Dalrock did an excellent job explaining why some Christians associate with the red pill and blue pill distinction that the manosphere uses.
For posterity, I think it is useful to understand Christianity in the context of what the “red pill” is because most Christians who encounter the Christian manosphere do not understand it correctly.
What is the “red pill”
From the Matrix:
Morpheus: “This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
- You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
- You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Remember: all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”
The “red pill” itself is about seeing the Truth and how deep the rabbit hole goes in terms of worldly and even Church deception about the nature of male and female sexuality. For Christians, the God and the Bible are the Truth.
The problem is that most Christians see the secular blogs and reddits like TRP and MRP and mix up understanding observational truths about human sexuality and confuse it with prescription about what you are supposed to do.
It is a common theme throughout the secular manosphere to basically understand female sexuality and then use it to sleep with as many women as possible. Obviously, this is one particular response to understanding the truth and male and female sexuality, but it is not the only response. There are several different responses which the manosphere fractured into many different groups.
- Secular manosphere – use the observational truth to try to cultivate strategies to sleep with women
- MRAs (men’s rights activists) – use the truth to try to make laws even
- MGTOW (men going their own way) – stop trying to play the game because they’re bitter against women
- INCELs (involuntary celibates) – just give up because women don’t like them anyway or there’s no hope
- Christian manosphere – follow the Bible because God’s Truth is paramount
The problem is that most people – Christian and non-Christian – see the secular manosphere, the MRAs, the MGTOWs, and INCELs and assume that is what the “red pill” is. This is simply ignorance, but ignorance is also dangerous.
Common objections
First, one common objection to the “red pill” by Christian men who assume that other Christian men don’t need it is some semblance of the following:
Really we should be teaching and encouraging others to walk in love and have faith that everything else falls into place.
This is one of the big issues. Other common lines of thought are: ‘being a nice young man with a job’ or ‘godliness is sexy’ or ‘just be you’ or ‘love God and everything will fall into place’ as possibly told to you by many Christian parents and the Church are not things that women find attractive.
Are women generally more attracted to men that are leaders, have muscles, have good style and grooming, and status? Sure. I’ve made the point before that Christian women are often more attracted to positions with status such as pastor and worship band leader than the Church janitor or door greeter or parking lot attender.
But is it then find to go escalate and spin plates to something just short of sex? No. Is it OK to think that women are like children and should be treated as such? No. Is it OK to go all hardline on your wife and not love her unconditionally and honor her? No. There’s a lot of ‘prescription’ stuff in the secular RP that is specifically anti-Christian and sin.
Second, another blurring factor that most Christians who get involved with RP do not understand that is a large chunk of the ‘tactics of game’ work specifically on a subset of women: promiscuous women.
Acting like a douche bag will attract some women sure (even some Christian women), but probably mainly the ones with daddy issues or ones that are looking for bad boys. Yes, Christian women can be attracted to bad boys, but the ones who are wise about it will avoid them for relationships and marriage. Those are the ones you want to date and marry (the ones who are wise about avoiding bad boys), so acting that way won’t help you get to that goal.
Third, still yet another issue that often comes up is the issue of anger and bitterness. This often leads to many generalizations about ‘how all women are…’ which is not always the case. General statements are okay with certain context, but anything stated out of anger or bitterness is probably not going to be accurate or godly. This is where you see many of the secular manosphere, MRAs, MGTOWs, and INCELs stuck with a lot of resentment and bitterness against women. This is not healthy.
Fourth, most things related to ‘alpha’ are misunderstood too. Alpha is honestly an annoying topic because it’s such a buzzword but it just means behaviors or traits that are attractive to women. As said before, muscles are generally more attractive to women which will increase your pool of prospective dating candidates. Most of the men who find RP will find it because they are unsuccessful with women. Telling them to lose weight (if they are overweight or obese) or gain muscle (if they are underweight) will increase their attractiveness to the opposite sex.
Can you make being more sexually attractive into an idol? Sure. Can you make getting more attention from women an idol? You betcha. Can you look like an idiot trying to increase your ‘alpha’? Yes. That doesn’t detract from the fact that lifting does increase your pool of viable dating candidates for the most part.
Summary
For Christian men who desire a wife, the Bible is the guideline. God says that man is the head of the marriage, so to fulfill this role and responsibility he should be striving toward being a strong masculine leader, protector and provider (and also may need to work on other attractive traits if he’s having trouble getting dates). These things tend to be attractive to women, so it’s no surprise that men who strive toward this will tend to be more attractive to women.
Beyond these points, the main problem that I see is a lot of Christians are saying that “RP is bad” (which in most cases, it’s true that the prescriptive stuff is bad) but then they don’t have any advice when young men (or even women) say they need advice or want help in finding/attracting a spouse. Talking about the hard truths that appearances do matter to the opposite sex is one of the things that is always going to be controversial but needed.
This is much like the homosexuality issue that is plaguing the evangelical Church. People can’t go over how sinful it is to be homosexual or ‘RP’ so they go and preach fire and brimstone on them not realizing that most of these people have been outcasts all their life. What they really need is compassion and the gospel because they are angry and hurting. When they convert, we should be helping mentor and disciple them according to God’s Truth not continue throwing stones at them.
Do we ultimately need “the red pill”
The simple truth is that ultimately Christians do not need to associate with anything like “the red pill,” with the manosphere proper, or anything other naming conventions. Just like there is no such thing as a ‘gay’ Christian or a ‘straight’ Christian, we are not defined by our feelings and desires but following Jesus. You may be a Christian who struggles with certain temptations, but you are not defined by your temptations.
The Bible is the Truth (the ‘real’ red pill) and observing the sin nature of men and women in the world is instructive for Christians on how to avoid temptation. Christian men and women for thousands of years have not needed anything but the Bible for all walks of life including marriage.
However, much of the problem why single Christian men go to the manosphere in the first place is that the Church, friends, and family lie to them about what is attractive and/or aren’t interested in helping, discipling, or mentoring them Biblically to be successful with women and marriage.
By avoiding or eschewing these hard topics in the Church, the Church pushes men toward the secular by not providing the Christian worldview. As long as this continues to happen, Christian men will continue to seek out ways to be successful with women, even secular ones.
To me, this is a travesty. I hope I am not the only one who thinks this.
Christianity and masculinity 
DS, you are pushing the NAWALT purple pill when you say stuff like “Acting like a douche bag will attract some women sure (even some Christian women), but probably mainly the ones with daddy issues or ones that are looking for bad boys.”
All women are looking for bad boys in some sense. It’s just masculine nature that women find attractive. Men who are desired by some women are attractive to other women. Trying to virtue signal by calling desirable men “bad boys” is Blue Pill. Women like masculine men. It’s just biology. The man in the Song of Solomon is always out on the town and not with his woman. The woman in the SoS is told by “the maidens” that her lover is very attractive. They must have seen him out and about, dontchaknow?
The loving man in the SoS goes out solo, obviously. He’s a “bad boy” for using Dread, isn’t he, since “the maidens” tell his woman about how desirable he is? Yet he’s the ideal lover–strange, isn’t it? Isn’t it counterintuitive that the PUAs might be closer to the truth than even “Red Pill” Christians?
Obviously, you can’t just be a zfg kind of guy all the time…you need to calibrate your woman’s emotions and give her what she needs….I’ve written about this on my blog…drama, comfort, flirting (tingles), and validation are chiefly what a woman needs, but which of these she needs at any given time can vary and that’s where calibration comes in. Isn’t it funny that you can find all this in the SoS? It’s almost like God is Red Pill or something.
Christian manosphere – follow the Bible because God’s Truth is paramount
That’s a hot one. Where? Really…….where????
In the Christian Manosphere there is more judging, more self-righteousness, more smugness that they are on some “hot roll to eternity…….and you can be too……but you’re still not as awesome in God’s eyes as I am” attitude.
Zero teaching, only commands. Zero fellowship, only “It’s all in the Bible, really clear” and then they spend a trillion hours debating what a word means in what context, through which translation, and by which monk….and if it is from Greek, or Hebrew or whatever other cyrptic and coptic code, letter, or scribe it came from…..and at what time.
Impossible abbreviations to follow (SMV, MRA, DDT, FBI, BBC, APA, DODO, PC………), bizzaro Greek terms to classify men on levels. Red pills, blue pills, purple pills, different activist levels and more dicusssion over the psychological “nature of women” and using personality tests like the Meyers Briggs or Peterson’s new one to determine where and what you are, what you can and cannot be………..treating us all like a peg board……
and yet…..and yet……………….still telling us “Oh, it’s very clear in The Bible. Find a church, but you won’t be able to because they are run by cuckservative pastors…..find, vet, and marry an amzing Christian woman……here are my five steps. Worked for me…..but remember these women are very, very rare.” (ie…..chances are you AINT gonna get one).
“Pray with you? Ummm…..you see I’m a leader, you have to find someone with a gift of prayer. Why don’t YOU pray, because God answers prayer…….and if he doesn’t (shaking heads, disparaging remarks) it’s because somewhere you have unconfessed sin, have not studied hard enough, or just don’t really, really, really believe”
This is what the novice gets ALL THE TIME in the christian man-o-sphere…….even men like myself who “know” about the things of God and believe get really, really bummed out when trying to understand.
Everyone is told its easy. Yet………then its made VERY complex. Yeah, the Christian manosphere – follow the Bible because God’s Truth is paramount-
As if it was actually followed there
The “red pill” gang has uncovered and discussed the reality of human nature. Some of it is off base – they think that human nature evolved by sexual selection, and so they get off track. They refuse all moral judgements.
But the REAL truth about human nature is in the scriptures. The morality that God has prescribed is there as well. And human relationships will never flourish as long as they are in rebellion against God and the rules he has created for us.
Still, the Bible is not a relationship textbook. The details of understanding how to deal with sinful women are not spelled out. And the errors of our own culture are not dissected and exposed. That is the work of application that we have to do.
Daniel, you start on the right path when you say that the Bible isn’t a relationship textbook. Wisdom in the Bible is deliberately hidden (“the words of the wise, and their riddles”) and you can only access that wisdom through careful effort (” if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure”…searching for silver ore is hard, careful work and finding hidden treasure requires careful thought and often some digging). This is not to say that the Bible is useless when it comes to using it to discover wisdom about relationships…it’s just not spelled out like a textbook for a good reason…that the journey is part of the wisdom you gain. A few things in the Bible are simple, but they aren’t in the wisdom literature. Most of relationship wisdom doesn’t have to do with rules. The “red pill” gang certainly has found understanding about women that is useful for Christian men when it comes to understanding how to relate to them and really understanding that women are truly as sinful as men are. These are important truths that we need when rearing daughters.
I agree that the “red pill” gang is off base when it ascribes our current state of sexual affairs to Darwinian principles…I think that it has more to do with seeking political advantage through catering to women’s nature (feminism and socialism).
Jason, one part of the Red Pill that I have found is that women have to be trained. I got that bit of wisdom from Shakespeare’s “The Taming of the Shrew.” The lead woman character is a shrew, but in the end she educates her less-shrewish sisters in submitting to their men. AWALT. The idea that you have to train a woman is controversial, but even the most awesome and thorough vetting will still let some defects slip through and that’s where you need to do some training of a woman. You don’t need to seek a unicorn if you can train a sinful woman. But everyone else will think that you found a unicorn. [wink]
There might be some women who are untrainable, but they are few. Most men, if they gain some skill in training a woman, can do well. But learning to train a woman well takes practice and you want to get that skill to where you have unconscious competence before you marry.
theasdgamer
Training a woman.You first have to “get” a woman or women to like yoiu, date you, and see a value in you (money, looks usually on a base level). I watch Rollo. I have read countless books. I have even asked a few men “hey, you just sit here….don’t say a word and every woman comes up and talks to you? How do you do it.” The reply is usually “I don’t know”
Experts on women break down secret codes, and language that you must learn. More ways to practice….but still assume that you as a man have no problem getting dates or a woman to talk to you without a sneering look, or running to the nearest (cough) alpha in authority to tell them to you tell you to leave them alone.
