Generating and handling attraction from the opposite sex

Generally speaking, 9 times out of 10 if a single man or woman is hanging around another single of the opposite sex they’re definitely attracted and interested in a relationship. Some are more obvious than others (“get a room” comments ensue), but this is generally true even if they are afraid to say it or acknowledge it. It doesn’t matter if they’re pre-teens, teens, 20s. 30s, and older. It’s all the same.

Lest we get caught up in the apex fallacy, one has to be attractive in either looks and/or personality to generate such interest in the first place. For men it’s almost always only looks though feminine personality sometimes plays a role. For women, it’s a combination of looks and personality.

To summarize:

  • Men’s attraction is primarily based in a woman’s looks (symmetrical face, long hair, low blemishes, clean and youthful looking skin, hourglass figure, etc.) and feminine dress (dresses, skirts, etc.). Personality is primarily a disqualifier (masculine, in your face, brash, ball-busting, etc.) though in rare cases can be an attracter (very feminine personalities like very encouraging, pure hearted, and such men will start to gravitate to, especially if they don’t have any in their life).
  • Women’s attraction is based in a man’s looks (tall, muscular, strong jaw line, etc. facial hair can be polarizing in a good way) and his personality. Personality can be an attracter (confidence, charisma, humor, etc.) or a disqualifer (weak, feminine, no backbone, unmasculine, wishy-washy, etc.).

I was watching a show with my wife the other day, and there were 2 men on the screen. One was very confident in his personality and posture and the other was sitting like he was nervous and when he spoke he also came off as nervous as well. My wife noticed the confident one as attractive, but when they came up again did a double take because the nervous one was actually more physically handsome to her.

Unlike men, this is one of the things where for women personality can make a man more attractive to her.

To dig a little deeper, I think we need to get into the minutiae from a couple comments on Sigma’s post. First, mine:

“women always have sex on the brain” – this is a variation of the apex fallacy.

Men always have sex on the brain.. for women that are attractive to them.

Women always have sex on the brain… for men that are attractive to them.

The vast majority of men don’t have sex on the brain with obese women. Same for women with the unattractive man: they’ll call him a creep and avoid him.

If a woman is hanging around a man and giving him any type of one-on-one or intimate attention she’s definitely interested. But that also assumes a man can get such attention in the first place.

Second, Scott’s:

Yep. If you have never heard something like this:

“The first time I met you I couldn’t stop thinking about what those hands were going to feel like all over me” then I am really, truly sorry.

This is the crux of the direction I am trying to take my stuff, for what its worth. I have like 159 twitter followers. About 50 some odd you tube watchers. I’m a nobody.

I WILL NOT sell Charles Atlas style “how to pick up chicks” crap. I just can’t bring myself to do it.

My interest is in men who have given up their natural masculine traits and been smothered by a lifetime of blue pill conditioning. Rollo’s advice is right about SO MANY important things. Including “you cannot negotiate desire.” And then goes on to try to teach men to attract women using a monkey dance. Which in my opinion, is a form of negotiating desire.

I think this is key. This is where things went wrong. All the stuff about the MMP is correct in that is artificially skewed buy factors in the environment. (Dating apps, messaging from the culture, etc). Wrenching back to rationality is going to take as long as it took to get here, with a ton of collateral damage.

I both agree and disagree to some extent.

There are some things that just naturally generate more attraction that comes with being excellent.

I’ve noticed in myself once I started to ingrain the Biblical marriage roles and responsibilities into my head even before I was married, I obviously came off as a more strong, masculine personality because I was doing what God commanded and not backing off on it unlike many of the Church husband who says with a nervous chuckle “gotta ask the boss” while his wife is starting or already a harpy.

Once I started taking working out and becoming much more muscular seriously, I started generating a lot more interest from women just because. Once I started taking my dress and style more seriously I generated more interest from women as well. No man who has worked out and gained 20-30 lbs of muscle and/or lost a similar amount of fat has not seen a difference in interest from women. This is just something that obvious.

Likewise, I think the goal has to be removing the femininzed and chivalric lens from our world view. Learning pick up lines and how to jump through hoops is obviously going to fail in the long run. A woman will start to pick up that your personality is not congruent with how you normally act.

