Unshameable

One of the things most Christians seem to have trouble separating, not just in wider Christian culture but also in various manosphere circles, is that vetting and preferences for marriage are different than how you should treat someone as a fellow Christian.

Marriage is a covenant and supposed to be permanent in God’s eyes. You should be selective on someone who you are making a lifelong covenant with. You want a true Christian (not in name only; who walks the walk), hopefully whose mission is aligned with yours, who is grounded with good character and morals, wants to follow God’s biblical roles and responsibilities, and ideally the least baggage as possible. More on past posts on vetting.

This does not mean those who don’t meet your criteria (whatever they are) are not good Christians or evil in some way. Everyone has sins in their past that they can repent to God and be forgiven. As Christians, we do not need to shame them or make them feel unwelcome once they are in God’s family. We should celebrate and be joyful.

But that does not necessarily mean you need to eliminate different past sins as criteria for who you want to be married. I don’t have anything against non-virgins or single mothers who have repented and are in Christ. In fact, I rejoice with them, but I also wouldn’t marry one. Same with alcoholics, other various addictions, and even murderers (heck, Saul/Paul was one before he was converted).

If you want to marry a single mother that’s great too. I know some men who have and they have godly marriages. However, it is true that it is riskier. It is one that I personally refused having reviewed all of the relevant data. Each man should pray, get wise counsel, and evaluate the risk for himself. If he is satisfied that she is truly repentant and has godly character then who am I to judge? I’ll encourage him and try to help him in his marriage.

Whatever preferences or criteria you have for marriage are fine. One can say some may be unrealistic (as in the case of evangelical american princesses). One could say some are unwise or unfeasible. One should evaluate whether different preferences and criteria are worth having or if they weed out too many otherwise good candidates. However, I don’t think anyone should have any shame for their criteria or preferences for marriage. If you’re a Christian it’s a lifelong thing and you want to make a good choice if you’re not going to stay celibate for life.

Each to his own with no shame, but it is good to be in the Scriptures, praying, and wise about your own preferences and about who you potentially choose to marry including their past.

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21 Responses to Unshameable

  1. donalgraeme says:

    Well said, DS.

    My usual response to those who have issues with my criteria is to point out that Scripture, time and time again, constantly reaffirms the danger of poor choice in women. Each must make his own choice, but considering how much power a man gives a woman when he marries her, it is a choice which must be made very carefully.

  2. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I think that there is a natural balance between the harshness of the vetting process and that of family court. They forced men to play defense.

  3. Bruce says:

    It only works one way with them. Women are never told they should be open to marrying repentant ex-women-beaters, repentant ex-child-molesters, repentant ex-spent their twenties in their mom’s basement playing video games and masturbating to anime porn, etc.

    All those things represent risk for women. Same for men and female chastity.

  4. @ Bruce

    Yup, flipping the analogy on its head is always very revealing.

  5. Lexet Blog says:

    It’s a two fold problem within Christendom. 1- embracing feminism. 2- adoption the mindset that no ones life is worth scrutinizing for any purpose, and that burdens should be accepted at all costs since that makes you Christ like. (Ie, a theology of works)

  6. senecagriggss says:

    I’ve known women who divorce was forced upon – though they fought against it. I’ve known women who divorced because of “incompatibility.” or “we just grew apart.”

    I don’t think one is the same as the other.

    Personally I think women who had divorce forced upon them might be considered as still marriageable. BUT, if you’re one of those women who divorced due to incompatibility or “we just grew apart,” they would never get my consideration. I don’t think they’d stand when the marriage got tough.

  7. @ sebecagriggss

    Personally I think women who had divorce forced upon them might be considered as still marriageable. BUT, if you’re one of those women who divorced due to incompatibility or “we just grew apart,” they would never get my consideration. I don’t think they’d stand when the marriage got tough.

    Taking away the arguments about the exception clause, the Scripture seems sufficiently clear.

    Matthew 5:31 “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    Biblically, I can’t recommend marrying a woman who was divorced rightfully or not.

  8. Joe2 says:

    Let’s take a look at hypothetical Jane and her boyfriend. Jane can take two courses of action, as follows.

    Scenario 1 – Jane moves in with her boyfriend, finds herself pregnant and after a couple of years of living together her boyfriend doesn’t want to get married and bails. Jane finds herself a single mother attempting to collect child support. Jane realizes what she did was wrong and repents.

    Scenario 2 – Jane takes the right course of action and marries her boyfriend. Jane finds herself pregnant and after a couple of years of marriage her husband frivorces her. Jane finds herself a single mother attempting to collect child support. Jane does not need to repent because she did no wrong.

    It seems that the church rewards the sinful behavior of Scenario 1 (Jane can get remarried) and punishes the correct behavior Scenario 2 (Jane can’t get remarried and is called an adultress if she does).

  9. @ Joe2

    It seems that the church rewards the sinful behavior of Scenario 1 (Jane can get remarried) and punishes the correct behavior Scenario 2 (Jane can’t get remarried and is called an adultress if she does).

    This is precisely why I think the idea of sacramental marriage (presided over by the Church/Christians) is important. If you don’t like the word sacramental than just traditional covenant marriage in the Bible. Both the Catholic and Orthodox have the right concept. I discussed this extensively at the end of my divorce series.

