The problems with intelligent submission

I wrote previously that intelligent submission is not required, but I want to look at April’s analysis of this. Here is a list of it from her post:

“I Would Not Voluntarily Yield to My Husband’s Leadership If:

  • He was mentally ill and not in his right mind (psychotic, manic, extremely depressed, suicidal, schizophrenic, hallucinating, etc…)
  • He was on medication that was causing him not to be able to think properly or he was high or drunk.
  • He had an illness like dementia that caused him not to be in touch with reality.
  • He was truly endangering himself, me, or others. (He was doing something very foolish or reckless like asking me to get on the roof when I was 9 months pregnant or saying we shouldn’t put the babies in carseats.)
  • He was asking me to condone clear sin according to God’s Word.
  • He demanded that he had absolute authority over me and was to be my primary “lord.”
  • He was asking me to commit clear sin according to God’s Word – (idolatry, immorality, stealing, lying, hatred, greed, criminal activity, lust, unforgiveness, gossip, slander, drunkenness, using illegal drugs, having an abortion, participating in pornography, etc…)
  • He was obviously demon possessed.
  • He was involved in a major drug/alcohol/gambling/sex addiction and the addiction was in control of his life.
  • He was abusing me or our children.
  • He was leading me into a false teaching or a cult.
  • He wanted me to do or condone something illegal (unless it was to smuggle Bibles into a restricted country or something similar where the law was against sharing Christ).
  • He was involved in unrepentant adultery or other major unrepentant sin like habitual lying, a major porn addiction, etc…”

April is right in the way she presents it for her marriage. She is under her husband’s authority and clearly spells that out that she is posting with her husband’s knowledge and approval. This is the list that they have created for themselves by agreement in their marriage, under the authority of her husband.

However, application of this goes awry when attempting to apply it to other marriages. Some of the comment examples.

One.

I would add, if he is unapologetically lying. If he cant be trusted, tells lies frequently, and you are unable to discern truth because of his lies, i would be very careful about submitting to him, until you have asked God for clear understanding of the truth. I didnt know my husband was lying, but my gut kept telling me he wasnt being completely honest. I begged God for truth, and things started to become clear. It was not good.

Two.

I’ve been following this blog for a long time, and I have definitely found myself in a position outside of the Biblical submission category. Last night my husband verbally abused me and started to throw something at me[1], but stopped himself, all because I didn’t seek him out to see if he needed help moving some boxes and furniture. He said terrible things to me, which I won’t repeat here. There’s no way that I can begin to submit to him Biblically, as he did these things both to me and in front of our children. All day today he hasn’t spoken to me and acts as though nothing happened. He has yet to offer an apology.

Can anyone spot the problem?

Let’s look at what the Scriptures say:

1 Peter 3:1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and [a]respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right [b]without being frightened by any fear.

You see, the problem with applying what others have agreed to Biblically in the marriage to another marriage is that it is not necessarily Biblical.

It should be clear that the Scriptures tell wives with husbands that are disobedient to their Word should submit to them and win them with their chaste and respectful behavior and gentle and quiet spirit. However, the commenters are using April’s list of things that she agreed with her husband with in her marriage to disobey their husbands in their own marriage.

This is a good example of one of the main problems I have with so-called “intelligent submission.” It is apples to oranges because of the differences in marriages of a husband who is a Christ and and has agreed to certain things as opposed to a husband who is not a believer. Wives with unbelievers as husbands use this “intelligent submission” as a way to disobey their husbands, when the goal should be to use their behavior to win their husbands to Christ.

Instead, such wives are using disobedience as revenge for hurt and bitterness rather than taking the road that God tells them in Scripture to use their behavior to win their husbands.  There is a reason why Jesus said to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Good behavior under difficult and adverse situations is a huge witness for Christ simply because we don’t respond how others think that we will in adverse situations. A husband who is acting disobedient from the word will think it natural if a wife disobeys and lashes back at him for his bad behavior. However, what will a husband think or do if she keeps treating him kindly, with respect, and submission even when he is mean to her? That’s how God uses a wife’s behavior to win her husband.

The Father wants everyone to come to Him like the prodigal son. Righteous behavior starts with the Christian in the situation. Obedience to God’s Word is one way to do that.

