Understanding the friend zone and escaping it

There has been some commentary on this post on Donal’s blog about the “friend zone” and if you can get in or out of it in different ways.

Harry comments:

So I read this blog, Dalrock & Free Northerner, from FN I go to more reaction political blogs. One big beef I have with the manosphere tho is this vehement insistence not to be friends with a chick first, the dreaded LJBF. That hasn’t been my experience at all. Was friends with my HS GF for a year first, then was friends with my college GF for a year first. Looking back I only have fond memories & wish them the best, they were fairly happy & healthy relationships.

Donal follows up with this comment:

There is a lot of debate about that. Sometimes it doesn’t seem to be a problem, but for most men it does. Might depend on the man, might depend on the woman, might depend on the situation. Overall I’m inclined to argue against friendship first, at least if you have a romantic interest.

Scott puts in his take:

In my own history, I have only known this to work if the woman clearly wants it to be romantic all along. I have been on the receiving end of that where friendships developed into romantic relationships later. But never have I seen it work in the other direction. (Where the guy comes out of the friend file)

Then ‘Feminine but not Feminist’ also comments on something that I said a while ago providing an anecdote:

It’s mostly true that in order for a romantic relationship to develop that the woman must want one pretty much from the start, but there is one exception: when the man becomes more attractive in some major way(s) during the friendship, preferably when there’s a period of little to no visible contact (DS has talked about this before, and he’s right in that sense). For example, in the 6th grade I became very fast friends with a guy in my class. He was like a little brother to me, and I even felt protective of him in a sense, in the same way that a (loving) sister will want to look out for her little brother (for perspective, he was shorter than me and had a little boy “bowl” haircut). But over the summer between 9th and 10th grade, he changed. He shot up to about 4-ish inches taller than me (a lot for one summer!), cut his hair to about an inch long and spiked it with gel, started dressing more grown-up, and his voice got deeper. While I had talked to him on the phone some, I hadn’t seen him even once over the summer. So imagine my surprise when he walked into our first period class like this… I was like :-0 … His frame also changed: he had always been very confident and outgoing, but now he was taking a protective stance / was looking out for me, more so than I could do for him. I became very interested in being more than just friends at that point, and would’ve done so had he made a move to / had I known that he wanted the same.

Fortunately (or unfortunately…), I’ve had a wide variety of experiences on the receiving end of the friend zone, and I have talked with a lot of other men about the friend zone.  So let me explain how it all works. There are FOUR different scenarios that occur.

First, the girl likes you all along: You’re already attractive enough for her, and she was waiting for you to pull the trigger. This jives with Scott’s experiences. Over the course of said relationship, the woman will often hint that you “finally asked her out” or “it was about time” or “I’m so happy that you eventually asked me out” which means that she was interested in you for a while before you asked her out. The keywords that show you that she was attracted prior are “finally” and “about time” and “eventually” signifying a period of time where she was attracted before you pulled the trigger.

The other way you can figure this by straight up asking her when she was first attracted to you. If she’s in a relationship with you sometimes she tells you straight up: “When I first laid eyes on you I liked you.” Well, for most men that doesn’t usually happen. The vast majority of women are not attracted at first sight as we know from the OKCupid studies women rate 80% of men as below average.

Second, you have to change significantly  (e.g. raise your SMV/sexual attractiveness or become more masculine) in a time gap. This scenario manifests if you don’t see the woman for a while, and you make significant changes to your life such as the example that FBNF discusses. For example, if a woman is a female “6” and you’re a male “5”. However, you start lifting, get your stuff together, have a growth spurt, and whatnot and then you come back as a male “7” or “8” she’ll reevaluate you as a potential interest whereas before you were “just a friend.”

A real world example of this aside from FBNF’s example is that most of the men approaching 30 and into their mid 30s will see women who were formerly not interested in their 20s start to become more interested in them because they become more attractive. Part of this is their own declining attractiveness tied in with men’s increasing attractiveness into their 30s. The woman may have gone from a 7->6 whereas the man goes from a 6->8. Since the man is now a “8” and she is a “6” (or may perceive herself as still a “7”), she is then interested in him.

There are a couple of other scenarios which are much less common. I’ll describe them now.

Third, it is possible to where you’re with her the whole time and she gradually notices you. This is the same thing that happens to wives when a fat husband starts working out, getting his crap together, and whatnot. She sees him becoming more attractive — although she’ll only admit that it makes her “uncomfortable” or “unhappy” that you’re doing it — and makes her mind go at 100 miles per hour trying to figure it out. However, this discomfort makes the man more sexually attractive to her, so the bedroom antics will heat up. This is part of what is encompassed under “dread game” although I would disagree specifically of making it seem like you’re going to leave or cheat.

Alternatively, usually some random event in a woman’s life wakes her up to the fact that you ‘re now attractive. For example, a woman’s girlfriends could make a passing comment that “she’s single and how you’re looking like a good catch nowadays.” The woman would then laugh and dismiss what her friend says: “nah, he’s just a friend” or “haha, he’s not really my type.” But it will pique her curiosity, and when she reexamines you and you’re now more attractive than you were in the past. She then comes around and agree with her friend’s assessment that you’re now a catch.

Fourth, it is possible that a girl has put you in the “friend zone” or “undecided” where being undecided on you is not enough information for her to make a decision. Typically, this happens if you’re a strong silent type. Then a major incident wakes her up to the fact that you’re a man.

For example, usually some powerful act of bravery or leadership wakes her up. One such instance would be if someone starts choking and everyone is panicking. But you know what to do. You calmly run over to the situation, and do the heimlich maneuver and the person is fine. Then you take control of the situation and calm everyone down from panicking. You saved a life and exhibited leadership under pressure. A woman is now attracted to you.

Alternatively, a different such situation is a man displaying social dominance. If a girl is giving you crap or gossiping and then you tell her to stop. You two get in an “argument” and then you ream her out until she apologizes. This type of social dominance over other women (or potentially men as well) will make women take interest and be attracted to you. The power of your personality and your status rises to where she is attracted.

Another such example would be you’re in the same church. You’re mere acquaintances. However, a Bible study is being started up soon and you’re picked as a leader. You facilitate an awesome discussion while being charismatic and funny. She becomes interested in you after this. You were merely “meh” before, but you’ve displayed a significant aspect of social charisma that she didn’t know you had before.

Conclusions and escaping the friend zone

These are the four main scenarios that you will encounter with women who you may have been “friends” with before, but then then you were able to date/court them later.

