There has been some commentary on this post on Donal’s blog about the “friend zone” and if you can get in or out of it in different ways.
So I read this blog, Dalrock & Free Northerner, from FN I go to more reaction political blogs. One big beef I have with the manosphere tho is this vehement insistence not to be friends with a chick first, the dreaded LJBF. That hasn’t been my experience at all. Was friends with my HS GF for a year first, then was friends with my college GF for a year first. Looking back I only have fond memories & wish them the best, they were fairly happy & healthy relationships.
Donal follows up with this comment:
There is a lot of debate about that. Sometimes it doesn’t seem to be a problem, but for most men it does. Might depend on the man, might depend on the woman, might depend on the situation. Overall I’m inclined to argue against friendship first, at least if you have a romantic interest.
Scott puts in his take:
In my own history, I have only known this to work if the woman clearly wants it to be romantic all along. I have been on the receiving end of that where friendships developed into romantic relationships later. But never have I seen it work in the other direction. (Where the guy comes out of the friend file)
Then ‘Feminine but not Feminist’ also comments on something that I said a while ago providing an anecdote:
It’s mostly true that in order for a romantic relationship to develop that the woman must want one pretty much from the start, but there is one exception: when the man becomes more attractive in some major way(s) during the friendship, preferably when there’s a period of little to no visible contact (DS has talked about this before, and he’s right in that sense). For example, in the 6th grade I became very fast friends with a guy in my class. He was like a little brother to me, and I even felt protective of him in a sense, in the same way that a (loving) sister will want to look out for her little brother (for perspective, he was shorter than me and had a little boy “bowl” haircut). But over the summer between 9th and 10th grade, he changed. He shot up to about 4-ish inches taller than me (a lot for one summer!), cut his hair to about an inch long and spiked it with gel, started dressing more grown-up, and his voice got deeper. While I had talked to him on the phone some, I hadn’t seen him even once over the summer. So imagine my surprise when he walked into our first period class like this… I was like :-0 … His frame also changed: he had always been very confident and outgoing, but now he was taking a protective stance / was looking out for me, more so than I could do for him. I became very interested in being more than just friends at that point, and would’ve done so had he made a move to / had I known that he wanted the same.
Fortunately (or unfortunately…), I’ve had a wide variety of experiences on the receiving end of the friend zone, and I have talked with a lot of other men about the friend zone. So let me explain how it all works. There are FOUR different scenarios that occur.
First, the girl likes you all along: You’re already attractive enough for her, and she was waiting for you to pull the trigger. This jives with Scott’s experiences. Over the course of said relationship, the woman will often hint that you “finally asked her out” or “it was about time” or “I’m so happy that you eventually asked me out” which means that she was interested in you for a while before you asked her out. The keywords that show you that she was attracted prior are “finally” and “about time” and “eventually” signifying a period of time where she was attracted before you pulled the trigger.
The other way you can figure this by straight up asking her when she was first attracted to you. If she’s in a relationship with you sometimes she tells you straight up: “When I first laid eyes on you I liked you.” Well, for most men that doesn’t usually happen. The vast majority of women are not attracted at first sight as we know from the OKCupid studies women rate 80% of men as below average.
Second, you have to change significantly (e.g. raise your SMV/sexual attractiveness or become more masculine) in a time gap. This scenario manifests if you don’t see the woman for a while, and you make significant changes to your life such as the example that FBNF discusses. For example, if a woman is a female “6” and you’re a male “5”. However, you start lifting, get your stuff together, have a growth spurt, and whatnot and then you come back as a male “7” or “8” she’ll reevaluate you as a potential interest whereas before you were “just a friend.”
A real world example of this aside from FBNF’s example is that most of the men approaching 30 and into their mid 30s will see women who were formerly not interested in their 20s start to become more interested in them because they become more attractive. Part of this is their own declining attractiveness tied in with men’s increasing attractiveness into their 30s. The woman may have gone from a 7->6 whereas the man goes from a 6->8. Since the man is now a “8” and she is a “6” (or may perceive herself as still a “7”), she is then interested in him.
There are a couple of other scenarios which are much less common. I’ll describe them now.