This is why Christian wives need to be very careful with what they are teaching. Titus 2 also speaks to older women/wives teaching obedience to husbands to younger women/wives. It’s easy to say one thing about your marriage without understanding that it may not apply to another wife’s marriage. Unfortunately, sometimes it leads other wives in the wrong direction.

[1] Obviously, if there is a potential [dangerous] situation, a wife should get help from family, friends, and the police if necessary.

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43 Responses to The problems with intelligent submission

  1. donalgraeme says:

    When they use the word “intelligent”, what they really mean is “driven by my feelings.”

    And again, it isn’t because they are even necessarily bad, or evil. But because they are women, and it is their nature.

  2. shredifier says:

    I think Deep Strength is 100% right in his analysis of “intelligent submission”
    I personally believe that April’s list of examples of where a wife should not be in submission is a bunch of garbage…..there is not 1 husband in existence who can claim with a straight face to be able to abide by the conditions in that list 100% and 100% of the time…..this leads to the inescapable conclusion that wives can arbitrarily disobey their husbands by claiming 1 of those conditions in that list wasn’t met
    It’s just another example of wicked, rebellious women asserting their dominance and natural hatred of male authority to try and escape the bibles admonition to be under subjection…..in my opinion that list goes way too far
    Deep Strength is absolutely correct with this article in exposing the flaws inherent in April’s list
    Also if I remember correctly wives are praised for calling their husbands “lord” in 1st Peter

  3. @ donalgraeme

    When they use the word “intelligent”, what they really mean is “driven by my feelings.”

    And again, it isn’t because they are even necessarily bad, or evil. But because they are women, and it is their nature.

    True. If you explore the reasoning, it’s because they don’t want to cede control.

    Many women/wives are indeed scared or insecure if a husband/man has authority over them. Hence, they will try to grab any opportunity they can to retain control.

    “Intelligent” submission is simply one of those ways that a wife can insert as an excuse to be disobedient to retain their own autonomy. It’s simply another form of rebellion.

  4. @ shredifier

    Well, there’s nothing wrong with April’s list for her own marriage, given that her husband talked with her and agreed with the reason(s) purportedly.

    A husband does have authority to ‘create moral obligations’ in such a case. If he thinks those are good reasons for his wife to disobey him in their marriage, then they are good reasons in his marriage.

    The main problem, as I pointed out, is that other women are applying it to their marriages. These wives did not agree to such a list with their own husbands, and it is against Scripture which I showed. They are intentionally using another wife’s list — not the Scriptures — to be disobedient to their own husbands — and the Scriptures state otherwise. That’s not good.

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  6. I see what you’re saying, DS, in that April and her husband have agreed on this list. My husband and I have had a similar, though less detailed conversation, about when I should not obey him.
    The problem is another wife may find herself in the position of having a (for example) mentally ill husband where they haven’t had that conversation before, but he is no longer in his right mind.

  7. Jacob says:

    A fundamental aspect of women’s sin nature is solipsism. Evo-psyche types might say this is in order that the mother-child bond has the best possible protectorate at any given time – i.e. a woman’s self-centred instincts lead to the best survival outcomes for a vulnerable child. But solipsism is also the reason any submission list of will’s and won’t’s is doomed to fail.

    Solipsism in this context would be an instinct-induced feeling in an emotionally fluid and fluctuating environment that women might then use to form basic working assumptions about others.

    The usefulness of a list like this for the original couple depends on the personhood of both husband and wife, the relationship dynamic and the circumstances behind any listed situations. It also depends on prayer, forgiveness and grace. There are too many unknown variables for any such list to hold its integrity in a second iteration. It must fail, not least if a wife is submitting to her own husband, who has his own headship strategies and relationship techniques to manage his wife’s emotional patterns and idiosyncracies.

    Comparisons seem to only encourage discontent and rebellion. The Bible leaves the marriage rules at headship and submission, governed by love, for a reason. The details I suspect are for husband and wife to sort out between themselves. Copying another couple’s intra-marriage rules is not headship or submission, nor is it the right use of Scripture if they use Biblical language, nor does it look like evidence of a prayerful marriage. Better to pray God would formulate helpful headship strategies with a husband and helpful submission strategies with a wife that are specific to the needs of the marriage. Only God knows the relationship well enough to know how the details are to best be worked out.

