Discussing sex and virginity with a potential spouse is important

On attitudes

One of Dalrock’s recent posts on the problem isn’t knowledge but attitude highlights a fairly important issue.

The first part of the post is about how attitude is the root of actions. This is true. I explored this in my post on Your attitude tells me everything I need to know.

  • Heart -> attitude -> actions

Essentially, a person’s attitude basically doubles as how their heart thinks about a particular issue or person. It is the closest thing to a person’s heart that we can see. Hence, why examining someone’s intentions, even if it didn’t turn out the way they want or turned out for the worse, is extremely important. If their heart is in the right place and they are willing to walk in humility and be corrected then you can change what they do to be more effective.

This is the same thing that God does with our hearts as we read the Bible or are mentored or discipleship. We accept God’s gift and repent of our sins, and we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Then our heart is in the right place with the attitude and help of the Holy Spirit to do good, we can then walk in good. It might not come out as good at first, and that’s what Biblical correction, fellowship, and mentoring/discipleship is for to help us on the right path.

Discussing sex and virginity

The real question that has been raging in the comments is:

Should a young woman broadcast her virginity?

Yes and no. Let me discuss how I approach this topic first.

In general, as man who is going to be leading the relationship and how it progresses I typically do not go straight for the heart of the issue. When discussing matters about sex I usually start with what Scripture says about sex and have the discussion there. My usual “go to” question to start bringing it up is if she has a high or low libido then turn it specifically to 1 Corinthians 7 where it talks about the ONLY reason that Christians should marry in the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

1 Corinthians 7 is probably the easiest passage to discuss because it has a lot on not just sex but reasons why and why not Christians should get married. Obviously, some of the others you can talk about are Genesis 1-3 and Song of Songs.

Timeline: The general timeline for when I start bringing up matters of what a Biblical marriage and sex looks like is 2-3 weeks.

1. The first few weeks are feeling each other out typically by electronic communication of some sort and a few dates. In those first few weeks I lead a discussion on Scripture and theology, the sociological interaction of the Church and culture, and the Church and feminism.

2. After I reach the 2-3 week mark then I start introducing the topic of sex leading into it from the example above. Since we are now comfortable discussing issues that relatively no man has talked with her before, there is a decent level of intimacy and trust. This is the importance of leading these discussions because very few if any men actually do this. You will stand out as someone exceptional.

3. From there although it may seem uncomfortable I start bringing up the issue of libido compatibility. For the numerous women I’ve talked with about this I don’t think I’ve had one bad encounter as long as I assert the importance of discussing these topics.

Reasoning: Generally speaking, even talking about “sex” is taboo in our culture. This should not be. The most common examples I give to women who I went out on dates with is the main reason of the importance of the discussion:

  • Our culture AND the Church thinks discussing marriage and sex is taboo and uncomfortable
  • God created sex to be good within marriage, and talking about something about which God created to be good is not evil.
  • The early importance of discussing sex is clear: if we get a few months into a  relationship and I find that my potential wife only wants sex once a week and I want it multiple times a day then this is a bad match up of libidos which will cause significant friction within the marriage.
  • Likewise, if I find that my potential wife has particular issues about sex that she is bringing into the relationship that may hinder intimacy. This includes not just her past but also my past history as well. If there’s something you can’t get over in the other person’s history it’s better to know earlier so you two can know that this relationship is not for you and start your search anew.
  • It is one of the only exclusive things in marriage that the two of you do that you wouldn’t do with other Christians.

Now, such things always gradually lead into a conversation about the importance of virginity and ultimately a disclosure of if the woman is a virgin or not. I find that this is a naturally transition, and it isn’t that uncomfortable although the initial discussions may be. I’ve personally *never* had a girl that I was talking to react negatively to a discussion on virginity after highlighting sex and marriage in these terms.

Should a woman bring it up first?

In general, I don’t think a woman should be proactive about announcing it as that typically comes off as crass, but it should be a topic of discussion when discussing intimacy and marriage because virginity is touted as important in the Scriptures for good reason.

From what I have seen from not just my own case but many others I think if a woman brings it up it should be related to the topic of hand. Otherwise, if she just blurts out that she is a virgin it comes off very poorly like she has some underlying motive.

