A lament for men

A poignant post from Instagram that resonates with a lot of young men.

A lament. NYC is probably the worst city to live in for mid-20s/30s evangelical Christian guys. Now I understand why more and King’s College guys are leaving the city a few years after graduating, esp. the Alpha types. After 14 weeks of reading approx 1800 pages, writing about 70 pages of critical thinking, and 42 hours of discussion about what contributes to men really thriving—studying circa 1800 to the present—the guys in my masculinity course last semester saw just how utterly deficient NYC churches are at building up the fellas. If you don’t read the history or know the data you probably can’t see it. But we’re in trouble. Ladies will ask, “where are all the good men?” Answer: wherever churches are providing unique opportunities for men to be sharpened by other men—for men, by men. And NCS doesn’t even come close to what we read in the books this semester. A proper group needs at least 3-6 hours per week. I actually felt bad for my students in my masculinity course at the end because there isn’t a church in New York that I could recommend for them to keep growing and learning about how to be better men and love well from other men.

I’ve been researching this topic for about 17 years and it all came together last semester. The best class on this I’ve ever taught. I was depressed when the semester ended. Haha. All of the women marrying guys in this class are going to have great lives. They have no idea! The data shows that a woman’s quality of life is significantly improved if the man in her life are been spending time with other men learning how to love well from other guys, esp. older guys. The best men’s groups in Manhattan and Brooklyn are all non-religious ones. Last Friday, I spent about 5 hours on the phone trying to figure out what to do about this with a theologian and a pastor. One Manhattan pastor, highlighting how pathetic it is for guys in NYC, ended with a deep sigh, “What are we going to do?” It’s taken me 17 years to get my head around some solutions so maybe one church may have some stuff soon, in the meantime most guys will flatline, increasingly become friendless, and cement themselves in domesticated passivity. Settling is just easier.

This is no surprise to us, but it seems that at least some Christian men are coming around to these ideas apart from these parts. It is still quite sad though as many men are still floundering.

There’s a good reason why Jesus took a core group of 70, 12, and 3, and 1 disciples for Himself, and building the fellowship, friendship, and camaraderie between men really does produce fruitfully via iron sharpens iron.

Single or married you should always strive to get some good and mature Christian men in your life and do life together.

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21 Responses to A lament for men

  1. Sharkly says:

    “masculinity course” LOL

    You’re supposed to learn that stuff in earliest childhood by having a manly father. But, ripping the father out of the home is the goal of Feminist family courts. And most of masculinity has been outlawed or made societally unacceptable. Modern couples only have one or two kids, and can’t afford to lose any. growing up I was free to do dangerous stuff and wander off all day, because my parents had plenty of kids, and consequently I knew I was expendable. Today’s helicopter parents aren’t teaching children masculine behavior, but constant fear. Schools call the police on kids who make an imaginary gun with their hand. Those woke pussies have no business teaching anybody masculinity. Their concept of masculinity is derived from watching fictional Hollywood action movies. I had a father! A real man of steel.

  2. whiteguy1 says:

    A really great fiction book describes, in detail, what we are dealing with as men and in the West and how offers at least one path to a solution, via the church.

    The Heretics of St. Possenti by Rolf Nelson.

  3. Don Quixote says:

    Great post DS. I think it is great that at least there is a ‘masculinity course’. Most/many churches don’t have any clue about how feminism has destroyed the family and is now destroying the churches.

  4. JPF says:

    Further to Sharkly’s comment, even where fathers are present, the view of Christ presented is incomplete. We should encourage ourselves and other men to memorize a few verses where:
    1) Jesus uses violence to cleanse the temple
    2) Jesus calls authority figures all sorts of “mean names”, especially “hypocrites” (Matthew 23)
    3) Jesus refuses to allow another man to exert any authority over Jesus’s decision (calling Peter “Satan”, and refusing to let the crowd anoint Jesus as king).

    Having these words “hidden in your heart” will help the young men to understand that it is good to be a firm man that will do and say what he has decided to do. The “hurt feelings” and disagreements of others should be irrelevant to each man doing what he thinks is best, as that man strives to obey God rather than men.

