Trust, attraction, and the Biblical female marital roles of helper, submission, and respect Part 1

I’ve sitting on Jack’s good summary of A distrusting woman is a divorcing woman for a while and have found a way to tie things together.

My quoted analysis:

When some people are stuck in patterns and habits of inverted relationships/marriage so long, then that becomes their normal. Normal is comfortable. She can manipulate you and has control over you and everything is good.

If you flip the script and start leading the relationship/marriage, then this is simply too much for some women. They are scared out of their minds not being in control because (surprise surprise) BPD and other types of women like that have trust issues, usually from broken homes, sexual abuse, or whatever else in their history. Most normal women who grew up in a healthy home will be uncomfortable at first but when you’re actually leading well they’ll start to fall in line.

This is pretty much what cognitive dissonance is. BPD women and women with trust issues can’t handle NOT being in control. They’ll do anything to get out of it, even if it’s in a better situation. They’d rather go back to the control and dysfunction. Similar to battered women syndrome and Stockholm syndrome.

This is also why we say, usually when you start leading, women will fall in line. Most women that actually are interested in serving God and have a reasonably healthy background will. But there are relationships where women are too dysfunctional to change and instead of starting to follow you, they’ll likely try to rebel more or just nope out. Just let them go per 1 Corinthians 7:15. Their choices are on their head as long as you are striving to uphold God’s commands.”

His analysis:

After considering these examples, I think the issue here (at least for these types of women) is not so much about personal gain and control as it is about trust. The reason that these women withhold sex and grasp for control is not for the control itself, but it’s because they are unwilling or unable to trust. Having control allows them to avoid having to be trusting, and this is their primary motive for maintaining control.

In addition, building trust in one another is only half of the equation. These examples also indicate that it’s crucial for one to be trusting as a personal quality, and for one to trust as a general habit. Women with various disorders, emotional scars, and trust issues just can’t do that, no matter how trustworthy the man might be.

The commonality of these distrusting types of women is that they would rather cop out of the marriage altogether than learn how to trust, even when the sex is good (for the woman) and it is obvious that they would have a much better life if they stayed. This observation greatly emphasizes the centrality of trust in a relationship, and suggests that trust is a much deeper issue than control (i.e. the Curse of Eve), or even hypergamy and the Tingles.

In general, this seems to be the theme of the past couple posts under the surface:

If both men and women are committed to following the Biblical roles and responsibilities and growing in sanctification as mature Christians they can have a godly marriage, no sex denial, and all such successful metrics. Similarly, men should be not be looking for the perfect prospect (unicorn) but rather a woman who is getting most stuff right and is willing to follow the man and is teachable.

When we go back to all of the Biblical marital roles and responsibilities we end up with:

  • Provider & protector (of the garden) – helper (Gen 2)
  • Headship – submission (Eph 5, 1 Cor 11, Col 3, Tit 2, 1 Pet 3)
  • Love – respect (Eph 5, 1 Pet 3)

What all of these seem to have in common from the woman aspect — helper, submission, respect — is the underlying theme of trust. She is to be a helper and not a harmer. She is to follow his lead and not be contentious or rebel, and she is to respect and not disrespect. This is adequately summed up by Proverbs 31.

Proverbs 31:11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain. 12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life.

Although the passage only says that the husband trusts in his wife, v12 also requires that a wife trust her husband with the result of that building him up and not tearing him down. Those with trust issues or mental health issues (e.g. BPD, NPD, etc) all tend to fail this test because they can’t trust the man for whatever reason. They are in essence unable to be good followers without divine intervention such as surrendering to God and having him heal their hearts.

Circling back to the “any two Christians can gave a godly marriage” and the Teachability part of FAST, we can see that teachability and ability to be effective in applying the Biblical marital roles and responsibilities require a fundamental heart trust in the man.

Scientific research has shown repeatedly that we tend to trust attractive people more. This appears to be the reason why the “tingly-respect” model tends to naturally fall into alignment with the headship-submission model from the Biblical marital roles. Womens’/wives’ attraction to their husband naturally increases their heart trust in their man/husband. This leads to greater willingness to naturally help him (helper), follow him (submit), and respect him (respect).

Obviously, this is not always the case as women and wives have the choice to rebel and be contentious regardless of attraction, but we can see the general strong correlation of this pattern. Conversely, we see the opposite also be true. If a man or husband lets himself go and becomes obese and lazy a woman’s attraction wanes and her likelihood of adhering to Biblical female roles and responsibilities gets way tougher. She is more likely to nag, be contentious, rebel, and otherwise be negative toward her husband.

