Women teaching women in Church

Been busy so haven’t been posting much. I figured I’d comment on this.

There’s been some interesting discussion on the last few posts on Dalrock’s blog on women potentially teaching other women in Church. This is just the last one but check out the few prior to that if you want the whole picture.

Generally speaking, some commenters point to Titus 2 to where older women should be teaching younger women.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may [b]encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

On the other hand, the verses that seem to refute this are the passages from 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2:

1 Corinthians 14:34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is [n]improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 [o]Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

1 Timothy 2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, [g]modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first [h]created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, [i]fell into transgression. 15 But women will be [j]preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with [k]self-restraint.

Dalrock rightly points out that exegesis of the preaching and of the Scripture is delegated to husbands in the 1 Corinthians 14 passage. When you combine this with the wording of the passage in Titus 2, it’s obvious that older women are to encourage wifely submission to their husbands. Therefore, it is the case that older women should not be “teaching” what the Scriptures mean to wives but rather encouraging wives to ask their husbands about how they would interpret it.

This is important because although there is Church authority over the members of the Church, the Scripture does not contradict itself and rightly upholds marriage which is the first created authority structure (See: Genesis 1-3).

Proper Scriptural authority

All of this stems from as couple of things. Generally, In the Scriptures “teaching” and “preaching” are validated by “authority.” Authority is given in the Scriptures to specific roles such as husbands, pastors and elders, governments, and the like in order to love, shepherd, or maintain order and law.

Order is maintained from a top-down perspective. Those with qualifications may be selected by those in authority to be in certain positions. For example, in 1 Timothy 3 Paul discusses the qualifications of bishops and deacons. The government is given authority by God to act. In this sense, we understand that democracy is somewhat backwards in that it is a bottom-top power structure, and that is why we see the dysfunction increasing exponentially over time.

When the apostles were forbidden to preach the gospel by the Sanhedrin Council in Acts 5, they responded that they should obey God — who had told them to preach the gospel specifically to all nations! — rather than men. This is a proper understanding of authority.

This is the also reason why the Scriptures tell wives to ask their husbands if they don’t understand something. A wife is subject to her husband as her authority.

In the Church, the Ekklesia — specifically a Gathering of Believers — no women will ever have authority in such a situation. Daughters are subject to their fathers whether they are young or old. In marriage, the authority of a father over his daughter is passed from the father to the husband. The single exception may be widows, and Paul describes how widows are supposed to act in 1 Timothy 5. And Nuns… but Nuns have forsaken their all for God, so that’s not an issue.

Thus, in no situation is a woman “free unto herself” and thus given a voice within the Church in a position of authority whether over men or over other women. Daughters and wives are under their fathers or husbands authority. Likewise, older women are encouraged to teach younger women to obey the authority they are under and act in a godly manner.

Women teaching other women

As of now it should be quite clear that [older] women do not have the authority to teach or preach the meaning(s) of Scriptures to [younger] women because it is under the jurisdiction of their fathers or husbands. The Bible does not contradict itself on this front.

In particular, one of my general pet peeves of the blogosphere in general is that it’s often the case where many women’s blogs discuss the application of Scriptures toward their own marriage and it becomes explicit or implicit that it should be that way in other marriages. This is false. In reality, it should be like this:

  1. This is how this Scripture works in my marriage with my husband under his guidance.
  2. You should ask your husband how he wants things done.
  3. It may be different on how he interprets and handles things. That’s fine and good!

For example, look at the passage again:

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may [b]encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

All of it is to encourage being subject to their own husbands in a godly manner. Not to teach them how their specific relationship should look like. Their husband determines how it should look like.

Pastors cutting off husbands at the knees from the pulpit the same analog as this.

A pastor has “his” specific interpretation of how Scripture is supposed to be carried out and berates men from the pulpit because they are not doing it his particular way. Hence, many wives of the husband that this pastor berates will now berate their husbands to be more like how the pastor preaches. This is simply not godly nor Scriptural.