However, if a woman does announce it then you have to look at her attitude when she speaks about it. If she speaks about it firmly like she has made the decision to wait to have sex ’til marriage that is good. However, if she speaks of it as a warning to her boyfriend or in a negative tone of voice then that’s a bad indicator that she may have some sort of sexual hangup potentially involving her virginity. Like we discussed in the beginning it is her attitude toward virginity and sex that matters in deciphering how she actually feels about it rather than what she is saying.

Lest we forget Samantha Pugsley’s example of how her virginity became an idol to her:

I lost my virginity on my wedding night, with my husband, just as I had promised that day when I was 10 years old. I stood in the hotel bathroom beforehand, wearing my white lingerie, thinking, “I made it. I’m a good Christian.” There was no chorus of angels, no shining light from Heaven. It was just me and my husband in a dark room, fumbling with a condom and a bottle of lube for the first time.

Sex hurt. I knew it would. Everyone told me it would be uncomfortable the first time. What they didn’t tell me is that I would be back in the bathroom afterward, crying quietly for reasons I didn’t yet comprehend. They didn’t tell me that I’d be on my honeymoon, crying again, because sex felt dirty and wrong and sinful even though I was married and it was supposed to be okay now.

When we got home, I couldn’t look anyone in the eye. Everyone knew my virginity was gone. My parents, my church, my friends, my co-workers. They all knew I was soiled and tarnished. I wasn’t special anymore. My virginity had become such an essential part of my personality that I didn’t know who I was without it.

It didn’t get better. I avoided undressing in front of my husband. I tried not to kiss him too often or too amorously so I wouldn’t lead him on. I dreaded bedtime. Maybe he’d want to have sex.

When he did, I obliged. I wanted nothing more than to make him happy because I loved him so much and because I’d been taught it was my duty to fulfill his needs. But I hated sex. Sometimes I cried myself to sleep because I wanted to like it, because it wasn’t fair. I had done everything right. I took the pledge and stayed true to it. Where was the blessed marriage I was promised?

No Christian husband wants to be a marriage like this. The woman above eventually walked away from Christianity too. Now, this is not the case with every woman but this allows us to see what we are looking for in particular.

Should a woman not discuss it at all?

Another thing addressed is the discussion of it where the woman doesn’t want to talk about it at all. Dalrock quoted Spacetraveller’s experience as well:

I don’t advocate that women disclose their ‘status’ to a prospective husband ESPECIALLY if she IS a virgin. I didn’t understand this at the time I was dating, but I think I understand things better now. It seems a bit ‘try hard’ if you are trying to convince someone you are a virgin. They will naturally, get suspicious about you.

I never disclosed. When my husband (then boyfriend) directly asked (because of ‘no action’ 3 months or so into our relationship), I actually didn’t answer. He says I blushed and looked away, which is probably true, because I am sensitive about this subject.

I never discussed virginity with anyone who I was interested in or who was interested in me because I thought it was too much of an intimate discussion to have with someone who is not yet ‘established’ as a husband-potential. Even having this discussion with a man was, in itself ‘slutty’, in my view.

In my view, the only reason why she viewed it as “slutty” is because sex and it’s associated topics are seen as taboo. These are notions that SHOULD be disabused by Christians.

Christians, just as much as non-Christians, like hiding uncomfortable and difficult topics. Parents often communicate the “birds and the bees” discussion as something that is shameful and shouldn’t be talked about. However, there is no reason why discussing something that God created to be good as something touted as shameful. This is Christians feeling shame or embarrassment for things they should not. Just as we are not to be ashamed of Jesus Christ or the gospel we should not be ashamed of things that God created to be good in marriage.

Because I am rooted in the truth and explain these things well to those I go on dates with it’s not a problem discussing sex, virginity, or other topics. These women do feel uncomfortable when starting to discuss these topics at first. They specifically tell me about it. However, as long as you don’t treat it as a big deal and discuss it seriously on how it applies to marriage, their impact of marriage, and how they can help the husband and wife to grow in intimacy it’s God honoring and important to building trust.

Personally, I would NEVER marry a woman who hasn’t disclosed her past sexual history to me.