Thus, we end up with a general schematic:

  • Womens’ ATTRACTION to men (via PSALM and masculinity) tends to lead to TRUST in the man
  • TRUST leads to a woman more naturally following Biblical female marital roles and responsibilities
  • Thus, TRUST leads to a woman being more willing to help, follow, and respect the man

This also ties together my Biblical analysis of how God made attraction and the role it plays in marriage. Men who strive to be fully who God made men to be — take dominion, provide, protect, etc — tend to build the PSALM and masculinity traits naturally. This also naturally starts to attract women and that attraction builds trust. This trust helps them more naturally want to fulfill the Biblical female roles and responsibilities.

In essence, attraction via fulfillment of God’s creation mandate provides the benefit of oil does to a car engine. It helps the gears and pistons to run more smoothly. Yeah, a car engine can run with minimal to no oil, at least for a time, but it will generally start to break down or be destroyed eventually. Not the best analogy ever but it provides a good reference for everyone to understand.

Trust, attraction, and the Biblical female marital roles of helper, submission, and respect Part 2

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18 Responses to Trust, attraction, and the Biblical female marital roles of helper, submission, and respect Part 1

  1. dave truck says:

    The problem is modernity itself. In the OT they lived in tents and the man and woman had separate tents. Now nobody has enough property to have separate houses but the rich and women have mandated living in houses rather than tents and created the modern world that is against nature and is artificial and men of the past 4 or 5 generations let them. So its over. The end times happened and we are simply in hell. Having to sit in an office and stare at a computer rather than work the land proves we are in hell. And women did the devil’s work in forcing men to bring this about.

  2. Oscar says:

    DS,

    So, attraction is a lubricant. It reduces friction. The jokes write themselves! I dig it, brother!

    But seriously….

    Proverbs 14:1 The wise woman builds her house,
    But the foolish pulls it down with her hands.

    The untrusting woman is foolish. It may not be her fault, she may be that way because of abuse, but you’re not obligated to take that on.

  3. @ dave truck

    The problem is modernity itself. In the OT they lived in tents and the man and woman had separate tents. Now nobody has enough property to have separate houses but the rich and women have mandated living in houses rather than tents and created the modern world that is against nature and is artificial and men of the past 4 or 5 generations let them. So its over. The end times happened and we are simply in hell. Having to sit in an office and stare at a computer rather than work the land proves we are in hell. And women did the devil’s work in forcing men to bring this about.

    I fail to see how lack of tents caused any of these issues. Sitting in an office being less exercise being part of obesity issues which probably cause most of the attraction issues perhaps.

    The decline of every culture/civilization when it gets to excess is the norm and this is no exception.

    The key is discipleship with men and women who are willing. It’s always been that way.

  4. @ Oscar

    So, attraction is a lubricant. It reduces friction. The jokes write themselves! I dig it, brother!

    Yup, haha.

    The untrusting woman is foolish. It may not be her fault, she may be that way because of abuse, but you’re not obligated to take that on.

    Correct. Single men be wary of red flags.

    Though if you’re married to one you should be praying a lot as well as trying to build trust and eliminate triggers of distrust. God can heal but He usually works through us.

  5. Sharkly says:

    TRUST leads to a woman more naturally following Biblical female marital roles and responsibilities

    And if “trust” and “faith” are synonyms, and husbands image Christ and wives image the church. And we’ve already been told that:

    Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

    1 Peter 3:5 For in this manner in olden times the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands,

    Then, the Bible clearly tells us that you can’t please God if you don’t trust Him. And the husband is in the role of Christ as head over the wife, so naturally if even God can’t be pleased without faith, pleasing a husband whom you refuse to trust, is also not likely to happen. And the Bible also tells us that wives who trust God, subject themselves unto their husbands. So, for a wife, trusting and obeying God, and trusting and obeying their husband, naturally goes together. Therefore, if a wife refuses to trust and obey her husband when she ought to, it is probably because she also refuses to have the necessary faith to please God.

    Once you’ve discovered some new bit of truth, usually the next step is that you find out it was already in the Bible.

  6. @ Sharkly

    And if “trust” and “faith” are synonyms, and husbands image Christ and wives image the church. And we’ve already been told that:

    Yes, faith is defined as a trust in God and His promises.

    Then, the Bible clearly tells us that you can’t please God if you don’t trust Him. And the husband is in the role of Christ as head over the wife, so naturally if even God can’t be pleased without faith, pleasing a husband whom you refuse to trust, is also not likely to happen. And the Bible also tells us that wives who trust God, subject themselves unto their husbands. So, for a wife, trusting and obeying God, and trusting and obeying their husband, naturally goes together. Therefore, if a wife refuses to trust and obey her husband when she ought to, it is probably because she also refuses to have the necessary faith to please God.

    Once you’ve discovered some new bit of truth, usually the next step is that you find out it was already in the Bible.

    Agreed. Good analysis.