And in our Christian world add ten tons more of rules, expectations, and things to consider.
Fewer and fewer men seem to be getting any dates…..even with all this information around today on the Internet……countless books, podcasts, and “conventions”
The above post made a commet about Incels. About them giving up hope……..for many (not all, but many) hope never showed up.
The CHristian man-o-sphere and the few churches that these real men attend are going to have to address another problem.
What to do, or how to use, channel, and give this growing large swath of Christian men who just never found anyone. It’s easy to take their faults and discuss what they didn’t do right when they are in their fifties……”You should have done this or that when you were 15….”
The church is quickly becoming a place where the supposed “elect” get married, a large swath of unrepentent single moms, and large grip of single men who just didn’t win the genetics game, didn’t have enough resources at 22, didn’t get jacked at age 19, and still didn’t “pander” to what all the women wanted or expected……but the “elect” somehow did without becoming a “chump”
It’s really hard to explain…….and all this gaming, taming, framing, and deep psychological / sexualsociobiology that men must master, practice and use all the time or their wife is “gonna rebell” or make you a “chump” frankly is really confusing, and I would imagine tiring. Is sex that great???????
I don’t recall chapters in the Bible explaining all of this. Some of this I am starting to see as a method of control and heirachy to keep the 80/20 running full swing….for the elect
The difficult thing is, though, the Church was historically not in the business of teaching people how to attract mates. For most of the history of the Church, the mate selection process didn’t work like it does today, where the individuals fully independently select their mates as adults in their late 20s or older based on who attracts them the most among a suitable set, so what people are dealing with now is not something that the Church has historically had on its agenda for teaching people “how to”. There were, of course, teachings on marriage and “how to” relate once one was married to a spouse, but not very much on selecting/attracting a spouse because this entire process is relatively new in the overall history of the Church — really less than a century. Prior to this, families were greatly involved in mate selection/confirmation, and basically families policed the process — the Church wasn’t micromanaging that process apart from laying down rules on who could marry and who could not. So you’re kind of asking/expecting the Church to do something that historically it has never had to do, and with which it therefore has very little experience as an institution — again, this was handled by families as an internal matter, for the most part, until the last 100-150 years (and even during most of the last 100 years families were much more involved than they are now — the current process of families being mostly uninvolved is quite new). It’s therefore quite a big “ask”, and one which the Church per se is rather ill equipped to satisfy, I think.
Would you please stop framing homosexuals as being victims. They know what they do is perverted.
How about you feel sorry for those who have gotten aids through blood transfusions with blood taken from homosexuals and those who feel uncomfortable around them but are forced to put up with it.
And in our Christian world
you have pointed out the problem…avoid the churchian world
…as regards incels, most of them never learned how to be a man…in fact, most of them were spoon fed feminist propaganda aimed at turning them into manginas…
…so maybe it’s time to start a local ministry teaching young men how to be a man…helping them to dump all that feminist propaganda…helping young men realize that traditional masculinity is something to be celebrated, not shunned…and we find lots of examples of traditional masculinity in the Old Testament…in the Song of Solomon…
…and you can teach young men about women in a non-judgmental way and a way that celebrates femininity without making excuses for women riding the cock carousel…
…teaching men how to train women…again, this is from a verrrry old source–William Shakespeare…and you can find it in places like the Song of Songs, but you have to dig it out…
…so if all this stuff that men have needed is in the Bible, and it is sorely needed in today’s culture, one wonders what the church is doing these days?
I don’t recall chapters in the Bible explaining all of this.
I have a few posts about game that I found in the Song of Solomon. It’s not taught like an academic course–you have to dig it out, just like with any wisdom literature.
I’m not gonna lie to you. At first, learning relationship is hard. Like any new skill, you have to go through the steps to where it becomes easy…unconscious incompetence…conscious incompetence…conscious competence…unconscious competence (where it becomes easy). But there are lots of examples of success over on Rollo’s blog and I expect that DS likewise has achieved unconscious competence at relationships.
@ asdgamer
You’re falling into a classic trap here. I agree masculine men are attractive.
The problem is that most masculine men nowadays are immoral. Most women like masculine men so many of them will go for the immoral ones because there is a lack of supply of moral masculine men. This is why many Christian women try to missionary date.
Moral masculine men do not need to act like douche bags to be attractive to women.
Also, you’re confusing what “AWALT” (all women are like that) and “NAWALT” (not all women are like that) mean in the context of behavior. Virgin women divorce at much lower rates than promiscuous women. This a true case of “not all women are like that.”
AWALT is something that is universally true such as that fact that women are hypergamous or like masculine men. Promiscuous women act differently than virgins, and thus we can say that behaviors that promiscuous women exhibit are not necessarily be AWALT.
@ seventiesjason
You do know that probably half or possibly more of the commenters on Dalrock’s blog are not Christian. You’re starting to sound like the feminists who come around the blog and accuse Dalrock of being unChristian and mean to women when he does nothing of the sort.
For the most part, when I read Dalrock’s blog, the few men who are actually Christian who try to help you are Dalrock, Cane, Nova, deti, and a few others. None of these people promise any “magic bullet” unlike most of the other commenters. These people say to follow the Bible and work on learning to lead in relationships and also social skills and attractiveness if needed.
The rest of your post reads like a straw man so I’ll just stop there.
@ Daniel
Debatable.
The Bible relays structures for marriage/relationships and principles with which to live by. This gives us considerable freedom in Christ to run our relationships or marriages.
However, a lot of Christians still like being told what to do, and that’s fine. That’s why good mentorship and discipleship is needed to help people who more easily get inundated by culture or want more of a guide about how to act.
@ Nova
Good point.
I think overall the Church has done a bad job of discipleship and mentorship too (from what I’ve seen at least) where a man could ask these types of questions from a father figure. Yeah, maybe he wasn’t being mentored or discipled for that particular purpose, but there was wisdom to impart about relationships and marriage if he wanted to ask about it.
We’re also at a point in the culture where close to the majority of families have ejected their father (out of wedlock. frivorce, etc.) out of the home and he was one of the men who imparted knowledge about women to their sons.
@ AngloSaxon
Or you know, we could just look at how the Bible tells us to minister to these populations. No, they’re not victims, but they are sinners in need of a Savior.
Unbelievers need the gospel. After they accept the gospel, we are to help them take off the old and put on the new. The Church is often backwards on this trying to impress Christian morality onto unbelievers.
Like all “alpaha” Christians…….can’t answer a question, or don’t want to “straw man” is used, and comparing me to a feminist……
Are you an Incel? No? Then you have zero clue what its like in this world espcially in the church to go through the motions and feel worse after a service or meeting…….and then having to hear over and over about a man like me sits at home all day, uses porn, plays video games and isn’t employed. The funny thing is, the chuch applauds and then I notice…….all the single men in my former church, and the large mega-church I attended for mens fellowship…………….were employed.Were working. Some degreed. Some not. Some were striving to comform to Christ, many just wanted to have a friends and were actually trying to get this “incel” label off them.
You guys won’t allow it.
This is why “average guys” are frankly tired of church, are leaving, are trying to find some social and authentic context to serve……..I don’t like incels myself, even though I fall into their camp by default I don’t see church offering a viable alternative in terms of community, or fellowship
You are going to have a church soon enough full of “amazing leaders” and no one left to do the ground and grunt work (that you all take credit for anyways).
Before striking the match at a strawman. Look at yourself a little deeper and pray a little more than a few minutes before bed
Nova…..
Was the church “equipped’ to handle its early persecution…….not just by the Jews……but by pagans all over the known world as it spread?
I was reading about in Asia (Turkey) in the second century….early Christians could not even sell at marketplaces because they had to “tithe” or “throw incense on the fire” for the particular diety or to ceasar……..many couldn’t find work. Many had lived wicked lives and were on the lam. Many were just outcasts, and many just had nowhere else to turn except to Christ. They were shunned, many were persecuted.
Beaten by rods……have any of you ever seen this? I have in India. It’s not pleasant. Usually you are bruised so bad, and in many cases you will walk with a severe limp for the rest of your life…..to show the village that you are a thief, adulterer, gay, not trustworthy, or a heathen of sorts.
Yet these early Christians…..99% who had no name. Men who just believed, broke bread, led their homes, relied on each other and endured and held fast to His promise of eternity.
Today? You gotta sit through long talks about complexities of female sexual-sociobiology, debate words in the Bible, have looks, have status, be connected, have more skills than others, be able to exhort, debate and use contectual language and be able to go on and on about what is wrong today and then claim a crown for “exposing the truth” to the erst of the plebians.
Was the church ever really equipped for anything??????????
It was dedicated men, and most of which were unsung, forgotten, and just hopelessly average who stood firm. Today? You have to have some advanced theological retort for anything and know Greek…..they didn’t even have Bibles in the second century! How was the church “equipped” there to handle a very dangerous and very brutal world?
It wasn’t. It was by conviction, faith, trust, prayer and most of all a confidence in Christ. Something very few men have the time for today………and from what I have noticed really don’t want anyone else around. I feel like a prophet (no I am not one) where I am so alone, lost, and watching a dying world……and the fellowship I would at LEAST want is given in very high IQ language and charts, and words………..
Most men are not like you guys who are geniuses compared to me and other men. Yet, you claim this “love” and “brotherhood” but yet you don’t really want it unless they smell, like, look like and agree like, and have more to offer.
Hence a dying church. That is something it is not equipped for.
@ seventiesjason
This is exactly what I mean.
When have I ever called myself an ‘alpha’ for having a girlfriend and subsequently a wife? Your words not mine.
In fact, as I mentioned in the post above I hate the label ‘alpha’ because it’s nebulous and doesn’t convey any relevant meaning in a good way.
When have I ever not answered any questions to those who actually are asking for help? If men are asking for help, I offer to help them. In fact, this whole blog was started to help Christian men.
Like deti has said before, if you have the stats (height, weight, muscles) that is a good start. But if you still aren’t getting dates, then there’s going to be something off in how you present yourself. Maybe it’s social awkwardness. Maybe it’s being too fidgety. Maybe you’re not great at eye contact. Maybe you’re not great at humor or making solid emotional connections. Maybe you also need some good grooming and style to help a bit more too. Who knows. I don’t know you in person.
As I have said, I am always willing to help, but you actually have to want to do it and not complain about it. Women, like men, don’t want to be around bitterness and complaining.
you’re not gettin’ it…..you take my disagreements as bitterness and complaining……..I do nothing, well…I’m not trying, I try and continue to fail…….and it’s I’m bitter……..there are tons of men in this swath and situation, and I sadly cannot communicate in a way to make you and others understand. I’ll let it go. This is making me more upset, or annoyed……and thus makes it easier to just do nothing. Thanks.
@ seventiesjason
You’re under the wrong impression here. I do not take disagreement as bitterness and complaining.
Example: If I suggest to a man that he should workout to gain muscle, groom well, find clothes for his style or ask someone with style to help him, and it will usually help him get dates. If he doesn’t get dates from this, the problem is not necessarily that it didn’t “work,” but there could be other factors involved such as social skills, awkwardness, and other things that need to be worked on. In fact, it might have helped in objective attractiveness, but since there were no tangible results it seems like it might not have helped.
It’s a process. For someone who is say a “2” or “3”, it’s not just one small change you need to make to be more attractive and get dates. It takes a lot of work on not just physical attractiveness but also likely on things such as social and emotional as well in many cases.
Secondly, my main critique of disagreement and bitterness is aimed at the hyperbole in your posts here. Like I’ve said in the other comments, I am always willing to answer questions. I don’t call myself ‘alpha’ or think I know everything.
Each time you use hyperbole like that, any commenter who looks at you responding that way is going to come to the same conclusion I do. You’re not making coherent arguments or trying to learn but are instead whining and bitter about things.
For example, it’s one thing to say: “I tried this and that…. it’s not working so far. Is there anything else that can help?”
