Relational archetypes and more insight into the false godliness of complementarianism theology

Started to comment on Jack’s More on Relational archetypes, but the comment was too long so we’ll do it here.

DS disagrees with Rollo’s Cardinal Rule, but I think many relationships do play out this way, and so it needs to be considered. I think DS would agree that if both the man and the wife are aiming to glorify God in a Headship structure, then this competition should become much less of an issue.

I somewhat agree and disagree. I think most of the manosphereian rules also fall somewhat prey to the apex fallacy as well. In accordance with the sexual strategy rule, men who are most attractive will tend to default to a polygamist lifestyle and the women who are most attractive will default to a serial monogamy lifestyle.

Things does not necessarily play out to the stated scenario. In most societies, 90-95% of both men and women will marry. Also, most of the men and women who do want to marry — the “good” men — will marry off taking a bunch which means the women who don’t marry will complain about “where did all the good men go?” Sure, some men may default to polygamy and some women will default to serial monogamy (the most attractive and/or narcissistic ones typically), but I would say most still prefer one relationship/marriage if they could have it.

The current marriage climate is seeing some disruptions to this model, but it seems to be for the most part not actually a large decline in people getting into relationships and only simply marriage itself. Since Christian morality went out the window more people are considering cohabitation in the short or long term instead of getting married. This makes up for the larger disparities in actual marriage.

One thing is the placement of Celibacy on the graph. Celibacy is a unique relational position, because the woman is independent, but she still remains under the authority of her father. I think true celibacy is very rare, because most women are sexually involved with a man at least once in their life, and this upsets the clarity of authority over her head. Secular, independent, adult women who may or may not have been previously married, may not recognize any form of male authority over her, and if this is the case, then although she may not be sexually active, she fails to conform to the Christian archetype of true Celibacy. Older widows or single women whose father has died are special cases of Celibacy, if it can be called such. I have to offer a disclaimer on the details, as there are technicalities which I have not yet worked out in great detail.

Numbers 30 on vows is fairly instructive for how it was in Israel.

Young women were under the authority of their father, married women were under the authority of their husbands, and widows and divorced were independent and responsible. At the very least in the latter part of 1 Corinthians 7 seems to indicate that young women were/are still under the authority of their fathers in the New Covenant. 1 Timothy 5 does tell younger widows to marry because otherwise they became busybodies without a husband.

I don’t think Numbers 30 applies to all cultures or anything like that (e.g. we’re not under the Law and thus not under circumcision nor Numbers 30 vow structures), but they are good principles to understand, especially in light of 1 Corinthians 7 and 1 Timothy 5.

It is fairly well known that the wife has much more influence than the husband towards creating happiness in a marriage. (“Defensive” may not be a very good word to describe this, but I am hard pressed to think of a better description.) To understand why this is, one only needs to consider the two dichotomies in the graph.

  • The man only has defacto authority if the woman has a “Thing” for him. Besides the plain fact that there are precious few men who are able to instill the blessed Tingles and/or exert masculine Headship, this status is somewhat unstable and always subject to change (c.f. hypergamy).
  • The woman’s mindset and habits of submission are subject to her own discretion. She can always choose to be disobedient and/or disrespectful.

Here are a couple posts that describe this imbalance in more detail.

Because of this dynamic, it is more accurate to use the husband’s happiness as an indicator of his wife’s spiritual maturity, and less accurate to trust the converse proposition as an indicator of the husband’s worth, as is customary within Churchianity.

I disagree with the premise that women have more influence. A crappy wife or a crappy husband can make the conditions of a marriage miserable both ways. In particular, to the second point that respect and submission are at the behest of a wife, so too are a husband’s headship and love. I do, however, acknowledge there are typically more disrespectful and rebellious wives objectively than lazy and good for nothing husbands. This tendency is more a product of the culture than anything. I’d expect some more of the opposite when patriarchal norms are more accepted at least.

However, the happiness of a spouse should never have dependent on the state of a marriage in the first place. Such is living in step with the Spirit where the disciples can sing joyfully in the prison after they were beaten.

