this once EVER on this blog. If you think I have, please quote me where I say that a wife’s rebellion is the husband’s fault. A husband’s or wife’s sin is their own fault. Everyone has free will whether to sin or not.

    What we are responsible for is our own marital roles and responsibilities which can influence a wayward husband or wife.

  65. Sharkly says:

    You asked me to quote you. It might be subtle, but I read some blame in the following, statements to the effect that if you were doing it right this wouldn’t be happening to you, Job & Hosea.

    You also fear her denial, leading you to make irrational choices that only contribute to hurt when she does this to you. This only leads back into the dysfunctional cycle of sex denial and more butt hurt.

    When God’s mission becomes the goal in all areas of your life, it imparts the behaviors that break dysfunctional cycles.

    What I am saying though is that making your wife your ONEitis even in marriage (especially for sex) is going to lead toward a transactional mindset of “tit for tat” dysfunction that occurs when any sort of denial of sex happens.

    A husband that is constantly butthurt about not getting sex (though it is his right) will influence the wife toward more sin rather than repentance.

  66. @ Sharkly

    No, I’m talking about how influencing a wife toward godliness works.

    I’m not blaming any man for the sin of a wife or another. That would be dumb of me not to mention wrong.

  67. Sharkly says:

    FWIW I like this video sample about sexless marriages. The Doctor does not blame the defrauded partner.

    Although the video does not mention it, his treatment for Intimacy Anorexia sure resembles repentance. The person must acknowledge their issue, turn from it, and establish opposite new God honoring patterns of correct behavior. No doubt he makes a lot of money off of his treatment, and I just wish my wife would be willing to go with me for his marriage treatment. Too bad churches don’t offer to turn women to repentance anymore. I’d be willing to fork over my last penny to somebody who could get my wife to repent. But right now her church is making more of my money off of her as a divorcee. If she ever repents, she won’t be allowed back to those interloping scoundrels anymore, and they know it.

  68. Swanny River says:

    DS,
    I too, was initially jarred by the original post because it seemed blue pill. But unlike others (cough, Sharkly, cough), I think it might be due partially to the difficulty of communicating via blogs.
    But like Sharkly, I have heard too many church leaders say to just work on yourself, that’s what is Godly.
    I take it as you giving tactical advice, that is, stop doing what isn’t working. So if calling your wife’s sin to her attention isn’t working, try using some honey instead of vinegar (because God’s Word is like vinegar to a rebellious wife).
    Sharkly may be hearing your position as strategy instead of tactics. That is, Sharkly is maybe thinking (I trust he’ll correct me if my understanding is wrong) that you are saying that blaming the wife is not an option in this battle. I hear you Sharkly – that IS the position of most Christians as you are painfully being made aware (and battling back against). I’ve had painful discussions with other close believers who can’t come to utter a negative judgment against a women, and justify their cowardice by saying that the bible says to just focus on your own walk.
    That’s not what DS is saying though, right?
    But I am left wondering what tools does the Lord want a husband to use. I heard a Dennis Burk sermon and he said Ephesians 5 admonishes the woman to voluntarily submit herself to her husband. He says Paul could’ve commanded husbands to demand the wife’s subjection, but didn’t. But Burk didn’t leave a husband like Sharkly with any tools and he also never pointed out that women are sinners like he was careful to do with men.
    He said emotional or verbal coercion of a wife to get her to submit is abusive.

  69. @ Swanny River

    Seems like an accurate synopsis of my position.

    I heard a Dennis Burk sermon and he said Ephesians 5 admonishes the woman to voluntarily submit herself to her husband. He says Paul could’ve commanded husbands to demand the wife’s subjection, but didn’t. But Burk didn’t leave a husband like Sharkly with any tools and he also never pointed out that women are sinners like he was careful to do with men.

    That’s the part where they’re wrong.

    Submission is voluntary, but the Bible also commands husbands to love their wives toward sanctification which means they should be calling their wives to submission as the Scriptures say.

    As I’ve said here that isn’t the only thing you should be doing, especially if the wife is not listening to the Scripture’s admonishments. Honey instead of vinegar is a good analogy.

  70. Paul says:

    Very interesting topic, but I’m clearly missing something from this discussion: how to deal with sin. Let’s see what Jesus said about it (Mt 18):

    “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”

    My Christian wife, whom I love and who has many good qualities, sins against me by principally refusing me my God-given authority over her body (although we do have sex if she feels like it) and refusing to completely submit to me (although she still takes care of me). She refuses to listen to me when I try to discuss the topic from God’s Word, she simply starts screaming, telling me she will never submit nor give me authority over her body, even flat out refuses to study the topic from God’s Word with me. If we read these passages from the bible on other occasions, she just says that Christians think differently about these passages. I try to manage as best as I can to still uphold the marriage. For me divorce is not an option, I think God’s Word is clear on that. After years threatening me with divorce, she recently acknowledged she would not divorce me. That gives at least a basis to continue building the relationship.

    I have called out her sin multiple times, because indeed we firstmost should follow God’s will faithfully, with no effect on her other than the same rage.

    But as for handling sin like Jesus instructed; I do not have a single Christian brother or sister who acknowledges what she does is sin. And she knows it, and even mocks me about it. The elders in the church similarly would sooner label me an abuser, than call it sin on her part. She knows it, and has even challenged me to bring in the elders in our “marital problems”, which she knows I can’t do without destroying myself. Even if I could find a church that would acknowledge it to be sin, she sure would not join me to such a church.

    Tell me, how often have you heard of rebellious wives being shunned by the whole church because she refuses to submit to her husband or refuses him sex? Tell me, how often have you even heard leaders of the church publicly acknowledging such behavior as sin?

    Although God allows me to suffer in this situation, at times He has graciously changed the hearth of my wife for the better on multiple occasions, for which I’m grateful, and I still hope and pray for the situation to further improve. But as I see it, I’m on my own in this, following God, even if my marriage does not improve.

    And tell me, how many Christian wives are not doing exactly the same things? Or worse by divorcing their husbands or other heinous acts?

    And let’s not forget; how many of you know mature Christian women teaching younger women to submit to their husbands?

    Is therefore not the first we Christian men should do is to try to change the church in this?

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