It’s another thing to say, and I quote:
If you can’t see the difference between how you are coming off with comments like the above and asking for help then I don’t know what to tell you.
Nobody knows what to tell me.
@DS
Like deti has said before, if you have the stats (height, weight, muscles) that is a good start. But if you still aren’t getting dates, then there’s going to be something off in how you present yourself. Maybe it’s social awkwardness. Maybe it’s being too fidgety. Maybe you’re not great at eye contact. Maybe you’re not great at humor or making solid emotional connections. Maybe you also need some good grooming and style to help a bit more too.
Great comment. I’ve been married over 35 years and I’ve been diagnosed as autistic. I have lots of other strikes against me. I am sometimes socially awkward when I miss social signals. Stats? Fat, bald, and old, lol. I do have some strength, which shows in how I carry myself. Humor? I have a little conscious competence at humor. Emotional connections? Lol, I have to make myself do that. It’s unnatural, lol. I rock sometimes, a little…back and forth…stimming…it gets awkward sometimes when I start blathering about a favorite topic when I’m at a bar. Autism. I had some looks when I was younger, but not movie star quality, unless you count Tim Allen, lol
But girls still seem to like me anyway. Pretty girls. Young girls. I met a pretty bartender recently. We exchanged names and she reached out her hand to shake mine and asked when she’d see me again. (She had an unusual name and I noticed it and it’s probably a source of emotional sensitivity for her and she kind of liked that interaction and she liked being on the defensive.) Girls ask me to dance. Flirt with me. Ask my name. Ask if I’m a regular. Compliment me on my dancing. Ask me to teach them to dance. Why am I special? I’m not. I just get out there and interact with people. Really, it’s just elementary social skills and having some testosterone. Lifting can help you increase your T-level if it’s low.
What do girls like about me? I amuse myself with people. I try to be engaging, at least superficially. I’ll go up and introduce myself to people. I’ll look for people who are having fun and I do well in that sort of context because I tend to mirror people’s energy and mode of communication–it’s an autistic work-around. Causes me awkwardness if I run into gay men, lol. I also enforce my boundaries, which is essential as a man. I’ve learned to do it with humor and be fun when I enforce my boundaries. For example, I may agree and amplify a teasing barb in order to show that I wasn’t offended. Girls don’t like men whom they can walk all over. A man has to enforce his boundaries, although he doesn’t need to be harsh about it.
Did I say that I’m autistic? Lol, yet with all my faults, girls still seem to like me. I was shy around girls I liked, but generally I’m not, and that’s a big help. So you get out and do improv and develop some conversational skills. Ask older men for help (or younger men who might be willing to help you who have some skills). Get a mentor who will help you with conversation. Your shyness will vanish. Go learn ballroom dancing and get in the habit of asking every girl to dance, no matter how old or ugly. (or pretty or young) And try to get every girl to laugh and giggle when you dance with her. And when you chat with her.
One thing that I do notice is when girls indicate interest in me. It’s essential for men to be able to know when girls are showing interest in them and not to discount it as girls “being nice.” Otoh, you have to be able to recognize when a girl is friendzoning you and get her out of your life. Just walk away and discount any emotional investment in her.
So, no matter your deficits, you work to improve yourself as a man and you can get girls interested in you.
“Go learn ballroom dancing and get in the habit of asking every girl to dance, no matter how old or ugly. (or pretty or young) And try to get every girl to laugh and giggle when you dance with her. And when you chat with her”
I can dance. Very well. Northern Soul sixties steps with ease……including standards of watusi, jump back, fly, four pointer, mash potato (and gravy). Hard soul of popcorn a la Curtis Mayfield and James Brown. I have been to all nighters and I am one of the better dancers out on the floor. Even the brothers have said countless times……”Yo (high five), can you help me with that? You cutting the rug old skool, and you’re really solid.” I also can tap pretty well too.
Been dancing for a few decades. I learned by my mother when I was in high school (1980’s)….there was sixties dance one night, and she taught me a few basic steps. It’s great exercise, and the music is so pure. Solid fresh beats, great lyrics and class from an era when it was fast vanishing…..Motown, Stax, Chess, Okeah…..sets me free. I even got better when I dropped the cocaine a decade and a half ago. Much better.
Ballroom. I’m guilty. Took a few classes in the late 1990’s. It didn’t work. I would go to lessons, and ask every woman there to be a partner for class……..they would rather dance with each other. There were two or three men that the twenty women wanted to dance with. Usually there were eight to ten guys always sitting waiting for the instructor to take a turn with them to help teach…..and ten women in pairs dancing with each other.
With soul dancing, and most sixties styles, it was okay to not have a partner. I was getting bummed about never having a partner during a slower number. I quit asking women to dance with me when it was starting to “bother” me that they always said no. I wasn’t and couldn’t let that ruin my otherwise awesome night of fun.
Danicns’ already as Smokey would say……but a way to meet women? Yeah, maybe.
Jason, go to dance classes where the instructor rotates partners so that everyone has a chance to dance with all the opposite sex (except for couples who don’t want to rotate). Your instructor was a joke.
When you went to ballroom class, the two or three men whom all the women wanted to dance with were probably advanced and intermediate dancers.
It’s true that men who are beginner dancers will get fewer dances at first than more advanced dancers. I still get refusals and I’m considered a good dancer. It’s part of the territory of being a man. One time, I went down the line and asked fifteen girls to dance and they all refused. All within a minute or so. I persisted. The sixteenth girl wanted to dance and she was the prettiest one of all. Her question to me was, “Do you always get this many rejections?” (This was what PUAs call a “shit test” where a girl is seriously considering mating with you.) I laughed and replied, “Tough crowd.” (My reply showed a sense of humor and the strength of my inner frame.) She laughed and showed more interest.
There have been a few times when there weren’t many girls to dance with and I’ve left early, but not too often.
You need to have a strong frame to lead in ballroom and salsa and swing (lead-follow dancing styles). Dance shows your “inner game”–your frame. Girls pay attention to the strength of a man’s frame. I used to practice dancing at home by myself so that my frame would get stronger. It not only was good exercise, but my frame got stronger and I got fewer refusals and more compliments on my leading.
You want to do a lead-follow dance rather than freestyle. You can’t show a strong frame in freestyle. Lead-follow dances are necessarily close enough to carry on a conversation. It’s not about the fancy footwork, but about your frame strength and carrying on a conversation. I still don’t talk with dance partners a lot of the time when the dance floor is crowded and I have to watch out for the traffic on the dance floor as I’m doing patterns and weaving in and out of traffic. Girls whom I dance with still giggle and laugh and squeal when I turn them and all the other girls see the girls I’m dancing with having fun. And dance itself is a kind of conversation.
Nowadays I can dance just with girls I know and still dance with fifteen or twenty girls in an evening. But I still always approach girls I don’t know to keep the habit. And I often don’t recognize girls who aren’t regulars but whom I’ve danced with in the past. And I instruct girls how to dance on the dance floor if they don’t know how to dance.
You don’t need to open a Bible to know that homosexuality is very bad. Freddie Mercury died at 55 of aids he got from sleeping with men whilst his straight band members are all alive and have families.
I’ve also got no idea how you can claim they have been outcasts their entire lives when women adore homosexuals and love to keep them around them as their pets.
seventiesjason,
“Zero fellowship, only ….. ”
You are exaggerating with this. I prayed for you this morning. I pray for you on a regular basis. Over at Dalrock’s I have given you words of encouragement. DS has given you words of hope and encouragement here.
Bee…..you don’t have to lie and virtue signal to make yourself look like a real Christian. I am a man of deep prayer. I am usually on my knees when all of you are asleep. More than a few times over the years I was probably still on my kness when you all got up in the morning, kissed your wife, had adventures with respected wife / children…..Prayer has probably been the one thing for the past few years that has prevented me from taking my own life by this point. I usually know when people or someone is praying for me…….not always……but I have felt it at times of deeper awareness.
theasdgamer above in his reply to me about danicng…..not that I agree with all of it, nor do I understand “frame” because there are a trillion definitions about it now and what works for one, never works for me…………and the whole “sh*t test” thing. When a woman does that, it doesn’t mean she views you as a potential “mate” or wants to “mate” with you. Sounds like a Darwin or David Attenborough Nature TV special……..it means 99% of the time “get the freak away from me” and when I have used humor in these “tests” out comes the deacon, the elder, the pastor, my boss, the bouncer telling me to “quit being a douche / harassing / bothering / creeping her out / talking to her” responses. Real life PUA behavior for the ugly and unattractive lands them in HR offices.
Other than that Bee, his reply was probably the “best” advice I was given on a forum like this. I say this whole heartedly and with humility.
Many of you Darlock sychophants will defend the actions and behaviors of a non-Christian over a fellow believer, and the believers don’t encourage, they throw scripture up, and make a fellow brother foolish and exposed to torement. Jr. High all over again, and another reason why “tons of men” want nothing to do with the likes of us out in the world.
I am not exaggerating……and as for DS’s advice? I’m bitter. Far from encouraging…..but that’s my fault expecting to find this on any Christian man-o-sphere page or blog. That’s on me. My bad.
Anglo, homosexuals are treated with kid gloves in the church. They are allowed to serve, lead, and be involved over single, never married “chumps” in the church……and even work with children over a man like me……..the church “wouldn’t want to be hateful” to anyone now would they????
SIngle Christian men are the scop-off in church culture today. If they just manned up, asked women out, bathed, quit watching porn, got real jobs, stepped up everything would be okay……..oh, and somehow changed their genetics to be better looking
out comes the deacon, the elder, the pastor, my boss, the bouncer telling me to “quit being a douche / harassing / bothering / creeping her out
Context. Don’t do things you would do in a bar in church. This shows a lack of social awareness. Good looking, masculine men typically develop social awareness earlier than others and that’s what gives them an edge. This doesn’t mean that fat, short, ugly, bald men with autism can’t develop social awareness if they work on it.
You have not because you ask not. This doesn’t apply only to asking God. Find a real life mentor to help you with social awareness. If you don’t do this, the fault is yours.
How old are you?
and somehow changed their genetics to be better looking
This is your problem. You think that girls think like men. You’re an equalitarian, like most men at Dalrock’s blog.
I’m elderly, fat, bald, and not wealthy. Yet a lovely girlfriend of a young, handsome bodybuilder dumped him and chased me. So, yes, bad looks will keep girls uninterested in you, totally, like.
Note to Sheldon: The last sentence was sarcasm.
seventiesjason,
“Bee…..you don’t have to lie and virtue signal to make yourself look like a real Christian.”
I am not lying. I actually prayed for you this morning. You are on my prayer schedule.
Show us any proof you have that I did not pray for you this morning.
seventiesjason & Everyone,
I pray for seventiesjason and he falsely accuses me of lying.
So, is seventiesjason really a troll account? Matt Forney, are you trolling us as seventiesjason? Someone else trolling us?
So, is seventiesjason really a troll account?
Jason is a real man, and a fairly accomplished one at that.
He has worn the uniform of a Salvation Army soldier and worked down the back alleys trying to help, face to face, the kind of men others might try to avoid. He has physically cleaned up those same back alleys and served the people of his community with little to no thanks.
He has lived and worked overseas, reconnected with his estranged father and shared the Gospel with him, bounced back from a drug addiction, operated a well written blog for a time, successfully managed an office building, secured a couple of patents – I can’t remember it all.
He’s just pissed at the way things are, like a lot of us, and is still working through the anger stage. He finds it hard to let other men be FOR him right now, though many in the sphere kind of like him and want him to win.
asdgamer
I am 49 years old. The last date I had was with a woman half my age, met her at a ska-reggae show in Petaluma. She found out I was a Christian, dropped me, shamed me on social media…..and it was the first “date” I had since Clinton was president.
I lost my father in September to congestive heart failure, he was 83. Died in his sleep at home in his favorite chair, open book on his lap. The old Pole finally got to be with mom. I wasn’t sad because we had patched up years ago. I was happy for him. The last I spoke with him, a week before he told me that never in a million years he thought he would actually really “like me” and he said “WIsh we had this when we were both younger son, but I am so glad for what we have now, and have had for the past six years or so!”