Obviously, God has it right in the fact that He made Biblical marital roles and responsibilities unconditional — the good and godly behavior of a spouse can influence the other toward Christ. The major issue is that we’re often bound by our own timelines, and we wish or hope that change is more immediate which can cause mismatched expectations and covert contracts which sabotage the efficacy of God’s structures.

In the former post, DS said that the dotted male submission line is the same line as the female submission line. I separated these two lines because there is a grey area in real-life relationships, in which there is some degree of mutual submission depending on the issue. This is best exemplified by a Complementarian structure in which the man and wife hold traditional gender roles. The man is an authority in certain areas, such as politics, religious doctrines, and which car to buy, while the woman is an authority in other areas, such as the frequency of church attendance, choosing a school for the children, and how child rearing is to be implemented. In a true Headship, the wife consults her husband on every decision and follows his directive accordingly. She rarely (if ever) insists on having things “her way”, and instead, finds joy in discovering the purposes behind her husband’s directives.

Complementarianism claims that the husband and wife discuss everything and then the husband’s vote is a tie break. What happens in practice is everything is all well and good as long as the husband is making decisions that the wife likes, but when he doesn’t she emotionally manipulates him until she gets her way. Ironically, this is pretty much similar to how things run in egalitarian and most non-feminist but egalitarian relationships and marriages. The only time you have women in charge explicitly is when the woman/wife actually literally says she wears the pants.

On the surface there is the claim that these things are happening, but under the surface they are all the same: disrespect and manipulation tactics are coming a man’s way if he wants something that she disagrees with. That’s why I still think the lines are in the same place. When push comes to shove, the wife is in control or exerts tactics to make sure she gets what she wants.

One aspect I’ve noticed is that the more a husband and wife agree on most everything in the case of complementarianism or other non-feminists structures the more ambiguous it looks to us. However, many of the complementarians will take this as a sign of godliness — “wow, their marriage is so great because they’re in agreement on everything.” If we remember back to CBMW’s definition of headship, their interpretation of Scripture is the husband and wife should agree on everything and if they disagree then the husband gets the tie break.

However, this is not a sign of godliness but just two people getting along well usually by personality and underlying dynamic. When push comes to shove and the husband decides something that his wife doesn’t like, we’ll see how godly she is with her respect and submission. The wives who pass this test of godliness today are definitely in the minority.

Moreover, this incorrect assumption of “godliness by agreement” gives the layperson husband and wives (and even pastors I believe) the wrong impression and makes it much more difficult to have real godliness when there is actually a disagreement. For instance, “we had such a godly marriage until this came up” — no, not really. You agreed with each other a bunch because you have similar personalities and there was no conflict. When conflict came, your real character and ability to honor God was revealed. And it wasn’t pretty.

True headship does not require consulting on every directive because authority is able to be delegated in the Scripture and can be by a husband. For example, if a wife has expertise in a certain area a husband might delegate that to her and also if there are minor decisions like day to day life style he can say I trust your judgment on them.

When people describe marriage as “hard work” or “requiring work”, I like to think they are referring to the daily tasks required to maintain or progress towards a Christ honoring Headship.  This may or may not be the case, depending on the personalities involved, but it needs to be emphasized that when we talk about a Christian marriage, we aren’t just talking about a wedding ceremony and the related legal documents.  No, a Christian marriage is defined/determined by whether it is characterized by Headship — male authority and female submission.  Any other type of relational structure is not a Christian marriage by definition.  Either or both the husband or wife may or may not be Christians, but without Headship, they don’t have a Christian marriage.

I mostly agree with this. I have a friend who is a pastor who has said his marriage is hard work. He also married a pretty head strong woman. I don’t know his exact view, but I’m pretty sure they’re both complemenetarians, and they have a hard time implementing it because of her strong will to want to do things her way. Same with my parents.

This gets sticky when we realize that it is possible for two people to be unbelievers, yet still have a Christ-like relationship. This is true because all humanity remains under the pre-Edenic Covenant.