If she had a promiscuous past and if she is ashamed about it then I would question her repentance solely because Jesus takes away our sins. I’m not afraid of admitting my past sin  because that’s not who I am anymore. Christ changed me, and He should have changed her. Paul was not afraid of talking about what he did prior to Christ with humility: he actively helped murder the early Church. This is the power of fully received forgiveness. We should have no trouble talking about our past mistakes in light of His all consuming Grace and Mercy because if we have repented we know that is not who we are.

Of course, her past may lead me to not decide to pursue a relationship just like she may not decide to pursue a relationship when she hears of my past. This is fine. We can and should count the cost of being with someone based on their past as it does come up.

Conclusions

  • I think that every Christian who wants to get married should be open to discussing marriage, sex, virginity, and other sexual topics prior to marriage. The earlier the better.
  • The main reasons why people object to talking about sex and virginity is it’s uncomfortable or it’s shameful. However, in light of God’s creation and our salvation it should not be shameful or uncomfortable to talk about these things. In fact, it is extremely important to talk about things that are one of the lynchpins of the marriage relationship.
  • Examine a potential spouses attitude about virginity, sexual behavior, and their past as this shows you their heart about sex. Obviously, they can improve in this area, but it should be a yellow flag if they have negative thoughts or attitudes toward sex in marriage.
  • Personally, I would never a marry a woman who did not disclose her sexual past to me.
  • Not talking about marriage, sex, virginity, and other intimate discussions is like playing with fire if you are intending to get married. You’re hoping a bomb is not buried in the heart of your spouse that is going to be opened up on wedding night.

I remember discussing how to vet potential women with discussions about sex before on this blog; however, I don’t remember the exact post. In general, I think most of the commenters were against it especially the [married] women. I dissented before and brought up some examples. This is my full opinion on this particular topic with my personal experience. I know it can go well, and it always has. As long as you present it correctly to Christian women in the light of Scripture and how God views marriage and sex.

Those who have hangups about discussing it after you discuss it in light of God’s truth I would say is a yellow flag. There’s something deeper that is impeding her from having a good attitude and heart towards sex in marriage and the importance of discussing it to look for compatibility. Essentially, the process of discussing sex in marriage, beyond a woman’s actual virginity or not, is a vetting tool that is a predictor of how it will be in marriage.

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21 Responses to Discussing sex and virginity with a potential spouse is important

  1. Wizard Prang says:

    Good post. This is *major*. A few observations:

    Women Lie – particularly about sex. To themselves. To others. To get what they want. And the Hen-house will back them to the hilt. This is the single biggest problem in this area that men face today – how to determine if she is being truthful. Pardon the plug, but here is a classic example of such dishonesty and the consequences that follow: https://wizardprang.wordpress.com/2015/07/13/oh-rick/

    It is OK for a woman to say “My husband will be my first”. I say that as a man who married such a woman. We are currently at 28 years and counting.

    Of course, if she is truly a virgin *she* may have not know whether she has high libido or low. Another crap-shoot.

    I’ve known of women who stopped having sex with their boyfriends to get them to “hurry up and commit”… and then got took it as a betrayal when their ultimatum was met with a flat refusal and exit-stage-right.

    The problem here is that all of the cultural and social norms that have been in place for centuries have been dismantled, and all that is left is uncertainty and doubt.

    Sheesh… after reading and digesting this article I begin to understand why so many men are MGTOW/herbivore.

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  3. @ Wizard Prang

    Yep, that’s the importance of getting direct answers rather than assuming that someone saying that “no sex before marriage” means she is a virgins.

    Also, it bears out that it’s important to vet out the difference between a “technical virgin” and “chaste.”

    From what I’ve seen generally speaking if a woman lies it will start to unravel on her once you know long enough. She’ll slip up making some comment about previous sexual experience or she’ll drop her guard on telling you more about her if she trusts you.

    This is why it’s important communicate clearly up front so there is no question what you’re looking for. This allows you to look for signs of duplicity if any a couple weeks or months down the line if the relationship progresses.

    It might not even be a bad idea for you to mention a “lie detector test” prior to marriage as there are reconstructive hymen surgeries now. That tends to bring out the truth right there along with much moaning and complaining.

  4. ChildofRa says:

    If you are a virgin, how are you supposed to know your libdo? I don’t understand, like how is one suppose to know how many sex they will or would be willing to do if they never had sex before?