    When was the last time you heard a pastor advocate that the men take up weapons, such as whips or swords, to do the will of God? Men, who among you is willing to do this?
    When was the last time you heard a pastor encourage you to call him out, even calling him a hypocrite or a servant of Satan (2 Timothy 2:22-26), when you catch him teaching man-made rules instead of the commands of God?

    Where can I find such a man?

  5. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    As for New York, it has been a mess for the sexual marketplace as long as I have been living. That is the problem with unchecked hypergamy. Women will never be satisfied. I wish that I had better news. The only way that I see it getting better is when women have made such a mess of things that they can’t deny it any more.
    The men are doing the right thing. If the community will not accept you, leave.

  6. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    We may be getting to that point sooner than we think. I just watched a Better Bachelor video that discussed why Tinder works for men. I got into this corner of the internet because I could not understand why internet dating was so hard on men. As BB put it, the men who weren’t having success dropped out, all eighty to ninety percent of them, leaving it to the ten to twenty who were having success. Now, the women are baffled and wondering. That is the tldr version, so I won’t link.

  7. lastmod says:

    I saw that……….BB of course classifies himself in that 10%-20%…..that aside, the men who dropped out were not baffled, because they were still being ignored. So BB’s logic of “why Tinder works for men” is a little jumbled depending on how you shuffle the numbers and present the information. When more men on were on Tinder…..still 80% were being ignored, but now only the top 10-20% are there…of course it works well for men….Tinder is working bc most men are getting the proper swipes

  8. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I don’t know if men are really winning, if eighty percent of them have to drop out. Still, they can take a little malicious satisfaction from knowing that women, by their own choice, are cutting their own throats in the marketplace.

  9. lastmod says:

    This really is no better than what Rollo, or Rich Cooper, or PUA a decade before, or the “Double Your Dating” guy (DeAngelo) was talking about in the late 1990’s. How to be a “man” and what is a real man (according to them)? Women noticing you / wanting you / wanting sex with you…..seems to be the common denominator in all these approaches.

    Remember too hypergamy…..most men today are just going to be rejected because the standards / expectations are sky-high……..Face and LMS was talking about on his live stream a few weeks back. He is English. he mentioned about how more and more men who are indeed 7 or 8 and are young (twenties) are stumbling to his “incel / black pill world” and hanging out because they too are standing around with fewer and fewer option.

    Even a man who raises his son to be “uber manly” (sh*tting on other people is usually how this is modeled and taught) “Assh*le Father Proud of Assh*le Son” type of thing) might not get the results his dad got. Heeck….even my dad managed to get a rare date and end up meeting my mother

  10. Joe2 says:

    …the guys in my masculinity course last semester saw just how utterly deficient NYC churches are at building up the fellas…But we’re in trouble. Ladies will ask, “where are all the good men?”

    The author’s premise is the fellas are somehow lacking and weak and will always remain so. Therefore, to remedy this situation they need 3-6 hours per week to be sharpened by other men in some kind of formalized church program.

    Good grief! The author’s solution is a feminist’s dream – it proves men are deficient. A coed program on relationships might be more appropriate, but that might step on some feminist toes which must be prevented, so it’s a no go from the start.

  11. Anonymous Reader says:

    The author’s solution is a feminist’s dream – it proves men are deficient.

    There’s a big difference between the neverending feminist contempt and helping men to overcome various deficits. It’s well known that a stronger body is associated with physical and mental health; many men find it useful to do certain physical workouts with a friend in order to keep fit. A pastor I know used to join some other men to lift multiple days, before he and his wife had children. A wise man would choose such friends wisely, with care.

    Every man has deficits. Some of us work on them. Seems logical that Christian, believing men would benefit from helping other, similar men to work on these things.

    A coed program on relationships might be more appropriate,

    That describes just about every “Christian Singles” group out there, such are often failures for obvious reasons. Anyone under 45 should know this already.

    but that might step on some feminist toes which must be prevented, so it’s a no go from the start.