  8. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Any time these revisionists put an adjective infront of the word “submission” they undercut the concept to the point of negating it. I have to ask, what else are they modifying?

  9. Robyn says:

    A wife (if she’s truly struggling with submission in definitive terms) would do better to get a list from her husband rather than another woman. Yes, we are commanded to get the ‘template’ from older women, but it’s to be tailored to each … palate. The recipe for Banana Bread is very basic, but there are thousands of ways this simple template can be modified to suit a specific taste. The key to submission is to please the palate of your OWN husband, not the palate of another, or even your own.

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  11. Submission with caveats is not submission

  12. During our small group bible study this week, the discussion was about a wife’s submission in Colossians 3:18. Husbands in the group remained largely silent but the wives posed one question after another to our pastor (which led the group).

    The questions were mainly about what Paul meant by submission. The pastor explained how husbands loving their wives in the Greek (in Colossians) was an active verb, i.e., something that husbands are commanded and must do actively. As for wives submitting to their husbands, he said in Greek it is passive — meaning it is up to the wives whether or not they should submit. It’s a choice, free will, if you like, and akin to salvation (we have a choice whether or not to accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour).

    Maybe I am being… harsh but I could almost hear the hamsterbulators whirling in the room at warp speed. There is definitely interest in this area. My wife was also taking down notes. Sigh.

    Also, it is sad that the women — wives were asking the pastor directly — and not their husbands. Am just not comfortable being in this small group.

  13. Robyn says:

    @ chokingonredpills: your wife is not submitting and is on her, “[…] hamsterbulators […]” because all you are doing is watching her “[…] taking down notes.” While you sit there and, “Sigh.”

    Stop trying to whitewash the fact that you are not leading and teaching as the head of the family (sin), with your wife’s lack of submission (sin). She wasn’t given the authority to lead, you were.

  14. @ chokingonredpills

    Like Robyn said, you need to talk to your wife afterward about things like these. Hard topic? Yes. But leadership is hard.

    Submission is not optional, but it is a choice. It’s your duty to help guide her to make the right choice.

    The problem with Ephesians 5 is that there are too many ways deceivers can “word play” with the verses to the wives there (“submit to one another,” passive voice, and whatever). When discussing headship and submission, take into account the whole Scriptures where it is mentioned such as 1 Cor 11, Col 3, Titus 2, and 1 Peter 3. All of them say the same thing: husbands are the head and wives are to submit to husbands, even unbelievers.

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  16. Robyn says:

    “Submission is not optional, but it is a choice. It’s your duty to help guide her to make the right choice.”

    Really like that.

  17. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    Intelligent submission means submitting only when he is doing everything right, or else it is time to swing the Duluth hammer and crush his headship. Likewise, if he has a healthy male libido that finds women, not just his wife beautiful and attractive, he is an adulterer in his heart which is the same as a porn addict, in that case submission need not be granted by the intelligent contentious wife, a divorce is in order, for the children’s sake you know.

    When the apostle writes in Ephesians 5:24 “wives should submit in everything to their husbands. intelligent people understand that what Paul meant was wives submit when your husband has earned it and is doing it right, the word “everything” is patriarchal hyperbole and to be taken with a grain of salt. If he is a good puppy then let him hold the leash. When a woman is intelligent in her submission she can be sure that the Word of God is blasphemed only when she feels like it. (Titus 2:5)

    It is amazing how much value God puts on this intelligence thing:
    For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”. 1 Corinthians 3:19 It is as if it is better to obey than rationalizing disobedience, but that might show a lack of intelligence and a heart captive to the gospel.

  18. Robyn says:

    OHHHH, k, that’s what I used to do to my Husband. Why is it called that? and who named it that? “intelligent submission” … There’s nothing really intelligent about moving in ignorance.

    Ok. I think I’m getting it now: “Likewise, if he has a healthy male libido that finds women, not just his wife beautiful and attractive, he is an adulterer in his heart which is the same as a porn addict, in that case submission need not be granted by the intelligent contentious wife, a divorce is in order, for the children’s sake you know.” You are speaking “tongue-in-cheek”, right?