  5. @ ChildofRa

    You should have a general idea due to:

    1. the frequency of how turned on you get naturally
    2. an inclination of how much you would want to have sex if you married the man of your dreams
    3. if you feel uncomfortable or repulsed if a man says he wants sex most days a week or everyday (then you generally have a lower drive).
    4. past relationships if they involved an infatuation phase how much you desired to be together

  6. ChildofRa says:

    Okay, thanks

  7. donalgraeme says:

    I have to say DS, I really like this post. Not that I don’t like most of them, but this is rock solid. Of course, it looks like we are pretty much in full agreement on this, so that might be it.

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  10. Heather G says:

    I’m kinda amazed at the things you’ve thought up here – some of which seem really harsh. For instance, a woman “broadcasting” that she’s a virgin in a warning sort of way – women are constantly under huge amounts of pressure to have sex with even Christian guys. You show a HUGE value or not on whether or not a woman is a virgin, yet really judge her harshly if she is protective enough of her virginity to make it clear to a man up front that she is a virgin and plans to continue to be one in a warning sort of way. This may in most cases just be a woman’s reaction to wanting to be the virgin you are saying you want a woman to be on your marriage night.

    And, if a woman has come to over-value her virginity, as you said, “made an idol out of it” I don’t think anyone should rule her out for marriage just because she’s gotten carried away with KEEPING herself for marriage. That can easily be gotten over – even if it’s the situation at first, it’s something she can grow through. Show some patience – just as Christ layed his life down for His bride, and is patient with her as she grows, can’t you be patient with a woman as she works through any sort of sexual issues? (I guess when things are this stringent I think you might be getting a little carried away with knowing there are 3 girls for every 1 guy in the church, and being a bit too unkind and entitled that you have almost unlimited opportunity to “shop” compared to women.)

    As far as her libido, I very much agree with the commentator who said that it’s a crap shoot because how would a virgin know whether she wants sex once a week or once a night? All she has is her imagination to go on, which might be very different than what sex is like as a reality. And for that matter, if you (the man) are a virgin, you may also over-estimate or under-estimate your own libido. I have many, many married friends who have told me that they or their spouse started out with one type of libido and ended up with another.

    I think the more important sexual conversations to have will be things like what sex means to you both, and how patient you plan to be with each other’s needs, and how much you are willing to serve the other person’s needs for both physical affection and the actual sex act and other sexual activities, etc.

    Finally, the commentator who said something about hymen reconstruction surgery – no doubt if he said all women lie then nothing I said will be taken seriously here on that, but the reality is that once a woman is in her upper 20s to 30s her hymen is usually gone anyway, even if she is a virgin. The pain women usually experience with first time sex is not due to their hymen breaking, but it is due mostly to the myth that sex has to hurt because they are told they have a hymen that will break, and due to the man not learning enough beforehand on how to properly use foreplay and arousal to make sure the woman is ready for sex – and the women unconsciously (it is out of her conscious control entirely) bracing herself for pain by clenching the vaginal muscles and making it almost impossible for him to enter her, resulting in a difficult experience for both bride and groom. But don’t take my word for it:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201103/the-hymen-membrane-widely-misunderstood
    http://www.bustle.com/articles/64465-7-myths-about-hymens-that-prove-the-way-we-talk-about-losing-our-virginity-is-all
    http://fustany.com/en/beauty/health–fitness/all-you-need-to-know-about-hymens

    and many, many more links.

  11. @ Heather G

    I’m kinda amazed at the things you’ve thought up here – some of which seem really harsh

    It’s not harsh. It’s simply blunt.

    Christians have an aversion to hearing the truth about things straight up. Maybe they want to be comfortable, maybe they don’t like tackling hard issues, and maybe something else.

    Women — Christian or not — tend to take blunt as harsh.

    For instance, a woman “broadcasting” that she’s a virgin in a warning sort of way – women are constantly under huge amounts of pressure to have sex with even Christian guys. You show a HUGE value or not on whether or not a woman is a virgin, yet really judge her harshly if she is protective enough of her virginity to make it clear to a man up front that she is a virgin and plans to continue to be one in a warning sort of way. This may in most cases just be a woman’s reaction to wanting to be the virgin you are saying you want a woman to be on your marriage night.