    In scenario 2 if Jane did not come to Christ until after her being frivorced she could still get married again because she had a natural marriage.

    This fits most in line with covenant marriage because covenants need full agreement of the terms from both parties to be valid, much like contract law is based on. For instance, they need to understand the terms (it’s permanent, not to deny each other sex, they are to model Christ and the Church, etc.) and agree to them in front of God and witnesses.

    Non-Christians and those who have married and come to Christ but may not know what covenant marriage is and means only have natural marriages until they reaffirm them under the Church/Christians which they should do immediately.

    This also avoids the scenario you mentioned in 1 vs 2 where 2 seems very unfair because Jane was married and now she would not be able to be remarried.

  10. Paul says:

    What often gets ignored, is that having sex will form a one-flesh relationship between a man and a woman, which ends at the death of either one. That’s why having sex should only happen within a life-long covenant, called marriage (which is different from what most people and/or states “define” as marriage, although they don’t have the authority to define it).

    The problem is not in the first place in the marriage, the problem is in forming more than one one-flesh relationships.

    That’s why sexual sins are the gravest, both in the old and new testaments. You carry it with you in your body. And forgiveness of such sins after repentance, does not necessarily imply that any one-flesh relationships cease to exist. That’s the question that needs to be answered.

  11. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    I understand that I may be derailing your thread, but the post is two weeks old and quiet. I saw this on Youtube and just got disgusted. If this is the culture speaking through these women, it’s sick. If it is base female nature, how did we come to have over seven billion people on the planet? In either event, this can’t be part of God’s plan. Please watch the video and pour yourself a tall something that will settle your stomach. Ginger Ale works for me.

  12. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Fuzzie

    Searched them up on YoutTube. The girls are Cat and Nat. They are in Canada. Thought maybe they were a parody account at first, but now I don’t think that’s the case. Those two are an example of modern women who should be avoided. In the context of this blog, avoidance should not be difficult, because it’s not likely they’d be found anywhere near a serious church. They have a media presence. Oh, do they ever. They also have a book, available everywhere and a web site.

    https://catandnat.ca/about

  13. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    They’re awful. The problem for men is that they would have all sorts of enthusiasm for sex until the children arrived. How is a guy to know?

  14. Joe2 says:

    Please watch the video and pour yourself a tall something that will settle your stomach. Ginger Ale works for me.

    I watched the video and actually did have a diet ginger ale! I may be wrong, but it appears that these women are still married (have rings), yet when they discuss romance (sex) after childbirth I don’t recall them mentioning their husbands. It seems to complete the picture they would need a video with their husbands to get their reaction – we don’t know what actually goes on behind closed doors.

    I conclude that they are playing to their audience and most likely are very successful and making some serious $$$.

  15. @ fuzzie

    I understand that I may be derailing your thread, but the post is two weeks old and quiet. I saw this on Youtube and just got disgusted. If this is the culture speaking through these women, it’s sick. If it is base female nature, how did we come to have over seven billion people on the planet?

    Not too hard avoid women like that if you have your eyes wide open. The problem is most men don’t.

    These are going to be the type of women that want to get married for the status and because they want to pop out a kid. They don’t actually respect the man they are with, and that is obvious to any man who has his eyes open.

  16. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    I hope that any man who found his way in these women’s clutches could see them for what they are. The problem is that most men are tired of looking and have had to reject so many already.

    My poor neighbor is in his eighties and has gone senile. His wife yells at him all the time. Maybe being senile is a blessing for him?

    As for sex and these women’s attitude toward it, are they even female?
    I hope that God has something planned for these women. It looks as if they are doing their best to make a liar out of Him.

    Joe2,
    If they are playing to an audience, it is horrifying to contemplate how large it is.

  17. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I have been watching the Youtube channel of a couple that do romance tours. He’s American and found her overseas. On the matter of sex, she once said, “What is it with American women? Do they not want to have sex with their husbands?” If a man has to go halfway around the world to find a woman motivated to be in a relationship, it is beginning to look like a reasonable expense.

  18. JPF says:

    FuzzieWuzzieBear: I suggest you stay away from the massively over-priced romance tours, and just go direct to an agency and pay them to meet a dozen women on your own. Will cost far less.
    Biggest problem is that some agencies seem to attract only professional daters, rather than serious candidates for marriage. One romance company partly avoids this, but is massively over-priced. I suspect you are better off to invest the money in more time off, and personally talk with various women.

  19. Joe2 says:

    If a man has to go halfway around the world to find a woman motivated to be in a relationship, it is beginning to look like a reasonable expense.

    These “romance tours” or agencies that set up meetings are most likely scams (probably 99%) skillfully designed to separate you from your money. But even if they are not scams it begs the question, why can’t the woman establish a relationship with a man where she lives? Why does she need to look halfway around the world?

  20. JPF says:

    Why does she need to look halfway around the world?

    Some claim that excessive drinking and lack of career-motivation on the part of men (partly) explains the apparent inability of women to find acceptable men.
    I do not doubt the above plays a part. But I also suspect that typical female-incompetence with long-term decision-making and planning are a large part.
    She may be a woman of much higher character than what you find in your home town… but she will still be a woman.

  21. Great post. Criteria are important when choosing a mate. Most masculine men won’t raise the children of other men, which is one reason why it’s so hard for single mothers to marry.

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