Why expectations of men and women are out of control

Rowena asks the question here about why sexual partner accounts are bad.

As a woman, I respectfully ask a question to the men in this forum. I ask only to understand things from a man’s point of view.

There is a lot of talk about body count of a woman. Higher the body count, worse the chance of pair bonding and greater chance of divorce. I am assuming that means number of men she slept with. Or is it number of times she has had sex?

Just asking – as assuming there is a girl LIKE Jill (not above Jill who is married) who has a relationship with a boyfriend like the above post. She has a sexual relationship with this man like above. So – after 10 years of being with this man – they break up.

Technically, she has a body count of ONE. In a committed relationship with ONE guy. For 10 YEARS. Would this make her better wife material than the girl with 5 one night stands over same 10 YEARS?

Obviously, she likes and enjoys sex. So one would think that she could replicate this with a future husband.

As a woman, I feel any man who FOLLOWED the boyfriend would find it challenging to generate that kind of attraction. Which is why I feel once virginity is lost, it is just a question of chance (God’s grace) and your ability to generate that attraction.

In the above context, does body count really matter? Once she has lost her virginity, does having a low body count mean anything? It just means she gave it up without a ring for a fewer NUMBER of men than others (maybe more number of TIMES than others). Is that a worthwhile metric of measurement?

In general, the why higher partner counts is bad is already proven:

The studies show that number of sexual partners for women is fairly correlated to divorce risk.

There’s various working theories, but the most prevalent seems to be that the higher the number of sexual partners the more comparisons she has to make toward her husband. Thus, if her husband doesn’t measure up in some way to partner #1, 2, 3, 4, etc up to say 10 (n count = 10) in various different areas then she is more likely to be dissatisfied and start disrespecting and/or rebelling. For instance, if #2 made 6 figures, #5 had an athletes muscular physique, and #7 had his own house, even though all of these are different people she will generally expect that her husband should have most if not all of those qualities.

This is why expectations seem to be sky high with women nowadays. They’re taking aggregate comparisons of lots of men they slept with and expect the next one (e.g. their potential husband) to have all of the best qualities of all of those men put together.

This video shows a woman (dating coach) discussing it. She had to be checked herself by an older male mentor when she started doing it, and then she realized that all of the other women she was coaching were doing it too.

A similar thing tends to happen in men with the desensitizing nature of airbrushed women on social media, advertising, and porn. Once a man has seen so much “beauty” per se, he becomes more desensitized toward normal looking women in everyday life (not counting overweight/obesity type stuff). Hence, normal women can’t meet his unrealistic standards anymore.

This male phenomena is generally known by most, and both women and men will berate other men for doing this. But it’s rarely the case that anyone talks about womens’ unrealistic expectations at least in real life.

In regard to the rest of the question about women being with one man (and having sex a lot of times) versus being with many men, the male commenters have generally covered that. Men generally evaluate promiscuity as casual and may date and/or have sex with such women but they won’t marry them. If they’re looking for a wife and children they’re going to look more highly upon a woman who is able to commit and stay loyal.

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28 Responses to Why expectations of men and women are out of control

  1. thedeti says:

    1) This is why expectations seem to be sky high with women nowadays. They’re taking aggregate comparisons of lots of men they slept with and expect the next one (e.g. their potential husband) to have all of the best qualities of all of those men put together.

    Women do kind of talk about this but don’t see it as a problem. What they say is that they look for sex partners, but then later get serious and look for boyfriends/husbands. They admit that when they’re looking for serious relationships, they are adding to the “sex partner” part, all the “boyfriend stuff”. So they’re looking for good looking, confident, dominant, fit and trim men who also have all the boyfriend traits like has a job, has his own place, good with money, loves his mom, volunteers at the local homeless shelter, is woke and SJW-aware, loves puppies, etc.

    Women really don’t see this as being unreasonable. They talk about it, and really think they should be able to get all of the above, and more, in one man.