(we had a strained relationship all through the end of high school, college, grad school, career……..)
I have an older brother with Downs Syndrome. He’s was in a well run group home in Saratoga Springs, NY for decades but has been in decline since September, he’s been moved to a nursing facility. He doesn’t have much longer.
@ seventiesjason
What Christians on Dalrock’s blog actually did this?
You’ll probably find that if you keep throwing advice back in the face of people trying to help you that you’re not going to have many people willing to help you.
Despite your constant digs at me, I’ve still made suggestions to help. As I said earlier:
“Like deti has said before, if you have the stats (height, weight, muscles) that is a good start. But if you still aren’t getting dates, then there’s going to be something off in how you present yourself. Maybe it’s social awkwardness. Maybe it’s being too fidgety. Maybe you’re not great at eye contact. Maybe you’re not great at humor or making solid emotional connections. Maybe you also need some good grooming and style to help a bit more too. Who knows. I don’t know you in person.”
There’s lots of things to work on. Learning how to flirt and tease women is another one of these things that can help a lot.
If you want details about how to work on these, just ask.
It’s easier to see things in person, so maybe you need to talk to some trusted male friends about some particular areas to work on.
Jason, you’re still a young pup. Unless you are sharing the gospel, no reason to tell anyone that you’re a Christian. Let girls be the first to say that they’re Christians. No sense casting pearls….
If a girl goes to the trouble to “shame” you on social media, then she isn’t indifferent towards you…indifference shows a lack of chemistry, but a girl paying negative attention to you on social media is something you can work with. Agree and amplify…mock gently, etc. Show that her “shaming” is water off of a duck’s back…”Shit, you’re so bratty like my kid sister…I feel so bad now, guess I’ll go eat worms or slit my wrist or eat a ton of ice cream! XD”
Glad you patched things up with your father. Sorry to hear about your brother.
Bee….”show me proof” yeah…..show me “proof” that you did.
And I am accused of being immature………………
Okay. You did. You prayed for me. Everyone is praying for me and I’m still given an ol “pat on the back” like a good dog, expected to just learn a trillion skills, get a Phd in rhetoric so I can understand Rollo, and metrics concerning my life and women….while everyone else just has them “walk up to them” or has zero problem in dating, and never did…..sure vetting a wife might have been a challenge….but they had plenty of options before that time came. When all of you were in high school getting that first kiss, or some petting in I was home taking care of a very sick older brother, and my parents expected nothing less from me.
I’m still expected to be set apart and “Holy” while everyone else talks down to me, and be devout and “save myself” for “the most amazing Christian gal” while most didn’t have to do that….cause you know……they are just amazing……and God “forgave” them and rewarded them with an amazing wife n’ life.
Now I am def middle aged……the boat left, moorings cut and I am still told n’ sold in church that I have to “step up” and be a “real man” while no one else did…….no bolts of lightening struck anyone down for their sloppy behavior in their youth……me???? Oh, you have “consequences of sin”
So Bee…..pray away. I believe you. I need a lot of it to deal with Christians that are more “educated” than me, more articulate and just more accepted.
adsgamer…..
I serve Jesus Christ, and I am not ashamed. Any woman that I ended up have a date with would be told when out with her that I am a practicing Christian. No negotiation there.
I don’t have FB, or Instagram or Twitter……it was brought to my attention through a co-worker. I looked…….yeah, rough stuff. Any woman who would do that doesn’t deserve my time, but I am sure plenty of guys would have no problem being dragged through the mud on such an issue and “beg” for more by responding to that…..even with “cocky funny” behavior. This doesn’t mean she likes you. When a woman would do that, it’s being mean. I still don’t understand why so many men who claim to be great with women would subject themselves to responding to that by putting her on a pedestal and trying to prove he’s none of that…..Thanks about my pop btw……..
DS
I don’t have any friends. I just moved up here seven months ago. I had some church friends in Fresno. Their advice was “It’s God’s timing” and “there is nothing wrong with you” and “just trust God, he has an amazing plan for your life”
They were kind enough, my age….but a bit naive when it came to matters of worldly living. All fo them pretty much met their wives when they were between 18-20. Aside from church stuff, I never hung out with them. I asked an older man in church to help me on a few things and he just said “God’s timing is perfect, look, there is nothing wrong with you. You just have to wait.”
He mentioned something once that maybe I was made an eunuch for “the kingdoms sake” and I should rejoice in that.
The worldly men I did associate with on and off while spending a decade in Fresno liked my Christian stance, they never judged me for that…..but their advice was “just go up and talk to women, numbers game……eventually you’ll just find one” Well meaning I suppose, but again…..all these men were married, divorced….dating again, and / or co-habitating. None of them of course knew any single women……nor their girlfriends, wives knew any single women….all their female friends were “dating really, really amazing guys”
Yeah…….so there it is. I apologize for any of the digs….I thank you for not taking them too personally. If you would like apologies for specifics. Please ask.
Christians on Dalrock that said these things? Scroll around. The Christian Man-o-sphere so to speak is a private club.
LP. I am a still a property manager for a very high end and large office building and complex here in Santa Rosa. It’s the tallest building in the city. Job is going well. It’s very beautiful up here (wine country) and it’s a more high-end part of the State of California for sure. The city is big, but not Fresno big…….the downtown is bustling and quaint. I went camping in the state park in October where Lucas filmed that “ewoks” scene “moon of endor” setting. The redwood forest up here is something to behold for sure.
The scene in town is that very “north san francisco bay” thing. Tons of musicians and quasi-famous people live up here. Maria Maldur “Midnight at the oasis” singer. Grace Slick from The Jefferson Airplane still has a big place here. Singer Tom Waits. That 1960’s pop band “The Association” was from here and a few members still have homes here.
It is also was the home of Charles Schulz. He moved here in 1960 until his death. The “Peanuts” museum is here, and its’ actually a really cool place to wander around and ice skate at. Thanks for looking out.
@jason
I serve Jesus Christ, and I am not ashamed.
Ditto.
Any woman that I ended up have a date with would be told when out with her that I am a practicing Christian.
I don’t understand why it’s a woman’s business to know that on the first date. You lost me on that one.
Christians have a rep for being prudish, prissy, priggish, and self-righteous. Saying that you’re a Christian automatically tars you with this awful brush. Do you really want to start out in a deep hole? You better have some awfully good social skills to overcome that deficit. And you really are giving her some false information based on how a woman would take your declaration. If the subject arises in the natural course of conversation, then you deal with it.
No negotiation there.
Okeedokee
Any woman who would do that doesn’t deserve my time
See, you’re seeing her like she is a man and judging her as if she were a man. But girls aren’t men. You’re falling into the equalist trap. You think that women should be treated and judged as if they were men. The woman is actually testing you, and properly so. You are failing the test. You fundamentally don’t understand women. But you do have upside for self-improvement. You need to be able to take any barb like it’s water off a duck’s back. That shows inner strength. “Zero Fucks Given” is a very masculine attitude. In a relationship, you have to be the mighty, unyielding, unfazed oak to a woman’s emotional storms. There’s a reason that the male lover in the Song of Solomon is celebrated for his strength. Women find that to be very attractive. Conversely, men who pitch fits over trifles are viewed as weaklings.
And Proverbs celebrates a man’s self-control:
“He who is slow to anger, is better than the mighty,
And he who rules his spirit, than he who conquers a city.”
This is how I won my wife.
Testing me? and “properly so”?
She was insulting. Vulgar and nasty in her post, and pic she had of me that she posted. I gave her “zero interest” (and your foul language isn’t what I would call praticulary Christ-like) to that bad behavior of hers.
Also…….so lets say I “never” mention I am Christian, and by some act-of-God I meet a gal, she wants to go further….I won’t when pressed I say “I am a Christian” and then its the “you’re such an a-hole for not telling me this when we first started hanging out”
I find this to be a bit decieving on my part and frankly, dishonest.
If this kind of behavior is a “female mating call” you guys are the ones who are really, really whipped and the ones who are for real “pedestalizing women”
You would want to date, and make your wife a woman who uses foul language and really insulting things to say about you when you have just met, or barely met? This means that she actually wants to date you???????????????????????????????????????
So when you then pass this test, she will be come the sweetest woman in the world who “just wants your baby” and will be ready to submit to your authority and fram in a real Christ like manner?
Whale excrement
Yes Derek, I am sure she was chasing you from day one, and you were unemotional, like an oak…..and she just wanted you more and more. You did nothing I am sure
So don’t tell any woman you go on a date with that you are a Christian….but if it comes up in conversation….deal with it then…..let her post on social media some very vulgar, crass and insulting things under a pic of us….but hey? She’s testing me! She really likes me!!!!! Learn ballroom dancing because its all about frame….but to the countless multitude (95%) of men who don’t know how to ballroom dance still have frame obviously because they are dating, mating, marrying, divotcing, remarrying……are FATHERS……so ballroom dancing can’t be the only key to having frame. Gotta be as solid as that oak……….just like a personality of Al Gore……..they’ll be all over you…..
This is what it is sounding like. My mother NEVER insulted my father like that after a date. My friends from college when they first met their future wives as I recall didn’t have her come up, spit on them in public with the hidden code and meaning of “she really, really likes him”
and if indeed this is what you all think it means…..explains the national divorce rate pretty easily……..a woman that is crass, rude, and tries to purposely hurt you must be a catch.
I want off this planet now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I didn’t get angry at her. I didn’t even REPLY or acknowledge the post. SHe should be banging on my door right about now right because I gave ZER INTEREST in her tantrum on Facebook.
If have to share heaven with all you for eternity…..maybe I would be better off in the infernal regions at this point
I am realizing she went on a date with me to HURT me…just a game to her. Fun, you know. My co-worker showed it to me. I thanked him for the heads up……people know who I am in town from Chamber of Commerce meetings, and some work with the Rotary Club…..this could be a potentially embarassing post if some of the movers and shakers in town see it, or my boss (would be more ashamed at that)
Jason, I understand your pain- I am in a similar situation. But I think your anger- which is understandable- is clouding your judgement here. I am not seeing the kind of attacks you are in the Christian side of the ‘sphere. At least, not on any kind of systematic level. People are trying to help. Don’t let your anger and your pain keep them from trying, at least.
@ seventiesjason
Yeah, I can see how having friends like that are frustrating. I hate the “God’s timing” answer because it’s not helpful or useful.
Personally, I never ask out any women I didn’t know were Christians. The only women from Church. It’s just a waste of time to ask out women otherwise. They already knew I was a Christian, and I already knew they were at least probably a Christian.
Getting plugged into a solid Church is definitely a good idea especially if you have just moved, but I also like interdenominational events too.
Lost Patrol,
“Jason is a real man, and a fairly accomplished one at that.”
I have read his comments at Dalrocks and even been to his blog. I am familiar with the bio you wrote, I could have written the same thing about Jason.
But, have you been to California and personally met Jason? Have you been out dancing with him?
I do not have evidence either way so I am not saying he is a troll account. But, yesterday for the first time I have begun asking the question, become skeptical.
I am asking a question, I am not making an accusation.
seventiesjason,
“Bee….”show me proof” yeah…..show me “proof” that you did.”
You leveled the serious accusation against me so the burden of proof is on you to show some facts, some evidence.
Or, you could retract and apologize to me.
Bee,
I didn’t think you were making an accusation, and I’ve not met Jason in person. It’s fair to ask of anyone on web comments if they are straight shooters and probably hard to know at the end of the day. He’s published so much verifiable personal information, whereabouts, and activities across so many blogs that I’m not really wondering about that; but that doesn’t mean I’m right.
Like you in praying for him, and many men on this and other sites, I hoped to provide him some encouragement; but he is sometimes resistant to that.
So don’t tell any woman you go on a date with that you are a Christian….but if it comes up in conversation….deal with it then…..let her post on social media some very vulgar, crass and insulting things under a pic of us….but hey? She’s testing me! She really likes me!!!!