However, a man that has removed the feminized and chivalric world view will not bend toward trying to be a people pleaser or try to jump through hoops to try to garner a woman’s interest. Ironically, this ability to not care (e.g. be outcome independent) is what helps to drive at least some natural attraction.

In other words, be the best man you can be to serve God and see how much interest you get from women. This is a fluid process as one can almost always gain more muscles or be a stronger leader. For the majority of men they will be able to at least generate some interest, though how much at first sight is debatable.


Putting it together

Ideally, the hierarchy for men on going out with women would be something along the lines of:

  1. See who is attracted to you
  2. Apply godly selection criteria (e.g. true Christian, humble, teachable, etc.)
  3. See who is the most attracted to you both physically and personality-wise after those criteria
  4. If there are only women that are somewhat interested and not potentially all-in for marriage, then you have a hard choice to decide whether you want to stay single or go with it.

The interest you generate from women can change over time you change. As was said before, you can become a stronger, more confident, masculine (and godly man) and gain more muscle.

The caveat to that which I agree with Scott to the extent that the man you are when you meet a woman is likely the interest that she will perceive in you almost perpetually. In other words, having good pick up lines or jumping through hoops won’t work. She’s either attracted or not, and it’s very difficult to change a first impression unless you drastically change over the course of knowing her (e.g. gain 20 lbs more muscle and she notices it).

Thus, if a woman is not interested or only marginally interested it’s not worth your time to talk to her much at all. Keep focusing on being a better man so when the next woman comes around you are potentially more attractive and can generate a stronger initial interest.

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15 Responses to Generating and handling attraction from the opposite sex

  1. Scott says:

    Ironically, this ability to not care (e.g. be outcome independent) is what helps to drive at least some natural attraction.

    As painful as the roller coaster of serial monogamy has been for me, I feel it has provided me with some insights that can actually help in the MMP/SMP and comes from this truth.

    The cycle ALWAYS follows (followed) this formula:

    Relationship starts

    Relationship runs a predictable course (this is a loop within a loop. Highly charged, novel, getting to know each other, great sex–>comfortable–>first “fight”–>sex starts to decrease–>tension over the downward spiral–>blah blah–>more weirdness–>…aaaand

    Breakup

    If SHE does the breaking up–>Depressed, “oneitis” “I’ll never meet another one like her, negative feedback loops. Friends keep setting you up with new girls, you sabotage every one until you finally get over it and reach the following step, which you will already have reached if YOU DO THE BREAKING UP.

    “Over it.” Don’t give a crap, totally self sufficient. Not really interested one way or another.

    Right at about that stage is when another on catches your attention, and not a moment sooner.

    Meet cute, relationship starts. Ready, go.

    (In between each LTR, there are FWBs, ONSs, etc. while you shoot around in the dark trying to make sense of how stupid everything is.)

  2. Scott says:

    My point is, being aloof seems to be more than just driving some degree of attraction. In my case anyway, it is a stage or condition that MUST be met in order to proceed to the next meet cute.

  3. For men, the game-theoretic response to this seems to work out to “Never get in a relationship, and if you do, break up at the drop of a hat.”

    Which sounds about right. IDK what a “relationship” is, anyway.

  4. Scott says:

    For men, the game-theoretic response to this seems to work out to “Never get in a relationship, and if you do, break up at the drop of a hat.”

    Yes! I actually talked about this at the end of the last Rich Cooper video I was a guest on. It was kind of a throwaway tangent, but maybe worth further discussion. It depends on your goals.

  5. Scott says:

    Seriouslypleasedropit

    For a man, if your goal is to have that super exciting feeling of being “in love” with all the novel experiences that go with it, the “average” relationship will last anywhere from 3 months to 2 years on the long end. So, the advice for how to do that with the least amount of pain possible would be, “as soon as you feel the spark start to rub off, (like the first time she says ‘no’ for example) break it off. It has now started its descent into more work than it will be worth.”

    Basically, this is codifying serial monogamy into a system designed to maximize fun and minimize pain. Enjoy it while it is good, then walk away. The next crush is only a few weeks away!

    There are obvious moral problems with this, but it is rational if you don’t care about any of that.