    2) Men compromise on this. I admit I wrote a comment to Rowena stating that men care less about the N than that it is low, and that they are getting the same sexual treatment that the prior men got. That’s my opinion, and others might not share the opinion, I don’t know. I can say that men are willing to compromise on it even though accepting a woman with an N is certainly not ideal.

  2. Mark S Griffith says:

    Currently, due to the heave, over emphasis of women going to college/grad school and careers, there is a surplus of “high value” women vs. men. This leads directly to more promiscuity among women because in order to attract a mate, women have to “do more” than they other wise would.

    The exact opposite happens when women are scarce. Example: The Old West. Women were in short supply and as a result were almost worshipped by the men. Chastity and modesty were the norm.

  3. Bardelys the Magnificent says:

    Any N > 0 makes her a crapshoot. Some men simply won’t take the gamble, for good reason. Questions like the one Rowena is asking are going to become more frequent. They’re trying to put the virginity genie back in the bottle.

  4. imnobody00 says:

    I don’t think comparisons are the whole story. There is something else. The fact that “being in love” is like a scotch tape: works well the first time but, if you detach it, the second time it does not attach well to the second surface, the third time it is even worse and so on and so forth.

    These women were very much in love with her first love, the high school boyfriend (or the college boyfriend or the boyfriend in the first years of work, depending on the girl). This guy was far from perfect but he was perfect in his girlfriend’s eyes. But our society is not arranged for monogamy. Then, high school ended, people moved on, they moved across the country to get a job, they wanted to play the field or “find themselves”, you name it.

    Now these women try to recover the feelings of being in love that the first boyfriend produced in them. So only perfection would do because, deep down, they are not that in love. The more partners they have had, the harder is to attach to a guy so they need more and more qualities to commit.

    In the Southern European country I was born, when my dad was young, my grandma (rest in peace) used to tell him: “You shouldn’t go with this girl. She is “touched””, meaning that the girl had had a boyfriend. The norm was that you marry the first girl/boy you date and you only have sex after marriage and only with your spouse. Divorce was forbidden back then. So it was really “till death do us part” and things worked better back then. It was not perfect and couples had a lot of problems but such is life. Society was more stable, children could have a stable family and so on.

    Fast forward some decades and my number of sexual partners is more than 50 and I have had about 6 important relationships. In this kind of red pill blogs, people say that promiscuity does not change you if you are a man, but this is false. I was only in love with my first girlfriend, which was a b*tch. Nobody has produced the same feelings in me. After that, I became pickier and pickier and had to settle. Of course, I love my wife, but it is more a companionship love than being in love. She is a huge help for me but I don’t feel the same romantic feelings or sex attraction as with my first girlfriend.

    It seems that the human being is programmed to function better with monogamy. Couples bond better this way. That’s all.

  5. Hoyos says:

    There’s plenty studies don’t account for.

    I have a theory, I may be wrong. While any infractions against purity are a bad thing, it’s possible to be basically healed (in this case a restored ability to pair bond), if repentance and a commitment to chastity are combined with time.

    The same way men who abstain from pornography and masturbation experience a “reboot”, I suspect the same can happen with women as well. Not as good as never falling into the trap in either case, but not necessarily impossible either.

    The problem is threefold, spiritual damage, “brainwashing”, and the physical effects of dopamine, oxytocin, vasopressin, etc.

    These studies are done on women by and large who probably don’t address the spiritual problem, still believe the delusions of lust and the sexual Revolution (the “brainwashing” and in many ways the root of the problem, deeply connected to the spiritual problem), and don’t address the dopamine chasing either.

    We’re almost learning too much and too little from science at the same time. Science views things as materialist and determinist in nature, a crippled view of humanity. God’s intervention absolutely matters, so do our own choices, especially our internal ones. At the same time, we ignore that dopamine etc, can be rebooted with abstinence from hyper stimulus.

    There is no replacement for judgement. Rahab the harlot wound up in the lineage of Christ BECAUSE she showed great faith when it could have cost her dearly to do so. Of course not every harlot is like Rahab, and it’s always gravely dangerous to be a harlot in general.