Third, it is possible to where you’re with her the whole time and she gradually notices you. This is the same thing that happens to wives when a fat husband starts working out, getting his crap together, and whatnot. She sees him becoming more attractive — although she’ll only admit that it makes her “uncomfortable” or “unhappy” that you’re doing it — and makes her mind go at 100 miles per hour trying to figure it out. However, this discomfort makes the man more sexually attractive to her, so the bedroom antics will heat up. This is part of what is encompassed under “dread game” although I would disagree specifically of making it seem like you’re going to leave or cheat.
Alternatively, usually some random event in a woman’s life wakes her up to the fact that you ‘re now attractive. For example, a woman’s girlfriends could make a passing comment that “she’s single and how you’re looking like a good catch nowadays.” The woman would then laugh and dismiss what her friend says: “nah, he’s just a friend” or “haha, he’s not really my type.” But it will pique her curiosity, and when she reexamines you and you’re now more attractive than you were in the past. She then comes around and agree with her friend’s assessment that you’re now a catch.
Fourth, it is possible that a girl has put you in the “friend zone” or “undecided” where being undecided on you is not enough information for her to make a decision. Typically, this happens if you’re a strong silent type. Then a major incident wakes her up to the fact that you’re a man.
For example, usually some powerful act of bravery or leadership wakes her up. One such instance would be if someone starts choking and everyone is panicking. But you know what to do. You calmly run over to the situation, and do the heimlich maneuver and the person is fine. Then you take control of the situation and calm everyone down from panicking. You saved a life and exhibited leadership under pressure. A woman is now attracted to you.
Alternatively, a different such situation is a man displaying social dominance. If a girl is giving you crap or gossiping and then you tell her to stop. You two get in an “argument” and then you ream her out until she apologizes. This type of social dominance over other women (or potentially men as well) will make women take interest and be attracted to you. The power of your personality and your status rises to where she is attracted.
Another such example would be you’re in the same church. You’re mere acquaintances. However, a Bible study is being started up soon and you’re picked as a leader. You facilitate an awesome discussion while being charismatic and funny. She becomes interested in you after this. You were merely “meh” before, but you’ve displayed a significant aspect of social charisma that she didn’t know you had before.
Conclusions and escaping the friend zone
These are the four main scenarios that you will encounter with women who you may have been “friends” with before, but then then you were able to date/court them later.
- You were her friend, but she always liked you. She was waiting for you to ask her out.
- You were her friend, and you underwent some change to become a man while you didn’t see her for a while. When you meet her again you impress her.
- You were her friend, but you are developing into a man. Then one day her friend or some other random act of God makes her reconsider you and her eyes are proverbially opened.
- You were her friend, and she doesn’t know a certain side of you. An inadvertent crisis or significant display of social dominance or leadership shows her a side of you that she never saw before. She reconsiders you now as more attractive because of this masculine display.
These are the scenarios where men “escape” the friend zone. Aside from the one where she always liked you, they all have to do with YOU becoming more attractive by being a man or some other manly display involving confidence, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, or the like. Hence, if you want to escape the friend zone become more masculine. You know: Be attractive. Don’t be unattractive. Women are starving for masculinity in today’s culture.
It is important to understand that not every girl will “come around” even if you become more attractive. Sometimes you really aren’t “a woman’s type” or whatever reason. Maybe she won’t consider you because she doesn’t like men of a different race or ethnicity. Maybe she likes specific type of man such as a jock in her sport of choice and usually if she’s a athlete too; your guitar skills might not even phase her. Maybe you’re not educated enough, and she wants to go for a doctorate and is only interested in marrying another doctoral candidate. Whatever the case just like some women aren’t your type even if they are attractive so too a woman may decide that you’re “not her type” no matter how attractive you may become. If you become famous all bets are off though. Fame is a great equalizer regardless of “type” for women.
This is why I don’t recommend trying to escape the friend zone with women. Rather go meet more women who don’t have preconceived notions of who you are and are interested in you right off the bat. Thus, I side with the manosphere and Donal’s recommendation that you should not try to become a friend of a woman first before asking her out on a date or whatever you want to call that stuff nowadays.
If she gives you the “we should be friends before dating” she’s probably not attracted to you otherwise she would be giddy to go out on a date with you. The exception is if you can figure out that is a hard rule that she has with ALL men even ones she thinks are attractive, or if at a certain period in her life she has sworn off relationships (although this would make me suspicious in a yellow/red flag depending on the reason — especially if a man was the cause). However, that’s rarely the case from what I’ve seen.
I think I hit all of the scenarios, but if you can think of another that I missed post a comment.