Yes, the structures of authority that God created at the beginning anyone can benefit from. Hopefully, they are able to recognize that they are in God’s plan and turn to Him, but they still reap many of the benefits of stability and peace from being within it even though they don’t acknowledge Him.

Another way to succinctly describe this “move” from one relationship structure to another is carried in the concepts of redemption and sanctification.  A man’s marriage and family experience redemption when a Headship structure is attained and/or maintained.  This means that God is able to use this marriage and family for His purposes towards holiness, glory, growth, and bearing fruit, rather than it being relegated to a common, real life, sitcom drama filled with self-centered sins of ignorance.

Sanctification is also more likely to occur in Headship.  But this is a little more complicated, because the man, or especially the woman, may not find internal joy and contentment in adopting the Headship structure.  This weakness becomes more pronounced with women who are steeped in the Strong Independent Wimmin™ mindset, and/or who have a sordid sexual history and can no longer bond to a man in marriage.

Agree here as well.

What we can say about the Biblical marital roles and responsibilities is that, like the Christ and the Church, they aim to bring about oneness. The husband heads the marriage with love for the purpose of sanctification and honors his wife and treats her like himself, and the wife submits and respects her husband. Both are required to kill their own ego and be concerned about obeying God and giving their spouse what God says they need.

 

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20 Responses to Relational archetypes and more insight into the false godliness of complementarianism theology

  1. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Still no comments? I don’t think that addressing men is going to help here. The problem is that women are in rebellion against God and nature. What should men do? Seek God’s advice. He had to know this was coming.

  2. Jack Russell says:

    90-95% getting married seem way to high for this day and age. Was high even for the late 50’s and early 60\s.

  3. @ fuzzie

    I don’t think that addressing men is going to help here. The problem is that women are in rebellion against God and nature. What should men do? Seek God’s advice. He had to know this was coming.

    None of my posts are to help the situation as a whole. That would mean convincing all Christians that headship is the correct marriage structure as opposed to entrenched non-Christian alternatives like complementarianism, egalitarianism, feminism, etc.

    Only individual men can make their own choices, and obviously part of that is finding a potential woman/wife who wants to actually follow their lead and is teachable.

  4. @ Jack

    90-95% getting married seem way to high for this day and age. Was high even for the late 50’s and early 60\s.

    It’s not just marriage now. It’s marriage + cohabitation.

    Would not be surprised if the marriage + cohabitation rate is pretty close to 90% still.

  5. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    Are you suggesting that we look for unicorns. That is the problem. Compatible women are so few and far between. In the end, we are going to need a collective solution.

  6. Anonymous Reader says:

    Fuzzie
    Are you suggesting that we look for unicorns.

    He is not, but from years of reading your comments it obviously looks that way to you. Your mindset is self-defeating.

    That is the problem. Compatible women are so few and far between.

    There’s your problem, Eeyore. That black-pilled no-hope mindset will have effects on your behavior, and that in turn affects how you interact with other people including potentially compatible women. This has been explained to you before.

    In the end, we are going to need a collective solution.

    Not possible. Don’t expect everyone else to solve your problem for you.

  7. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deep Strength
    Would not be surprised if the marriage + cohabitation rate is pretty close to 90% still.

    Seems legit, but the data should be relatively easy to find. I’ll look around.

  8. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    AR,
    This is not one of those places where you get brownie points for putting down other commenters. Dalrock is gone, As is Chateau Heartiste and all the other PUA blogs. They are gone for a reason.
    As I keep pointing out, it won’t get the car back on the road to continue to fix that which is not broken. That is what addressing the men is doing. I wish that we know how to get through to the women, but it seems that no one does.
    You wouldn’t be here if this area of your life were successful, so please stop pretending you are superior to me or anyone else, for that matter.

  9. @ fuzzie

    Are you suggesting that we look for unicorns. That is the problem. Compatible women are so few and far between. In the end, we are going to need a collective solution.