    TLDR Just do the stuff you know you should be doing anyway, remember that sin never pays out anyway on balance so you’re sacrificing nothing by giving it up, and put all this on a foundation of faith, asking God for wisdom, and repentance. Stop trying to divine if you’ve “ruined your life” with impurity, statistics are incomplete knowledge anyway, and can end up meaning almost nothing on an individual level. Don’t kid yourself that sin is ok, but God provides a remedy for that.

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  7. @ imnobody00

    In the Southern European country I was born, when my dad was young, my grandma (rest in peace) used to tell him: “You shouldn’t go with this girl. She is “touched””, meaning that the girl had had a boyfriend. The norm was that you marry the first girl/boy you date and you only have sex after marriage and only with your spouse. Divorce was forbidden back then. So it was really “till death do us part” and things worked better back then. It was not perfect and couples had a lot of problems but such is life. Society was more stable, children could have a stable family and so on.

    I’m not too sure this is true for boyfriends. I think with sex yes there is some aspect of pair bonding, but not necessarily dating and/or first love.

    Divorce being “forbidden” has been a relative thing across cultures. Even Jewish culture with the Pharisees had a problem with divorce.

    Fast forward some decades and my number of sexual partners is more than 50 and I have had about 6 important relationships. In this kind of red pill blogs, people say that promiscuity does not change you if you are a man, but this is false. I was only in love with my first girlfriend, which was a b*tch. Nobody has produced the same feelings in me. After that, I became pickier and pickier and had to settle. Of course, I love my wife, but it is more a companionship love than being in love. She is a huge help for me but I don’t feel the same romantic feelings or sex attraction as with my first girlfriend.

    Yes, this is a symptom of player burnout, and it definitely affects men. However, it’s probably not to the same extent as women.

  8. @ Mark S Griffith

    Currently, due to the heave, over emphasis of women going to college/grad school and careers, there is a surplus of “high value” women vs. men. This leads directly to more promiscuity among women because in order to attract a mate, women have to “do more” than they other wise would.

    Yup, the relative lack of women in higher education and higher paying jobs did help marriage whereas now it plays the opposite effect with too many.

    That genie is not going to go back in the bottle because “equality” and extremely few Christians now would advocate for that either.

  9. @ Hoyos

    I have a theory, I may be wrong. While any infractions against purity are a bad thing, it’s possible to be basically healed (in this case a restored ability to pair bond), if repentance and a commitment to chastity are combined with time.

    The same way men who abstain from pornography and masturbation experience a “reboot”, I suspect the same can happen with women as well. Not as good as never falling into the trap in either case, but not necessarily impossible either.

    I don’t think the “born again virgin” type of peddling is true, but I believe this is the case to some extent.

    How much healing can be done is hard to say. The physical consequences of sin can persist forever like viral STDs (herpes, HIV, etc.) and likewise I think the effects of sin on the mind and emotions too. But repentance can and does bring some healing.

    Whether it’s anywhere from say 10-90% is hard to tell (artificial ranges just as an example), and I suspect it heavily depends on a person’s psychological state and biology just like “drugs” affect people many different ways. Some get addicted. Some don’t. Some get dependent. Some don’t.

    I think the best we can do is be like Paul who murdered Christians, but once he became one he was humble and sorrowful about his past. However, it made him work all the harder to be like Christ and for Christ.