  7. Rock Kitaro says:

    “but rather a woman who is getting most stuff right and is willing to follow the man and is teachable.”

    This has been the most irksome thing I’ve come to terms with when it comes to reading the past essays and posts this month. I’ve been holding back, because I don’t want to sound insulting or sound defeatist in my tone…but as much as I’ve read your words of “men shouldn’t be looking a unicorn…” I’m of the opinion that finding a Millennial woman who’s willing to follow the man and is teachable IS akin to looking for a unicorn.

    Seriously, I’ve heard that suggestion from several individuals this year, and no offense, but they were all of the older generation. I’d love to find a woman who at least had a Christian foundation…even if she didn’t have a Christian foundation, but if she was just open to being taught and learning…I’d love that.

    But that’s not the kind of woman our modern culture is producing. It seems that unless the person is popular (by worldly standards) or if she’s already attracted to him/her to the point that she’s willing to compromise her own ideology (like feminism)…most ladies of my generation are taught not to lead, to never depend on no man, that they can do anything a man can do, etc etc.

    Thus, if you aren’t already aligned to her worldview, if you’re not willing to follow what she believes and accept her way of thinking…we’re not going to fare well. She’s likely to perceive all attempts to teach her as “condescending, patronizing, and trying to change her”.

    Also…and this is my fault, but I don’t have the stomach or the patience for it. I can have conversations with ladies and talk out our differences like I did with the elderly woman from my gym a couple of weeks ago. But the younger ladies of my generation are insufferable when it comes to debates that they’re clearly losing. It’s not just the deflection, cutting you off, and S.I.G.N. language…it’s the competitive/combative attitude that gradually depletes the attraction I once had for her.

    I’m not saying a teachable lady doesn’t exist. But unless she really really wants me, or she’s young enough to be open to the fact that she doesn’t know everything, she’s not going to let me teach her ish. And even if I do penetrate her defiance, my logic marinades, and she starts to acknowledge to herself that I’m right, I’m probably already gone by that point.

  8. @ Rock

    But that’s not the kind of woman our modern culture is producing. It seems that unless the person is popular (by worldly standards) or if she’s already attracted to him/her to the point that she’s willing to compromise her own ideology (like feminism)…most ladies of my generation are taught not to lead, to never depend on no man, that they can do anything a man can do, etc etc.

    Thus, if you aren’t already aligned to her worldview, if you’re not willing to follow what she believes and accept her way of thinking…we’re not going to fare well. She’s likely to perceive all attempts to teach her as “condescending, patronizing, and trying to change her”.

    I suppose this depends heavily on where you’re looking for women.

    When I was dating there were a solid amount of prospects going to several non-denominational Church young adult groups for the most part. Yeah, there is some feminist infiltration, but that’s part of the sanctification process. Most of the women I encountered at least were looking for men to lead the family and that’s already a plus there.

    Also…and this is my fault, but I don’t have the stomach or the patience for it. I can have conversations with ladies and talk out our differences like I did with the elderly woman from my gym a couple of weeks ago. But the younger ladies of my generation are insufferable when it comes to debates that they’re clearly losing. It’s not just the deflection, cutting you off, and S.I.G.N. language…it’s the competitive/combative attitude that gradually depletes the attraction I once had for her.

    I’m not saying a teachable lady doesn’t exist. But unless she really really wants me, or she’s young enough to be open to the fact that she doesn’t know everything, she’s not going to let me teach her ish. And even if I do penetrate her defiance, my logic marinades, and she starts to acknowledge to herself that I’m right, I’m probably already gone by that point.

    This is a whole other issue.

    How many times have you tried in the past several years?

    Have you changed your scenery or pool of prospects if you’re getting bad batches?

    If you’re not willing to do it because you don’t have the patience then there’s not really anything that can help that. If you’ve truly given up then just focus on serving God wholeheartedly without distractions and try to be as content as possible

  9. Oscar says:

    @ Rock

    that’s not the kind of woman our modern culture is producing.

    I’ll second DS. I moved my family to find a healthier Christian culture for my kids. I read about all the trouble young men have today, and that was the best way I could think of to help my kids with those problems.

    You may need to do something similar.

    I wish there was more I could do to help you, but please don’t think we old guys lack empathy, or compassion for you. We grew up with very little guidance (often false guidance), so we’re still trying to figure things out ourselves, more so for our children’s sakes.

    Lastly, I hope you’re encouraged to hear that your comments are frequently encouraging, or even inspiring to others. Keep up the good work.