  • You were her friend, but she always liked you. She was waiting for you to ask her out.
  • You were her friend, and you underwent some change to become a man while you didn’t see her for a while. When you meet her again you impress her.
  • You were her friend, but you are developing into a man. Then one day her friend or some other random act of God makes her reconsider you and her eyes are proverbially opened.
  • You were her friend, and she doesn’t know a certain side of you. An inadvertent crisis or significant display of social dominance or leadership shows her a side of you that she never saw before. She reconsiders you now as more attractive because of this masculine display.

These are the scenarios where men “escape” the friend zone. Aside from the one where she always liked you, they all have to do with YOU becoming more attractive by being a man or some other manly display involving confidence, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, or the like. Hence, if you want to escape the friend zone become more masculine. You know: Be attractive. Don’t be unattractive. Women are starving for masculinity in today’s culture.

It is important to understand that not every girl will “come around” even if you become more attractive. Sometimes you really aren’t “a woman’s type” or whatever reason. Maybe she won’t consider you because she doesn’t like men of a different race or ethnicity. Maybe she likes specific type of man such as a jock in her sport of choice and usually if she’s a athlete too;  your guitar skills might not even phase her. Maybe you’re not educated enough, and she wants to go for a doctorate and is only interested in marrying another doctoral candidate. Whatever the case just like some women aren’t your type even if they are attractive so too a woman may decide that you’re “not her type” no matter how attractive you may become. If you become famous all bets are off though. Fame is a great equalizer regardless of “type” for women.

This is why I don’t recommend trying to escape the friend zone with women. Rather go meet more women who don’t have preconceived notions of who you are and are interested in you right off the bat. Thus, I side with the manosphere and Donal’s recommendation that you should not try to become a friend of a woman first before asking her out on a date or whatever you want to call that stuff nowadays.

If she gives you the “we should be friends before dating” she’s probably not attracted to you otherwise she would be giddy to go out on a date with you. The exception is if you can figure out that is a hard rule that she has with ALL men even ones she thinks are attractive, or if at a certain period in her life she has sworn off relationships (although this would make me suspicious in a yellow/red flag depending on the reason — especially if a man was the cause). However, that’s rarely the case from what I’ve seen.

I think I hit all of the scenarios, but if you can think of another that I missed post a comment.

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70 Responses to Understanding the friend zone and escaping it

  1. Scott says:

    Yes.

    Your 4 descriptors I think are in one way or another compaitable with what I was trying to say. To add a wrinkle, my most “famous” of these was with my first wife.

    1. We met when we were 3.
    2. We moved away when I was 5, but our families kept in touch.
    3. One summer, when I was pre-adolescent, we went to visit them and I remember having the distinct feeling of a “crush” on her, and she made it pretty obvious too. But we were like, 12 and the visit was only for a weekend.
    4. I proceeded to have girlfriends in high school, but every time they came to visit, she was quite obvious about her feelings for me. (Not obsequious, but sending loud signals). It wasn’t that I didn’t find her attractive. I was always either in a relationship or felt the distance was a stupid idea, or that I didn’t want to ruin a perfectly good friendship.
    5. Finally the planets aligned (I was between girlfiriends and she moved out to California for college) and I made my move.

    This was considered by everyone around us as a fairy tale “best friends who fell in love” story which was more or less true. The ending was a collosal failure of human sin and stupidity, but that is another story altogether.

  2. RS says:

    Good thoughts DS. I made this comment on Donal’s post, but I figured I’d copy it here since this really a better spot to discuss it. Basically I think it has to do with whether a girl “respects you as a man” or not. This seems to be the underlying factor in all your scenarios too -either she always had respect for you, or you did something/changed in a way that caused her to develop that respect. If you have it, you can move easily from friend to romantic partner; if not, you won’t, and (this may be more debatable) you probably won’t have a very strong or satisfying friendship either.
    My two cents:
    – It won’t work if your frame is, “She probably wouldn’t respond to overt romantic overtures, but maybe I can become friends first, she’ll get to know me, then when we’re more comfortable and know eachother I can make a move/she’ll see how I great I am and want a relationship/something will happen to make her like me romantically.”
    Most people can tell pretty clearly when someone is attracted to them, especially women. If you give her that “vibe” (and it’s really hard not to if you are attracted to her), she will be (subconsciously) confused when you only make overtures of friendship. Moreover, if your frame is “she probably wouldn’t respond to overt romance”…she will naturally follow your cues, and not respond to overt romance.
    – It can work if your frame is “She seems interesting/attractive, but I’m definitely not sure she’s relationship/wife material. I’ll let her be friends, but no further until I figure out whether she’s worth it.” Basically, you have to friendzone her, then allow her to prove herself worthy of you.
    Most women decide very very quickly (we’re talking under 10 seconds of meeting) whether a guy is potential romance material. If you put yourself in the “not” category, good luck getting out. If you’re in the “yes” category, you can be friends for a long time then move to a romantic relationship. She doesn’t necessarily have to have strong romantic feelings or desire for you, but she always has to feel that you are someone she could desire in that way.

    In my experience, pretty much all of my good female friends had some level of attraction to me – not necessarily that they wanted a relationship, but that they could want one. They have to feel you are desireable, because that makes you valuable. Even if one/both of you are married or otherwise unavailable – they have to feel that, in some other world, you might have made a good husband for them. Otherwise (talking matchmaking/courtship now) why would they try to connect their single friends with you? (except with you as the “solution” to an unattractive friend’s singleness). When I have had female “friends” who haven’t been at all attracted to me (classic friendzone) they usually haven’t ended up being the best of friends, and I often started to feel a little “used,” treated as a convenient comfort/conversation/activity partner rather than a valued personal friend. Basically, if they strongly respects you, women will find you somewhat attractive…if they don’t find you attractive, it probably means they don’t really respect you.

  3. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ DS

    A real world example of this aside from FBNF’s example is that most of the men approaching 30 and into their mid 30s will see women who were formerly not interested in their 20s start to become more interested in them because they become more attractive.

    This might sound nit-picky, but the way this is worded gives the impression that simply by getting older a man will be more attractive. But this only applies when the man is doing other things to make himself attractive (lifting weights, gaining frame, etc); the increase in age in and of itself doesn’t add to a man’s attractiveness. If a man that has been unattractive in his 20’s does not actively work on those things that will make him more attractive, then getting older will be about as detrimental to him as it is for a woman, but in different ways.

  4. thedeti says:

    Excellent, thorough discussion. This pretty much nails it.

    The bottom line, though, is that for men, breaking out of the friend zone is exceedingly rare. It’s not common enough to make it worth the effort for most men, most of the time.

    Another thought I have is that if you break out of the friendzone with a particular girl, most of the time you will not know why you did. All that you really need to know is that you were friendzoned and aren’t now, with this particular woman.