  10. Rowena says:

    thedeti sir – your comment “men care less about the N than that it is low, and that they are getting the same sexual treatment that the prior men got”
    I think the above is coloured perhaps by the assumption that a sexually attractive man is ALSO a sexually experienced man. That may not always be the case. Many CHRISTIAN men stay celibate not because they are NOT sexually attractive but because they want better from their wives and the women who make good wives are in short supply.
    For my husband – it was either virgin for wife or celibacy. Again, that was just ONE factor he took into consideration (he had several!!!) but it was VERY important to him. He feels men are so desperate for sex and there are so few virgins around that men “settle” in this area. Men do NOT want or desire this. They are making do with what they can get.
    In his opinion – it is not just sexual history (there is whole lot of emotional baggage and issues that come up with it). He felt celibacy was better than dealing with that. He wanted a “helper” not a “headache”. And in his mind sexual history was a headache he just did not want to deal with. Perhaps he is right as the statistics show. He feels it is like asking a woman who has been at a buffet all December to suddenly settle for homecooked meals from January for LIFE. No matter how delicious the homecooked meals are – she is conditioned for the variety of the buffet. Is it possible – yes! Probable? He was not taking any chance. And there is added complication that when children come – there is no question who mother of child is but who the father is and this boils down to – how much you trust her with the answer; has she stayed away from the buffet while your back was turned; is she still in touch with former flames – what are boundaries for that – in HIS opinion – NOT WORTH IT!!!! That is my husband’s opinion. And just to clarify – I respect it.
    But I was interested in knowing what OTHER men thought. So to rephrase question – Is reason for interest in sexual history of woman because of what SHE will do (she changes the rules; she is more likely to divorce etc.; she is more likely to be disrespectful etc.) Or is it because YOU as a MAN DESIRE a woman that has no sexual history (like my husband – wants a wife who is completely his; feels it is insulting to offer “husband” status to woman who gave sexual access to a man who was NOT her husband; he will spend more time dealing with all that baggage – time wasted that could instead be spent on his mission etc)

  11. Rowena says:

    Mark S. Griffith sir – could you please define what you think is a “high value” woman. Because from what I read, college is place where women seem to gather their sexual history and begin losing value as a WIFE.
    In the Old West – patriarchy was the norm. Chivalry was valued in patriarchy because women being chaste and modest was the norm. In other words – I was wondering if the cause and consequence are backward. Men are RESPONDING to BEHAVIOUR of women. Not the demand and supply of women. Women being chaste and modest made men chivalrous. Women being sexually promiscuous makes men use her for the “night” but not want to marry her for ALL “nights”.

  12. Rowena says:

    Bardelys the Magnificent sir – I am no one to put any virginity genie in any bottle. I am saying – Biblically a woman who was not a virgin on her wedding night was considered fit for death. That is a very sobering thought. That was God’s LAW. There are very few things that carry death penalty in Mosaic law. The law shows what GOD values. Salvation and grace does not make the law redundant. Christ only takes the punishment instead of us for breaking the law. The law points to how far we have fallen from that – and it is only then we understand grace.
    “Some men simply won’t take the gamble, for good reason.” I agree. My husband is one of those. But many men are willing to take the gamble. Hence – my question. To understand why do they?

  13. Rowena says:

    imnobody00 sir – I think concept of scotch tape you are referring to is the Biblical concept of “one flesh”. You cannot rip flesh apart and join it again with another flesh without repecussions. There is wounding and bleeding. I think it is this which makes sexual history so dangerous – as you are dealing with deep wounds. Greater the sexual history – deeper the wounds. Jesus heals wounds but how much of scar tissue remains is the question.

    And I deeply appreciate it sir – you have pointed out a very SIGNIFICANT fact. Sexual history affects MEN too. There are wounds and bleeding there too.

  14. Rowena says:

    Hoyos sir – Salvation makes us right with God. It does not make us competent to be suitable wives / husbands. Just because a person is born again does not mean they will follow GOD’s design for marriage. Suitable wives / husbands are those willing to take up the duties / responsibilities in marriage. In a Christian marriage – there is also mission to be considered – to be fruitful and multiply.

    As an analogy, both a doctor and an engineer may be saved but if I am sick – I will go to the DOCTOR because the doctor is competent (hopefully!!!) in treating my disease. Even though the doctor and engineer are BOTH saved. If one is looking for a relationship of sexual monogamy (which is what Christian marriage is) one must look for a person who has shown competence in their behaviour that they value this; I think this is why sexual history has importance – it shows how much the person values sexual fidelity. A person with more sexual history indicates less self-control in this area.
    Else one will end up trying to redefine what marriage is (Enter the open marriage) or exit the marriage (adultery leading to divorce) which might explain the statistics that deepstrength sir posted

  15. locustsplease says:

    @jack. She needs experience before she goes to college doesn’t want to disappoint Chad.