    1. If a woman is being pressured by sex from so-called Christian guys then those “Christian guys” need to be rebuked.

    2. If you read what I wrote closely it’s a woman’s attitude and how she says it that matters more than what she actually says. You can tell if a woman is being confrontational with her virginity or if she states it as a matter of fact.

    A woman that is confrontational with her virginity more than likely has sexual hangups for whatever reason. I speak this from experience.

    And, if a woman has come to over-value her virginity, as you said, “made an idol out of it” I don’t think anyone should rule her out for marriage just because she’s gotten carried away with KEEPING herself for marriage. That can easily be gotten over – even if it’s the situation at first, it’s something she can grow through. Show some patience – just as Christ layed his life down for His bride, and is patient with her as she grows, can’t you be patient with a woman as she works through any sort of sexual issues? (I guess when things are this stringent I think you might be getting a little carried away with knowing there are 3 girls for every 1 guy in the church, and being a bit too unkind and entitled that you have almost unlimited opportunity to “shop” compared to women.)

    I disagree.

    If you read the example I posted about Samantha Pugsley which I posted you can end up being married to a woman who walks away from the faith because of her sexual hangups:

    http://thoughtcatalog.com/samantha-pugsley/2014/08/i-waited-until-my-wedding-night-to-lose-my-virginity-and-i-wish-i-hadnt/

    While this is a rather extreme example, it is important to come to an understanding of the nature of sexual desire, virginity, and why these things are not sinful prior to marriage but should not be idolized.

    The dating and engagement period is the time for sorting out these issues. I am, as well as other Christian men, are willing to offer some benefit of the doubt and patience (if she doesn’t have extremely crazy views that I am not willing to engage). However, there needs to be improvement if not vast improvement otherwise I wouldn’t move the relationship forward.

    Hangups about sex are too important since sex is one of the major defining characteristics of marriage.

    As far as her libido, I very much agree with the commentator who said that it’s a crap shoot because how would a virgin know whether she wants sex once a week or once a night? All she has is her imagination to go on, which might be very different than what sex is like as a reality. And for that matter, if you (the man) are a virgin, you may also over-estimate or under-estimate your own libido. I have many, many married friends who have told me that they or their spouse started out with one type of libido and ended up with another.

    Men’s libido is different from women’s libido. Men’s sexual desire is assertive whereas women’s is more reactive in nature.

    This makes it so that men generally know how strong their libido is while being a virgin. I know mine is strong enough that I would want sex once a day at minimum and preferably multiple times a day. Women’s generally needs to be put under a closer microscope like I posted in the link here:

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/discussing-sex-and-virginity-with-a-potential-spouse-is-important/#comment-4095

    I think the more important sexual conversations to have will be things like what sex means to you both, and how patient you plan to be with each other’s needs, and how much you are willing to serve the other person’s needs for both physical affection and the actual sex act and other sexual activities, etc.

    Agreed, but libido also needs to be discussed proactively.

    Discounting libido is playing with fire given that the only reason Paul suggests marrying in the New Testament is in 1 Corinthians 7: ‘it is better to marry than to burn.’ It’s pretty easy to guess he was talking about sexual desire and libido.

    If you only wanted sex a couple times a week and the man wanted it multiple times day that would be frustrating for the both of you. Likewise, there are a small number of relationships where the wife has the higher sex drive. The wife is almost always frustrated that her husband doesn’t want sex more.

    This has the potential to blow up into epic proportions just like differences in opinions of finances, theological positions, political leanings, and other factors involved.

    Finally, the commentator who said something about hymen reconstruction surgery – no doubt if he said all women lie then nothing I said will be taken seriously here on that, but the reality is that once a woman is in her upper 20s to 30s her hymen is usually gone anyway, even if she is a virgin. The pain women usually experience with first time sex is not due to their hymen breaking, but it is due mostly to the myth that sex has to hurt because they are told they have a hymen that will break, and due to the man not learning enough beforehand on how to properly use foreplay and arousal to make sure the woman is ready for sex – and the women unconsciously (it is out of her conscious control entirely) bracing herself for pain by clenching the vaginal muscles and making it almost impossible for him to enter her, resulting in a difficult experience for both bride and groom.

    However, the point about hymen constructive surgery stands. Women are willing to lie about that. Now, the point isn’t really about hymen reconstructive surgery but about knowing that it is possible for that type of thing to be the case. Lies can be filtered out with other mechanisms.