    I notice that you don’t offer any alternative to the idea in the OP. So you are ready to criticize, but not ready to help? Are you opposed to all self help / self improvement, or just for young men?

  12. MP says:

    Hi all, this is Mitch, 22 from Canada. I have a couple thoughts. Firstly in terms of mentor ship and fellowship I think it’s a good idea in principle, trouble is that there is not many people that will mentor and encourage you to be strong and assertive. In terms of relationships how many will coach you to be firm with a wife who’s gone astray and push through the tears and potential hostility? In some cases it might be better to go it alone because outside influences will end up diluting your resolve. Thankfully we’re never truly alone so long as we remember to read the word and pray.

    Secondly, about the state of the dating scene. I see a lot of disparaging talk about women and the dating market. If you took what you here at face value you’d think every girl was getting down with a new guy all the time. What I see in reality is that some girls are probably foolin around, but it seems to me a lot of girls are disengaged because the hook up culture has made such a mess of things.

  13. Joe2 says:

    @AR

    I notice that you don’t offer any alternative to the idea in the OP. So you are ready to criticize, but not ready to help? Are you opposed to all self help / self improvement, or just for young men?

    The author doesn’t address any of the concerns mentioned in the above comments (hypergamy, unrealistic expectations, 80/20 rule, etc.) but seems to focus only on young men and the need to improve them. His approach is not balanced. The men have identified the issues and the church needs to address them.

  14. Anonymous Reader says:

    How would you suggest that a man leading a group address hypergamy, expectations, Pareto, etc.?

    His approach is not balanced.

    What do you think a balanced approach to this would look like?

    The men have identified the issues and the church needs to address them.

    Which church are you referring to? How is this church to address these issues? As far as I can tell, most (all?) churches simply deny the existence of these issues. What should men do about that?

  15. Joe2 says:

    @AR

    As far as I can tell, most (all?) churches simply deny the existence of these issues.

    Do you think the churches truly believe these issues don’t exist?

  16. Anonymous Reader says:

    Do you think the churches truly believe these issues don’t exist?

    Watch what they do, discount what they say. Over time much is revealed. There might even be a Bible quote or two on this.

    Now, I really would like for you to answer the questions that I asked, concluding with “what should men do about that”.

  17. Joe2 says:

    @AR

    Now, I really would like for you to answer the questions that I asked, concluding with “what should men do about that”.

    There needs to be a discussion with the pastor regarding these concerns. His receptiveness to a discussion and answers can provide the basis for any action.

    This is exactly what the students in the masculinity course did after they attended the C3 NYC church. The pastor was not receptive to any critique of the programs. He attempted to assassinate their character, called them boys with small minded attitudes, not teachable, lack humility, etc. Lots of guys eventually stopped going. Lots of girls loved it though!

    Vote with your feet and wallet and if you don’t find a church it’s better to stay at home.

  18. feeriker says:

    saw just how utterly deficient NYC churches are at building up the fellas

    Good grief, really? THIS IS NEW YORK CITY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT, guys. True Christianity has about as much presence there as it does in Riyadh, Islamabad, or Pyongyang. OF COURSE these “churches” are failing men, because they’re failing at the BASICS OF THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL!

    If churchian franchises in the Bible Belt that at least pay lukewarm lip service to biblical truth can’t or won’t build up men, what kind of clueless delusion does it take to think any such organizations in Paganism Central are motivated do it?

    The saddest aspect of this is that even if these guys do leave New York (which is the wisest choice they could make, for many other reasons wholly unrelated to the topic of discussion here), the problem will follow them wherever they go as long as they tie themselves to the current churchian model of worship and fellowship.

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    Joe2

    Thanks for the reply. I know what the young men in NYC did, it was you who critiqued them for having a single-sex meeting; you said they were not balanced, and suggested including women. That’s a bad plan IMO, but I did ask you what that would look like. You don’t appear to actually have a reply. It’s another version of “Yer doin’ it all wrong”, frankly, something I first saw years ago. I check my calendar to see if it is still 2012 I’m reading The Spearhead site, but it’s actually 2020 and we are here.