Likewise, if you’ve been around long enough “blogs” are a source of much discontent among single and married women simply because they see something that looks or appears good on the outside and want it for their marriage. Then they become angry, dissatisfied, and discontent when they bring it up to their husbands and their husbands shoot it down. It should not be this way. Christian women bloggers should be encouraging other women to submit to how their husbands do things. If they want to suggest or bring up something respectfully that may be helpful then by all means do so. However, it should not be assumed that supposedly something “better” in someone else’s relationship is the “RIGHT” thing for your relationship.

It certainly is ungodly if women and wives are becoming discontent through comparisons of their marriage to other marriages. Comparisons sow discontent. Comparisons are bad kids. M’kay?

This is one area that many women struggle with a lot, especially with FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM, BLOGS and CHRISTIAN LITERATURE.

Can you say comparison city? Discontentment? Dissatisfaction?

Women teaching women beyond godliness and subjection to their husbands is going to be bad news bears. Tell them to ask their fathers or husbands if they have questions or comments about particular topics or want to understand a particular passage of Scripture. The end.

P.S. The Catholic and Orthodox Church do not have as big of a problem with this because of the adherence to structured authority. Protestant failure.

—————————————–

Addendum: Apparently, there is some confusion with this post which BGR has commented on. What the Scripture teaches is that:

  1. Women who teach other women a la Titus 2 should do so under the interpretations of the Church and her husband.

For example, per Titus 2 [older] women should be teaching [younger] women to be submissive to their husbands.

What is submission to their husband? It’s not what other people think is submissive to her husband. It’s what the husband thinks is submissive. Hence, why it’s a good idea for older women to encourage younger women to ask their husbands what submission means to them and how they can best go about it in their relationship.

Hence, what it looks like is an older woman saying:

1. Here’s how I’m submissive to my husband.
2. You should go ask your husband how you can be submissive to him because how I am submissive is not necessarily how your husband wants you to be submissive.

In regard to “pure” the word for that is hagnos which is also translated as chaste or modest.

Hence, older women should tell wives that they should be pure/chaste/modest. What does that mean? The husband decides what is pure/chaste/modest in his own home.

Women are teaching women to do **these things** because they are good. What these things **mean** is up to the husband to decide, with input from the wife.

The problem is with women interpreting Scripture on their own. She can share the meaning of Scripture under the authority of the husband and/or the Church.

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34 Responses to Women teaching women in Church

  1. Pingback: Women teaching women in Church – Manosphere.com

  2. Don Quixote says:

    DS said:

    In particular, one of my general pet peeves of the blogosphere in general is that it’s often the case where many women’s blogs discuss the application of Scriptures toward their own marriage and it becomes explicit or implicit that it should be that way in other marriages. This is false. In reality, it should be like this:

    This is an excellent point, it’s worth repeating. Protestant churches fail this again and again. Instead of teaching wives to learn what their husbands want, they present various models of how it should be and then expect all marriages to work along the same lines. And if the husband tries to follow the model presented by his wife both will be unhappy with the arrangement, and if the husbands grows some balls and insists on his way, the wife will be unhappy [read no sex], and on it goes until the marriage ends in divorce, or until the wife learns to submit and obey.

  3. SnapperTrx says:

    I get what your saying here, but there is no way in all seven levels of hell you could get any Western church to agree with you. If all of the ladies groups broke up the week would be completely empty except for Wednesday night service and maybe a Men’s Group. And what about women teaching children? The church I used to attend is so paranoid of men that they won’t even be considered for anything like the nursery or children’s classes. It would start a riot. And that’s before the subject of wives asking their husbands for interpretation of scripture is even breeched! I can’t even begin to fathom the fallout of that one! “Are you saying women are stupid?”, “You know women are more spiritual than men, right?”, “But what if the men just bend scripture to their advantage?”. It would be interesting to see – but probably from a distance.