    For one, you would probably not get very far if you advertised this from the start. I am sure there are some women out there who are willing to go along with a plan like this, but my guess is not many. And not many that would admit it. You would have to deceive the girl into thinking you were in it “forever” with your fingers crossed behind your back.

    Also, if you have a conscience, eventually the constant cycle of break up, bond with a new one, break up will take its toll on you, until your conscience is seared completely. It is common in the manosphere to speak about how the bonding process is impaired over multiple partners more pronounced with women, and I am sure this is true, but men are not immune to this process.

    Of course, since this is a Christian blog, we believe that Gods plan is one shot, one kill lifelong monogamy. This sort of arrangement is incompatible with the life of faith, even though almost no one within the mainstream bod(ies) of faith traditions would even bat an eye at it, especially if you keep it kind of a secret.

  6. Scott says:

    …continued.

    Because you can always just argue that “it just wasn’t meant to be” and all of that. Everyone understands romantic love this way–everyone.

    All you are doing is playing the “game of love” according to the current rules, where you never know when you are going to meet “the one,” heck–even if you are married to someone else already!

  7. Scott says:

    –Sorry to hog up your thread, DS

    I would also point out that most men, including me, who have followed the meet cute, leading to LTR/Boyfriend Girlfriend pathway were operating in good faith.

    That is, they believed that each one– no matter how many it ended up being–was a serious path to lifelong monogamy, even if they did not analyze the irrational and immoral it ultimately is. They thought, “well, I am back in the dating scene again. Lets see if I can find love.” Here’s the lyrics to it, by Keith Urban.

    There’s a new wind blowing like I’ve never known
    I’m breathing deeper than I’ve even done
    And it sure feels good to finally feel the way I do
    And I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    And I let go of all my lonely yesterdays
    I’ve forgiven myself for the mistakes I’ve made
    Now there’s just one thing the only thing I want to do
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    Yeah I want to feel the sunshine
    Shining down on me and you
    When you put your arms around me
    You let me know there’s nothing in this world I can’t do
    I used to run in circles going nowhere fast
    I’d take one step forward and took two steps back
    I couldn’t walk a straight line even if I wanted to
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    Oh here we go now, ooo, yeah,
    Hey I want to love ya baby,
    Oh oh, oh oh
    Yea I want to feel the sunshine
    Shining down on me and you
    When you put your arms around me
    Well baby there ain’t nothing in this world I can’t do
    Sometime it’s hard for me to understand
    But your teaching me to be a better man
    I don’t want to take this life for granted like I used to do, no no
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    I’m ready to love somebody, love somebody like you
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    Hey I want to love ya baby, ah uh
    I want to be the man in the middle of the night shining like it’s true
    I wanna to be the man that you run to whenever I call on you
    When everything that loved someone finally found it’s way
    I wanna be a better man I can see it in you yeah

    Women need to understand, that if we are going to follow the female preferred mating strategy, men will take it seriously and actually try to make it work. Someone has to be the male side of the equation.

  8. Novaseeker says:

    Yep. If you have never heard something like this:

    “The first time I met you I couldn’t stop thinking about what those hands were going to feel like all over me” then I am really, truly sorry.

    The thing is, though, that there are a LOT of men who will never hear anything like that from any woman that they find even passably attractive in today’s marketplace. It’s not a small number of men today.

    When I was in my 20s, way back in the 80s and 90s, it was a small group of men who were in that boat — most of us had at least one experience, at least, like the one I mentioned at Jack’s — and most of them probably failed to pick up on it until afterwards, as Jack’s post discusses, but they still had the experience of a woman being into them enough to be kind of forward, to chase them at least a bit. But today? It’s flipped. Only the outlier men are experiencing that, and most men are not experiencing that kind of desire from any woman whom they find attractive at all, period.

    I think if we tell men to wait for a woman who kind of chases them, that only works in the current market if the guy is perceived by women as being above average in terms of attractiveness — and the more above average the better. Yes, women also have their types. and if you have figured out where the women who are into your type congregate, then you are one step ahead of the game, but you still need to be above average in attractiveness in order to generate the desire to chase the man. There is simply far too much attention all women are getting today through various means from average attraction men for women to be incented to chase them at all today. The context has completely changed, and therefore the tactics for men have to change. The focus has to be on men getting themselves into the above average category in whatever niche they are, and then waiting for women who express strong interest in them. If they skip the first part, they will literally never have an attractive woman express an interest in them likely ever in their lives, period — it really is that extreme today.