    It is ironic to go around this circle yet again, and on this site. Because one of the things we all should give credit to Deep Strength for is his book. He got off the dime, took ideas and information from multiple sites including Dalrock, collaborated with other men on some issues and wrote out a manual for Christian men to succeed in getting married and staying married. He could have been like all the rest of us, endlessly wrangling on various websites over basic details, but he chose to act in a more constructive manner. We should be grateful for that work!

    Perhaps some men should collaborate on another book project: how to construct and maintain groups of Christian men for mutual edification and encouragement. It would be more work than carping “Yer doin’ it all wrong!” but also more helpful to other men.

    Just a thought.

  20. Joe2 says:

    @AR

    Thanks for the reply. I know what the young men in NYC did, it was you who critiqued them for having a single-sex meeting; you said they were not balanced, and suggested including women. That’s a bad plan IMO, but I did ask you what that would look like. You don’t appear to actually have a reply.

    Excuse me, but please don’t mischaracterize or misrepresent what I wrote. Please let me elaborate which I hope will clarify.

    I wrote:

    The author doesn’t address any of the concerns mentioned in the above comments (hypergamy, unrealistic expectations, 80/20 rule, etc.) but seems to focus only on young men and the need to improve them. His approach is not balanced. The men have identified the issues and the church needs to address them.

    The author mentions one benefit of the 3-6 hour per week program which relates to answering the question – Ladies will ask, “where are all the good men?” He also mentions that a woman’s quality of life is significantly improved if the man in her life has been spending time with other men learning how to love well from other guys, esp. older guys.

    The author’s focus on young men seems to be improving them for the benefit of women. There may be other benefits, but the author doesn’t mention them. Also, the author doesn’t mention whether young women need to be improved nor suggest they should be taught how to be a Christian wife. The author is focused on young men and silent on young women. Thus, the author’s approach is not balanced. Nevertheless, the author mentions learning how to love from other older men apparently based on their empirical experience rather than being taught from the bible. I mentioned a coed approach simply because it would bring in women and their biblical roles whereas the author’s approach excluded them. I didn’t critique the young men for having a single sex meeting; I critiqued the author for excluding young women.

    I wrote:

    This is exactly what the students in the masculinity course did after they attended the C3 NYC church. The pastor was not receptive to any critique of the programs. He attempted to assassinate their character, called them boys with small minded attitudes, not teachable, lack humility, etc. Lots of guys eventually stopped going. Lots of girls loved it though!

    Unless you have some inside information, all we know is students from the masculinity course (as well as the college) attended the church. We don’t know anything about them – the number of students, the male to female ratio, whether a critique of the programs was part of a class assignment, whether some of the girls were on board or whether some of the guys disagreed. In fact, we don’t even know what they told the pastor.

    What we do know is the attitude and the reaction of the pastor which, quite frankly resulted in some very nasty comments. The young men were faced with a dismissive attitude and character assassination. I think that was an excellent learning experience them as well as for those girls who may have been supporting them or watching what was going on. They experienced first hand what it is like to criticize the establishment.

    Finally:
    I believe I had already supplied my reply. Don’t go to a church with which you believe doesn’t build up men and puts them down. And don’t continue to go to such a church with the intent of changing it. Stay at home. No such man made program exists or could be designed to correct such deficiency because the answers on biblical roles are already in the bible.

    Years ago, the issue in my church was “submission” which the pastor carefully sidestepped to avoid offending the young women. When pushed for an answer on when he was going to teach on the issue he became dismissive and the young men were considered losers. This caused a mass exodus of young men from the church. The young men who remained were probably in the top 10 – 20% so women naturally submitted to them.

  21. Jack says:

    Regarding mass exodus, I know of some churches that actually seek to rid themselves of the “bottom feeders” — single mothers, drifters, young men with unresolved issues, and the elderly, etc. They want to build momentum and create an energetic church, not one weighed down with parasites.

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