  4. @ SnapperTrx

    That’s true. It’s a put your money where your mouth is type of thing I think.

    Just don’t attend a Church that goes against things in the Scripture. It’s likely that it won’t be any Church that is large… just small ones. Alternatively, Catholic or Orthodox.

  5. lgrobins says:

    100% Agree. It can be very dangerous. What the preaching and teaching women will do though is wash their hands clean and insist its not their fault if another is comparing. Why its their heart problem, their sin. No concept at all that they can be stumbling blocks.

    Regarding what you say about telling them to ask husband and fathers about scriptural questions—well I see often enough at Dalrock men hungry to preach to any woman who comes on there. A woman will play dumb and “help me understand how this works” and the men cater to it. I don’t know why they can’t just say “men are talking here, go ask your husband”.

    Women would lose a lot of control and power (at least pseudo power) if the answer to most things was “ask your husband” and this they do not like. It always seems women are not content enough in their role as just wives and mothers (as much as they claim to be and are better than feminists because of it), they still look for opportunities to grab power. Some women seem to want other women to rather submit to them than own husband.

  6. @ lgrobins

    Regarding what you say about telling them to ask husband and fathers about scriptural questions—well I see often enough at Dalrock men hungry to preach to any woman who comes on there. A woman will play dumb and “help me understand how this works” and the men cater to it. I don’t know why they can’t just say “men are talking here, go ask your husband”.

    Yep, I’ve seen this problem too.

    In reality, very few people understand the concept that if you have any questions about how you should interact or discuss things with your spouse you should be talking to your spouse not other people.

    It’s common sense on the surface, but humans are prone to this type of sin (or if it’s not sin then it’s highly unwise actions). Gossip falls into this category. You’re going to the wrong people to talk about things.

  7. SnapperTrx says:

    I stopped going to that church a while ago for other reasons, but tried to go back to the men’s group. Unfortunately the church leadership placed severe restrictions on both men’s and women’s groups which renders both useless. They are both practically just another night of church, with little focus on men or women, respectively. We have been attending a very small church (sanctuary + kitchen is the whole church, probably 15 people on a good Sunday night, though I believe they have more during morning service), but even they are kind of if-y sometimes. They used to let one of the women get up and deliver the service, and I sword I would not attend on those evenings, but they haven’t done that in more than a year. It is extremely difficult to find a church who would even entertain the thought, much less choose to put it into action.

  8. Dragonfly says:

    However, it should not be assumed that supposedly something “better” in someone else’s relationship is the “RIGHT” thing for your relationship.

    I agree with you Deepstrength, I’ve mostly only seen examples (thinking of blogs I’ve read) of women claiming that the something “better,” not in their marriage but in marriage in general, is just to submit to what that particular wife’s husband wants for their marriage. If he wants her to work, then that is what she needs to do, if he wants her to stay home, then that is what she needs to do, if he wants their children to go to private or public school, she should follow his lead, or if he expresses that he wants her to home school her children, then she needs to respect his decision as the leader of the family and home school. I’ve only seen women bloggers encourage these women that any turmoil she feels inside over not liking her husband’s leadership, she should give over to God. Of course they often advise her that she can respectfully express to him her concerns with a decision, but also take it up with God and make sure she’s meeting with Him daily to have enough fuel for handling that predicament.

    There was one woman who commented on my blog that said that the only reason why I was able to respect my husband, have sex with him, and even show kindness to him was because he was “perfect.” She thought that because her husband was just “difficult” (no major sins I found out) that he didn’t “deserve” her submission or even kindness, etc. Stingray & I, and a few other commenters, were able to advise her that yes, she did still need to show him all these things simply because he was her husband. She was the only case I knew of that came to my blog & looked at our marriage and used it as an excuse to be dissatisfied with her husband (but really, she was already dissatisfied), and to not have to treat him well or submit to him. It’s not that it caused discontentment (her discontentment was already there, which is part of the problem in people who compare their marriage to others), but more that she used it as a rationalization for not doing what she was supposed to do in marriage.