  9. Derek Ramsey says:

    “The interest you generate from women can change over time you change.”

    It is not a requirement that you change. Merely spending more time with her may be enough to change her mind (e.g. the workplace romance). If her judgment of your ‘personality’ improves, this can change her attraction to you.

  10. An ugly man who acts aloof is ignored. An ugly man who acts confident is annoying and creepy.

    A good-looking man who acts aloof is mysterious. A good-looking man who acts confident is just being himself.

    These are the rules for the 21st century.

  11. Random Angeleno says:

    Novaseeker makes a critical point here. There was a well known commenter at the Rational Male blog some years ago whose thesis was that the introduction of Tinder completely threw dating dynamics out of whack after they had already evolved considerably in negative ways with the Internet, causing even more secular women to revel in unearned male attention and to restrict their pursuits to outlier men. Sadly enough that culture spread to many Christian women, inflaming their entitlement to those upper level men.

    When I was young, I got a few IOI’s. But I was not that attractive plus I was severely shy and introverted, and no one ever showed me how to recognize them, let alone act on them. So of course IOI’s were few and very far between. Hence I never got anywhere and it’s only when looking back with today’s understanding that I can recognize them for what they were. I did eventually marry at 41. But I didn’t have the experience to recognize the red flags so the marriage blew up after a few years.

    To expand on Novaseeker’s point, if I were to plant the exact younger version of me into today’s times, I don’t think I would get any IOI’s at all. Heck, as an older man with over a decade under my belt since the divorce, I can see the same dynamic in my age group of women. They’re going for the outlier men just as much as their younger sisters do. My IOI’s today mostly come from the fat, the older and the manipulative. I just have to laugh and stay with my faith, otherwise I’d cry into my pitcher of beer. It is what it is and I’m not the least bit jealous of Scott, Jack or DS. I’m just glad they’re serving as Christian beacons of hope for the younger generation of men.

  12. @ Nova

    I think if we tell men to wait for a woman who kind of chases them, that only works in the current market if the guy is perceived by women as being above average in terms of attractiveness — and the more above average the better. Yes, women also have their types. and if you have figured out where the women who are into your type congregate, then you are one step ahead of the game, but you still need to be above average in attractiveness in order to generate the desire to chase the man. There is simply far too much attention all women are getting today through various means from average attraction men for women to be incented to chase them at all today. The context has completely changed, and therefore the tactics for men have to change. The focus has to be on men getting themselves into the above average category in whatever niche they are, and then waiting for women who express strong interest in them. If they skip the first part, they will literally never have an attractive woman express an interest in them likely ever in their lives, period — it really is that extreme today.

    Sort of agree.

    In my opinion given the state of the Church it’s generally easy to become part of the top 20%, if we are considering the top 20% the ones the woman look at as above average attractiveness.

    So many single Christian men are overweight or obese and nice guys if you just put in the effort over 6-12 months to gain 10-20 lbs of muscle and lose fat to the 10-15% body fat range you’re pretty much placing yourself into top 20% territory already.

    Get your mission for Christ down pat and focus on your role in God’s kingdom. Also, read yourself No More Mr Nice guy and stop supplicating to women when you talk to them and you’re already probably pushing top 10%.

    I saw this play out for myself through a few different groups as I got more muscular and more devoted to God. The men and women would be playing the old back and forth, but slowly over months to years I started generating more attraction, and especially more with newer women who hadn’t seen me when I was less attractive. I might’ve gone from somewhere to like a 3-4 to a 6 over the course of that time I suppose.

    I personally don’t think every man can get to that 8-10 range where a lot of women are attracted just because, but 6-7 is usually good enough to get a bunch of women interested that are non-obese and devoted to God.

    Unless a man is objectively facially very ugly or very short then there’s bound to be at least a few women who are interested, unless of course your Church is very small and there are limited quantities of single men and women then it might be hard.

  13. Agreed. It’s easier to be more masculine and attractive when other men in the church are effeminate and emotional.

  14. Pingback: How to Develop an Attitude of Detachment | Σ Frame

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