    Christian virgins were thought to be extinct. I did the analysis on it a couple years ago, and it’s likely in most consistent Church goers it’s at least 30-40%.

    Obviously, all 30-40% of those Christian virgins aren’t all marriageable due to other factors, but it’s more manageable than most people think if you even want to be selective in vetting. There are also women who have had pre-marital sex and have come to Christ and been celibate for years and who are serving God wholeheartedly who would make good wives too. It’s up to each individual man to see what risk they want to tolerate.

    My point is there are men and women out there who want to follow Christ. It’s clearly not solvable on a macro level, but it is on an individual level for those that want to try.

  10. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deep Strength,
    Virginity is not an issue for me. I am pretty long in the tooth. What is an issue for me is that women are socially conditioned and it does not make them compatible with men. This gets to be a bigger factor as we get older. I really don’t know how to find the women you are describing. I think, at church, what I am likely to find would be Churchians. I am told that women overseas, while being poorer, put more value on marriage and family, but to counter that is Roosh’s old argument about smartphone market penetration. Someone jokingly suggested the Tibetan yak herding girl who does Tik Tok videos, but would she be as happy if someone took her away from her yaks? I think a lot of it is simply frustration. I am old enough to see that I have done enough and tried a lot of things both ways. Women do love to shoot men down. It must be an ego thing.
    We do need a collective solution. There aren’t enough real Christians out there.

  11. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I do need to add something. I don’t think that Bettina Arndt counsels women anymore with dating and I have heard about other dating counselors dropping women. There has to be a reason.

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  13. Virginity is not an issue for me. I am pretty long in the tooth. What is an issue for me is that women are socially conditioned and it does not make them compatible with men. This gets to be a bigger factor as we get older. I really don’t know how to find the women you are describing. I think, at church, what I am likely to find would be Churchians. I am told that women overseas, while being poorer, put more value on marriage and family, but to counter that is Roosh’s old argument about smartphone market penetration. Someone jokingly suggested the Tibetan yak herding girl who does Tik Tok videos, but would she be as happy if someone took her away from her yaks? I think a lot of it is simply frustration. I am old enough to see that I have done enough and tried a lot of things both ways. Women do love to shoot men down. It must be an ego thing.

    We do need a collective solution. There aren’t enough real Christians out there.

    There are still men and women out there who are serving the real Jesus.

    Generally, they’re only found in smaller Churches (though some in large), and they’re most often in the trenches actively doing things like food bank, various ministry stuff at Church, and things like that. That is men and women would have to be committed to actively walking out their faith as well to see the men and women who are too.

    Statistically, this is probably about 10-20% of people in most Churches who are actively engaged and serving so the numbers are definitely fewer.

    A lot of men I’ve met online here seem to think in-person Church is not that useful I have disagreed with that, but you have to get involved and most men don’t want to. But it’s generally there that you find the ones that are actually committed to Christ.

  14. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    DS,
    Thanks for the advice. I know that it was offered in good faith. I just wish that Donalgraeme would surface with a success story. There is also the small detail that if I find the virtuous woman, she kind of has to like me.

  15. Anonymous Reader says:

    This is not one of those places where you get brownie points for putting down other commenters.

    You are still too thin skinned for your own good. I know what that is like, and it isn’t good for anyone.

    Dalrock is gone, As is Chateau Heartiste and all the other PUA blogs. They are gone for a reason.

    This is a non sequitur. It is also not even close to accurate, as there are still multiple PUA / Game blogs.

    As I keep pointing out, it won’t get the car back on the road to continue to fix that which is not broken. That is what addressing the men is doing.

    There is a wide difference between what Deep Strength is doing here on this blog and what the old men do on other blogs. DS doesn’t shame men for wanting women to live up to their faith, for example. I was just reviewing a search on Dalrock’s site with the keyword “Abigail” and found an old debate from 2017 – 2018 with Doug Wilson’s followers.