    But as far as women seeing other bloggers’ relationships and becoming mad at their husbands or discontent, somehow I thought the main concern was just the opposite than you’ve stated here: several people now have exclaimed that they were worried that **husbands** would get mad at their wives when comparing them to “Elspeth, Sunshine Mary, or Dragonfly.” The thinking was that we (female bloggers or red pill wife bloggers) cause some major harm this way to marriages that aren’t doing well.

    Female bloggers were being accused of tempting the husbands to become discontent with their own wives (who are already not meeting their needs) by blogging about how to meet a husband’s needs and giving examples that are known to work for some. It was men who were being talked about as comparing their own wives to bloggers online who seemed better than what they had at home, and that this would indirectly hurt those men’s wives (and marriages). The concern I’ve seen around this has been all about men comparing, not women, fwiw. :/

    It is sad to me that so many women treat their husbands so badly, that these men are put into a situation of seeing other women (in person, at their work, or online), and wishing their wives were more like them. But that is the reality that marriages have to deal with. Men will always notice other women, especially one that treats her husband well, but the wife puts her husband in a dangerous position of temptation if she’s not meeting even his most basic needs. And for the record, I don’t think it’s wrong for husbands to feel upset about how their wives are sexually starving them, or disrespecting them every night, or shaming them constantly at home. I don’t think it’s wrong for them to see a wife that IS treating her husband well, and wish to himself that his wife wasn’t so selfish. I think it’s just the cold hard reality that his wife has created in their marriage.

    If I started treating my husband so horrible that he was going online and complaining to random strangers about being starved for sex for months, and wishing I was treating him differently, that is frankly my own fault for treating him like doo-doo. I think this is why wives have such a huge responsibility to stand by their husbands, meet their needs for respect, and be good to them, make sure they ARE having good, passionate, fulfilling sex with them, so that they make it easier for them to not have their heads turned by someone else who (in fact) *does* treat them better than their own wife does. It’s a sad situation when wives treat their husbands so poorly, starve them for sex, and then get mad that other women are out there making them look bad. But as far as the wives being hurt by it, a lot of it is actually in their own power and control in how they treat their husband, versus how a stranger treats him. If they humble themselves and admit maybe they are part of the problem, their marriages wouldn’t be stressed in that way. :/

  9. RICanuck says:

    @Deep Strength,

    don’t place too much confidence in the Catholic church. The men’s group program I am with right now, includes a lesson on how to express and share your feelings so as to be intimate with your wife. Groan!

    The is a strong tendency to regard women as more spiritual, and that men are lacking. Many Catholic men, myself included, do not regard a Catholic parish as a friendly place for Catholic husbands.

  10. donalgraeme says:

    Canuck, you are right that most Catholic parishes will be like that, sadly. A traditional parish are better. The problem is finding one nearby.

  11. feeriker says:

    Just don’t attend a Church that goes against things in the Scripture.

    Which probably will mean attending church in your own living room with you, yourself, and your Bible as the congregation (“where two or more are gathered in my name…”). Or attending church on line.

  12. @ RICanuck

    That’s unfortunate.

    However, I don’t think it’s worse than the situation(s) we have in Protestant Churches as a whole given the generalized Churchian culture.

    But unfortunately, I suppose it’s not looking good anywhere in any Western countries in general.

  13. @ feeriker

    Yep, finding a few believers who are of same mind is definitely a way to do it. Basically, a small house Church.

  14. @ Dragonfly

    Yep, husbands can also fall into a similar trap of comparison.

    I think in general in culture and in the Church from what I have seen it’s less than that of women simply because women are treated as superior and pushed to feel entitled to more. The men who truly see the blatant misandry are actually fewer and far between at least in the older generation(s) but the younger are wising up to it. So it’s more of an age split type of thing I would say.

    Very few older men actually think the way we do, and see the truth in how the culture has pervaded the Church.