    I personally have zero tolerance lying policy in my relationship that I told her in the first week that we started dating. If I find out that my girlfriend lies then we are done no matter if I have known her for 6 months now or if we are engaged. Even if it’s for something supposedly “small.” If she lies once I don’t know how many other things she has told me are lies and that undermines trust.

    Agreed that there are many myths around sex and it hurting during the first time.

    ——————–

    Thanks for commenting. You bring up some valid points that I agree with, but some didn’t pass the sniff test for men. Feel free to stick around and comment. Most topics will be explored bluntly as this blog is written for men, so if you can’t get past that then it’s cool.

    Though I will say this: If Christian women want their men to be bold, assertive, and confident leaders then they need to be able to bring up the uncomfortable topics and address them readily. Leadership is not shown when things are going well; rather, strong leadership is about managing conflict well.

    I encourage you to think about that before calling discussions like this harsh. Masculine men are built through experiencing difficulty and hardship and overcoming it.

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  13. Heather G says:

    Hi, thanks for your reply. I don’t think the discussion is harsh – in fact, I do want to honor you for having forthright conversation. But I do think your judgment is harsh about some things. What actually concerns me the most is the idea that you think – erroneously, I believe – that having conversations about these things during engagement is going to reflect what your marriage reality will be like. No matter how carefully you quiz a girl, you are going to end up having two different libidos at least some month of your marriage LOL. You will surprise yourself by being tired and not wanting sex as often as you thought you would, at some stage in your life (and I don’t mean just when you get old.) She might start out hating sex and end up loving it later, or she might start out wearing you out and then have a whole year where she barely wants sex and is doing it just to keep you happy. It’s life – there is no way you can control ahead of time whether two people are always going to want to have sex when the other one wants it. The best you can come up with is some agreements about how you will work through it when one person wants it and the other one doesn’t. I’m not married, but I think if you ask 20 guys in your church who have been married for at least 3 years what the reality was of what they wanted when they first got married, and how their libidos worked out 3 or 5 or 10 years later, they’ll tell you – it’s about love, and self-sacrifice, on both peoples’ parts – because there’s no such thing as making sure your sex drives will match perfectly. And I hope you can love her anyway, even if she fails to live up to your expectations for sex drive – because it will happen. And you will disappoint her at times too.

    Here’s the thing: yeah, all this wisdom you are giving out about finding the perfect woman that is exactly the specifications you want and need, is ok to some point, but once you are married, what happens when you discover that it’s not as perfect as you planned it? I hope your blog at that point turns into a bigger discussion about the gospel in marriage, about grace in marriage, and about a man who loves his wife so much that he lays his life down for her even more than He expects her to be his obedient wife. I’m not knocking being an obedient wife – but I really hope when you get into a marriage it becomes much more about you being the man you are called to be, than constantly worrying about whether or not she turns out to be the perfect woman who not only keeps all the Biblical commands towards women perfectly, but also keeps your expectations of her weight, fitness, attitude, etc – perfectly. Sooner or later she’s gonna fail you, and fail you in a big way. And when she does, be Christ to her – not the guy who wonders why all his plans didn’t work out right nor the guy who is just bummed that she didn’t turn out perfect after all.

  14. Heather G says:

    You wrote on the link you shared in your comment:
    “if you feel uncomfortable or repulsed if a man says he wants sex most days a week or everyday (then you generally have a lower drive)”

    There are different attitudes that could come across if a guy said this to me. In general, women are more apt to be turned on by a guy who seems genuinely interested in having sex WITH HER, versus a guy who says such a thing in a way that lets her know it has nothing to do with her at all, it’s just all about him getting off. If you want your woman to give you sex out of duty and don’t care if she really is enjoying it, then don’t worry about it. But if you want her genuinely aroused and enjoying it, then there is a way to say it that will drive most women crazy with arousal and interest, and awaken their libido.

    That’s just the thing – a lot of men don’t put the time or effort into learning how to be great lovers who win their woman’s heart and approach her sexually through her heart. You can cultivate a relationship with your wife that grows her libido in ways she might never have imagined, or you can cultivate a relationship with your wife that kills any latent libido she already has. It’s not as much of a “she already comes to me with a certain libido and that’s just the way she is” that you might think it to be. Find some women in your church that can admit to having a great sex life, and then ask their husbands how they’ve been great lovers to their wives.