  10. Jack says:

    I don’t fully agree that any two Christians can have a godly marriage”. I agree with it in principle, as long as they are both mature, self-controlled, and obedient to the requirements of God’s order. But in reality, people are not this way, and certain other things are necessary for them to grow to the point where they can be like that. These things are highly dependent on the individuals, but in general, they include things like a good personality fit, shared values, shared goals in life, and of course heart-trust as has been pointed out. My point is that a man can’t just pick out any Christian woman thinking that all will be well. Selection matters. But for couples who are already married, the decision has already been made. So yes, they should subscribe to what you have written in the OP.

  11. @ Jack

    I don’t fully agree that “any two Christians can have a godly marriage”. I agree with it in principle, as long as they are both mature, self-controlled, and obedient to the requirements of God’s order. But in reality, people are not this way, and certain other things are necessary for them to grow to the point where they can be like that. These things are highly dependent on the individuals, but in general, they include things like a good personality fit, shared values, shared goals in life, and of course heart-trust as has been pointed out. My point is that a man can’t just pick out any Christian woman thinking that all will be well. Selection matters. But for couples who are already married, the decision has already been made. So yes, they should subscribe to what you have written in the OP.

    Oh yeah this is definitely an ideal scenario.

    Generally, the reason why you vet and look for FAST and see how a woman is going to potentially follow is to select a better prospect that makes all things of these things much easier.

    No need to artificially increase the difficulty by cramming personality types that generally don’t work well together. It’s like putting more temptation in someone’s face when you don’t have to.

    Still, I think understanding the ideal scenario can give us some valuable lessons that with 100% adherence to God’s Biblical marital roles and responsibilities.

  12. Pingback: Trust, attraction, and the Biblical female marital roles of helper, submission, and respect Part 2 | Christianity and masculinity

  13. jvangeld says:

    Also…and this is my fault, but I don’t have the stomach or the patience for it. I can have conversations with ladies and talk out our differences like I did with the elderly woman from my gym a couple of weeks ago. But the younger ladies of my generation are insufferable when it comes to debates that they’re clearly losing. It’s not just the deflection, cutting you off, and S.I.G.N. language…it’s the competitive/combative attitude that gradually depletes the attraction I once had for her.

    I’m not saying a teachable lady doesn’t exist. But unless she really really wants me, or she’s young enough to be open to the fact that she doesn’t know everything, she’s not going to let me teach her ish. And even if I do penetrate her defiance, my logic marinades, and she starts to acknowledge to herself that I’m right, I’m probably already gone by that point.

    We men think that a woman should be able to have an academic discussion about submission. We think that, if we ask one, “Should a wife submit to her husband?” She will be able to respond right away with the correct answer as if it were a catechism question or an answer to a test.

    She can’t.

    Constitutionally unable.

    She can’t answer because her hindbrain instantly translates the question into: “A man who has no authority over me is asking me to submit to him right now. No! No! Eject!” All that deflection and combatitiveness is her ejection routine. Modern women have been trained to amp that routine up to ridiculous levels. But the end result is the same even with the more polite older women. They cannot understand the question because their hindbrain instantly translates it into a power play.

    For that reason, I don’t talk about submission with women who aren’t related to me. Maybe women should be able to discuss that subject with men, but they can’t. So I don’t try. There were exceptions back when I was learning about the Duluth Protocol. I assumed that some groups of my friends would oppose Duluth, so I discussed it with them. My assumption was wrong, unfortunately. But it revealed what I needed to know and I married zero women from that group.

    There are a number of ways to determine teachability without jumping to submission. In the beginning stages of a relationship, it is all about making it fun. So maybe you could say, “Hey, have you ever wondered what it would be like to be on the radio? Maybe someone will interview you someday. Here is how I warm up my voice before I go on air.” And then encourage her to try.

  14. jvangeld says:

    And, Rock, I agree that it is only if a woman really wants you that things will work out. Which is why I worked on my PSALM attributes. Desire cannot be negotiated, it is either there from the beginning or it is not.

  15. Jack says:

    Brilliant observations from jvangeld. Talking about submission with a woman is akin to negotiating submission. And like negotiating desire, it just doesn’t work. A better approach is to watch her behavior to see whether she follows, submits, and is teachable. And like jvangeld said, you have to make it fun somehow, and if either of you are too proud or if your heart is not into it, then you’ll feel like a dancing monkey.

  16. Oscar says:

    A better approach is to watch her behavior to see whether she follows, submits, and is teachable.

    You can start by looking in a church that actually teaches submission. You can even find sermons online. Once there, you can observe how the girl interacts with her father, and just as importantly, how the girl’s mother interacts with her husband, and how the girl’s dad talks about his wife. You can get to know some of the older people and ask them what they think about different families.

  17. Pingback: Placing the Marriage Structures within the Archetypical Models | Σ Frame

  18. ageyearsold says:

    Well, coming across this blog was an unexpected surprise. What a perspective. I shall read more as one drawn to the topic of a Biblical marriage or dating for that matter.

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