  15. Dragonfly says:

    With husbands, concerning ones that complain about their situation on manosphere blogs, the fact is that they really *are* being mistreated… and their mistreatment is laughed at or completely glossed over. I think you’re right that the majority of the older generation just accept it and suffer in silence. When they read a woman’s writing that is calling wives to be better to their husbands, they often come to life, because it validates the pain and suffering they’re going through. They also are the ones that express the most gratitude for articles about how to be a good wife, because even if their own marriage isn’t able to be saved because their own wife refuses to change and be godly, they hope that the article will help someone else’s.

    The women that come to the wife blogs and express discontent, are usually hung up on control, disrespect and rebellion issues already. Seeing a good marriage should promote her to think of how she can change and start respecting or submitting to her husband, some of the articles could literally change her entire life and family if she took it in. But instead, it’s often used as validation that her husband just isn’t as perfect as someone else’s. It’s all about the person’s perception.

    And you’re right, the entitlement is just through the roof for the discontented wives. :/ One wife I had months ago complained of superficial things like “needing” him to provide date nights every week and vacations every year (I’m not kidding… these were “needs” to her). You can read my response here: http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/08/19/my-husband-isnt-being-romantic-enough/

    I sympathize with the women who are truly hurting in their marriage, but the ones like this, I try to point out what their husband is doing *right,* and try to help them understand the goal of marriage.

  16. PM says:

    A pastor has “his” specific interpretation of how Scripture is supposed to be carried out and berates men from the pulpit because they are not doing it his particular way. Hence, many wives of the husband that this pastor berates will now berate their husbands to be more like how the pastor preaches. This is simply not godly nor Scriptural.

    Are you saying that a Pastor has no right to interpret scripture for the members of his congregation and tell them how they should behave? I believe that he does. Wives berating husbands is a separate issue.

  17. Dragonfly says:

    PM, I don’t want to speak for Deepstrength, but what I gleaned from those statements was based on experience hearing only certain pastors like Mark Driscoll, who really do berate the men in their services (sometimes for almost the whole length of the service) and seem to almost misinterpret the Scripture so that he can shame them. It’s the strangest thing, because most of the men going to church are really trying to be good husbands – they aren’t the dead-beat dads or drug addict, criminal-minds he thinks he’s talking to… it’s honestly very strange and too harsh. It’d be one thing if he was harsh with everyone (still not good, we’re supposed to treat people in the church well and with gentleness), but I believe Driscoll seemed to not apply these shaming sermons to women’s sins… just men’s.

    So then after hearing things like that, the wives in the service would have unscriptural ammunition against their husbands, handed down from a faulty pastor.

    I think that’s what was trying to be said.

  18. Dragonfly says:

    “Are you saying that a Pastor has no right to interpret scripture for the members of his congregation and tell them how they should behave? I believe that he does. ”

    So basically, it’s obvious that he does, but a false prophet kind of pastor that gets things twisted, intentionally or unintentionally, does damage. We still need pastors, and we still need women that teach each other Scripture in Bible studies (I disagree with people who say otherwise), and we definitely still need women to teach children Scripture (men obviously can as well). Mothers in particular, need to teach their children Scripture on occasion when it calls for it, but it is best for the father to model the example of the spiritual leader of the home, a mother’s place shouldn’t usurp him in this, however, if he’s not a believer, then of course the duty falls to her to teach her children the Bible.

    I think sometimes people can go too far the other way on things like this, and fall into the same deception and strongholds that the other extreme (women pastoring churches) does.

  19. Elspeth says:

    The comparisons and discontent go both ways; women are the primary drivers and receivers of such things. However, men can be sucked into as well, as we all know and have no doubt witnessed.

    And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves. 1 Thess 5:12

    We are supposed to “know” the people we allow to pour into our lives.Period.

  20. @ PM

    Mainly what Dragonfly said.