    But, if you break out of the friendzone, it seems to me it would be very easy for a woman to put you back there if you do anything “wrong” or “unattractive”. So breaking out of the friendzone could put one in a precarious position with this new romantic/sexual interest.

  5. ChildofRa says:

    Well couldn’t the same be said about men friendzoning women? I have had a crush on my guy friend since high school, considers me a friend and thats pretty much it

  6. @ FBNF

    This might sound nit-picky, but the way this is worded gives the impression that simply by getting older a man will be more attractive. But this only applies when the man is doing other things to make himself attractive (lifting weights, gaining frame, etc); the increase in age in and of itself doesn’t add to a man’s attractiveness. If a man that has been unattractive in his 20’s does not actively work on those things that will make him more attractive, then getting older will be about as detrimental to him as it is for a woman, but in different ways.

    You are correct. If a man is maturing and becoming more confident in himself, firm in his boundaries, a leader in his relationships, and the like he will be more attractive.

    If he is still “hanging out in his parents basement playing video games” and things of that nature and not developing into a man then he wont be more attractive.

  7. @ deti

    The bottom line, though, is that for men, breaking out of the friend zone is exceedingly rare. It’s not common enough to make it worth the effort for most men, most of the time.

    I wouldn’t say it’s rare, but usually it takes years if not months because a woman will have to see rather significant changes in you to see you as attractive.

    Over those months and years it’s better to invest your time into other woman than in the false hope that a woman MAY like you in the future.

    Cost benefit for time it’s just not even a comparison. Putting time and energy into breaking out of the friend zone is just not worth it.

    But, if you break out of the friendzone, it seems to me it would be very easy for a woman to put you back there if you do anything “wrong” or “unattractive”. So breaking out of the friendzone could put one in a precarious position with this new romantic/sexual interest.

    Yep, her preconceived notions hold her back from. Hence, go meet women who don’t have preconceived notions of you.

  8. @ RS

    Basically, if they strongly respects you, women will find you somewhat attractive…if they don’t find you attractive, it probably means they don’t really respect you.

    Yep, [sexual] attractiveness to a woman is tied directly to how much she respects you.

    If she doesn’t respect you often she is indifferent. If you’re way below her on the totem poll (in her mind) then you’re a creep and/or she treats you with contempt.

    However, if you act masculine you get respect, begrudging or not, which leads her to be attracted to you.

  9. @ ChildofRa

    Well couldn’t the same be said about men friendzoning women? I have had a crush on my guy friend since high school, considers me a friend and thats pretty much it

    The way women overcome the “friend zone” with men is become more physically attractive.

    This can happen if a fat woman gets slim, or a slim women works out.

    Other factors may include: long hair, wearing feminine clothing such as dresses and skirts, light but flattering makeup, etc.

    Basically, improving physical appearance with men is the way to overcome the friend zone.

    Generally, though, men tend to select for both beauty and personality since we are the ones asking out. So a beautiful girl may be friend zoned if she has a crappy personality too although that’s rarer than women being friend zone because she doesn’t meet a man’s attraction threshold.

  10. Regular Guy says:

    In regards to the friendzone: I’ve been there, but got out a different way.

    I had a crush on a woman in church who was flirty and basically used me for emotional support after a recent divorce of hers. I was a total blue pill fool. I got fed up and told her I had feelings for her which she made clear she did not have for me. She wanted to remain friends but I refused and never saw her again. I was proud of myself for walking away.

    No more of this sitcom-“Friends”-mainstream BS attitude toward dating. The next woman I dated, I made it clear prior to date #1 that this was in fact a date for the purposes of evaluating each other for marriage. When the relationship ended because she was moving away, she wanted to continue to hangout but I refused to be another woman’s emotional doormat and denied the request. I wished her the best on the way out the door.

    Having clarity of where you stand is freeing. There’s dignity in getting out of the friendzone on your terms. Why force something that isn’t there?

  11. SFC Ton says:

    Being friends for a year before landing a date doesn’t seem like a very efficient reproduction/ marriage strategy.

    How many lady friends would you have to keep around for that to pay off? 208 to have a date each Friday night? Double or triple that to deal with flakes and no shows? I think what Scot describes about stars lining up is pretty common but that really isn’t the freind zone

    The freind zone is when she says ljbf and the beta pines away. What Scot laid out is really a version of spinning plates.

    But as always I don’t get having lady friends. She going to help improve my deadlift? Kill and clean game? Work on my bike with me? I have problems with my super charger. Will she know how to replace a boost valve? Etc.etc.

  12. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    The freind zone is when she says ljbf and the beta pines away.

    It can and does go the other way around: the guy can insist on just being friends while the girl pines away. It’s happened to me.

  13. Novaseeker says:

    I agree that it’s very inefficient for guys to try to get out of a woman’s friendzone. It’s possible, but it takes a long time, and the opportunity cost of foregoing other women in the meantime is staggeringly high. It’s far better to move on and find a woman to whom you are attracted but who does not FZ you.

    For women, if you are in a guy’s friendzone it almost always has to do with him either (1) being with someone else, (2) not being physically attracted to you or (3) gay. The first circumstance can obviously change, and that can get women out of the FZ. The second one can possibly be changed if the woman in question hasn’t optimized her appearance — if she has, then she’s out of luck there. The third one also can’t be changed. So, really it isn’t a great idea for women to be waiting to get out of the FZ either.

  14. tz says:

    Philea and Eros are utterly different. In the Four Loves, CS Lewis notes that friends are side by side, lovers are face to face.

    They are so disjoint that it is like asking if a woman who gives you a haircut might also be able to escape “the stylist zone” and fix your car either in addition to or instead of cutting your hair.

    The purposes for which they were created are completely different.

    The full quote from Lewis:

    “Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend. The rest of us know that enough we can have erotic love and friendship for the same person yet in some ways nothing is less like a Friendship than a love-affair. Lovers are always talking to one another about their love; Friends hardly ever about their Friendship. Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest. Above all, Eros (while it lasts) is necessarily between two only. But two, far from being the necessary number for Friendship, is not even the best. And the reason for this is important.

    … In each of my friends there is something that only some other friend can fully bring out. By myself I am not large enough to call the whole man into activity; I want other lights than my own to show all his facets… Hence true Friendship is the least jealous of loves. Two friends delight to be joined by a third, and three by a fourth, if only the newcomer is qualified to become a real friend. They can then say, as the blessed souls say in Dante, ‘Here comes one who will augment our loves.’ For in this love ‘to divide is not to take away.”

    ― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves

  15. tz says:

    I need to add to Lewis that it is perhaps a worse mistake to consider Eros as an extension of Friendship. That is the Beta Orbiter’s mistake. The woman wants friendship, to share common interest, the man wants Eros. One may be interested in the other’s interests because they are specifically and deeply interested in the other – and that is where the signals get crossed. A man and woman both directed to the interest, v.s. a man directed to a woman and through that her interests. Or a woman directed to a man and his interests because they are his – note this is actually what a helpmeet is.

  16. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ tz

    I could be mistaken, but I take your comment to mean that you don’t believe it’s possible to experience phileo and eros love with the same person because the two are polar opposites, like magnets. But Scripture commands wives to phileo love their husbands, and obviously wives should eros love their husbands also. How would you reconcile that?

    @ anyone that thinks men and women can’t (or shouldn’t) be friends

    So considering what Scripture says to wives about phileo loving their husbands, isn’t it prudent to make sure that you can be friends with a girl before seriously considering her for marriage? Not “just friends” obviously, but not ‘just’ courtship/eros either. I would think both should be there at the same time, considering that particular commandment to wives (which also proves that it is possible, since it wouldn’t have been commanded of us if it weren’t). I mean, isn’t phileo love “brotherly love” or in other words, friends?

  17. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ tz

    Or a woman directed to a man and his interests because they are his – note this is actually what a helpmeet is.

    Yes; well said. There’s more to being a helpmeet of course, but this is an oft overlooked part of it. Or rather, if a wife truly is living as a helpmeet, then she will do this automatically.

  18. On the whole “friends” issue — I know I, when I was still unmarried, always approached every possible relationship as a “just friends” situation. To do otherwise would have been most unwise. I will also teach my daughters to do the same. All potential relationships must be approached with your head, which means that they are to be approached intellectually.

    A girl who adheres to this philosophy is not overly emotional, thinks things through before she makes a decision, and, when marriage vows are spoken, be in for life. She will be this way because she has made decisions intellectually, not allowing her emotions to take control of her. She’ll be with you through thick and thin regardless of circumstances. Love is always a decision of the will, a movement of the intellect. The emotions play a role, but their role should be minimized as much as possible. Emotions are unreliable, and any girl who gets giddy and weak-kneed with adoration is someone to be suspicious of, because that’s never going to last. A reliable, decent girl will be one who makes hard-core judgments with a good, solid brain. She’ll also be a good mother and a good homeschooler, too, so you should really think that through — do you want a beautiful, sweet, yet empty-headed doll, or do you want a solid-thinking, albeit maybe more plain-looking, cerebral lady who will run your home well and raise your children in a solid way of living?

    Sometimes those who hold you at arm’s length for a little while and approach possible relationships with extreme caution are the best.

  19. thedeti says:

    “considering what Scripture says to wives about phileo loving their husbands, isn’t it prudent to make sure that you can be friends with a girl before seriously considering her for marriage? Not “just friends” obviously, but not ‘just’ courtship/eros either. I would think both should be there at the same time, considering that particular commandment to wives ”

    FBNF, I think I know what you’re saying, but “friends” isn’t really the way to put it.

    Probably a better way to put it so it’s more useful and meaningful to men is that the man and woman are compatible. That is, they are of more or less the same mind on most things like religion, finances, children, etc. She is willing to submit to his leadership. (Contrary to what some believe, there is NOT “mutual submission” in the context of marriage.) And they have more or less the same temperament. They enjoy doing things together. They enjoy doing the same things together. So it’s less “friendship” and more companionship. It’s less like you call up your college friend and meet for dinner; and more like having a committed roommate. It is like having a hand fit in a glove, and less like having two matching pillows on a sofa.

  20. thedeti says:

    “On the whole “friends” issue — I know I, when I was still unmarried, always approached every possible relationship as a “just friends” situation. To do otherwise would have been most unwise. I will also teach my daughters to do the same. All potential relationships must be approached with your head, which means that they are to be approached intellectually. ”

    I’ve approached and known, and were interested in, women who exuded that standoffish, “keep your distance”, “just friends”, stance with me and most other men. Most of them married, but poorly, and are now divorced and remarried. A good number never married. A few are still married and, as far as I can tell, are married happily.

    The problem with it is that women filter out too many good men with this stance. It keeps good men from approaching. It keeps good men from attempting to demonstrate their value and interest as men. It keeps good men from trying. If she is saying “just friends”, good men read this as “I am not interested in you as a man. You’re a “nice guy”, but I just don’t see you IN THAT WAY.” This is particularly dangerous now, when most men are scared to death to approach women for fear of claims of sexual harassment, rape, domestic violence, sexual abuse, etc.

    Women have to do things to give men the “green light” to approach. Women have to signal readiness and interest. Taking the “just friends” stance tells men to “stay away” and “don’t get too close” and “you’re gonna have to work work work for it”. This is the wrong way to go about this, particularly in our religious communities, I think.

  21. thedeti says:

    And, taking the “just friends” stance also tells men:

    “I am not ready for a relationship with a man.”

    “I do not want a man.”

    “I am afraid of men. I do not trust men.”

    “I am not open to a relationship with a man except on my terms exclusively. A man’s terms, wants, needs and desires are not at all important to me. Any relationship I have with a man will be on my terms, or not at all.”

  22. “I am not open to a relationship with a man except on my terms exclusively. A man’s terms, wants, needs and desires are not at all important to me. Any relationship I have with a man will be on my terms, or not at all.”

    That’s sometimes the best approach, but as usual you had to throw in that second sentence, which is ludicrous. A woman who is very guarded and careful is not saying that a man’s needs, terms, wants and desires are not important to her, and you know it. (I had to laugh when I saw you wrote that because it is so like you to immediately jump to that conclusion.)

    The first and third sentences, however, sometimes are the most prudent approach. Especially if she has found her trust betrayed in the past, she will be more inclined to be on her guard. She will live her own life and be a bother to nobody, but still interested in what may happen in the future, but she won’t predicate all her happiness on whether or not she gets married. She will be outcome independent. I am a little unsure as to just where the problem is with that; you seem to think there is one.

    When it comes right down to it, your quote is basically what the men in the manosphere say anyway — just switch it around: “I am not open to a relationship with a woman except on my terms exclusively. A woman’s terms, wants, needs and desires are not at all important to me. Any relationship I have with a woman will be on my terms, or not at all.” Would you not agree?

  23. thedeti says:

    MitS:

    You missed the entire point of my comment, which was:

    “women filter out too many good men with this stance. It keeps good men from approaching. It keeps good men from attempting to demonstrate their value and interest as men. It keeps good men from trying. If she is saying “just friends”, good men read this as “I am not interested in you as a man. You’re a “nice guy”, but I just don’t see you IN THAT WAY.””