I didn’t say that she really likes you. She’s not ever sure how she feels. The girl was just seeking an emotional thrill and validation from her followers. She enjoyed being a brat. Women do that a lot these days because they weren’t trained to be polite and because men don’t enforce their boundaries.
Last night, a woman was bratty towards me and deliberately tripped me on the dance floor and she and her friend laughed. She was rude and disrespectful. Well, in the past she has been totally indifferent towards me. The girl has taken to interrupting a conversation with a male friend. He drops his conversation with me and turns to her. Well, at that point I turned and left the area to find something else to amuse me. I did that a couple of nights. That bothered the girl, so she colluded with her friend to try to embarrass me on the dance floor. But I wasn’t embarrassed nor did I get angry and storm at them. I just looked at them as if it was a funny joke at my expense. Zero fucks given. But I enforced my boundaries later.
I found the girl who had tripped me when her friend wasn’t around. I tapped her on the arm and she turned to face me, interested in whatever I had to say. I moved up close and roared at her, “I didn’t know you cared.” Lots of tonal dynamics and range. You know what her response was? She smiled and rubbed her tits on me. The girl had been testing me–probably not even consciously aware that she was testing me but was only thinking that she wanted to amuse herself. The woman didn’t know how she felt about me because she didn’t really know me–she only knew how I looked. But woman are attracted by masculine displays, not by looks. (Oh, by the way, the woman is in her mid twenties and has a killer body.)
Men do this kind of thing, too. They will test you to find out what kind of person you are. They’ll be a little rude to you to test your emotional strength and social awareness. For example, I was at a wedding and an older man who was a friend of the bride started squeezing my neck vertebrae. I had just met him at the reception and I had mentioned during the conversation that I had been in a lot of fights growing up, having been a military brat. (His son was Special Forces.) I could have whined about the annoyance and aggravation. I could have punched him. I could have left him. Instead I slowly moved my own hand up his back to his neck. He stopped squeezing and grinned at me and removed his hand from my neck. I had passed his test. There was nothing serious about it. He had caused me some pain but no damage. It was no big deal and not really disrespectful. It was an important question for him about whether I had been telling the truth about having been in a lot of fights growing up and about what kind of person I am. Would I enforce my boundaries, and, if so, how would I enforce them? The way that I did it let him know that I could take pain without flinching or complaining–that I was tough. This is a quality that wise men seek in their male friends.
“Be wise as serpents….”
and your foul language isn’t what I would call praticulary Christ-like
Prissy, priggish, and prudish. (I alliterated all over myself)
Socially unskilled.
theasdgamer….
Men who are rude to to “test” me I don’t deal with, and most men I have dealt with over the decades have never been. Sure, I have had some juvenile behavior pulled on me over the years by men….but nothing phsyically harmful as an adult……but in prep school???????
I also upheld the honor code at my prep school once (big mistake). I had a sock party done on me (1986 i think). A sock party is when a boy at my prep school needed to be put in line. A bunch of boys (usually around ten) would break into his dorm room late at night, faces covered and holding a sock with a fresh bar of soap in it, and a few would hold you down, and the rest would pummel you bad with the sock with the bar of soap in it…..you would be in class the next day all bruised and welted. Would be in pain for a week or two. They focused on your face so EVERYONE could see. Everyone (including the teachers) knew exactly what had happened to you. No one said a word. Not the teachers. Not the Headmaster, or Dean. It was a statement of “in the boy culture, this boy was outta line with the rest of the boys in the tribe” (ie the dorm / prep school) so to speak, and he had to be put in line. I was never asked to partake in a sock party, but usually a few times a semester, there would be a boy in class welted and bruised. It was just understood that you didn’t ask what happened or why. Hazing is what it falls under I guess……..
Christians shouldn’t cuss. Period. It’s not “priggish” or “prude” or “stuck up” and a man or woman who is Christain who doesn’t cuss in not “socially unskilled” and if in order to be a socially skilled Christian, I must speak like the world……….it shows how much the world is inside the church or our faith……….we have a billion translations of the Bible today in “real english” to “relate” to people. No one is banging down the doors to get in saying “Ah yes, the church now has social skills and can relate to me”
I am glad you have something like ballroom dancing to have women rub their “titties” on you. A woman who trips you, laughs doesn’t deserve you……and her doing this action to you probably is great, but your frame isn’t proving anything. You just got proved.
She can laugh at you. Trip a great dancer like you, and then you be “cocky funny” and she rubs herself on you shows how much power she has over you. You wrote it like it was a victory. She tripped you in your game and laughed at you in front of other women…….at an activity you love……embarassed you, and you made a reply, and then she does this, and you liked it. You got proved. You didn’t prove anything to her. She could use her sexuality and female form to make you think she likes you. Great! Now what?
Yeah. Dating her yet? Did you bring up your Christian faith over meals, or hanging out to see if you were or could be a couple or date?
Look. There is a deep part of me that wants or wishes things could be different for me in these matters. I am so very and hopelessly lonely. I wasn’t made for these times………..I am trying to be clear or put my thoughts in a way that you will understand……..unlike everyone in the Christian ‘sphere I don’t have the 140 IQ and answers to everything. I’m just a man, a sinner given a second chance.
Where is the practical advice? I mean, I met David DeAngelo. I went to a bootcamp in 2000 so I could learn the secrets about women…..I have read Rollo. I have watched a billion YouTube clips……….evetything seems to be made that one has to spend ALL DAY and ALL NIGHT decoding, framing, learning how to be an a-hole, funny, having a style, having this or that….but not too much…..and not too little…….be yourself……but no, don’t be yourself…….
Just for a date? Just for the mere chance of meeting a woman, or marrying her?
Did Jesus break it down this way? Did he tell everyone “go to the Temple and the teachers of the law, learn from them to be a good husband, have them question you, so they can find your presonality type…….dress and behave a certin way……..make sure you know the Torah and memorize it, and be able to bench 120 in so much time…..then your wife will fall into line….”
You can laugh at me……you can say I just don’t get it. You can tell me this is the way its always been………but where is love? Comittment? Friendship? Trust? Building something together? I mean, if men have spend all of their free time on ‘gaming and framing” their wife….and amp this up ten fold just to get a date, a helper…….a wife????
Brings tears to my eyes………and makes me hate myself for not being like you all. It hurts. It’s not fair……..and I have this powerful sex drive still…..I don’t use porn ever since becoming a Christian (over ten years ago). I have not fornicated….I’m driven half insane by temptation of just getting a hooker or “escort” and just getting it over with……….
I’m not alone here. I am not a soy boy. I freaking hike and backpack for weeks at a time in the forests. I am not afraid of streets late at night in nefarious parts of town……….I have some cool hobbies……I have been clean off drink and drugs now for over 15 years. No relapses. I wasn an excellent Scoutmaster and Woodbadge recipient. I have style. I bathe. I am well groomed……I can talk about a lot of topics…..no, I am not as smart as you guys on most things…..and yet……….
I am really alone now……..I’m wounded, and I am realizing that this is the end for me. I’ll never be a father (really really doubtful even if I magicallhy became some sort of alpha…by your terms…..that I would meet a 25 year old Christian woman who wanted to get to know, date, and marry a man that is almost 50). The women I have met and known in church, don’t like me “that way” or have three kids in tow by different daddies, she raises her hands in praise……she gets recognition for being a “strong woman” yet is unrepentant………..or its women who have let themselves go terribly and expect a man who looks like Ryan Gosling to “love her for who she is on the inside” and views a man like me as ugly, or not “masculine”
Yet I am the one with the problem. Hence why men leave the church.
Christians shouldn’t cuss. Period.
Says who? Is that the Eleventh Commandment, “Thou shalt not cuss?”
You have no social understanding, nor do you want to. You just want to be “right” in your own eyes and judgmental. It makes you feel important. You actually are a foolish and disobedient child, if you are a Christian. Christ said to be wise as serpents, but you are wise as doves. Disobedient.
You are wounded and it’s your own fault. That’s the Red Pill. You are weak and lazy because that’s how you were brought up by The Village. If you are really smart, you will dump all that propagandistic, feminizing programming that hamstrings you. But that will take effort on your part.
I’m wounded, and I am realizing that this is the end for me.
It’s only the end if you quit trying to improve yourself. Other men have successfully improved themselves, recovering from divorces and incel status. They have dumped all the feminizing programming that hamstrung them. Why not you?
Call it “growing in wisdom” or sanctification or “growing in Christ” or whatever Christianese jargon you like, it’s obvious that you need to change and improve yourself. DS has offered to help you, but nobody can help you until you want to change.
If you continue with whining and self pity, eventually nobody will cast their pearls before you any more.
The choice is yours.
I was raised by a mother and father who loved each other. Committed to each other. Had each others back. Trusted each other. Gave an excellent example of how a husband and wife should and could be for each other. They were not even Christians……I was the one who brought my father to the faith, and his last years on earth were amped up further of a “life well lived” because of this. My mother in her last year of life was ministered to a woman from Hospice. I never saw such peace in another person in the face of death
I wasn’t raised by a village, if I was I certainly would not be in here
Now. Clairify. Tell me the feminist programming I am under, and was raised with? Specifics. You called it out. You mentioned I view men and women as equals. I don’t I view us as differenmt biologically. Because hot women “rub their titties” on you means you are not a feminist?
I am pro life. I don’t do what women tell me to do, unless she is a supervisor and has asked in the protocols of the job I had / work I was in / position I was in. I had plenty of women supervisors in high school and college (worked in retail, clothing). Does that make me a feminist? I miss my mothers voice…..does this make me a spiny weak kneed, mealy mouth soy boy? I followed the so-called ‘pence rule’ for most of my life….even when I was an addict. Does this make me a feminist? I have held doors ope for women who were behind me going into a building……and do that for men as well. Does that make me a feminist? Because I answer a question when a woman asks me something “what time is it?” and I give her a polite answer….does that make me a feminist?
Clairify.
@ seventiesjason
I do not think that most of what asdgamer is saying is necessary or even recommended. I don’t cuss. I don’t go out of my way to act a certain way that some would deem unChristian. I’m upfront with women that I’m Christian and only ask women out that I already know are Christian. I suck at dancing. But I did work a ton on improving my social skills and emotional intelligence and learning how to tease and flirt and learning how to lead a relationship.
However, he is right in that you’re clinging to idealism about how the world works. Yeah, perhaps our parents (and even generations before that) lived in a time where finding a spouse was more natural or even easy. Examples:
~ the Church and surrounding community was invested in getting people together
~ family and friends had wise advice that helped men and women understand what each other liked so they would have a leg up with the opposite sex
Maybe it would even be better if we had arranged marriages. Unfortunately, we don’t have a lot of that now.
Yeah, it may seem to suck that men have to focus on understanding what is attractive to women (confident and ambitious masculine leaders, protectors, providers), but all in all this is a good thing because at least you know how to be attractive to the opposite sex just like women know that their physical appearance and femininity is attractive to men (as much as some don’t want to admit it).
Many men are divorced now because they don’t understand or are bad/ignorant at fulfilling Biblical marital roles and responsibilities and don’t even know anything is wrong. When a man doesn’t have direction it’s easier for him to fail, but we know God’s mission and things that we need to do in order to do it.
Expanding out into some different ministries to where you can serve in the Church may help you meet some single women too.
@Jason
When theasdgamer said what he said, it struck a chord with me. My wife told me before we were married that I was her emotional rock. I grounded her. She may have used the word “rock” instead of “oak”, but the concept is the same. And there have been many times that our marriage could have fallen to pieces if not for my stabilizing force.
I can’t say whether or not this is the case for all marriages, but it is certainly the case for mine. I wouldn’t claim it is a one-size-fits-all magic formula.
She wasn’t chasing me. I chased her. Aggressively. It was a ton of work. I’ve never had to work so hard for anything in my life. I take implicit and explicit criticism from Dalrockian types for it, but who cares what they think?