    A pastor, by definition, is a poimen – shepherd of the flock.

    For example, take a look at the parable of the lost sheep. If there is a sheep missing the shepherd does not berate all of the other sheep for being lost. Instead, he goes to find the one sheep.

    The problem, which I am wording differently, is if pastors are using group generalizations in especially in a negative context to force people in their marriages to do certain things his way.

    The problem is not ‘teaching’ but using the teaching to enforce a particular standard into the autonomy of marriage.

    The authority of the husband in his marriage and families, and the authority of the Church are supposed to work together mutually as they compromise large sections of the body. When one dominates over the other there are going to be issues.

  21. @ Elspeth

    Yep, to properly minster/serve/love/respect/etc someone you need to *know* them and their *needs* first.

    That’s one of the major parts of the issues of ‘man up’ stuff in the Church in regard to Christian men. The pastors seem to be disconnected (or perhaps blind) from what is actually going on.

  22. donalgraeme says:

    Got a quick post in the works based off some thoughts arising from this post. Stay tuned.

  23. Pingback: Called Out | Donal Graeme

  24. feeriker says:

    The pastors seem to be disconnected (or perhaps blind) from what is actually going on.

    I don’t think it’s at all out of line to then ask:

    Do men who are chronically blind to or disconnected from, willfully or not, those over whom they’ve been entrusted with spiritual authority have any business whatsoever being pastors/shepherds/leaders?

  25. Looking Glass says:

    @feeriker:

    They don’t. The question answers itself. 🙂

  26. Dragonfly says:

    “The comparisons and discontent go both ways; women are the primary drivers and receivers of such things. However, men can be sucked into as well, as we all know and have no doubt witnessed.”

    I do think women are the primary drivers of comparison in relationships, and the primary drivers of their own discontentment with her husbands. Feminism, at it’s basic roots, was about women feeling discontent and letting those feelings runaway with them unmitigated, so of course, this has affected a woman’s most primary relationship, the one with her husband.

    There’s a huge difference though between what is happening with women comparing their husbands to other men, and when men compare their wives to other women (which happens far less). When women compare their husbands to someone else’s, it’s usually things that are relatively minor (how much money he makes, the romance aspect, his work schedule, frequency of date nights, ability to afford vacations, etc.)… cases of real abuse and cruelty aren’t the norm with female empowerment prevailing. Women are the ones divorcing at above 70% now, and for mostly very trivial reasons involving their discontentment. So it’s not relevant to just claim that both sexes do it, or that women are more on the “receiving” end of being compared. Women compare mostly over trivial things that make them feel minor discontentment. A lot of times, it’s that they wish their husbands were more affectionate or “cherishing” of them, but women who have commented before (and I’ve felt it too) that do have husbands who really cherish them, a large part of that being cherished is because of what that wife is doing for him (things discontent wives don’t see or maybe don’t even want to see). A cherished wife, is a wife that cherishes her husband in deed and attitude. A cherished wife respects her husband, doesn’t nag him, and let’s him be his own man – she isn’t constantly trying to change him or his beliefs. Obviously there are exceptions where a man doesn’t cherish his cherishing wife, but he then falls into the abusive or cruel category (which is a low percent for the average man). A discontent, comparing wife, that is upset over the trivial things (which is probably 90% with 10% being cases of actual abuse) more than likely has a major attitude problem at home (because of comparing, because of feeling discontent) that doesn’t make it easy for her husband *to* cherish her in the first place. It’s the whole, “if you want to be loved, then be lovely,” kind of thing. Helping a wife like this break the cycle is what’s needed in that case. And to break the cycle? It’s showing him respect, showing him kindness, and submitting to his leadership without making him feel like a failure.