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  20. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    @ Robyn
    You are speaking “tongue-in-cheek”, right?

    I am voicing the wisdom of this age as proclaimed from the pulpits and expounded in “christian” counseling. When it is stripped of its subterfuge and seen in the light of the Word, I can understand why someone might think it is tongue in cheek, when it is really just plain old sin and wickedness.

  21. DS:

    Thanks.

    “Submission is not optional, but it is a choice. It’s your duty to help guide her to make the right choice.”

    The pastor was asked about submission in co-ed our bible study on Colossians.
    He is the leader of the small group.
    He graduated from seminary.
    He did not lay out a disclaimer that he was sharing his opinion.
    He did not advise the wives in the small group to ask their husbands.
    He does not see it a problem for women to take on leadership roles in church.
    We live in a culture where leaders and authority figures in establishments are to be respected (sometimes unquestionably).

    These are not making my duty any easier. I am having to battle against culture, the church’s structure, my wife’s conventional wisdom as well as my blue pill habits — both acquired through years of feminist conditioning.

    But neither I am shirking from it. I need wisdom and shrewdness to navigate around these treacherous waters without ruffling feathers further.

  22. Elspeth says:

    There comes a point when you have to think. Christianity is not a brain dead religion, nor does it expect its women to be brain dead creatures. One can be a strong proponent of radical submission (which I am) and still understand that real life calls for real solutions -which in no way contradict Scripture- without that being the same as offering “caveats”.

    This was about the Sabbath of course, but I was immediately reminded of the exchange Jesus had with the Pharisees concerning the disciples plucking grain on the Sabbath and David eating the show bread which was not lawful for him to eat Jesus says: f you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,” you would have not condemned the guiltless.

    April spends a lot of time imploring wives to submit to, respect, and follow their husband’s leadership. This zeal for condemning someone who is guiltless (an ally even!) is counter productive.There are occasions when I’ve felt she was a little soft on the subject myself, but her overarching theme certainly trends towards counsel which serves to help wives be more submissive not less. Perfectly perfect submission does not exist, and God has given no man absolute power and authority over another. He will not share the throne.

    I can only assume that no one who has commented here is related to or in close relationship with a person suffering from schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder (bipolar gets worse with age) or some other neurological chemical imbalance. If so, you’d know that blind submission in such a situation is damaging to all involved. To the husband most of all.

    What if the husband walks in the door one day and -despite all his church’s teaching to the contrary- announces that based on the Bible he has a right to take another wife, has done so, and that his wife has to fall in line with it? No, that was not hypothetical.

    There are a few things which I disagree with PW on her list. What is the standard for “false teaching?” Is it the wife or the church which the husband led them to attend? Who determines if a husband’s behavior is due to demon possession? There are husbands involved in all kinds of sin yet never expect -nor even WANT- their wives to be a part of it. 1 Peter 3 answers well how a wife is to handle those situations. In such case, she should absolutely and prayerfully submit to him.

    However, never is a wife supposed to act as if her husband is going to stand in her stead on judgment day. What a foolish gamble that would be, given that the Bible is -quiet as it is kept- full of clear examples that women, including wives, are spiritual agents responsible for their actions.

    The problem I see here is that when hyper-focused on one subject to the exclusion of the totality of the spiritual life, arguments become ridiculous, caricature-ish, even. The whole life, the whole person, the family unit, and eternal realities fade into the background of this one thing.

    The fact that the majority of marriages will not suffer under such big and devastating issues is no reason to pretend as if no marriages do and that the way submission looks for me in the context of a healthy marriage with a dominant husband of sound mind will look the same way in the marriage of a woman married to an unfaithful, mentally ill husband or even a husband without the intestinal fortitude to give his wife something to submit to.

    Be sober [well balanced and self-disciplined], be alert and cautious at all times. That enemy of yours, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion [fiercely hungry], seeking someone to devour.
    1 Peter 5:8 (AMP)

  23. @ Elspeth

    The problem, as I’ve said before, isn’t guidelines.

    April and her husband making guidelines for themselves are fine, given that her husband has agreed to them. The problem is when other wives use said guidelines and impose them on their own husbands.

    A Christian wife with a husband who is following Christ is different than a Christian wife with a husband who is not following Christ.