  24. thedeti says:

    “Especially if she has found her trust betrayed in the past, she will be more inclined to be on her guard. She will live her own life and be a bother to nobody, but still interested in what may happen in the future, but she won’t predicate all her happiness on whether or not she gets married. She will be outcome independent. I am a little unsure as to just where the problem is with that; you seem to think there is one. ”

    I’m not going to belabor this too much. But — the above is diametrically opposed to the incessant drumbeat that good Christian women want nothing other than to meet and marry good men, and be wives and mothers. It’s also at odds with the rejoinder I always hear that our nation’s churches are brimming over with such women, and that they are just waiting for good Christian men to snap them up and get them to marriage altars posthaste.

    I won’t respond further on this.

  25. thedeti says:

    actually I will respond further. It’s nonsense to endorse this:

    “I am not open to a relationship with a man except on my terms exclusively. Any relationship I have with a man will be on my terms, or not at all.”

    and then say this:

    “That’s sometimes the best approach, but as usual you had to throw in that second sentence, which is ludicrous. A woman who is very guarded and careful is not saying that a man’s needs, terms, wants and desires are not important to her, and you know it.”

    A woman who is taking the position that a relationship with her will be on her exclusive terms is saying PRECISELY that a man’s wants, needs, and desires are not at all important to her.

    I said nothing about being “very guarded and careful”. That can be prudent advice, but women also take this way too far, and thus run into the very problem I wrote of, which is excluding and filtering out perfectly good men. No one is telling women to throw caution to the wind. I am suggesting that women might be a bit more open and a bit more willing to give good men a “green light”, instead of insisting on the sterile, antiseptic “just friends” stance which will dissuade many good men away. That’s not good for her, or them. Being overly cautious helps no one.

    It’s hard enough for Christians to meet and marry. We need to stop throwing up roadblocks and helping them, not hindering them and hampering them in their efforts.

  26. @ deti

    Speaking as a single man here’s what I’d say to these:

    “I am not open to a relationship with a man except on my terms exclusively. Any relationship I have with a man will be on my terms, or not at all.”

    That’s sometimes the best approach, but as usual you had to throw in that second sentence, which is ludicrous. A woman who is very guarded and careful is not saying that a man’s needs, terms, wants and desires are not important to her, and you know it.

    A woman who is guarded and careful about men has lost her innocence. Cock carouselers or women who wish they were on the CC are the ones who have lost their innocence.

    These are women that I would next. The ones that can’t trust men anymore. This is elaborated in the next part…

    The first and third sentences, however, sometimes are the most prudent approach. Especially if she has found her trust betrayed in the past, she will be more inclined to be on her guard. She will live her own life and be a bother to nobody, but still interested in what may happen in the future, but she won’t predicate all her happiness on whether or not she gets married.

    The fact that another man violated her trust has nothing to do with me. I’m not going to sit around and try to play therapist to get her past it. And who is to even say she will get past it at all ever?

    I’ll pray for the girl. I may even try to help her through it somehow if she’s a friend (although it would be better for her to be mentored by older women). But I would not even consider such a girl for marriage.

    Women don’t understand that if they’re guarded or have had their trust broken by other men, or are skittish about men, or other types of things like this that they’re going to be driving men off. Usually they’re signalling by body language or how they interact or talk with men that they don’t want to be in a relationship. And men will stay away.

    She will live on her own and bother nobody. Jaded and cynical women have this attitude. And yep… it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

  27. “A woman who is guarded and careful about men has lost her innocence.”

    That is not true at all. You are making an assumption that is based solely on your own perception There are plenty of guarded, careful women who have never compromised their morals; in fact, they have defended them firmly. Undoubtedly there are some who have lost their innocence, but that is not true in all cases, and you are wrong to make a blanket statement such as this one.

    Nobody is telling anybody to “play therapist”, as one would call it. In fact, I’ve known married women who are themselves quite guarded and quiet, and their husbands are most definitely not the “therapist” type. All seems well on the surface, but then again sometimes the greatest storms brew under a surface as smooth and flawless as Carerra marble…..so I could be wrong.

  28. @ MitS

    So there are exceptions to the rule… but it’s a rule for a reason.

    All things being equal I’m going to ask out the woman who has youthful exuberance and innocence over the guarded, careful woman any day. As will the majority of most men.

    The simple fact is that women who were “burned” by other men or had their trust “broken” tend to carry them with her instead of give them to Jesus. It affects their personality with men, and make it more likely that men won’t ask them out.

    By encouraging women to be guarded and careful all you’re doing is to make them less like to be asked out by men.

    By “guarded” and “careful” I mean women who are generally distrustful of men and their motives. This leads to second guessing men and their decisions or constantly questioning his leadership. This leads to nagging and disrespect. Morality is not in question here because even though it can happen to CCers it can happen to women on the straight and narrow too.

  29. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ DS

    There’s nothing wrong with being somewhat on guard, particularly in today’s culture. Keep in mind that Scripture tells us all to “guard our hearts,” which means we must do so if we are intent on keeping our innocence. One can be too much on guard of course, but to suggest that someone who is at all careful and on guard has lost their innocence blah blah blah is not always the case. And it’s not about “exceptions to the rule.” Are you not in any way guarded about women? Are you not careful about the women you are willing to consider? Do you have good reason to be based on the way you witness people behaving and/or based on ways you have been mistreated by women in the past? Well it’s the same thing here: a woman who is completely carefree and not in any way on guard is a woman who is very unwise, particularly in today’s culture that seeks to have her be anything but innocent. Those who aren’t careful are the ones that throw caution to the wind and get themselves onto the CC in the first place.

  30. thedeti says:

    A “guarded and careful” woman doesn’t have to have “lost her innocence” by having had illicit sex.

    There are plenty of “guarded and careful” virgins out there who have “lost their innocence” with too much interaction with the world: Social media, excessive pop culture consumption and careerism.

    There are plenty of “guarded and careful” virgins out there who have “lost their innocence” because their overprotective, frightened, helicopter parents (usually a scared to death mother who means well but goes way overboard) shield and insulate their children from the world. This leads to those women developing personalities full of fear, angst and distrust of literally everything, including themselves and the men around them.

    A “guarded and careful” woman is going to guard and caretake herself right into spinsterhood.

  31. @ FBNF

    I agree with deti here. That’s why I defined “guarded and careful”:

    By “guarded” and “careful” I mean women who are generally distrustful of men and their motives. This leads to second guessing men and their decisions or constantly questioning his leadership. This leads to nagging and disrespect. Morality is not in question here because even though it can happen to CCers it can happen to women on the straight and narrow too.