  16. Oscar says:

    Pwetty.

    Someone please teach that kid.

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  18. cameron232 says:

    Couple of thoughts. The biggest difference by far is from n=0 to n=1. That shows e.g. in the data from the Teachman (sp?) study that the Social Pathologist posted. From n=0 to n=1 (where 0 is zero men who aren’t her husband) you go from 80+% successful marriage to the flip-a-coin 50% divorce risk. You see this with couples who have slept together before marriage (but only with each other) so it’s not likely to be driven by sample bias where virgin couples are sampled from the very religious.

    Also, notice from the IFS study that divorce peaks at n=2 (which generally means 1 before hubby). I think this is because the woman is more likely to see the previous 1 man as “the one that got away” or “maybe he was the one” or is simply more likely to be pair bonded with the 1 previous man. The sad truth seems to be that if a man can’t get a virgin, there’s a statistical sweet spot for a woman being “a little slutty but not too slutty.” Note the n=2 risk data is consistent over 3 decades so there’s likely to be something there.

    Also we tend to focus on the woman’s psychology and not the man’s. Men are psychologically biased towards chastity for the obvious reason of paternity being uncertain. Modern paternity tests aren’t going to remove this psychology (whether it’s evolved or put there by God).

    There’s also the theoretical possibility of telegony (there are a number of scientific papers out there that explore the plausibility of this officially-wikipedia-discredited idea) – the idea that a man can share paternity with previous male sex partners. This may also underlie the psychological reality of a man placing lower value on a “used” woman (for lifetime marriage – if marriage is temporary men may just go for the “hottest” woman they can get).

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20626678/#:~:text=Telegony%20is%20the%20belief%20that,later%20offspring%20by%20another%20male.

    The reality is that men’s love (not lust) is conditioned by the feeling that “this woman is mine and mine alone.” Premarital sex with 1 or 100 men undermines this feeling.

  19. cameron232 says:

    Also, this recent one. It seems more papers are coming out suggesting the possibility of “micro-cuckoldry” by promiscuous women. There are a number that are hard to find online simply because they don’t use the word “telegony.” Women have 100% maternity. Men should be able to expect 100% paternity.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610722000682?via%3Dihub

  20. @ cameron

    Also, notice from the IFS study that divorce peaks at n=2 (which generally means 1 before hubby). I think this is because the woman is more likely to see the previous 1 man as “the one that got away” or “maybe he was the one” or is simply more likely to be pair bonded with the 1 previous man. The sad truth seems to be that if a man can’t get a virgin, there’s a statistical sweet spot for a woman being “a little slutty but not too slutty.” Note the n=2 risk data is consistent over 3 decades so there’s likely to be something there.

    I think the sweet spot is a woman that has sex prior to becoming a Christian and has been chaste since then. They’re more likely to take the gospel and Christian living seriously than women in the Church who call themselves Christians but continually compromise with the world.

    Not saying there aren’t some Christian women who have been in the Church who don’t repent and stay chaste either, but generally I think it’s harder to tell for most men. They look at Church attendance as some type of maturity factor instead of looking at a woman’s actions and fruit of their life.

    Agreed on the other points.

  21. cameron232 says:

    You’re probably right DS but you’re taking her word for it that she’s been chaste since coming to faith and they have every motivation to lie about this.

  22. @ cameron232

    You’re probably right DS but you’re taking her word for it that she’s been chaste since coming to faith and they have every motivation to lie about this.

    While true you generally make her discuss her situation first before you discuss what you prefer or don’t even say what you prefer. Thus, she has to guess.

    If she’s a lukewarm she’ll probably say it doesn’t matter and give some number. If she’s not a virgin but knows you prefer virgins she could lie but not always the case. Remember, most Christian men are generally more ‘forgiving’ of the past to their own detriment.

    Then you can talk to her friends and family and look for in-congruent behavior to see if she lied or not.

  23. Sharkly says:

    The Teachman data makes sense if your understanding of marriage is truly Biblical, and not just church following.