    The only thing you can control is yourself. So start doing. Acta, non verba. That’s going to be difficult because of things in your past, but the past is done. It’s going to be even more difficult now when a lot of churches are either closed or gone all online, to be sure. But the latter condition won’t last forever.

    Acta, non verba. I read that on a PUA blog but it’s also in the Bible so there might be some truth in it.

    I wish that we know how to get through to the women, but it seems that no one does.

    Oh, come on. “We” know how to get through to women on the individual basis well enough. You might try re-reading Deep Strength’s book for some directions.

    You wouldn’t be here if this area of your life were successful,

    How do you know that / why do you believe that to be true?

    so please stop pretending you are superior to me or anyone else, for that matter.

    Have you ever been around someone who asked the same question over and over again?

  16. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    AR, I’ll take that as a personal attack.
    Deep Strength, thank you for your hospitality.
    As for the church idea. That might not work.

    So much for freedom of religion. It’s not just Manitoba.

  17. @ fuzzie

    Thanks for the advice. I know that it was offered in good faith. I just wish that Donalgraeme would surface with a success story. There is also the small detail that if I find the virtuous woman, she kind of has to like me.

    There are some success stories for sure, but I don’t think most people talk about them. I’m probably one of the more public ones I guess? Maybe I can throw up a post and to see if there are more success stories as well from lurkers.

  18. Anonymous Reader says:

    AR, I’ll take that as a personal attack.

    Sure, because you take even the mildest criticism as a personal attack. it is a sad thing, and you’ve been doing it for a few years.

    Fuzzy: Acta, non verba. Do, don’t just talk. Is that also a personal attack? If DS writes it to you, would it be a personal attack? If a pastor said it? If the Bible said it?

    Here’s one possible suggestion for you to act.

    No idea how things are in your location, but in my part of the flyover country the food banks are very busy. Some cities in my state have long lines of cars snaking around a convention center or a stadium. I’m sure that such food banks would welcome any volunteer, and you could provide encouragement to everyone around you while handing out boxes of food. If there’s a health reason why you would not want to do that, perhaps you could work in a warehouse filling boxes or some other capacity where you’d be away from the public. Or in a remote post directing traffic. In any capacity, you would meet some number of people who at least would be less selfish than the average American is nowadays, a good first step. Maybe make a new friend, it doesn’t have to be anything romantic, friends are good in and of themselves.

    The opportunities are there even now, they are literally pages out of DS’s book.

    Deep Strength
    There are some success stories for sure, but I don’t think most people talk about them.

    People over 50 will look at such and basically regard it as normal, so they’ll just say something like “Oh, that’s nice, they will be good for each other”. Gen X / Boomer leadership in churches is still way too clueless. People in their 20’s and 30’s might or might not talk about it.

    I know several people, both men and women, who have married via one of the Christian match sites. Two women who moved out of state, but did marry and within whatever church related parameters they had in mind. Obviously the men they married had their own parameters. Both parties got serious about the idea of marriage, and made some compromises.

    They took action.

    A nerdy fellow I know moved several states away to work in his field, but away from family he grew more confident. Now he’s married to a cute, nerdy girl and the last time I saw them a year ago they had a child. Maybe growing a beard helped, I dunno. But he clearly took action. He didn’t expect every woman in every church across the country to suddenly get their heads right, but he did find one who would submit to him in a Christian manner, and that was good enough for both.

    Open question for DS and others that I can’t answer: what does the Bible say about fear of other people?

  19. Joe2 says:

    Women do love to shoot men down. It must be an ego thing.

    I found this to be especially true or even the norm in church / religious environments. I recall situations where guys have experienced “nuclear” rejection from so called “nice single Christian” girls. “How dare you even think of me that way; I’m your sister in Christ,” was the response when a “nice single Christian girl” was asked if she wanted to get some coffee / brunch after Sunday service.

    I heard that the dynamic at play here among the “nice single Christian” girls is that they want to show the other women that they can attract a man, but it’s all a facade they put on and any relationship they seem to develop doesn’t go beyond the church door.

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