    I suspect women view “guarded and careful” in a different context than men which is why I said I was specifically not talking about morality. What I said above is what men mean by “guarded and careful.”

    The youthful innocence we are talking about is playfulness, and the kind of attitude how young girls often are excited about every little thing when they go up and tell their daddy. They trust him and they see the world with innocent eyes. It makes men want to provide and protect her, so she doesn’t see the harshness of the world.

    Women who have lost this type of attitude are just cynical around men, question his motives, question his decisions, and are a pain in the butt. No thank you.

  32. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ deti

    FBNF, I think I know what you’re saying, but “friends” isn’t really the way to put it.

    Probably a better way to put it so it’s more useful and meaningful to men is that the man and woman are compatible. That is, they are of more or less the same mind on most things like religion, finances, children, etc. She is willing to submit to his leadership. (Contrary to what some believe, there is NOT “mutual submission” in the context of marriage.) And they have more or less the same temperament. They enjoy doing things together. They enjoy doing the same things together. So it’s less “friendship” and more companionship. It’s less like you call up your college friend and meet for dinner; and more like having a committed roommate. It is like having a hand fit in a glove, and less like having two matching pillows on a sofa.

    Yeah you’re right, the word “companion” works very well here. I guess it’s just one of those differences in the way men and women communicate. Like if a woman is the kind that wants to “start out as friends and let something develop from there” what she means in man-speak is “I want to spend a little bit of time getting to know you prior to starting a romantic relationship to see if we can be compatible companions, because I won’t be able to accurately assess that if I let my emotions have any headway (as always happens when romantic relationships start), which would be detrimental if we in fact are not compatible companions but don’t find out before one or both of us gets badly hurt.” Hopefully that makes some sort of sense.

  33. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ DS

    By “guarded” and “careful” I mean women who are generally distrustful of men and their motives.

    Ah, I see. Sorry, I missed that part before. That is what I meant when I said it can be taken too far.

    The youthful innocence we are talking about is playfulness, and the kind of attitude how young girls often are excited about every little thing when they go up and tell their daddy. They trust him and they see the world with innocent eyes. It makes men want to provide and protect her, so she doesn’t see the harshness of the world.

    Makes sense. FYI, one can still have this attitude while maintaining a **healthy** level of “guarding your heart.”

  34. thedeti says:

    The problem with “guarded and careful” is that it is a roadblock to what Christian women who want to marry should be doing. These women should be putting themselves out there and making themselves open to approach.

    It’s a fact of life for men that they have to approach and risk rejection.

    It’s a fact of life for men that they have to hold back their commitment and give it only to a woman worthy of their time, money, and labor.

    It’s a fact of life for women that they have to risk being approached by men they aren’t attracted to or aroused by.

    It’s a fact of life for women that they have to reject men they don’t find arousing.

    It’s a fact of life for women that they have to risk getting hurt.

    It’s a fact of life for a woman that she must hold back her body and give it only to a man worthy of her body.

    Being “Guarded and careful” to the extreme the women are advocating here does no one any service, least of all the women advocating it.

  35. thedeti says:

    It’s kind of aggravating to see:

    1. Men offer suggestions to Christian women on how to be approachable.
    2. Women throwing up roadblocks and excuses why women cannot or should not implement said suggestions.

    I don’t get it. I really don’t.

  36. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ deti

    Being “Guarded and careful” to the extreme the women are advocating here does no one any service, least of all the women advocating it.

    I’m not advocating it to the extreme, just a healthy level of it. I am NOT advocating having a general distrust of men so that you aren’t open to approach, aren’t nice and pleasant when you are approached, don’t smile, don’t engage in conversation, aren’t willing to spend more time with a guy (unless he’s an obvious PUA who’s pushing for a ONS, that’s a whole different matter). What I am advocating is to be wise: don’t blindly trust guys **that are exhibiting bright red flags**, don’t “go back to his place” if you know darn well what he means by that and you aren’t down for it, don’t go to frat parties, don’t get drunk, don’t cross pre-set boundaries that you’ve set for yourself (for example, mine would be: don’t do any physical things with a man in private that you wouldn’t be comfortable doing in public) and the like.

    I don’t call that “being too cautious and guarded,” do you guys?

  37. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    don’t cross pre-set boundaries that you’ve set for yourself

    That should say “don’t cross pre-set PHYSICAL boundaries that you’ve set for yourself.

  38. thedeti says:

    “I want to spend a little bit of time getting to know you prior to starting a romantic relationship to see if we can be compatible companions, because I won’t be able to accurately assess that if I let my emotions have any headway (as always happens when romantic relationships start), which would be detrimental if we in fact are not compatible companions but don’t find out before one or both of us gets badly hurt.” Hopefully that makes some sort of sense.”

    It kind of makes sense. But if a girl thinks she is at all interested in a man, she MUST avoid using the word “friends” in any way, shape manner or form. If I’m interested in a woman and she even hints around the word “friend” or “friends”, it’s over. I know I’ve just been friendzoned.

  39. “The youthful innocence we are talking about is playfulness, and the kind of attitude how young girls often are excited about every little thing when they go up and tell their daddy”

    I understand why you like that, but this doesn’t last. This is what I’d call the “fun” aspect of life, and it will go away rapidly when reality sets in. There simply isn’t time for this when the marriage is in full swing, there are deadlines to meet, responsibilities that can’t wait, etc. Reality is harsh, it deals with people in all the nonfun ways. I know, I used to believe that lasted as well; Helen Andelin addresses childlikeness in her book, in fact the only area where I can’t buy her message. That is the stuff of my little four year old daughter, not the grown woman who needs to finish checking the stack of math papers, start dinner by four, make sure a child is practicing an instrument for his allotted hour, have dinner on the table at five sharp, make sure everyone has showered and brushed teeth and in bed by eight so they will start on time the next day. After that is over, there are evening chores to be done, and perhaps a few more papers to grade (I prefer to do this at night anyway, since nobody is interrupting me, and I have to put myself through algebra again so I can at least keep one step ahead of my son). And this is just one day. You see the system? There is no time for nonsense or goofing off. And in the middle of this is the fact that you have to be physically available to the husband at all times and ready to jump when he says “come here, honey.” Get it?