    When a husband is discontent, 99% of the time his wife is *truly* not meeting one of his major needs – two of the main ones being respect or sex. I honestly don’t think men compare their wives to other women at the same rate that women do. Men usually try to make the best with what they’ve chosen, and many suffer in silence. I’ve read so many letters and accounts, comments, etc. from men detailing how their wives treat them, and it is much much worse than what wives are complaining of. It’s so out of balance, that it just doesn’t really compare, but even with all that men endure, it’s still not that often that they actually compare their wife to other women, fall in love with someone else, or want to leave her. It takes a lot for men to leave their wife (some more than others though).

    TL/DR: Most men don’t usually want another (or “better”) woman, most don’t compare in the way that women do (even when looking at porn!), they just want their own wife to change and treat him with respect or be more passionate in having sex.

  27. Dragonfly says:

    Elspeth, “know” in that verse is actually more closely translated from Greek to giving “due recognition” “acknowledgment” and “appreciation” to the people who labor among you, you are called to actually value their work. The actual Greek word is closer to “appreciation,” and it’s so that we can build them up in **encouragement.** Then it goes on to say, “esteem them very highly in love for their works’ sake. And be at peace among yourselves.”

  28. PM says:

    Deep Strength – thanks for clarifying. I’ve not encountered that at any church that I’ve attended.

    Dragonfly – I keep hearing this 70% divorced for no real reason tossed around. Where does this figure come from? I know two men who claim to be divorced for no real reason and both of them are divorced due to their own laziness and selfishness. Some women will put up with a lazy, selfish man for a lifetime, but not many.

  29. @ PM

    Divorce stats here:

    http://www.divorce-lawyer-source.com/faq/emotional/who-initiates-divorce-men-or-women.html

    Also, you can go look at government statistics on divorce since the 1960s which show the different variations of what was/is happening. If I remember correctly, the instances of wife initiated divorce are as follows:

    ~ Pre no-fault divorce was initiated by about 65% women.
    ~ During the years when no-fault divorce was implemented until the 90s it gradually rose overall up to 75%
    ~ In the 90s ’til now it hovers around the 68-72% range.

    Generally, on the associated blogs around here we just say 70% or 2/3rds as a proxy estimation.

  30. Dragonfly says:

    “I know two men who claim to be divorced for no real reason and both of them are divorced due to their own laziness and selfishness”

    PM, I’m kind of surprised you know only two! What area of the country do you live (or even different country maybe)? That’s great though! As for us, we’ve seen so many divorces in our almost 9 years of being married, it’s sad. Even our sweet repair/handyman just got divorced a couple of years ago, and it was his wife initiating… it happened right when I discovered the manosphere, and it was like watching a manosphere cliche spilled out right in front of my eyes. He had his own repair business he built up himself, bought her tons of things to spoil her (blue pill bad idea probably), new cars every few years, and right before she announced she was frivorcing him, it was Christmas and he had just spent $4,000 on new things for the kitchen and kitchen makeover. There was just no appreciation.

    His story gets more interesting actually, he had just told her that he had a plan for them to get rid of the debt they had, and it would only take 2 years, but he told her that she would need to stop spending the way she was doing so that they could achieve this goal together. He told us she hated this idea and wanted to keep spending. He believes a lot of her initiating the divorce was over her discontent with being told what to do regarding money. She ended up cheating on him with someone that made more money. He was broken emotionally for awhile, and didn’t think he’d ever get over it. But then he found a girlfriend a little older than me (lol) a few months later, and became pretty happy again. They didn’t stay together, but it seemed like the relationship helped him realize he’s still a great catch.

  31. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2016/03/10 | Free Northerner

  32. Deep Strength,

    Sorry my brother – but I had to take you to task on your position against women teaching other women the Word of God.

    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/06/08/does-the-bible-forbid-christian-woman-bloggers-from-teaching-other-women-the-bible/

  33. Clint Ohaver says:

    I got what you mean , appreciate it for posting .Woh I am happy to find this website through google. “Don’t be afraid of opposition. Remember, a kite rises against not with the wind.” by Hamilton Mabie.

  34. Jesse Grillo says:

    You saved me a lot of hassle just now. Neat post.

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