    Some fools imagine that the church is the author of marriage, and that the church joins two into one flesh, and that without the church’s sanction, or alternately a civil judge’s signature, there is somehow no possible joining in marriage, only decades of mutually committed fornication. LOL But what if God isn’t a liar? What if God Himself does join people together when they have sex. And what if that violation of the “till death” sexual union, is why certain sexual sins are in fact capital crimes, and not just because God Himself is somehow possessed by gnostic squeamish about the physical sex act that He designed to unite couples in marriage? LOL

    If you consider the fact that two virgins become married, joined into one flesh by God, as surely as God is not a liar, once they have sex. Then it makes sense that even though the sexual participants might doubt their own marriage status, and sexual purity, due to the wicked deception of a usurping church, which has sought to rob God of His sole dominion over His institution of marriage, the sexually united are, in fact, properly joined into one in the sight of thrice holy God, against whom the whoring churches are united in rebellion.

    Below is my synchronization of various translations of 1 Corinthians 7:36.

    If any man guesseth himself to be seen as fouling his virgin fiancée, and if she is old enough to be married, if his passions are strong, he should do what he desires, and let them so become married, it is no sin.

    The church’s have been working overtime to intentionally confuse the meaning of that verse, which they clearly don’t agree with. They’d rather slander men for having any God-given mating desire with womankind, who were God’s gift to men, and for penetrating a woman’s flesh and casting his seed into her, without their whoring gnostic cult first interloping into every man’s God-intended act of taking and making use of a woman.(who is the image and glory of their church’s gnostic goddess Sophia)

    Holy marriages which are only united by our holy God Himself, honoring the holy sexual (blood) covenant in accordance with God’s own holy nature, and as God’s always holy Son clearly reminded us, in His holy Word, have been wickedly slandered by a greatly whoring church, as having been “born of fornication” instead.(just as our Lord was also slandered of satanic men) Don’t listen to the whoring daughter churches of the Mother of Harlots. Don’t presume to make God a liar, but rather make every churchman a liar instead.(Romans 3:4)

    According to Teachman’s statistical data, God clearly blesses those marriages (which apostate churches have slandered) with far more natural stability than the unions of real fornicators, who instead ought to have been put to death in accordance with God’s eternal law, for all people, given to Noah and his sons. Even one instance of a woman committing real Biblical fornication, comes with a serious statistical increase in the chance of the complete destruction of your home.

    Exodus 22:16 If a man entices a virgin who isn’t pledged to be married, and lies with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

    That is not an instance of fornication, punishable by death, that is a “shotgun marriage”. The man has sinned against the virgin’s father by not getting his approval prior to taking her. So if the father wants to punish both the man and his daughter, for defrauding him and disregarding him, he can make the husband pay her bride price and can still keep her serving in his own house. And she certainly can’t marry anybody else so long as that husband, whom she is married to, lives. It all makes sense once you clear away the church’s false teaching, intended to satanically give whoring churches and women control over men, through having the church and women controlling and limiting a potential husband’s access to the sexual intimacy and the sexual acts that he naturally craves. God’s published laws are sufficient constraint for godliness. The church doesn’t need to add sex-constraints of their own invention, nor add a dose of Feminist sex-shaming of men, who are the image and glory of God.

  24. Sharkly says:

    If you imagine that a sexually upright man who has had sex with a marriageable and unengaged virgin woman, before your church, or your church’s illicit partner, the current powers of this world, have said “Simon says”, was somehow made a fornicator before God, you’ve been deceived and are worshipping a greatly whoring church, that was betrothed to Jesus Christ, but is cuckolding Him and usurping His will in exchange for the protection and provision of the presiding kings and powers of this world, instead. While the Bridegroom was away Christendom became a great unfaithful whore, not the faithful bride of Christ. The faithful virgin bride of the Last Adam will be given by God the Father Himself to the Last Adam, made from a tiny remnant, or rib, separated completely out from the body of Christ and made into a holy bride by God. To become bone of His unbreakable bones and flesh of His imperishable flesh.

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