    With a Christ-following husband’s a wife can reasonably expect to bring up any potentially sinful situation to her husband and reasonably expect that her husband will acknowledge the advice from his wife as a helpmeet.

    With a non-Christ-following husband’s wife she should follow 1 Peter 3 to the letter. The important part is chaste and respectful behavior and a gentle and quiet spirit to win her husband to Christ. Sure, if he asks her to do something blatantly sinful (e.g. the Scripture or law of the nation says not to do it) then she shouldn’t do it. If she’s unsure she should speak with godly counsel. However, this does not negate being respectful and chaste and gentle and quiet.

    It’s pretty obvious from the comments that said wives are NOT being respectful and chaste in their behavior or gentle and quiet. They are denying their husbands obedience because they FEEL they should not live under a husband who sins. The husbands aren’t even asking them to sin. That’s the important point here. They’re not even being asked to sin. They’re not obeying because their husband is in sin.

    That is exactly opposite of what 1 Peter 3 says.

  24. What if the husband walks in the door one day and -despite all his church’s teaching to the contrary- announces that based on the Bible he has a right to take another wife, has done so, and that his wife has to fall in line with it?

    Well, then we can know that he has studied the Scriptures. I suppose we can also know that his church teaches in opposition to the Word of God.

  25. Elspeth says:

    @ DS:

    I did not follow the trajectory of the comments at April’s. Only read the -very long- post. If it is as you say, then I concede your point on that particular matter.

    Mr Norseman:

    I am not particularly interested in a debate about the Biblical position on polygyny (we have had plenty of those and I don’t mean online). I will however say this:

    Among a cohort of men who firstly, believe that maybe 1 woman in 1000 is even worthy of marriage to begin with and secondly, are specifically concerned for the well being of their fellow Christian brothers and young men in particular, the notion that a man should make odds for those men even more daunting by multiplying wives for himself strikes me as particularly selfish and unloving.

    And no, I don’t have a horse in this race. My man says that one woman (even when you have a good one) is more than enough to deal with.

  26. feeriker says:

    Well, then we can know that he has studied the Scriptures. I suppose we can also know that his church teaches in opposition to the Word of God.

    That scenario Elspeth suggests would probably constitute the ultimate “acid test” for Christian wifely submission (i.e., submitting and being led to the last place you would ever want to go in your worst nightmares, despite the fact that the command, while horrendously unpleasant, is in no way sinful). It probably also goes without saying that 99.999 percent of wives would fail it.

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  28. @ Elspeth

    Among a cohort of men who firstly, believe that maybe 1 woman in 1000 is even worthy of marriage to begin with and secondly, are specifically concerned for the well being of their fellow Christian brothers and young men in particular, the notion that a man should make odds for those men even more daunting by multiplying wives for himself strikes me as particularly selfish and unloving.

    And no, I don’t have a horse in this race. My man says that one woman (even when you have a good one) is more than enough to deal with.

    My main concern was presenting it like a some debased and unfathomable sin. What God has declared clean, ye shall not call common.

    Secondly, with no ill will towards you, no woman is worthy of marriage. If a man waits until he finds a worthy woman, he will never marry (and that is acceptable).

    Your statement of what your husband says contradicts your prior argument.

    One woman is more than enough to deal with. But you marry a woman not because she is worthy, but in order to perfect her, and to perfect yourself by Christ working through you. Many men will choose not to shoulder the burden of marriage. Marriage, no matter how enjoyable it may sometime be, is ultimately a burden and a cross.

    The man on whom is laid doubly the cross of marriage is not more selfish, but less selfish for it. To whom much is given, from him much is demanded. He must pour himself out doubly.

  29. @ feeriker

    Close. The ultimate test is harder, and graciously rare:

    “Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.”

    “Yet for your sake we are killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

  30. Jacob says:

    @ Elspeth

    You’re proving the very point DS is making. The fact that there are exceptions doesn’t mean the rule shouldn’t be reinforced whenever exceptions are proposed. The purpose of the rule is to be a rule, not to be splayed out until it accommodates every exception. It sounds like you’re wanting to take the responsibility out of a husband’s hands when a wife believes he is using headship in a way that isn’t loving. Of course there may be mitigating circumstances, but the need for God’s mercy is not an argument against the reinforcement of the rule.