    There isn’t time for playing around. That’s for little girls. Not for adult women. And when you do think, gee, I think I’ll let my hair down and be flirty with him, or just relax and have fun, look out — it will come back to bite you later. You have to be on the ball, 24/7, or you’ll be mopping up the mess for several days afterward. No, thank you, not for me. I can’t be spending several days with a messed up schedule because I did that; I have a kid heading into high school and I have to be on top of all his courses. I’m responsible for all of it, and if he doesn’t get a good scholarship to get into a good college, I can tell you somebody in the family who will be REALLY upset with me — and it isn’t me, and it isn’t my son. I don’t have to tell you who it is.

  40. Point — stick with the real serious girl, I’m serious about this. You may not have much fun, but plenty will get done, goals will be met, your homeschooling will be successful.

  41. Oh, one other thing:

    “The youthful innocence we are talking about is playfulness”

    Well, I have seen a-plenty of instances in which a girl tried to be playful, and boy, oh boy did it backfire. Tried to tease, joke around a little and have fun with him; only to get into serious trouble for “disrespect” — and she was confused and scared to even try later. Every instance of “gee, maybe I could just relax a little around him and laugh and have fun” became “wait a minute, I got in trouble last time, and I have no idea what I did or said; what if I get in trouble again? It’s not worth it. I need to conserve my energy for the things I have to do.”

    Traditionally minded married men do not want a wife who is fun and playful who relaxes with them. They want a wife who is obedient, hardworking, nose to the grindstone who jumps to it, but who stops immediately to attend to their needs when they want relations. Maybe since a number of you are not yet married, you think you want the playful fun girl, but your tune will change drastically once you are married and there are responsibilities and babies start coming. You will want her different, and different fast so that the responsibilities and obligations are attended to.

    I am not coming at this from a cynical perspective, I am coming at this from dealing with hard reality. Life is not fun and games, nor is it meant to be a place where we’ll be happy. We were not promised happiness in this world, only in the next. In the next world we will receive a great reward if we remain faithful to our promises and to God in this life.

  42. @ MitS

    I know couples who keep the playful attitudes through life, housework, and whatever it is. I know it’s possible. In fact, my mentor is one of them with his wife and multiple children. I know that’s part of what I’m looking for, and I know it will help even in the roles and responsibilities of Scripture.

    Same for women who try to be playful and get a bad response. If a man gets a bad response if he asks a woman out should that deter him for ever trying again? No. He should know that sometimes it’s not the right person, not the right time, not the right X, Y. Z for whatever reason. Both women and men do a good job at making a prisoner of themselves in their own mind because they ‘fear’ reactions and communication.

    It seems your experiences with men in whatever circle you are in have been poor, but this is simply not the case with the men reading my blog or other manosphere related blogs. Please, tone back talking about “those” men in your life as it is not useful advice to the men here.

  43. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2015/04/15 | Free Northerner

  44. thedeti says:

    ‘There is no time for nonsense or goofing off. *** There isn’t time for playing around. That’s for little girls. Not for adult women.’

    And yet, you somehow have time to come onto manosphere blogs and write lengthy paragraph on paragraph of how busy your life is, and how harried and frazzled and worked fingers to the bone you are.

    You somehow have time to write lecture after finger wagging lecture at men about how unrealistic they are and what brutish pigs they are because they would like to have one woman who isn’t guarding herself to the point of cloistering.

  45. I write for a living. This is why I’m on my computer a lot. It’s our extra income.

  46. thedeti says:

    I can’t imagine your lecturing men about how terrible and depraved you believe them to be supplements your income.

  47. You know perfectly well I never said you were “depraved”, etc. That is a complete figment of your imagination. What I’ve said is plain, simple, hard reality. We’d all do better facing reality, whether it serves us or not. Reality is that life is what it is. It is what you make it. Romance is a big huge joke and everybody knows it. It simply doesn’t exist except in a fleeting la-la land moment. Marriage is a tough, hard, 24 hour a day job. It’s not a state in life for people who hope to be happy in it. If you are, that’s nice. But is it entirely a matter of chance. I never bad-mouthed you, I am simply stating the cold hard facts, and men usually like cold, hard facts.

  48. thedeti says:

    MitS:

    The idea that there is no playfulness, no joy, no romance, no fun, no enjoyment, not even a little bit, in a marriage or man/woman is just not true. I certainly don’t have the best marriage. Anyone who knows my story can attest to that, and I certainly will. But it isn’t all drudgery and slop and nose-to-the-grindstone, all the time, 24/7/365, and if it is, you’re doing it wrong. I simply refuse to let a marriage, even a mediocre one, to be that way.

    Relationships and marriage are hard work. But they are not all hard work. There are moments here and there. There are simple comforts like foot rubs and back scratches and a hug and a kiss after a long day. There is a short prayer just before bed. There are glasses of wine with the TV show or movie rental. There are dinners at the local restaurant after the kids go to the grandparents. If you won’t do those things for yourselves and for each other, then you’re doing it wrong.

    If you cannot take a moment to enjoy your spouse and allow him/her to enjoy you, even a fleeting moment, then you’re doing it wrong.

  49. thedeti says:

    “Life is not fun and games, nor is it meant to be a place where we’ll be happy.”

    Maybe not. But we can get a little joy out of it, if we know where to look and how to go about it.
    _____________

    “I am come that they may have life, and have it abundantly.”

    “And the fruits of the Spirit are these: Love, JOY, peace….” (emphasis added)

    Have you read the story of Jesus at the wedding at Cana? Jesus was there to perform His first miracle. It was a WEDDING. He went to have a good time with His friends, and He did. He ate good food, He drank good wine, He danced and talked and enjoyed Himself and enjoyed watching His family and friends enjoy themselves.

    Life is a lot of shit. But not all the time, not every minute of every single stinking day.

  50. Very familiar with Cana. I apply it to my life with the understanding that God always sees the distress of people (married couples in this case) and it will all even out in the end.

    Joy — yes, indeed, and I get much joy out of life through my children and good friends.

    “If you won’t do those things for yourselves and for each other, then you’re doing it wrong. If you cannot take a moment to enjoy your spouse and allow him/her to enjoy you, even a fleeting moment, then you’re doing it wrong.”

    I’m glad you and many others are able to do this. The list of things you mentioned are not a part of my reality. In my case, I have to be very careful to see to it that the jobs get done and that all the ducks are in a row. There is no room for even one slip, especially on a holiday. I didn’t know all this going in, but fortunately learned it early enough on so that I could work through the different stages of acceptance and re-organize my life to adjust accordingly. I wish all of you the very best and I am very happy that others have a different reality. It is very nice to hear about.

  51. thedeti says:

    MitS:

    I am very sorry for the sentiments expressed in your last comment. This last comment of yours informs much of your writings and your general approach to the issues we write of here. I now understand where you’re coming from.