    By the way, I’m Jewish. (A Jewish believer in the Messiah.) In my culture, it’s totally normal to have really up front conversations about sex so if you’re wondering why I talk so candidly, it’s because sex in Judaism is considered to be an important part of studying the Torah and learning about life. Plus, I’m old enough to have had a LOT of friends be married for a really long time and hear what they’ve gone through – both men and women. Talk to married couples in your church – seriously.

  15. @ Heather G

    I don’t think the discussion is harsh – in fact, I do want to honor you for having forthright conversation. But I do think your judgment is harsh about some things. What actually concerns me the most is the idea that you think – erroneously, I believe – that having conversations about these things during engagement is going to reflect what your marriage reality will be like. No matter how carefully you quiz a girl, you are going to end up having two different libidos at least some month of your marriage LOL. You will surprise yourself by being tired and not wanting sex as often as you thought you would, at some stage in your life (and I don’t mean just when you get old.) She might start out hating sex and end up loving it later, or she might start out wearing you out and then have a whole year where she barely wants sex and is doing it just to keep you happy. It’s life – there is no way you can control ahead of time whether two people are always going to want to have sex when the other one wants it. The best you can come up with is some agreements about how you will work through it when one person wants it and the other one doesn’t. I’m not married, but I think if you ask 20 guys in your church who have been married for at least 3 years what the reality was of what they wanted when they first got married, and how their libidos worked out 3 or 5 or 10 years later, they’ll tell you – it’s about love, and self-sacrifice, on both peoples’ parts – because there’s no such thing as making sure your sex drives will match perfectly. And I hope you can love her anyway, even if she fails to live up to your expectations for sex drive – because it will happen. And you will disappoint her at times too.

    1. Conversations are mainly about vetting and learning people’s attitudes. They’re not about what acutally will happen. So many women and men say they will never get divorced yet it happens.

    Attitudes are one of the closest thing to reveal the state of the heart. If she is repulsed by divorce it’s more likely that she actually believes that divorce is no option as opposed to those give it lip service. This is where body language and all of those things come into play.

    2. Obviously, there are life situations that may affect sex live among other things. Again, discussing these things like discussing parenting, homeschooling or public school, are to find out attitudes. I can deal with a wife who wants to have sex but might not have it because she is sick for a wife. I don’t want to deal with a wife who just doesn’t want to have sex.

    Here’s the thing: yeah, all this wisdom you are giving out about finding the perfect woman that is exactly the specifications you want and need, is ok to some point, but once you are married, what happens when you discover that it’s not as perfect as you planned it? […] Sooner or later she’s gonna fail you, and fail you in a big way. And when she does, be Christ to her – not the guy who wonders why all his plans didn’t work out right nor the guy who is just bummed that she didn’t turn out perfect after all.

    Well, you haven’t been here long enough so you haven’t read some of the posts like these which show how I actually interact with my girlfriend:

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/communication-in-relationships-part-1/

    I mostly discuss masculinity and vetting in a very straight forward manner. However, this doesn’t also mean I don’t discuss ways in which to be patient, kind, understanding, and the like.

    I think you would agree with me that most men aren’t manly enough nowadays. Kindness, patience, and understanding can be taught easily with submission to the Spirit, but strong, confident, bold masculinity is a much more difficult and nebulous concept to teach.

    […]

    That’s just the thing – a lot of men don’t put the time or effort into learning how to be great lovers who win their woman’s heart and approach her sexually through her heart. You can cultivate a relationship with your wife that grows her libido in ways she might never have imagined, or you can cultivate a relationship with your wife that kills any latent libido she already has. It’s not as much of a “she already comes to me with a certain libido and that’s just the way she is” that you might think it to be. Find some women in your church that can admit to having a great sex life, and then ask their husbands how they’ve been great lovers to their wives.

    As I said before, it’s a specific thing. Generally, if a man is with a woman he is going to discuss it more personally than me just throwing out scenarios. I know for me and my girl I talk in terms of it being me and her… not her and any other man.

    Also, awesome to see more Messianic Jews. I have read up on sex and Jewish culture so I am familiar with what you are talking about.

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