    This is well beneath your reputation for sensible Christian commentary:

    Among a cohort of men who firstly, believe that maybe 1 woman in 1000 is even worthy of marriage to begin with and secondly, are specifically concerned for the well being of their fellow Christian brothers and young men in particular, the notion that a man should make odds for those men even more daunting by multiplying wives for himself strikes me as particularly selfish and unloving.

  31. Jacob says:

    continued….

    God’s mercy need not be mentioned every time there’s a discussion about something women find uncomfortable. Knowledge of His mercy is assumed when Christian men who are serious about their faith discuss marriage. We shouldn’t put too much store in words. The state of the heart is what matters. The Christian man is here because he wants to know how to love women as Jesus loves him. Christian men differ from secular men, if ever it needs a reminder, because they know deep in their hearts following Jesus is all about love. It’s not as if they become Christian and all of sudden forget the central tenet of their faith whenever headship is being discussed. Christian women who visit these blogs would do well to remember that.

  32. Cane Caldo says:

    @Robyn

    Stop trying to whitewash the fact that you are not leading and teaching as the head of the family (sin), with your wife’s lack of submission (sin). She wasn’t given the authority to lead, you were.

    Shut up. Do you know CoRP? Do you know his wife? Do you know his church? Are you able to support him as he takes on his entire–and entirely silent–church? Do you know what it is to lead a wife, or how it is done? Are you a fellow man and husband that you can inspire and encourage him with rebuke? Where are your balls?

    You don’t have any, so stop grasping at CoRP’s.

  33. Lost Patrol says:

    @chokingonredpills

    “These are not making my duty any easier. I am having to battle against culture, the church’s structure, my wife’s conventional wisdom as well as my blue pill habits — both acquired through years of feminist conditioning.

    But neither I am shirking from it. I need wisdom and shrewdness to navigate around these treacherous waters without ruffling feathers further.”

    I get this 100%. I’m still swanning around the manosphere finding places where these concepts can be discussed openly. This is obviously a good place, and I recognize many stalwart names from multiple threads that have well advised me from afar. I have seen your nom de plume here and there so imagine our paths are not dissimilar in this regard. I’ll summarize my own situation, recognizing everyone has different specifics to cope with.

    I love the elders at my church. Men who are very clearly not ashamed of the Gospel in their daily lives. The senior pastor considers himself a fellow elder, but he delivers the sermons (very sound expository stuff from the scriptures – it’s great). However, they are just men, he is just a man. I have on occasion said to my wife and/or my sons that he does not know everything. I’ve said things like “I love that guy. He knows more about the Bible than I’ll live long enough to know, but I think he was wrong about (whatever it was); and here’s why I say that.”

    This is just for my family. All of them are old enough to choose their own path, and only God saves a soul or a life; but I don’t let anything go unremarked that I feel is questionable.

    On some things I directly address the pastor, feminization of the church among them. I do not sway him, nor does he dissuade me from having a questioning attitude (yet – I guess I should say). I suppose feathers were ruffled, and the relationship has changed; but obviously no one has brought up these matters. It must be making him think. I’m using the words of Peter and Paul from the Bible, I’m using the analysis and ideas of guys in the manosphere, I’m using my own testimony and observations from years on this planet. After all, the Apostle Paul praised the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he was saying was true.

    I encourage you to stay the course, by God’s all-encompassing Grace. You are not the only guy out there fighting these battles.

    Soli Deo Gloria

  34. feeriker says:

    On some things I directly address the pastor, feminization of the church among them. I do not sway him, nor does he dissuade me from having a questioning attitude (yet – I guess I should say). I suppose feathers were ruffled, and the relationship has changed; but obviously no one has brought up these matters. It must be making him think. I’m using the words of Peter and Paul from the Bible, I’m using the analysis and ideas of guys in the manosphere, I’m using my own testimony and observations from years on this planet. After all, the Apostle Paul praised the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he was saying was true.

    Again, it’s tragic that “feathers are ruffled” and relationships are altered when one dares to voice the plain meaning of Scripture that is uncomfortable to Modernist ears, however Christian and Scripturally faithfully they consider themselves to be.