I was not, and have never been, unemotional. Being the rock to her storm doesn’t mean you don’t have feelings. You don’t let her storms drag you, her, or the relationship down.
Lastly, there are many things that go into finding a mate, and I’m not a fan of formulaic advice. What works for one person may not work for another. She chose me for many things. I just know she wouldn’t have married me if I wasn’t her rock.
Derek. The last time I spoke with my mother…….I visited my native New York State….knew she was dying….little did I know it would be month later. This was early December 2007.
She was weak, would not let me see her without her wig, the chemo had taken all of her hair. She could still speak, walk with a cane…..yeah, always a slender woman….she was really frail looking.
We talked a lot. I was only clean and sober for just under four years at the time….it was my first time I had seen her since since summer 2002.
“Your father has been my fence since the day I said ‘I do’ in 1964.”
Later the same day, my mother in between being sick, and my father attending…….cleaning her, bathing her and making sure she was as comfortable as possible………we were enjoying evening coffee, and my dad having a rare cigarette with me at the kitchen table. I said offhand, “mom has aged a lot since the last time I saw her.”
Dad nodded in a curious way I could not understand……he spoke “Jay, I don’t really understand what you are saying. That woman, your mother is the most beautiful woman in the world, she looks as good to me as the day I met her at that gas station in 1963, if you ever meet a woman and settle down….grow old together, you’ll understand. A question her father asked me by letter when I asked his permission to marry her (my mothers family was in the UK), ‘I know you love her, she has told me as much…..but do youy like her. That’s the test of your future marriage as man to my daughter.”
Derek. I am happy for you. I am. DS too. I just am so lost on this, it just seemed to happen for everyone else……..
That woman, your mother is the most beautiful woman in the world, she looks as good to me as the day I met her at that gas station in 1963
wife goggles
Jason, you aren’t the man your father was. He was reared in a different world than you were. Your father wasn’t subjected to an unrealistic view of women. Feminist propaganda hadn’t imbued the culture. Men hadn’t been devalued by culture. Back in your father’s day, women weren’t openly promiscuous, generally speaking. There was no Pill back then. No “No Fault Divorce”. No VAWA. Men were more likely to hunt and fish and work on cars and boats and engines and do stuff with their hands. There was more comraderie among men. Men had more testosterone and men were more likely to be involved in their sons’ lives. Your dad experienced this but you didn’t.
In your dad’s day, men weren’t shamed for their masculinity. Men were taught to have boundaries and enforce them. Men were taught how to stand and move attractively, like a man. Stand tall, shoulders back, breath sucked in, move with a spring in your step, head held high, look people in the eye, etc. Women were viewed as ‘victims’ if they were seduced…Old Set of Books…fast forward to 2019…
Women are still viewed as victims if they are seduced because the Old Set of Books still applies to women…however, the celebration of masculinity in the Old Set of Books has been discarded…men try to be more feminine…you see lots of metrosexuals when you’re out…men in shorts and sandals and coiffed beards in coffee houses…men actively white knight for women supporting feminism to the general detriment of men because the white-knighting men have believed the cultural programming…
…the cultural programming says that women can do everything that men can do…but it says that men are broken women…femininity is celebrated while masculinity is debased…testosterone levels continue to fall in men…but men and women truly think much differently when it comes to sexual things…it’s just biology…men respond to visual beauty and women respond to displays of masculinity…women want a dominant man and men want a submissive woman. Men tend to think more narrowly and directly and downplay their emotions, while women tend to think more broadly and indirectly and process their decisions through their emotions. Women tend to be able to multitask better than men, while men tend to be able to analyze better than women. Different brains. Women don’t think abstractly about justice and ethics like men do. Women tend to think practically about what’s to their advantage and whether something is moral. Morality ethics.
Women used to be trained to behave more circumspectly, but that isn’t so any more and men have to be able to adjust to the current reality, not behave like they are living in some fantasy that perhaps existed in their parents’ younger days.
Men have to realize that they have been cheated and to realize that no one can fix this but the men themselves. That’s the bad news. Men have to realize that being a man gives them certain tools that they can use to fix things, including themselves. That’s the good news.
Do you choose to cling to rationalizations and throw a pity party or do you choose to fix yourself and go on about living a happy life?
@DS
The apostle Paul used profanity…Jesus as well…I don’t hold myself as being more pure than they are. Profanity is to be used for emphasis and, perhaps, as jargon (e.g., “shit test” and “zero fucks given”). I don’t use it without a purpose and I can’t remember cursing (e.g., “God damn it!”)
Profanity isn’t necessarily cursing.
I suppose you don’t recommend enforcing your boundaries with humor. Being harsh is so much better! 😉
How about you answer my questions and clairfy your stance in my above post? And it looks like I struck a nerve with you. For a man who gives “zero fucks” (pardon my use, contextual)
You seem to very concerned about “negging” me about the man I suposedly am., and really bent on proving to me how terrible it is to be one. I enjoy being a man.
Don’t talk to me like you talk to silly twenty-something girls at the bar, at your dance class and on the Internet. You’re talking to a man and a fellow believer. You overtly “real men” chest thump and bully, constantly and belittle other men who may not have as much experience as you. Cloaking that in manhood. You lord it over them with concepts, with “okiedokkies” and belittling. You are talking to a man and a fellow believer. Answer my questions above I poised to you.
Did Jesus play tackle football? Did he scoff at His disciples for being just “mere fishermen” (obvioulsy not a career that would enable you to own flocks of goats, sheep, or other tangible wealth at the time). Did he “tease” Mary Magdalene and make her giggle at his awsome frame? No. Then quit fobbing off manhood as these essentials, or you’re some destined loser.
My father was a shy, quiet man who preferred reading a book to working on a car, drinking beer talking about how “masculine” he was. He camped and hiked. He met my mother. She was 18. He was 30. He asked her on a date (he was a pump jockey….going to Journeyman school…..his big adventure in life was his stint the USAF and he went skiing in the Andes in the early sixties)
I enjoy being a man.
I don’t think that ‘man’ means what you think it means.
done with you until you answer my questions I asked in my one above post about the feminist programming I am under, and that I was RAISED with.
Jason, is the Song of Songs in your Bible, or have you excised it? (I am answering one of your non-diversionary questions.)
I think that you suck at being a man. Until you agree with that, you won’t want to change and improve.
Jason, did you attend school? Did you read books? Did you watch television? Did you read cultural stories on the web? Did you go to college? Were you young? Did you have friends?
How could you avoid receiving feminist indoctrination? It’s in children’s books, psych papers and articles, music, movies, youtube vids, articles about music and Hollywood, political articles, etc.
Were you raised by wolves? Were you raised in a cabin in the woods away from civilization?
The entire cultural narrative is imbued with feminism. Especially in “Christian” circles. Focus on the Family and Family Life Today stuff especially.
Jesus chose to be celibate. Jason, you did not choose to be celibate. When it comes to seeking a wife, Jesus is not the person to emulate.
Everything Jesus did was by the will of the Father. Everything. Everything He spoke about. Taught. Everything he did was of His Fathers will. It was always to please the Father. Even going to the Cross was the will of the Father. He had no choice. He came to serve, not to be served. How He longed for us that “we” may indeed be able to know the Father.
As a follower of Christ (since 2009) and calling myself a Christian, and striving…not being like Him but striving……yeah, imagine being like Jesus….having one of your own betray you, facing off with the devil in the desert being tempted by that for forty days and nights. To the the suffering. To the cross……..how many of us could do that? None.
Jesus came to us an average looking guy. There was no “comeliness to that would make us attracted to Him”. That is my one strand of hope in this world that gives me that piece of comfort knowing greatness doesn’t have to come from physical appearance.
Don’t be jerk…of course I didn’t grow up with wolves “The Jungle Book” is a fictional story btw.
So, let me guess…..since you have rejected feminist indoctrination, and now you have women with hot bodies rubbing their “titties against you”
Congrats. You won. You won the game. So now what.
And since I “suck” as a man (in your opinion), and I have evidently not rejected feminism because I have not found a real awesome, hot, perfect, unicorn, NAWALT wife like Derek, or Dalrock, or DS here, or a few others on other blogs………….
I suck as a man? And the reason for this is because I have not rejected the feminist indoctrination like you, and like the above men I mentioned is why I am single.
Nest thing you will tell me is this was all orchestrated by the Jews, the Rothchilds or the Rockafellars.
Yes I have read “Songs of Soloman” a wise man who couldn’t follow his own advice in the end, and by his poetic language, and beautiful linguistics of his descrptions of love, sex, the female form……he must have been a “white knight”
Gotta watch that frame. I wonder if he was a ballroom dancer too.
Thanks
Jason, you lack reading comprehension. Your explanation of SoS is severely lacking. I have published several posts about the SoS that contain much more information.
Do you know why the cool kids didn’t talk to uncool kids? It wasn’t because they were stuck up, but because the uncool kids wouldn’t believe what the cool kids would know is true.
There are no NAWALT wives. Biology doesn’t differ much from one woman to another.
Really, you don’t want any help. You’d rather enjoy your pity party. Good luck with that.
Jason, the churchian version of feminism teaches that men need to be gentlemen…men don’t tell “off-color” jokes…sexual double-entendres are off-base…men don’t touch women inappropriately…flirting is looked at negatively, etc. However, we see lots of contrary behavior in the New Testament. Jesus flirted with the Samaritan woman at the well, as I discuss in a post. A fallen woman wiped Jesus’ feet with her hair, which was viewed as a very lewd act. Mary Magdalene grabbed Jesus after he had risen from the dead, which was considered inappropriate touching. A woman anointed Jesus’ head with costly perfume, which was more inappropriate touching. You find sexual double-entendres in the Song of Solomon.
Christian behavior allows flirting, telling off-color jokes (not during worship, obviously), including double-entendres in conversation. Christian adults are expected to be interested in sex and in talking about sex just like other people. I was at a cookout with a small group of friends from church and some of the white women were making a big deal about how they like their weenies black, teasing their husbands and “misbehaving”. That was no big deal and just having fun. I once registered for a men-only event where barbecue was served and the church secretary was talking about how she didn’t think it was fair that women weren’t allowed to go and that she really likes “meat.” Another double-entendre and a woman just having fun in ordinary conversation and no big deal.
It’s Ok to swat a girl on the butt, if you have a trust relationship and you’re not being forward. It’s not only allowed, it’s almost required to tease girls–especially church girls. However, being extremely serious and “spiritual” all the time kills romantic interest. Do you know how to have fun at a party? Do you make women feel safe to be sexual with you and tease you and use double-entendres?
The odd thing, Jason, when this has come up on other blogs in the past is that you seem to be focused on your physical appearance relative to other men as what is the root of the problems you face.
This seems very implausible, given that you are over 6 feet tall and not overweight. Male physical appearance is not nearly as important for most women in their evaluation of men as it is for men when evaluating women, but one physical attribute that pretty much all women prefer in men is height. And you have that. And you are not overweight (some tall guys undermine themselves by getting large, which counteracts the attractiveness of the height). So on the physical side you’re most of the way there already just due to your height and weight. Trust me, you can have as much of a pretty boy/moviestar face as you like, but if you’re 5 foot five, you’re not going to attract very many women based on your appearance alone. There are other aspects of appearance which you also say you have down, like style and grooming and so on. So it just seems very implausible that your appearance is really what is causing issues for you — even if you have an unattractive face (I assume that’s what you mean since everything else you have shared about yourself physically doesn’t seem unattractive), the fact that you’re as tall as you are, are not overweight, dress well and groom well outweighs any shortcomings your face may raise in the physical attractiveness element of attraction for men.
There has to be something else, and likely it’s social skills of some sort (relatable, ability to flirt/banter, sense of humor, ability to hold light conversation, etc.), based on what you write and how you’ve described yourself. Those are skills that some people have more naturally than others, but which everyone can learn if they choose to do so — so really it’s about whether you want to do that or not.