    My prayers for God’s blessings and that He might lighten your load and give you comfort.

  52. thedeti says:

    One last thing, MitS.

    You might find this hard to believe, but the vast majority of us men are not sex crazed tyrannical monsters. We simply want, or wanted, one woman to love and care about us, and for her to cleave to us so we could love and care for her. We’re here to find out how to get and keep that. Or, if we couldn’t or can’t get or keep that, we’re here to find out how to redirect our passions and efforts to other more fruitful pursuits.

    I hope you can understand that.

  53. I must hasten to mention that I have never, ever encountered the “sex-crazed tyrannical monster”, and I don’t believe he exists. He is a figment of the imagination of some nut case and they’re certainly plenty of those.

    I have encountered the religious tyrannical monster, which includes a lot of deprivation for months on end, sometimes up to a year. Some ladies married to such individuals may or may not have a lot of children; if they do have a lot of children, it’s because they are the poster girls for high fertility — only takes once at the right time, and more often than not it’s the right time.

    It’s all about learning. It’s all about growth and change and navigating the path to God. It’s all about Heaven. This life is just a pilgrimage.

    Thanks for the prayers, I can use every one.

  54. Elspeth says:

    @ MitS:

    I am praying for you as well. Your comments tugged at my heart. Even saddened me a bit. Stay encouraged, and seek to cultivate and embrace joy whenever and wherever you find it. It’s all around us when we are looking for it. Even in marriage.

  55. Thanks. Somehow just *saying* it was a relief. And Deti is right; I am serving no purpose by adding commentary; especially when I do have writing deadlines along with my regular home duties and homeschooling. I think I will stop here. Prayers to all.

  56. ChildofRa says:

    I have been in the friendzone, i don’t have any issues with it. Are girls normally friendzone by guys?

  57. @ ChildofRa

    Women get friend zoned by men if they:

    1. Aren’t attractive enough.
    2. Aren’t feminine enough (in personality).
    3. Both 1 and 2.

    Usually if you are attractive enough to get dates, but don’t get follow up dates it’s your personality.

    If you don’t get dates you’re probably not attractive enough or both.

  58. ChildofRa says:

    I’ve been told im attractive and i would make a good girlfriend/wife but the guys that tell me this are the ones who friendzone me

  59. @ Child

    I’ve been told im attractive and i would make a good girlfriend/wife but the guys that tell me this are the ones who friendzone me

    This is the equivalent of women saying:

    “You’re such a nice guy and any girl would be lucky to have you as a husband” — just not her.

    Usually when women say that to a man they’re not attractive to her. So it’s likely that the men who are saying you’re “attractive” think that your personality is attractive but don’t think you’re “sexually attractive.” Hence, they won’t ask you.

    My advice: Go to the gym + work on your appearance. Lose any weight if you have extra. Long hair, dresses, and other feminine appearance will help too.

  60. ChildofRa says:

    Interesting advice, the gym thing i can do but the long hair is a no. I no longer relax my hair,so my hair is short and curly. I wear dresses but not alot i mostly wear jeggings and feminine tees and blouses. I dont wear much makeup just mostly lipstick,eyeliner and bb cream.

  61. @ ChildofRa

    Whatever works for you.

    Personally, I have not and would not ask any woman out who does not have longer than shoulder length hair. I know a few men that have and do ask out women with short hair, but that’s not the usual.

  62. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ ChildofRa

    I’ve been told im attractive and i would make a good girlfriend/wife but the guys that tell me this are the ones who friendzone me

    For what it’s worth, there are others experiencing the same thing. It could be you, or it could be an unfortunate consequence of the current market (that many men around these parts refuse to acknowledge for some unknown reason), or a combination of both.

    Hang in there. Like DS said, do as much as possible to get and/or stay as physically attractive as you possibly can. And, (based on the comment you left at my blog today), actively work on not letting your nerves get the best of you when dealing with guys you like. That’s a big one because guys WILL mistake your nervousness/shyness for disinterest and will (usually) not bother trying, even if they like you too. This is something I’ve been trying to fix about myself ever since learning how my nervousness and shyness gets interpreted. Having a job that requires me to talk to strangers several times a day has helped, and talking to people online (including commenting on blogs like this) has helped even more. Practice talking to people you don’t know that well, and it will help you get better at not being so nervous over time with guys you like. And most importantly ~ pray. Pray for a miracle like your life depends on it. Because in this culture, we need all the help we can get to make things happen.

  63. As FBNF said you don’t have to necessarily become a social butterfly but you should be comfortable around people and be able to show it.

    Generally, men who want to marry are looking for a wife who is good with others and good with children. If your personality can’t easily shift gears to do that you should work on it.

    Being able to jump into conversation with anyone is a good trait to have and it can be developed. Charisma can be learned:

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/authenticity-and-charisma/

  64. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    @ DS

    Women get friend zoned by men if they:

    1. Aren’t attractive enough.
    2. Aren’t feminine enough (in personality).
    3. Both 1 and 2.

    Usually if you are attractive enough to get dates, but don’t get follow up dates it’s your personality.

    If you don’t get dates you’re probably not attractive enough or both.

    3. She’s not his type (subjective attraction isn’t there, despite whether she’s objectively attractive or not)

    4. There is little or no “bio-attraction”

    5. Their personalities just don’t “click” even if his is masculine and hers is feminine enough

    6. He’s gone MGTOW and wouldn’t bother asking out any woman no matter what she is like

    7. He doesn’t think she is interested in him and he doesn’t want to get nuked

    8. He has oneitis for another girl

    ….Or any number of reasons. It’s not *quite* as simple as you’ve made it out to be, though it’d be great if it was.

  65. Feminine But Not Feminist says:

    Oops, I should’ve started that with #4 instead of #3.

    Wasn’t trying to shift the blame from women to men; was just trying to say that there are lots of reasons why a man might decide to not pursue (or continue pursuing) a woman. It could be her fault, it could be his fault, or it could just be life circumstances that prevent it. So many things it could be.

  66. @ FBNF

    True. I’d say these are the main others:

    1. Subjective attraction + type go together. Part of this is personality and how it expressed.
    2. Bio-attraction is smell and other facets and that does matter.
    3. Oneitis for another girl.

    Most men aren’t MGTOW for the most part. The ones that are probably aren’t talking to girls in the first place so it’s unlikely that you meet one.

    Women are always free to ask a man about who they like. I ask men and women if they have any “romantic interests” as their friends if they’ve been single a while. Usually most people are pretty forthcoming if it’s a “no” or “maybe” or “something is starting to develop but in the early stages.”

    It can give you a handle on if someone else is on their radar so you don’t waste your time.

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