    I absolutely echo your advice to “stay the course” as applying to everyone here. It won’t be a pleasant battle, but it ill ultimately be a winning one.

  35. Cane Caldo: Thanks.

    Lost Patrol: Thanks for the encouragement and sharing. You’ve given me loads to think about. I am careful about not being rebellious when it comes to dealing with an… .authority.

  36. Lost Patrol says:

    @CoRP

    I understand that too, and do not directly challenge. Instead I pose questions to… authority.

    When it comes to our families we have authority also. God given authority. Most of what we see and hear seems designed to undermine it, but it comes from an unassailable place.

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  39. Isabelle says:

    “Intelligent submission” means I will submit IF

    Submitting IF is no submission anymore actually.
    The IF is added to the truth ..and all that is added comes from the devil.

    Ok , let’s go : a believer will submit to Christ only IF

    Oh yeah , but Christ ( divine) is perfect and man (human) is not perfect.
    What a smart excuse ! So , men are not perfect but women are ?
    Aren’t women human too ?

    Who is that April who allows herself to judge men like that ?
    And whose gender guided the other into sin first ?
    The woman was deceived . NOT the man.

    Who do women think they are today ? Who are they to judge men that way ?

    Amazing how post modern preachers love repeating that parrots that a woman ought not to follow her husband into sin , wilfully (God only knows ) forgetting that it is a man who followed his own woman into sin in Eden !

    No April , I will submit IF is definitely not submission .
    The first three points are irrelevant since in those particular cases , no one can lead anything !

    I will conclude with this passage truer than ever :

    ” I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare. ”

    Ecclesiastes 7 verse 26

    How do women ensnare men today ? With that victimhood spirit which is a real trap.

  40. Isabelle says:

    To go further with that ” April” .
    Let’s take a look at the heresy she wrote :

    ” There is a world of difference between a wife voluntarily making herself available sexually to her husband and a husband forcing himself on his wife ”

    Her teaching is terribly fraudulent in so far as she DECEIVES wives into believing that they have a right over their own body and as such can do whatever they want with it.
    She WILFULLY avoids the key passage that clearly states that a husband has AUTHORITY over her wife’s body and she has NONE.

    Everyone here will agree that you can only give or lend what belongs to you , right ?
    So , if my body does not belong to me anymore , HOW can I give it or not give it ?
    HOW can i make myself “available” since I have no right over my body ? Since I am HIS well as portrayed so beautifully in Proverbs 5 verse 18

    I am HIS well where he has a RIGHT to come and drink as the LORD says (not that April , not those horrible preachers I heard on YT ) in his goodness for his sons , in his wisdom regarding sexual urges.

    Oh how good the Lord to his sons ! But how horrible and sneaky so called preachers and so called “submissive” wives to men !

    The Lord says DRINK the waters that flow from your own well . prov 5 v 18

    You drink when you are thirsty or you drink when someone tells you to drink ?

    How come so many Christians can buy into the Satanic (radical feminist) lie of “marital rape” ?
    How is this possible ?

    The Bible so easily says that the man just has to come to his wife and be quenched . So easy.
    How beautiful indeed ! What a greeat honour to be his well when you know how precious cisterns were back then in Israel !

    Moreover , let’s notice that if she says that a man must “coerce” his wife for sex , she clearly condones wifely rebellion albeit she is supposed to teach submission …

    What a nonsense anyway ! Do you coerce someone to give you what is yours ???
    You just take what is yours by using the authority you have over the thing that you own.
    Anybody does that !
    Have you ever seen a man asking for permission from his neighbour to enter his own house or drive his own car ?
    Hiw wife’s body is his own well !!!

    April teaches serious heresy that goes so very hard against the Bible .
    Consent is required for NOT having sex , not for having sex since the rule of marriage is sex per 1 Co 7 v 5 .
    The Bible cannot make it clearer .

    If consent was required for sex , it would mean that both spouses had a right over their own body and thus had a free will , which is a LIE plain and simple.

    April’s fraudulent teachings are another example of a bitter female manipulation masquearading as submission.

  41. Pingback: If you’re spiritually immature, you should expect your wife won’t submit | Christianity and masculinity

  42. Pingback: What does it mean to teach? | Christianity and masculinity

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