Attracting a spouse today doesn’t “just happen”. It really doesn’t. It may look that way to you, from the outside looking into other people’s lives and relationships, but in the current era people meet spouses by behaving very intentionally. It takes a good deal of effort — effort to make oneself attractive to the women you’re trying to attract, and effort to screen women properly to find one that isn’t going to be more harm than good. DS has some excellent writing on this blog about what he himself did in those areas when he was looking for his wife — but rest assured, it didn’t “just happen”. It doesn’t work that way in 2019. Not for anyone, including Christians. Is this different from when our parents met (my mom is in her 80s)? Of course, it’s totally different. But that’s where things are at now. And so you have a choice as to whether or not you want to try or not. If you want to try, there’s a lot of advice about how to go about it, but you have to want to try — I mean really want to adapt to what is needed in order to successfully do it, given today’s parameters.
No you don’t touch women inappropriately. That’s not flirting. That’s “touching a woman inappropriately”
Yes, I’ve heard tons of really stretched interpetations about Jesus with the woman at the well. Yeah, he was actually “gaming and framing” her and “see…..it’s in The Bible, Jesus approves of Game!!!”
Ummmm….no.
No. He was telling her the truth. Like He always did in every situation. Everything was a teaching moment and lesson. He knew our nature, He knew we were fallen. He knew we had shame. He knew we lied. He knew our sin (and shame), He knew all these things, and yet…….He still provided a “way” and a place for us to come as we were…..to repent, to change our lives. He wanted us free of sin, so we could indeed be in the prescense of the one who sent Him. That is how holy God is.
What was revolutionary was not that he was talking to a Samaritan woman, or other women who were accused of being prostitutes…………his teaching just astounded people. Several instances in the Gospels it clearly states “…..and they were astounded!” He believed all could have eternal life, and it was through Him. Not “Song of Soloman” (he never quoted those Scriptures, important but He never quoted them). He did speak frequently enough about the Prophets of old. He talked about “when Adam walked in the garden”: and several times when He would be in the Temple, and He read from the Scriptures (“Torah”)
He also chose to teach to imperfect people. Prostitutes. Thieves. The wicked. Tax collectors. The lost. He never once demanded to see Caesar to tell him “let my people go”. The things of the world in these matters were of no concern to him. Why then did He not come into this world into a rich household with means? Or born into a priestly “schooled” family where He could have grown and reformed the Temple from the inside???? He came to the people who needed Him the most. People like us. His earthly father Joesph never gets much mention in the Bible. How can you compete with God??????? Bit Joesph into todays “Christian Sphere” would be accused of being a chump, simp, and a white knight. He prevented Mary from being a shamed woman…..and who knows…..possible killed. He provided Jesus with a upbringing and was humble and had humilty. Things we in the sphere that are despised by men for not being “real men”
Parties. The first mircle Christ performed was at a party in fact. When He turned water into wine, and it was at a wedding…..a sign and deep, deep metaphor of what He symbolized. He and the bridegroom. It wasn’t about getting drunk, being boorish, or a requirement to flirt, tease and bed a bridesmaid.
Women do feel safe around me. I follow the “pence rule” and when I have tried to flirt, the infamous they correct me………with women it always DEPENDS on who is doing the flirting. You’re one of the cool kids? Yeah, no problem. It’s harmless fun…women love it. A guy like me??????????
Creep. Awkward. Leave the women alone, let God bring one to you all that nonsense told to be by a “cool kid” in church, at past jobs, the bouncer / bartender . manager of a nightclub.
You don’t get it, and I am not expecting you to at this point. I could hit the gym, bench and someday be able to crush any advarsary into petroleum and it still wouldn’t be good enough for “the cool kids”
I camp, hike and backpack a lot. I have a friend who has climbed Half Dome in Yosemite many times. I’m not that insane and that is not my outdoor skill. Not a danger junkie. Guy is my age, cut and defined muscular….not overdone….but when he takes his shirt off when we go camping…..the rest of us, who are by no means look like Homer Simpson……but we’re all given a small complex. Dude can’t get a date either. We have talked to each other, have encouraged each other……I am trying to win him for Christ…..that’s another story……anyway, he’s only 5’8″
I’ve seen the hurt and resentment and yes……..some tears in those moments when we have camped snd tslked about his situation. He calls me a “winner” in the genetics department (as if) because I am 6’3″
Grass is always greener thing. Guy has climbed Half Dome. He’s a licensed social worker and is a really down to earth man. Women like men today want LOOKS. If you don’t have looks, your ONLY solution is behave like you………being an a-hole.
A woman likes you or she doesn’t, and SHE decides. Not you. Not your frame. Not you Game. Not if you swat her on the butt. Seen a billion times for no reason a woman just come up and start talking to a guy. She decides she likes him, is going to bed him…..and that’s it.
Nova……I will respectfully disagree. It’s looks or money FIRST and then a guys “amazing personality” third, fourth, or tenth on their list.
I was a bartender. I worked high tech. I lived most of my life in the world of crass materialism, of parties, of drugs, of general stupidity and being one of the sheeple. Even now as a Christian and back again in a pretty decent job……….it’s looks or money first.
Christian women are assumed to be Holy by showing up to church ready to be a wife or mother while men still have to man up, walk on water, feed 5000, lead the praise team in order to get a date…….if you are not any of these things and happen to be blessed with a circus freak show of looks….well, cancel all the above out. He’s good looking. He must be a “good” man.
Nova, you’re still assuming that its easy for men to get dates, going out with women, getting their number…………………I can’t even do that. I think and know this is the crux of the problem. The last date I had in October……it was my first one in over twenty years decided it would really “fun” to shame me on social media.
It was done on purpose to make a joke of me.
The problem with advice for men in my stage. GETTING the number or HOW to flirt is really, really hard to convey or teach.
Been in almost twenty weddings, watched friends meet their future wives….it wasn’t that hard. He asked her on date. She said yes, they dated. They got married
….and Nova….
with the way Game is talked and preached and upheld as more important than The Bible now in Christian man o sphere circles………no man has to do the pursuing. It’s not intentional. It’s not hard work.
He is just has amazing frame and game. Women see how “awesome” he is by doing nothing, he then just picks and chooses which one is the best and they get married.
If it doesn’t work…..”
well, that man needs to be broken in two, practice for twenty years (because you know, he’s not a natural like the rest of them…..they were all born with it) and if he fails….well, he didn’t follow the IOI’s and didn’t approach correctly and should have done it at night, and should have said this joke first while pulling out the deck of cards next and telling a filthy joke, but only on Tuesdays with a full moon, because women are more recptive to men on a full moon, and she used her right hand instead of her left hand when she tossed her hair…well, that means she was interested, but you should have done it a few minutes earlier on a Wednesday….follow her simple cues. It’s really, really basic and easy. No, no….looks don’t matter to women…but go to the gym….hmm, maybe your eye clor shuld be brown. Go get colored contacts…..change your hair style….hmm, you’re balding….gotta fix that somehow…..no brother, looks don’t matter to women. Never. They can’t help who they fall for. Now, see that one there…I can tell she’s easy because she looked me in the eye when she said hello…….it means she wants me to approach. So cater to what she needs….no, no, no……we NEVER do anything or cater to them. We’re men, we take what we want, and do what we please women love that! Learn some jokes……make her laugh, but find out by her cues and secret language….yeah, it’s not that hard to learn………for you, yeah…….just read this book by Roosh, and if you still are failing, you just are not trying and have a defeatist attitude. This is easy and foolproof! You will have to work hard for many many years but it will be worth it……women will do anything you say once you learn. Women all think alike. They want to have fun, dude this is very serious, you think Game is joke. It’s serious. Talk to her like a bratty little sister, you don’t have a sister? So what if you insult them, they’re only good for one thing. Wiat, why are you giving up? Women hate quitters….oh well, choice is yours…….more for me you obviously like being miserable. You can’t deny Game, and if you do…..you love being a loser and are not a real man, and cannot just take the time and follow these really, really simple steps. Don’t confuse Game with inner Game, night game, here is a chart to understand they four levels of female psychology……make sure you put this into step 4 but don’t over do it…….why are you quitting? This is basic and easy, it’s foolproof. Looks don’t matter. Hmmmmm…..there has got to be a way make your chin a little more prominent, do you have insurance….they can maybe do some surgurey on that………..looks never, never matter to women. You have such a bad attitude, this is easy and foolproof. I guess you just want to stay a loser…………….”
Jason —
I din’t say looks don’t matter — they do. If you’re 5 foot 5 you’ll have challenges with women, and if you’re 300+ pounds you will as well, and nobody denies that. What I said was that they don’t matter as much to women as they do to men — which is true. And what I also said was that, for men, height is the most important element in “looks” for most women — height and build. If you’re 6 foot 3 and not overweight, then you must be referring to your face, is that correct (if not, then I’m confused because there isn’t much else for men apart from height, build and face when it comes to “looks”, other than style and grooming, which you say you have covered well enough)?
If that’s the case, let me ask you this. All the guys you know who are married or have girlfriends — people from church and the secular world alike. Do they all have strikingly attractive faces? Do they all have faces that are very obviously many gradations more attractive than your face?
Nova. Yes.
Okay – that’s interesting. Most of the married men I know (eg at work, extended family, church) don’t have strikingly attractive faces, but I suppose we all have our own different experiences.
it’s interesting all right. Pretty freaking unfair is what it is, and I still have to hear over and over again that women are attracted to personality, and somehow they are better than men because they “look on the inside” nonsense and its believed in Game, out in the world, and in church.
its killing me………I think its just worse than usual Nova. A lot of times I can deal. When I am out in the woods, or dancing…..and when I dance, I go to dance. I don’t go to get shot down by approaching women.
When I am at work, I can really get lost in moving the building along. I am challenged but I handle the job very well. I also am in an office. I don’t have to interface like my admin does. I serve at night as my comission in Christ……..most people are asleep. The streets are free of alot of traffic…..and the broken and the lost…….the addict, the runaway, the prostitute don’t care about how I look. It’s part of the reason I am not afraid of rough neighborhoods. On this issue. They never judged me. Made me feel ashamed for what I was born like. Snickered. Called me a creep. Assumed I was bad, or not friendly. On this level, I have seen more Jesus in these folks than I do in a church…….big or small, protestant or catholic or orthodox.
The few friends I do have like me for being who I am. They are not Christians. My Christian friends, we only talk about ministry, a boring Bible study….they claim this as us fellowshipping, but we never talk about real topics. When I have tried over the past decade….and its not they are mean or cold, they themselves just think hanging out means having a Bible study. I don’t need to hear about how we can be like Daniel. We can’t be Daniel. We’re in Califonia in 2019….besides, none of them would last a day if bandits came into the church, killed the pastor…hauled the women off and sent the rest of us to exile or a reeducation camp. But we’re “bold” for Jesus……
I am on the cusp of fifty….my fathers passing, really no one to talk to……this woman who really made an example of me of FB / Twitter………..my college and grad school friends of old at Christmastime sending me a card. Pictures of them. Pictures of their now grown children going to college…….
Everyone is still on some bold adventure on to bigger and better things………while I am to to “wait on God” and “learn Game, humor, teasing, flirting and women can’t help but fall for you…because we all ‘know’ Game is foolproof and Rollo has replaced the Bible”
I’m painfully lonely, probably more depressed than usual and when I try to speak or convey “You’re bitter!!” and “No wonder you’re single!!!!” “Creep” and “I guess you are happy where you are!”
Ten thousand times no. I’m not, but there isn’t a solution. I either kil myself, I either just endure and strive to retire, buy a cabin in the woods and just finish up way out there…..or put on a fake toothpaste smile and fake it til I make it.
I don’t want to be that man in church who is 65 “Oh….God really has this perfect woman planned for , he’s gonna deliver soon. He always keeps his promises.”
HELP
No you don’t touch women inappropriately. That’s not flirting. That’s “touching a woman inappropriately”
For you. You aren’t one of the cool kids. The cool kids have some wisdom. They understand about how men and women relate romantically. When they touched a woman, it wouldn’t be inappropriate from the woman’s perspective. I have a story about white knights thinking that I touched a woman inappropriately.
I was dancing with one woman and another came up behind me and attempted to steal a red handkerchief from my back pocket. It felt weird and I looked and I grabbed the woman’s wrist and pulled her along for a bit, making her look a little ridiculous. (She had been trying to play a joke on me, of course, and make me look silly.) Then I let her go. Well, I figured that the woman probably wanted to meet me because if she had been successful I’d have had to go to her to retrieve my hanky.
So I went over to where the woman was standing with her friends and introduced myself and she was pleased to introduce herself and she introduced her two male friends (one of her friends was her date, but she didn’t tell me that). Then, to make a point and enforce my boundaries, I played a game where everyone could see where I got her engaged in the game and I touched her on her hip–where it was high and not creepy. But it was obnoxious, like when she was trying to steal my hanky. Then I left the group.
Two men complained to a bouncer about my touching the woman “inappropriately.” Those men told the bouncer that they wanted to hit me because of the touch. The woman was also present and–shock!–she took my side and told the bouncer about what she had done to instigate the whole sequence of events. The bouncers didn’t eject me–they just asked me to avoid the two white knights.
Fast forward one year. The same woman, whom I had chatted with for maybe a total of five minutes one year previously, played grabass hit-and-run on me while I was standing up chatting with another guy. That woman didn’t think that my touch had been inappropriate at all. To her, it was me enforcing my boundaries, which I did because the woman had tried to make me into a public lolcow. The grabass was done privately, where no one could see. The purpose was to flirt and get my attention–not to turn me into a public lolcow.
Do you see that social calibration is a good thing? Inappropriate touching in one context can be appropriate in another. But if you lack social understanding, you won’t be able to perceive the difference, like those white knights who complained about me.
It was done on purpose to make a joke of me.
So what? You weren’t being ignored and this is something that you could have worked with. If you had enough testosterone, you would take it as a challenge and succeed. Or fail and learn how to master the challenge. But testosterone won’t let you give up. I think that you’re just too full of yourself.
with the way Game is talked and preached and upheld as more important than The Bible
Well, you treat the Bible very superficially when it comes to romance. I don’t see that you do anything different than men who push Game. Maybe you should do a serious Bible study on the Song of Solomon. Test your Anti-Game hypothesis, but maintain an open mind.
… now in Christian man o sphere circles………no man has to do the pursuing. It’s not intentional. It’s not hard work.
The object is to make women chase, like in the Song of Solomon, where the woman asks, “Where do you pasture your flock….” She’s chasing.
Once you achieve unconscious competence with any skill, that skill isn’t hard work. It takes hard work to get to that point, though. Lots of hard work, then you coast.
Regarding the Samaritan woman at the well, the woman asked Jesus if he was greater than Abraham, which was a test of Jesus’ status. And Jesus replied in the affirmative, which was a demonstration of high status. Of course, I explained this on my blog and you didn’t check out my post entitled “Jesus flirted.”
Ummmm….no.
No. He was telling her the truth.
After he got the Samaritan woman’s attention, Jesus got to his main point…but first, Jesus flirted with the woman to get her attention. It’s all in the text and the ancients would have understood it this way. There’s a comment in the text about the disciples wondering why Jesus was talking to the woman, which confirms my reading of the text. Don’t read superficially. Your reading twists the text. I think that you lack an open mind and have an investment in the Anti-Game position.
I hope that you reconsider.
Jesus told her to get Him some water. Yeah, flirting. Sure. Whatever
it’s interesting all right. Pretty freaking unfair is what it is, and I still have to hear over and over again that women are attracted to personality, and somehow they are better than men because they “look on the inside” nonsense and its believed in Game, out in the world, and in church.
This “look on the inside” language takes some unpacking. Women communicate differently than men. Men communicate directly and verbally, while most of women’s communication is nonverbal. Let’s apply this to the phrase in question. Women care about how a man makes them feel. If his looks make them feel romantic, then that’s Ok. But if you were a bartender and were paying attention, I’m sure that you noticed that occasionally, a woman would initially be intrigued by one handsome guy, but leave with another guy who was funny and friendly and masculine and was “handsy” with the woman. So looks can’t be the #1 thing when it comes to women’s attraction. (it sure as shooting can’t be in my case, lol.)
But there’s a kind of “looks” that women perceive that isn’t based on your physique or height. It’s your presence and how you carry yourself and your voice. Yul Brynner. Yul was one of the actors whom women found irresistible. He didn’t have top-level facial looks (like Tom Cruise) or physique. But he had presence and this is something that men can learn. Yul moved like he was dangerous and his presence was always that he was the dominant man in the scene. Everyone was trying to please Yul. This drove women wild.
Otoh, Bob Hope was probably one of the most profligate womanizers in Hollywood, despite having seriously below average looks, height, and physique. But Hope was a dominant rascal. Everyone answered to him. And several women would be waiting outside his hotel room wherever Hope was staying. Hope was a cheapskate and wouldn’t give women money if he could help it. Hope made being a cheapskate part of his public persona and women weren’t interested in Hope because of money.
Your assignment is to study Yul–how he talked, Yul’s voice, and how he carried himself and try to imitate him. Then go out and practice doing that among women and watch their responses.
Oh, about bringing up Christ on a first date–that is a very serious subject and shouldn’t be brought up until the third or fourth date if you don’t know if the person is a Christian. Talking about Christ too soon is forward. There’s an order to things. You open a conversation with “Hi, how are you?” You don’t open it with “I’m Joe and I’m a Christian.” You start a relationship by talking about the mundane and then you gradually go deeper. Going deep too soon is forward and socially awkward. People make fun of people who are socially awkward. Think about that.
Funny story about pursuing dsendgamer
Three, four years ago…..I’m in Fresno, leading my Boy Scout Troop (my Salvation Army Coprs chartered a Boy Scout Troop) like I have since 2009.
I had been doing this for for almost seven years…….a younger man named Zack wants to get involved. He’s 24? 25? I knew him from some camping / hiking meetups. So after the paperwork, I make him my new Assistant Scoutmaster. He did a fine job with the boys and we worked well together.
Every single woman in my church. All of them. From the old cat ladies, to the young teenage girls even the happily married women talking during coffee on Sunday morning……..”He is so handsome / what a catch of a man / you know when a guy does outdoor things, its such a cool thing to women / he can take me camping any day of the week / Jay, is he single I would like to set him up with my daughter / granddaughter / neice / cousin. I love men who just you know do something for youth, there are no men today in the church who do that”
It went on and on……….plenty of women doing the pursuing, just have the full checkbook of looks to back it up.
Here I was for years doing this, and at that time it wasn’t “attractive” for a man working with children or teenagers. It wasn’t attractive for a man to do outdoor things / it wasn’t hot to go camping anytime / and I def wasn’t leveraged to meet anyone’s neice, granddaughter or cousin
Women are no better than men on this. Where do you pasture? Women pursue if you have the looks. Btw…..he wasn’t a Christian. He didn’t talk to any woman there. He didn’t flirt or tease. He already had a live in girlfriend uptown.
The good looking can do no wrong.
Yul Brenner was an actor. A good one. He had decades of stage practice befoer the “King & I” when he got super famous. He was married at a young age. Being close firends with a Mr. Frank Sinatra going back to the 1940’s I am sure was a good connection too. Strawman
The good looking can do no wrong.
See, you see what you expect to see. Because you believe that men and women are the same–that both men and women are attracted primarily by looks. If you are a man who is good looking, but socially awkward, women won’t be attracted to you. (To some extent I was that young man.) I see lots of guys like that when I’m out. In fact, if you are good looking, women will expect you to have a better personality than if you were ugly. If you are ugly, but have a good personality, women will give you an Ugly Pass ™ and will be pleasantly surprised and will find you attractive. But if you are ugly and socially awkward, you will be incel. If you are handsome and socially awkward, there’s a good chance that you will be incel. Is there a theme here? lol
Do you see where you have bought into equalism, which is pushed by feminism? “You believe that men and women are the same.” You apply this to looks…because men are attracted to pretty women, but not to ugly women, then women must be attracted to handsome men, but not to ugly men. There are so many examples of women being attracted to ugly men. Charles Bronson took Jill Ireland away from a better looking high status actor (David McCallum). Bronson had below average looks, but he is very masculine. I think that your belief in equalism and looks is what’s killing you and your confidence. You lack confidence because you really, really, really believe that equalism nonsense about looks. That’s what’s killing your attractiveness to women.
If you got into a fight at a bar and put another guy in the hospital, women would be throwing their panties at you, even if you were ugly. Displays of masculinity, power, status, being dangerous. That’s what attracts women. “Women don’t like noble, self-sacrificing men. Women are not civilized like we are. They like bloodshed. They like forceful men, like me.” (“Double Wedding”, 1937). https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028804/quotes/?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu This info was known back in the days when men had more testosterone.
“Do you lift, bro?” Are you in a wheelchair or something? Is there some reason that women see you as physically weak?
You keep quoting imaginary, make-believe things like movies, works of fiction…actors who PRETEND everyday of their working lives.
No I don’t lift, I hike, backpack, camp and dance. My cardio is excellent for a man my age. My bmi is under 5%. I can carry a sixty plus pound pack and camp up are the 9,000 ft mark with zero problems. I am not physically weak. I led a Scout Troop that was very outddoor and camping active. Am I in a wheelchair….of course not.
Women don’t view me as weak. They view me as ugly
Jason, I think that you have some kind of disability. Are you autistic?
Lost Patrol,
“….. and I’ve not met Jason in person. It’s fair to ask of anyone on web comments if they are straight shooters and probably hard to know at the end of the day. ”
Be wise as serpents, and ……
Just be more alpha…. bro! Lol. Hahahaahaha! I thought we had lost LSDGamer forever! Hahahahaha!
Your problem Jason is that you treat this ‘relationsh*t’ hogwash seriously. Don’t. Stop. Relax. LSDGamer is lost in a world of autistic screeching. He can’t be helped. Treat him as you would a piece of bubblegum on the bottom of your shoe. His advise is useful in as much the same way as a blind man giving directions or asking a dead man how to live.
You need to let it go.
it won’t be long now FH
TruthHater is as useful as tits on a boar.
Jason, do you even remember how to play with people? Do you ever just tease girls for fun?
Nice to see you again too LSDGamer!
Female boars do have tits. Are you saying that piglets do not drink their mother’s milk?
Of course, if you’re referring to knockers, then why would you be thinking of boars?.. that’s a bit disturbing, I suggest you visit one of your many autistic safe spaces, inside your head, and return that thought to the memory bin of your mind.
Five percent of women are virgins when they marry. I bet this has a high percent of fuglies. Think I’ll pass on recommending only marrying virgins even though I married one who was a beauty. Not enough to go around.
@ theasdgamer
No, they didn’t.
Profanity:
1. blasphemous or obscene language. “an outburst of profanity” synonyms: oath, swear word, expletive, curse, obscenity, four-letter word, dirty word, execration, imprecation; More
2. a swear word; an oath. plural noun: profanities
3. irreligious or irreverent behavior. synonyms: idolatry, sacrilege, irreligiousness, ungodliness, impiety, unholiness, profaneness, blasphemy, irreverence, disrespectfulness, disrespect
“some traditional festivals were irremediably tainted with profanity”
Jesus in particular exposed hypocrisy, but he wasn’t profane.
I do not particularly care if others curse, but I avoid it for various reasons. The strongest being that it can easily cause weaker Christians to stumble and the obvious Scriptures against it:
Ephesians 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
@ theasdgamer
That’s of the general population. We’ve already gone over statistics that indicate that upwards of about 30-40% of women from Church are still virgins at marriage:
Sure, not all men can marry virgins, but not all men care (surprisingly). Of the men around here who know better and know that improving themselves into the top 20% is a good idea, it’s a wise idea.
Paul: “All our righteous deeds are like menstrual rags.”
Jesus: “You are like whitewashed tombs….”